....and nothing achieved
Straight back to the positions both sides had before the slaughter , with each blaming the other and both claiming victory .
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....and nothing achieved
Straight back to the positions both sides had before the slaughter , with each blaming the other and both claiming victory .
...and perfect timing: 2 days before the new Yank Boss takes over, "cease fire" is called.
I guess each side wanted to get their licks in before it drew a frown from Washington.
A small question:
Were cluster bombs used in Gaza?
The blogosphere is divided about 50-50 on that question. The major media says: "No" (so far). I haven't found any pics/video of them being used.
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video...cking.news.cnn
This video says much about the situation to my opinion...
The only purpose served is that good people, thousands of them, will turn into fanatics due to the actions of two very immoral governments.
The quota of civilians was reached and its a technical timeout for adverts...
I am amazed
Not that I'm aware of, but Hamas claims Israel used white phosphorous on one occasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
No, they did, on the UN Building. What utter Bastards the Israelis have been. Won't let any medicine in, and they bomb the stuff that's already there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenring
Rather ironic considering that Hamas also fired white phosphorous shells. At any rate, white phosphorous is legal if used as a screening tool - and as of yet, I don't think that there is any reliable evidence that it was or was not used to screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenring
I know the general status on phosphorous and DIME weapons, but I haven't heard much of cluster bombs... But I suppose we would know it if they did use them, as the sound they make is very distinctive, and the journalists were within hearing range of Gaza, and Gilbert and Fosse would've heard them from Shifa...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenring
They dropped a truckload of cluster bombs on Lebanon(IIRC, almost every cluster bomb used was fired during that last day) during the last 12 hours before the ceasefire there, it'll be interesting to find out if they did the same thing this time.... And if they didn't, then why they chose not to do it this time.
do you want to dig out a link for that champ? i.e. some reputable news source that confirms that cluster munitions were in fact dropped on the UN building.Quote:
Originally Posted by Che Roriniho
p.s. if it turned out that the israelies had not, would that alter your opinion that they had been utter bastards?
You misunderstand him - he was talking about the use of white phosphorous, not the use of cluster munitions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
Can someone explain to me what was gained out of this invasion?
From haaretz.com:Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
Hmmmmmm.......Quote:
The ground invasion was preceded by large-scale artillery shelling from around 4 P.M., intended to "soften" the targets as artillery batteries deployed along the Strip in recent days began bombarding Hamas targets and open areas near the border. Hundreds of shells were fired, including cluster bombs aimed at open areas.
Basically nothing, except the reason for more suicide bombings. Well done Israel, you really are quite Stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
Well it screwed Fatah didn't it , that must have been the intention so it counts as a gain for the Israeli government doesn't it .Quote:
Can someone explain to me what was gained out of this invasion?
Hore those cluster munitions your post refers to is the bombardment of the bulldozed areas next to the prison fence to clear any possible landmines so it doesn't count on the list of war crimes commited during this pointless little middle eastern episode .
well,
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...emdichtbij.jpg
But I couldn't care less really.
I'm amazed by the number of Gazans who died in this 22 day war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
And all this war for what? Has Hamas been weakened?
I'm amazed by the fairly good number of Hamas militants that were killed. Good on Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guildenstern
*yawn*
Ah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
But what's the point in clearing land mines by dropping in a bunch of new land mines?
Uhm..... And just how many was that, really? A hundred? "Wow".Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
As I pointed out on the first page of the first thread, which was relatively close to the beginning of the conflict, even Hamas acknowledged that more than this amount of militants had died.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
There are roughly 1200 confirmed kills(but this will undoubtedly rise). Roughly 400 of those are children alone. Then add in the women. Then add in the old people. Then add in the civilian male population. That doesn't leave many left for Hamas fighters, now does it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
And as an added bonus, how many thousands new recruits do you think they'll get because of this? Win-win for Hamas. A resounding defeat for Israel and the palestinian people.
Firstly, them being children does not necessarily mean that they were not Hamas fighters. Secondly, Hamas militant deaths have been estimated as between four hundred and six hundred and fifty, plus another hundred and fifty-odd police officers - which is probably a pretty good job by Israel considering the closeness with which Hamas operates around civilians.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Hard to know how many children 'are' fighters, and how many are forced/told to do things, as with child soldiers in Africa etc. --> there will certainly be many more as they grow older, having seen what Israel did...Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Estimated by who? --> there is not really any way of knowing how many Hamas fighters have died/ how many there were in the first place, certainly very few of the highest ranking Hamas officicals have been killed, and how many non-Hamas terrorists are still aroundQuote:
Hamas militant deaths have been estimated as between four hundred and six hundred and fifty, plus another hundred and fifty-odd police officers - which is probably a pretty good job by Israel
its not the civilians fault that Hamas happen to operate near to them...Quote:
considering the closeness with which Hamas operates around civilians.
:2thumbsup:
Well done Mars , you just justified dozens of bombings in Israel .:dizzy2:
Does it matter? They're trying to kill you either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy
I was tempted to provide eight or nine laughing smilies, but instead Palestinian organizations have been claiming about 650-700 of the dead as civilians, it is safe to assume that the rest are not.Quote:
Estimated by who? --> there is not really any way of knowing how many Hamas fighters have died/ how many there were in the first place, certainly very few of the highest ranking Hamas officicals have been killed, and how many non-Hamas terrorists are still around
Not in and of itself, but it does absolve the IDF of some of the blame for killing those civilians if Hamas was firing bullets, mortars, and missiles from right next to them.Quote:
its not the civilians fault that Hamas happen to operate near to them...
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/...aza/index.html
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default...=178&nid=15466
My turn. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::lau gh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: :laugh4::laugh4:
Oh dear Mars , keep up to date will you . The Isreali claims featured in that CNN story were shown to be bollox and they were still bollox even after they changed their version of events three times :coffeenews:
So you demonstrate a lack of comprehension , congratulations:2thumbsup:Quote:
My turn.
Well Mars exercise that thing in your head and see the reason exactly how you justified lots and lots of bombings in Israel .
Aye, Tribes doþ have you þere.
And how many people saw their relatives killed for no good reason? How many of these people will become militants?Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
For this to end; there needs to be around 20 years of sustained peace. Countless, pointless and un-winnable wars does nothing for each side. The countless endless cycles of threats and counter threats; violence and counter-violence is not furthering the people on either side of the conflict. Only time and a sense of progress will temper the extremes on both sides. the middle ground must feel they have something gained for their struggle to be moderate.
Both sides need to give the sticks a rest and try the carrot...
edit: on a side note i thought the title was going to be Two ceasefires ...one cup.
Ha! Does it matter! The mighty nation of Israel will simply declare war on Gaza again in a few years and kill them all!:laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
On a more serious note, the wave of suicide bombings this aburd conflict will create will help Israel in its demonisation of the Palestinians.
Uhm.... 500 dead fighters? That's a good number? Do you know how many will take up arms because of this? It's ridiculous to think that number will be counted in hundreds, it will at least be in the thousands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
And then you have the 70.000 who want to take up arms in Iran alone because of this...
No, there's no denying that this is a resounding long-term defeat by Israel. Thousands of people around the world want to take up arms against them, and they've alienated their allies even more. The only thing Israel has won by this is more enemies.
This reminded me of a political cartoon from 1983 back when I collected the funnier of such things:Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h...eCeasefire.jpg
The good old days of the civil war where they called ceasefires to let the banks open so they could get the money to pay the wages of all the different militias so they could get them back fighting again .Quote:
This reminded me of a political cartoon from 1983 back when I collected the funnier of such things:
And the resulting Israeli offensive will help Hamas in it's demonisation of Israel and justify the next round of suicide bombings. And we're back where we started.:blank2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
We are reaching new moral lows here... This is unexplored territory...The justification of killing children because some might have been forced to fight for terrorists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
...I bet some of the Jewish people in Nazi concentration camps were criminals too. Hell, some of the kids there might have stolen things or engaged in criminal activity...
...Dont lose your soul trying to justify things mate.
Is that the famous 'Hamas use civilians as human shields' thingy? Because all I see is people voluntarily running around to see what's going on. Not some Hamas people lining up 8 years old children and hidding behind them while firing at the IDF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
i saw a video of hamas doing exaclty that (lining kids up and shooting behind them) somwhere on youtube. ill try to find it if i can....Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
~:rolleyes:
Recriminations are, no doubt, going to keep these threads full of colourful metaphor for some time, but maybe there is room for some debate on what happens next?
There is a new administration about to take office in the United States. Several posters have previously trumpeted the "interests" of the US as reason for the recent unthinking and uncritical stance on Israeli actions.
Given the intellectual abilities of many of our members, perhaps we can try and explore in a constructive way what might be the subtleties of an Obama approach to this most destructive of adventures by Israel?
This opinion piece from Haaretz gives a thoughtful starting point. What are the US interests in the Levant? Would it actually be useful for a hard-liner like Netanyahu to win the coming elections, on the basis that there is naught worse than a mediocre lame-duck like Olmert to command the trust of Israelis when making peace?
Obama has two choices. First, he can let the Israelis bleed and kill all the way to an ostracized apartheid state, observing from the sidelines as Israel endangers peace in the Middle East and undermines his country's interests, just as George Marshall predicted. The second option is to stand at Israel's side in its struggle to achieve peace and maintain its Jewish and moral character en route to regional acceptance, which has been offered by 22 Arab states. Or in other words, to finish Truman's work
i expected as much from haaretz....
Firstly, some civilians even volunteer to be used this way. Secondly, in the modern age, using a human shield doesn't necessarily mean walking behind them - it can mean hiding weapons or fighters in their basements or schools, or firing from the middle of crowds or from among apartment buildings which are full, videos of which I have shown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
If someone is shooting at you, you shoot back. And since you have already violated Godwin's Law, allow me to use the example of underage children in the Volkssturm. The Soviets, in my opinion, had every right to shoot at them. You obviously disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by rasoforos
That relates? Care to make a logical explanation as to how?Quote:
...I bet some of the Jewish people in Nazi concentration camps were criminals too. Hell, some of the kids there might have stolen things or engaged in criminal activity...
That is still five hundred dead Hamas militants, and the fact is that they're dead. They may be replaced, but they're not getting up.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Isn't that what people say after every war Israel is involved in? But really, I think it is quite naive to believe that Israel will just sit there through so many bombardments. Did they go too far? Perhaps. Do I blame them? Not in the slightest.Quote:
Do you know how many will take up arms because of this? It's ridiculous to think that number will be counted in hundreds, it will at least be in the thousands.
...you completely missed the point. Then again, a lot of others probably did as well, so perhaps that was my fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
At the end of the day, it all boils down to who supports a two-state solution and who does not. Hamas does not support a two-state solution, never has and never will. They would rather die themselves then allow the Israelis to live there. Note the use of the term Hamas, not Palestinian. Israel does not do itself any service by continuing to conflate the two, nor does the U.S.
We need to provide viable alternatives to the Palestian people. Be it Fatah or other leadership within the Palestinian community, we have to find a way to get the Palestinians to choose leadership other than Hamas.
Has anybody ever seen any numbers on the number of Palestinians that would accept a two-state solution? Is there a political will to be sought? At the end of the day, if Palestinians would rather die killing Israelis then live alongside them, we're all in a holding pattern.
As for the issues that have always been the last 5%, rather than trying to split hairs, why don't they give one hair to one side and one hair to the other? Why not allow for Right of Return, but Jerusalem stays as part of Israel?
Didn't you look at videos of the IDF doing exactly that too ?:dizzy2:Quote:
saw a video of hamas doing exaclty that
Then read Arutz Sheva instead if you don't like thinking .Quote:
i expected as much from haaretz....
Interesting piece BG , it does raise the question of what exactly are Americas (or any other countries) interests in Israel ?
Pretty much bugger all really as it stands , rather like an illegitimate spoilt child who is both a drain and an embarrassment yet who misguided charity and warped sense of responsibility deems worth yet another chance to prove that it can grow up and stop its petulant tantrums .
As another piece in that paper today (and several other Israeli papers) mention it is time for a change , the constant round of military action and refusal to meaningfully talk is achieving nothing and will never achieve anything apart from moreof the same . Add to that the Saudis saying that their renewed offer of peace isn't going to be an offer that remains open indefinately unless it is acted upon by Israel .
Don I notice you are refering to Hamas as a single entity that is opposed to a two state solution , that isn't true anymore than describing Fatah as a single entity that is in favour of a two state solution .
Really ? So if an armed robber starts shooting at the police from a crowded bank the police should just shoot back .Quote:
If someone is shooting at you, you shoot back.
In the only cases I can find of the IDF conclusively being proven to use human shields (which the Israeli Supreme Court defined as clearly illegal), the commanders in question were punished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
You mean that those who were caught on video with incontravertable evidence in the period after many court cases finally led to a supreme court ruling get an official reprimand .Quote:
In the only cases I can find of the IDF conclusively being proven to use human shields (which the Israeli Supreme Court defined as clearly illegal), the commanders in question were punished.
Have you seen this years ones from the West Bank ? them official reprimands are a real deterrent ain't they :yes:
Well yes, can't be of much use when you are dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
It's so very very predictable Israel is going to pull out and Hamas claims victory, and they will be able to sell it people want to believe, round # comming up.
Unfortunately I have to agree with you...to a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
If an Israeli soldier finds him or herself looking down the barrel of an AK-47 held by a child that has been told all his life that the Israelis are evil monsters that have to be exterminated then it's a situation of kill or be killed. It's not a pretty picture but that's life sometimes.
But as far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong) most of the children that died were killed by bombs or artillery shells. How can a pilot see from a cockpit that the child was a Hamas fighter? He can't. It's just wrong to kill children just because some might have been mislead to fire a gun for Hamas in a propaganda video.
As for American policy I think that, from a strictly pragmatical point of view, Israel receives too much support. They are a small state with no resources and that is hated by all the states in the region (or at least the people of those states). They are alienating, much more valuable, potential allies as well giving many governments in the region a way to distract their own people from their lack of freedom and democracy. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying let Israel burn, but the US could easily Israel to accept just about any peace plan by threatening to cut off the aid it gives.
The difference is that IDF commanders in the field sometimes use human shields in direct violation of the orders they are given by their commanders. Hamas, on the other hand, constantly uses human shields in complete obedience to the orders they are given by their commanders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
This is probably true. I wasn't saying that it was right to kill children in this scenario, simply that the fact that children and militants are not mutually exclusive. However, I don't think that most of the dead children, militants or otherwise, were specifically targeted. This leads back to the human shield argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by julius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Are there operators within Hamas that would accept a two-state solution, given the chance? Probably. Do they hold sufficient autonomy and power to mold Hamas in a direction that would at large accept a two-state solution? Probably not. I'm not saying 'every Hamas member', I'm speaking of the results of the organization as a whole.
Honestly, I don't know why Israel and the U.S. don't go into the West Bank, talk to some of the political leaders and explain to them "Want to be the Nasser of Palestine? We'll build your nation for you, here are the details... just get your people to quit bombing cafes and lobbing rockets and we'll do it". In fact, when you consider Carter's and Clinton's stances, I imagine we probably have. So I have to assume that nobody with the political will to actually achieve such a goal has the desire to. And I don't know that 'we' can change that. That's a decision the Palestians are making for themselves.
What were Israels stated aims at the start of the operation Frag ?Quote:
It's so very very predictable Israel is going to pull out and Hamas claims victory, and they will be able to sell it people want to believe, round # comming up.
Before Israel announced the ceasefire (or indeed after it) which of those aims had been achieved ? Was it none , none , none or none ?
Who is killing who then? If you can convince a retard that jumping into the river mid-winter is a great idea then you are guilty when he freezes to death. Israel just can not do nothing, everybody should be able to at least understand that.Quote:
Originally Posted by julius_caesar_the_first
I daresay the issue is rather that they do rather too much of all the wrong things and little if none of the good things...
"A man who sleeps in rain cannot fault the gods for catching a cold" is a chestnut that applies to Tel Aviv as well.
The Likud party (not in power right now, I know) explicitly opposes Palestinian statehood and approves the colonisation of the west bank and rejected the withdrawal from Gaza by Sharon. I don't know the other parties' official positions of these, but probably are more ambiguous or simply not outspoken about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Till Israel dismantles their settlements, ie return to the 1967 borders with the Palestinians, I can't "support Israel" or believe their lip service statements to long term peace, no matter how much I loathe Hamas. How can you honestly expect a stable state to emerge on a territory dotted with hostile settlements?
You'll never catch me saying that Israel has been blameless in all of this. You're absolutely right, the settlements are an unavoidable obstruction to a path forward. That being said, Israel has proven repeatedly that given the right motivational prompting, they'll have them down in months if not weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenring
Yes, you're right, there are hard-liners in Israel. But the last time I checked, there was something like 80+% support in Israel for a sovereign, autonomous Palestinian state. There is the political will to make the two-state solution work, even if it means dismantling settlements. Some of the harder issues might start dragging that number down, things like right of return, water rights, arms agreements, the status of Jerusalem, etc.
I have no doubt that if President Obama went to Israel (assuming Likkud wasn't in power at the time) and saidthen the Israelis would move heaven and earth (and a :daisy:load of settlements) to make that happen.Quote:
okay, here's the deal... we're going back to 1967, Palestinians that can provide proof of ownership will be recognized but there will not be a blanket 'right of return', Jerusalem will be jointly mandated city, with access available to all, in all sites. In exchange, Palestine will recognize Israel's right to exist, will agree to a peace treaty and will work with the IDF to end cross-border raids and terrorism.
I do not have anywhere near the same confidence level with the Palestinians. I met a very intelligent, kind, reflective Palestinian in Stockholm last fall. He made some excellent arguments about the Palestinians right to exist, about the need for a stable state to check Islamic fundamentalism, which is apparently growing rampantly among the camps, which he bemoaned since traditionally, the Palestinians were viewed as being level-headed and moderate in the Arab world (so said he, not me). But when I posed the question to him of a two-state solution, his style changed. He was still polite, but his statements seemed an attempt to obfuscate. On the right of Israel to exist, he said "all people have a right to live". I myself could drive a truck through that statement, so I continued to press. At the end of the day, the guy, who was intelligent, rational and understood the ramifications of what he was saying, could not bring himself to say he believed in a right of existence for an Israeli state. I laud him on his honesty, but I ask myself... if this is where their most moderate, most tolerant viewpoints BEGIN.... can there ever be peace?
I do not believe the Palestinians, as a people, believe in a two state solution. I've posted articles before that Tribesman will disavow, but they come from the founding charters of Hizbollah and Hamas. They don't just deny the right of Israel as a nation to exist, they deny the right of non-muslims as individual people to exist, and these are the people the Palestinians chose to lead them. I know the majority of the Islamic world don't share that view, at least I hope they don't, but I don't see any sort of resistance to such viewpoints when espoused, and in that, I see a tolerance of intolerance that is very telling about future prospects for peace.
I remain unconvinced by arguments based on willingness to take dramatic "wartime" declarations at a face value, doubly so given the Middle Eastern tradition of poetic exaggeration in public rhetoric.
They have one response when the terrorists are palestinians, and they have another one when the terrorists are jews. If they used the same method they use against the jewish terrorists against Hamas, they might actually accomplish something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Of course I shall disavow that , unless you also mention that it is taken from Islamic scripture and both Jewish and Christian scripture also say the same about people who follow the wrong faith at the end of times (or mormons and scientologists for that matter) .Quote:
I've posted articles before that Tribesman will disavow, but they come from the founding charters of Hizbollah and Hamas. They don't just deny the right of Israel as a nation to exist, they deny the right of non-muslims as individual people to exist
Actually they havn't Don ,they have shown that they will pull out of settlements if they are too expensive to maintain .Quote:
That being said, Israel has proven repeatedly that given the right motivational prompting, they'll have them down in months if not weeks.
Now there might be some motivational prompting that can be applied , like taking away all grants dollar for dollar your government gives Israel for every dollar Israel spends on the illegal settlements . Also you could put a blanket ban on the "charity" drives you have over in the US where people can make Aliyah by proxy by funding the illegal settlemants (or in the case of the nuttier christians give money to recreate Israel so they can become Christians at the end of the world).
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. If you have children trying to kill you by firing bullets at you/strapping bombs to themselves and getting on busses/launching missiles at you, as much as it is distasteful, you can't simply turn cheek because they may or may not be being forced to fight or you yourself will die. You have to kill them first. It's your only sane option. Are you really saying that on a field of battle soldiers should have to aim away from enemy soldiers who appear to be underage?Quote:
Originally Posted by rasoforos
As for all of those who are saying this Israeli offensive is only justification for more Palestinians to turn to terrorism, I have another suggestion: perhaps it's justification for Palestinians to turn on their own corrupt leadership and oust them from power because of this destruction that they regularly invite upon their own people. You all make it sound like the only option that Palestinians have is to become murderers. That's not true.
Not that much in a hurry these christians and jews. Classical islamphilist response by the way, do not forget to mention that christians once burned witches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Excellent Don, have you been keeping up to date? Indeed have you read anything about Hamas recently? If so then you would know that some changes have occured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Israel is utterly to shoulder the blame for this cock up, they pull out of Gaza and biuld fortress settlements in the Westbank! They steal more land! They biuld a giant wall and create a concentration camp! They shoot civilians in the street! They deny pregnant Palestinian women the right to medical treatment, in effect murdering babies!
How much evil will it take fro you Americans to kick these racist nutters out of power? You could do it in a second, the only reason Israel exists is because of you guys.
Israel has proven the U.S to be a lie.
So you just ignored the Reuters link I posted in the last thread about Hamas still wanting to destroy Israel?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
What link?Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
I remember you posting a lot of questionable links, and what am I to expect from a PoS outlet like Reuters? As if those guys give damn about the truth past the what their paymasters want, cover up and slander of the Palestinians is a well known trick of the Western Corporate Media, Reuters included.
But still, if you would point me to what you posted, I will read.
It seems every link that has anything positive about Israelis or negative about Palestinians is biased. How convenient!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
Indeed, it is, tell me Strike had you ever heard the Western Media talk about the plans D? Or how about the time when it looked like sanctioned suicide bombings would be off the table, until the Israelis decided that would be an awful thing? Have you read about Israeli torture of Palestinian protesters, breaking limbs with rocks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Indeed, did you even know that Israel is biult upon the ashes of Palestine?!
Shocking I know...
Why do you care so much? There are more deserving people. Like people who are actually being opposed instead of just perpetuating a cycle of violence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
The Palestinians are not just being "opposed" Strike, they have been on the recieving end of what is officially termed genocide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Why do I care so much?
Because not enough people do, too many educated people have simply become recorders for the sound bites of the brokers of power in the modern world, and too many have lapped up the lies about Palestine.
It is unjust.
Here are some links about our "liberal" media.
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=AJcxj_...ext=1&index=23
http://www.medialens.org/
Come on Bopa, it may be bad but its not Genocide. Try to see both sides of an issue too, before you start bashing us for blindness.
Genocide? Pah. They are fighting a war. One in which the other is better equipped and better trained. Simply because they are horrible at it does not mean they are victims of genocide.
Really ?Quote:
Not that much in a hurry these christians and jews.
Do you remember a certain poster here from London whose little signature called for the "end of time now !!!!!!!" ?
Which religion was he ?
Have you read any of the christian zionist stuff ?
How about those radical fundamentalists who want to (and attempted to ) rebuild the temple to bring the rapture ?
Then you have the fruitcakes like Koresh who wanted lots of guns for the upcoming armageddon .
How about Palins old pastor who was preparing for the imminent hordes who would flee to Alaska for salvation , not to mention all the kooks during the election claiming Obama was from the book of revelation though they were really funny as they must have some really strange translation of scripture to be "quoting" what they quoted ?
(the funniest of those biblical "quotes" must have been the one from down Georgia way who said that Rev:13 says "an olive skinned Muslim from Asia will rise to power in America and he is the antichrist")
So Frag , you have obviously had your head in the sand and when you say ...
...as it actually demonstrates your usual islamophobia which you cherish so much .Quote:
Classical islamphilist response by the way
Be fair Bopa , after lots of complaints and getting caught on camera the government did tell its army to tell its soldiers that they shouldn't go round breaking childrens arms with rocks and rifle butts anymore .Quote:
breaking limbs with rocks?
Have you read the specifications for genocide?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Winter
Do you realise that what Israel si doing in Gaza is now classed as genocide?
Did you read that medialens report?
Oh how kind of them, smearing excrement all over their schools is a better choice...Quote:
Be fair Bopa , after lots of complaints and getting caught on camera the government did tell its army to tell its soldiers that they shouldn't go round breaking childrens arms with rocks and rifle butts anymore .
You have to love the humanism of Israel.
Think what you want, I only care about what you do. That tiny difference between being silly and being nuts. If it is what it is then it is simply that. Look at what you have to bring up, how deep you actually dig to justify Hamas, and for what they want to kill an entire nation and it's people, now who is deluded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
The American fundamentalists want to destroy Israel as well, they just want to build it up first. At least Hamas talk a remotely straight game.
Those US Evangelicals are awaiting the rapture and as far as they are concerned Scotty isn't going to be beaming up a single Jew.
It's interesting about beliefs like those held by the Isaelis and Palastinians. To be honest I don't believe the Israeli people believe in a two=state solution, the Biblical Kingdom of Israel was four times the size of the current country. The Israelis might be willing to accept temporary defeat in return for long term completion of their ultimate goal.
Having said that the Palastinians are no better, though they arguably have far more right to be very very angry.
I wonder just how many more victorys like this Israel can afford ?
Im not sure about palestinians will for the two state solution but i see the real problem lying with israeli civilians, i mean if they give the palestinians water it means less water for them, if they give the palestinians land it means less land for them, why give all this up when you can continue to discredit any peace deals or talks as the enemy are far too evil to deal with. Simply put i believe israeli's would rather kill and be killed than give up the thier advantages.
I disagree, the Israelis are the victims of powerful and consistent propoganda to intensify an already dangerous situation. I doubt I would be break from such tappestries of lies, I would probably go on living and breathing ignorance. What Israelis and the West require, is decent men walking the halls of power, there are plenty of them in Israel. I know some who came to my university last year, they were men who had the courage to criticize their own people, for me that would be hard, for Jew it would be torture. But they did it and they have proven that Israelis can, if they try hard enough, come to decent resolutions about the Palestinians.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
They mirror many Palestinians...
The courage to sing the hyms of the leftist church? There is nothing brave about attacking Israel it's the salonsocialist consensus.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:Quote:
Look at what you have to bring up, how deep you actually dig to justify Hamas
That isn't digging deep or justifying Hamas Frag , it just shows how little you think .
Good question .Quote:
who is deluded.
Can you get access to one of those magic glass things Frag ?
If you can take a good look at it as you will find the deluded person in the mirror .:yes:
But (oh, look, I will now disagree with Tribesman), for me there is certainly a difference between "God wants us to slaughter them now!" and "God wants us to be nice to them now, try to convert/save them, but he will come later and kill them himself.".Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
The bible does not say christians should kill the unbelievers in the end times, it says God himself will send heavenly creatures/plagues to do just that, quite different in terms of how the believers are supposed to act.
Of course not Tribes you are just putting it into perspective. Mormons and Hamas are really the same thing. Thinking that the end is nigh is just as criminal as blowing up a schoolbus full of kids. Building a temple for rapture is just as nasty as completely whiping out a country and it's people. Maybe it's a good thing that I don't think that much it isn't meant for everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
carry on
"If you hand offends you cut it off"? That, among many other passages in the Gospel and Epistles has been used oft times to justify Holy War, mainly on the grounds that the bad belief/religion could be used to infect good Christians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar