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Lets have a new thread for this!
Anatolikoi Phyletai
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...an_hillmen.gif
Basically like Drapnai in Anatolia except with 40 more people and some armor. And unlike their Kappadocian neighbors, they have AP. I first encountered them with some Spartans and they won that fight. Scary.
I once beat 150 of those with 40 spartans, although I was kind of cheating (by yelling "This is Sparta!" and alt-clicking on them over and over again).
Of course, the Drapanai belong here. They're sort of like kamikaze units: they die like flies, but not before they take the enemy with them.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...i_drapanai.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ezhetairoi.gif
I find the Pezhetairoi(Baktria Campaign) pretty bad the way I fight my battles(Defending in a city with stone walls) as they loose significantly more men then the Pantodapoi Phalangitai when fighting against the same unit...
I think you are not supposed to use them ON the walls, as they are not flexible enough up there to use their strength being their spear/sarissa. I usually guard my city center or the gates with them. There they do a pretty good job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wausser
Yeah that's why I said, the way I fight my battles, I beat the enemy at the walls, not in the city herself, I'd better go for the Klerouchoi Phalangitai or Pantodapoi Phalangitai since they give way better performance at the walls...
That doesn't make the Pezhetairoi a surprisingly bad unit.
That just makes you a surprisingly bad tactician.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Well, Pantadapoi have AP axes after all, so this explains why they fare pretty fair on the walls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by desert
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
I have to add the uirodusios
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...uirodusios.gif
though they're not as good as the gaesatae, they still are extremely useful, for they scare enemies enough to make them flee much sooner as usual
Plus they're naked!Quote:
Originally Posted by SwissBarbar
In the old "Surprisingly bad units"-Thread I wrote some very bad things about Thorakitai, that Thureophoroi can accomplish all of their tasks for less money. I stand corrected. In my current Epirus Campaign I use them extensively to fight the more mobile forces of Romani and Celts in Northern Italy and the Hoplite- and Thorakitai-armies of the KH. Recently, as the Seleukids betrayed me and invaded my Makedonian homelands in a field-manual-Blitzkrieg, my Thorakitai even did quite well as anvil, holding up against a Seleukid phalanx line (I put them in guard mode).
So I recall my statement, that Thorakitai would be surprisingly bad units. They are unsurprisingly good units.
Surprisingly good units in my Italian campaigns as Epirus were these two:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...n_spearmen.gif
Aichmetai Leukanoi (Lucanian Spearmen)
They are excellent flanking infantry comparable to Peltastai and they can even hold a line (if only against non-elites), plus their spear gives them some stopping power against cavalry.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...akontistai.gif
Hippakontistai
Seriously, they were all the cavalry I needed against the Romani. It takes a bit of practice to use them to the utmost efficiency but they are great for harassing the enemies heavy infantry, then driving off the enemy missle troops and then coming back to give the final blow to the enemy's main line by charging its back.
Yeah, that's why they are so scary. It seems that Penisses were were very terrible those ages.Quote:
Originally Posted by blank
https://img220.imageshack.us/img220/...rmenuw1.th.jpghttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...nsahr-arsh.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u..._arab_levy.gif
{arabian_missile_northern_arab_levy} Giusim 'Arabim Tsphonim (Arabian Light Archer-Spearmen)
{eastern_missile_eransahr_arshtbara} Nîzagân-î Êrânshahr (Persian Archer-Spearmen)
Archer-Spearmen
Whether they're called Giusim 'Arabim Tsphonim or Nîzagân-î Êrânshahr, I have found them indispensable when playing as Baktria and Saba. They are versatile and cheap, very important qualities when you're fighting the Seleukids or Ptolemies, who can afford to send stack after stack at you. I'm outnumbered and outclassed in almost every battle against them, so every man has to pull his weight and then some!
Behind pikes, they can shoot it out with horse archers. Their arrows demolish pantadopoi and other unarmored or lightly armored foes without taking a scratch. This lets them build up experience, too. When sallying, they can pepper the backs of the more expensive phalangites as they run to take up defensive positions on a slope outside the town, and can then retreat behind the walls and do it again next season. When assaulting a town in a pitched battle, they can be used as fodder once they're out of arrows. With their spears, they can even bring down cavalry or at least keep them busy while you charge with yours. Once they've exhausted their arrows, they can flank, or chase routing foes. Don't expect miracles from them, but they deliver solid performance and are useful in all phases of the battle. To me, they also seem more steady and less prone to routing than my more expensive levies and the b'nei shevet skirmishers.
Tip for use: Leave them on guard, not skirmish mode, unless you want them to wrap around a phalanx. Then make sure both are off and watch them poke the phalangites in the back. Another great tactic for fighting the phalanx is to split them in two directions on either side of the slower-moving phalangites, turn off fire at will, leave skirmish on, wait until the phalanxes have their backs turned, then fire away.
Actually, Katpatuka Zanteush have AP axes. They also have javelins, which makes them better against Phalangitai.Quote:
And unlike their Kappadocian neighbors, they have AP
One of my surprisingly good units would be a related one, the Kôfyâren-î Verkhânâ (Hyrkanian Hillmen). Although their armour is pathetic, they are excellent for taking out heavy cavalry of all kinds. Plus they are good vs. phalanx (again, Javelins+AP axe) and readily available as mercs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by desert
Ugh, I hate those little turds. They ripped an entire legion of fresh recruits from Capua down by half with their ferocious swing. They are always a favored merc unit of mine when in N. Greece and Illyria.
Hippeis Xystophoroi
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ystophoroi.gif
They are the best cavalry unit awailable. Faster then Hetairoi and not so expensive like them. Good armor and a good charge. And a big area of recruitment.
https://img10.imageshack.us/img10/65...ophoroigs8.jpg
https://img10.imageshack.us/img10/hi...pg/1/w1024.png
That doesn't seem very big...
I would contribute, but I don't know how to get those pictures.
The unitpictures are from www.europabarbarorum.com (go to "factions", select a faction and go to "units"). And the map is from the recruitmentviewer which was within your EB1.1 installer.
And big...yes big is relative:sweatdrop:, big for elitecavaleryunits:yes:.
Hm. I neither used (never played KH so far) nor encountered them. They look like the KH-specific Hippeis Thessalikoi or Agema Klerouchikon Hippeon. Are they about they same stat-wise?
Roughly. Hippeis Thessalikoi are a little better stat-wise. Also the colour of their horses is different.Quote:
Are they about they same stat-wise?
Speaking of KH's cavalry, I would also say that Lonchophoroi Hippeis are very good for their upkeep.
Thanks Zett
Your unit looks cool, but the horsey has no armour! Wait a minute...
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...q_extraord.gif
Eqvites Extraordinarii
Strange...
And these guys
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...irmish_cav.gif
Not Kuna!!
Yes, him. They would be decent in Europe, but stepp warfare is horrible for Javelin skirmishers. No armour, bad range, the Dahae riders are a lot better. High upkeep too.
About the stats...
From up to down: Hippies Xystophoroi (KH), Hippies Thessalikoi (Makedonia, Epeiros and KH), Agema Klerouchikon Hippeon (Ptolemaioi), Eqvites Extraordinarii (Romani), Hetairoi, Molosson Agema (Epeiros)
https://img49.imageshack.us/img49/5838/neubitmapto2.png
https://img49.imageshack.us/img49/ne...png/1/w640.png
(damn, its too small:oops:. I hope u have good eyes)
Armored Horses...one of the advantages of a horse is, that you can eat it if it dies during battle. No armor means you need no can opener:smash:.
Molosson Agema. Good Stamina Shock Cavalry.
does the Eqvites Extraordinarii have any advantage over the Hippies Thessalikoi? the EE does not seem to pay off in contrast to the others.
Of course not... it's Roman cavalry after all. The only advantage would probably be the wider AOR, as Hippeis Thessalikoi are (as the name suggests) only recruitable in Thessalia.
I agree on the Lochnophoroi Hippeis and the Molosson Agema, but they're both no really *surprisingly* good.
Well at the first glance, when I compared Molosson to Hetairoi I concluded they were wholly inferior in armour. However having shock cavalry that doesn't tire after two or three attacks or a brief fight is a real winner for Epeiros.
You miss the point of the Daha Skirmishers, Super Market. They are not supposed to fight Horse Archers, but rather heavy cavalry or infantry. Unlike the light HAs with their daggers or spears, Daha Skirmishers can be really dangerous even to bodyguard cavalry because they have AP axes (and javelins are better against armour than arrows). In fact, I would rather list them as a "surprisingly good" unit.
That's true, on the downside however they can only be recruited in Ambrakia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basileos ton Ellenon
I think a really good unit would be the hoplitai haploi, theyre really good, ive been using them on my Koinon Hellenon campaign, also i think the machimoi hippeis are really good to be light cavalry, they have those ap axes for close combat, although if you leave them for too much they will die easily but they can fare well. And well also two of my favorite units are the hoplitai and the teurophoroi they can be first line units and hold them quite well
where did you get this file from?:huh2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zett
looks neat
In your start menu where you have installed EB there is beside the recruitment viewer the units list and unit compare ;)
well, my right eye is a good little eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zett
left eye cost me my driver's license last week. F***. (seriously, it did).
but yes, in this comparison, I would actually support the Hetairoi. it has sperior melee surviveability, and its charge is better. staminas are close to each other, in that regard its close. so in sum, the cavalry are IMHO (in order of effectiveness):
Hetairoi
molossan agema
agema klerouchikon hippeon (better than molossans in armor, worse in melee)
hippeis xystaphoroi
hipeis thessalikoi
extraordinarii-which, although ok, is terrible in comparison to the above cavalry.
I place emphasis on charge and melee, armor is important, but stamina is not as important (as i normally use the cavalry once, to finih the buggers off).
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ortamavera.gif
The best Rastaman-Spearman on Earth! Great medium infantry. In my lusocampaign they´re fight in centreposition and they never break even against roman/cartage/gauls elites and naked dudes.
Even better when they get silver-chevrons.
those indohellenic noble hoplites are not that good because of their AOR once you can recruit them as baktria you usually have the whole of india in your hands and you have to transport them back to through your territory
+ i don't think they are that great fighters
Yep I love my scorto's, they are killing machines that do not stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tartaros
My nicest surpise in my current Sweboz campaign is the German Swordsmen. I was planning to rely on FM's and German pike for the line, but 4 units of these bad boys in a main army stack (especially if recruited in a city dedicated to Deiwoz) are battle winners.
They can hold a line, carve through a flank, I've seen them absorb and repel massed Celtic cavalry charges (despite no spears), they die hard and slow, and take everyone with them. The accumulate chevrons like crazy because unlike most Germans they're not gutted after 1-2 combats. Javelins, shieldwall and VG endurance, these units have good tactical flexibility (not Thracian-Peltast-good, but still...)
I haven't made it to the 190BC reforms yet, but they will remain a mainstay even when the heavies arrive.
My surprisingly bad unit:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...t_elephant.gif
They are exspensive, didn't have any archers on top... (spare the seleucids, ptolies, and baktria's towered version for fairly fair units), the Carthie's elephants usable only against enemy's crack elite army (the slow and heavilyy armoured infantry), and die like flies when face mobs of junk units / proper skirmishing unit... (and the AI always buld tons of skirmishers and low class levies...) In my opinion, they are ussualy used as very exspensive suicide bombs against line of cheap units. (their frighten enemy effect is worth only against crack elite such as romani's reformed legionary, spartans, or exspensive heavy cavalry... they can fear the romans, but the ptolies's pantodapoi will slaughter them easily for far cheaper price (2 unit of pantodapoi charged an kardhastim elephant corps... doom for that beasts), even on medium battle difficulty...
My Surprisingly good unit:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...i_bagaudas.gif
They are described as poor class soldiers, but with proper use, they could put a doom against entire army made from more exspensive, professional troops, plus they have excellent chance to hold and survive in hand to hand combat...... With their price, all you must do is got some missile troops to prevent them die prematurely from enemy missile troops.... they far more worthy than they would pay....:yes:
Would you provide the name of the second unit?
Regarding the Carthaginian elephants: There exists a towered elephant unit for Carthage. It's a bit tricky: There are two African elephant units, one with a Greek name and one with a Semitic(?) name. One of the is the unit you mention, the other one has a tower with one archer. Both units cost the same. I don't know which one's the towered, though. It's been a while since I played Carthage or Ptolemaioi.
Cute Wolf's second unit:
Bagaudas (Veneti Swordsmen). Recruitable only in Armoriae. Very convenient though as they are a low-tier unit, easy to get for all factions.
The "semitic" elephants are Pilei Ya'ar Libim.
Funny to hear about the Scortamareva, as I intended to post them as a "surprisingly bad" (although cool-looking) unit. Maybe I have been using them in the wrong way.
Thanks for providing the unit names, athanaric.
Quote:
Originally Posted by athanaric
British and especially Galatian shortswords do equally (surprisingly) good. Plus, the latter one has a much broader AOR, albeit it only in the East.
aren't they only recruitable in 2 areas?
Yes but those two areas are very well accessible and strategically well-positioned for using them in your army.Quote:
Originally Posted by theoldbelgian
Yes, but they are also readily available as mercenaries throughout the region. Very practical for a KH player who wishes to expand into Asia Minor.Quote:
Originally Posted by theoldbelgian
E: Verdammt, Nachtmeister, you beat me.
Indeed, but as said: they come as mercenaries in the whole of Greece, Trace, Asia Minor, Levant and Northern Egypt IIRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by theoldbelgian
Makes them the ideal disposable killers IMO
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u..._kluddolon.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by athanaric
MUHAHAHAHAHAHR!! MUUUUUHAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAARRRHHH!!!
You drive home a very important point about them that I omitted, tho - merc-ability all over Europa.
And Mikra Asia. Basically the best choice for someone who wants some extra chopper-infantry for only one or two engagements at low cost. Kill phalanxes at record speed if they reach their rear without getting shot to pieces on the way by enemy skirmishers.
One wonders why Galatia hasn't been run dry of men yet..
They probably have many wives from raiding.
I'm sure if your wife was a hot red head, you'd be uh, making sure the Galatian state had tons of future warriors.
Well we know the men certainly did both of the jobs they were required to do. Defend and feed your family and have lots of kids for warriors.
Oh, i think i know what you meen. But they need definitely a bit exercisment. with three or four chevrons + weapon upgrade they ´re a "Surprisingly" solid unit. "Fresh" recruited they are sometimes very fast-dying...Quote:
Originally Posted by athanaric
My golden chevroned Akontistai are surprisingly good too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tartaros
That's why I almost never retrain. Fighting the AI is already easy enough, then why use fullstacks and experienced units? Certainly because the AI hardly retrains (some say it doesn't at all, but I've seen them do it).
All low armoured and cheap shortswordsmen are surprisingly good units for me.... but the bagaudas are the most reliable when we playing "civilized" factions....
Speaking of light swordsmen, one "surprisingly good" unit also comes to my mind:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...z_hattisku.gif
Why? - They are dirt cheap (675/169, compare that to Bagaudas!), have AP melee weapons, powerful charge, excellent stamina, and, unlike other Germanic troops, a decent javelin range (because of lighter javelins). All this makes them excellent garrison troops. Of course they die like Dacians if exposed to missile fire, but so do other barbarian units.
E: sorry, forgot the name: "Chatti Youth" clubmen.
Can't seem to get enough of these guys.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...i_infantry.gif
Perfect for fighting the sweboz, reasonably cheap too.
and they are not as tough as bagaudas, try to fight 'em head to head next time...:smash:
Bagaudas are even surprisingly better than their galatian counterparts in terms of combat prowess (2 bagaudas can beat 1 Gaesahtae in ambush!), galatians are only better in fact they has better AOR.
This unit and the main Club infantry that the Sweboz use are that factions saving grace against armored opponents, such as later Roman legions, Uber heavy cavalry, and even Spartans.Quote:
Originally Posted by athanaric
I have done extensive battle testing, where i fight armored opponents with Sweboz aries that do and dont have these units. For ever clubmen unit i added enemy casualties rose about 10-15%, VERY impressive for guys that cost 690 mnai (THE cheapest unit in the game)
Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou... why "surprisingly" good? Several reasons:
- they really do look like Snowtroopers, it makes my empire feel that much more like... the Empire;
- they are incredibly tough;
- they have a really cool name I like saying out loud.:beam:
All in all, they're even cooler than I expected. Thus the "surprisingly".
The surprisingly bad unit (as far as I've seen): Armenian horse archers, the cataphract kind. I don't know what makes them worse than any regular one, I just know my cataphracts wiped out several full units of those taking only five casualties, they fall easily.
Errrrr....TAB as "SURPRISINGLY" good? Ekhm...these guys are great but no surprisingly...they are elite kings guards; best of the best...nothing surprisingly...:inquisitive:
That's strange. They didn't do any worse then my parthian ones in my Hai campaign. And those guys are unsurprisingly good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister V
Perhaps you did charge them? Even a phalanx will suffer heavy casualties when from a cataphract charge, cavalary of any kind (except perhaps counter-charging cataphracts) won't stand a chance at all. Also cataphracts (other then the noble ones) have AP secondary weapons.
I said that I thought they were going to be good-looking and not bad in combat. I didn't expect them to be this awesome in all aspects!Quote:
Originally Posted by Megalos Danielos Psychopatos
Seriously, it's just been a long time since I've played EB, maybe I'm somewhat over-enthusiastic:beam:
I charged them, but they weren't just standing there either, they were trying to get away from mine. If they were standing still, I wouldn't be surprised either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolg
Also, I've found something wierd (and it is unit-related, so I'll post it here). The TAB and Kataphraktoi aren't supposed to upgrade their weapons, right? Well for some reason when I go to Halikarnassos, I can retrain them and it gets upgraded. Glitch?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister V
Sometimes charges also work when they usually shouldn't, so it might have been this. well, w/e it's not that important. Parthian Armoured HA a better(=cheaper) anyway.
Hey, Chatti Clubmen aren't the cheapest unit!! Aren't you forgetting the crap slingers and archers?
What unit is this? Never encountered them before.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbin
Boii Cingetos. Recruitable in southern Central Europe. Large unit size, decent armour, Longsword+Javelins.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberHRE
Boii Cingetos actually use shortswords. They're more or less just Celtic legionaries, making them unsurprisingly good units.
Damn. Shoulda known that.:embarassed:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cullhwch
OK, this may sound a bit strange. . .
My surprisingly bad unit is Cardinau Orca.
They're not bad in the sense that they can't do anything. . . they don't suffer that many casualties compared to the kills. It's just that, with all the hype they get in the forum, I was disappointed in their performance.
I sent them into the middle of the melee, where I usually put my elites, and they just kinda wrestled with the bad guys (1 thora and parts of 2 theuros) until everyone was exhausted.
They did OK - something like 20 losses and 80 kills - but I had to use one of my Thracian peltasts on the back of the thora to end the fight.
The Cardinau Orca aren't bad, just not as good as their hype. So, surprisingly bad.
I'm probably just spoiled by the Rhomphoia. . .
Mmh all of the royal guards of the helenistic forces are kind of surprisingly bad.
They cost like 800 every turn and are just weak, if compared to far more cheap units like Thorakitai or Triarii, who also have better armors... :smash:
Surprisingly good are the pantapoi phalangitai, who just kick ass with their axes and they,I dont know why, beat the klerouchi(?) every time despite their higher stats. :dizzy2:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ui_milnaht.gif
These guys are unsurprisingly good. You expect them to be a decent heavy infantry unit. However, they take things into surprisingly amazing territory. Milnaht can absolutely wreck all but the heaviest infantry in a melee and their staying power is unbeatable. They're basically Gaesatae Lite. Elite troops minus the price tag.
Bah, 1 vs. 1 I've defeated them with an unit of Bataroas. It took high casualties tough.
In sum I think they are inferior as a line unit. Unless you're talking about the experienced Eleutheroi guys in the Bellovacea Belgica, they gave me a headache.
I don't know about that. The Milnaht are pretty good. I've used them extensively in my Casse campaigns as line troops, and they took on Sweboz heavies and routed them. They're pretty good troops.
Yeah, the Milnaht are pretty fierce badasses.
The humble Komatai is a good unit, hard to say wether surprisingly so, but they are well worth the relatively small cost. Good skirmishers, numerous, and reasonable fighters.
Drapanai are very good, but that we all know that already, yesterday one of my Drapanai charged a Koinon general head on, in the beginning the Hellenes thought they could win, a few seconds later they realized they were doomed, end result, all them "elite" hoplites dead, a handful dead Drapanai (of course the Drapanai was helped by the fact that I soon had more warriors join the fun, but they were clearly winning already by then).
totally agree with that. milnaht often saved my battles...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cullhwch
I love the Persian Archers, they are cheap and can hold off hordes of those infernal Saka Rauka.
Once, I also had one of the green mercenary Persian archers (not the archer-spearmen), and they routed four units of Greek spearmen in hand-to-hand (admittedly the spearmen were in a Saka army).:laugh4:
You mean the Pantodapoi, also known as Moving Speed Bump or Annoying Cannonfodder? Those aren't really Greek (nor are they real fghting units).Quote:
[...] and they routed four units of Greek spearmen in hand-to-hand (admittedly the spearmen were in a Saka army).
Still I agree with you that the Thanvare Payâhdag are the most cost-effective garrison troops for Baktria or AS. Persian Archers on stone walls are just great for disposing of nasty Nomad rabble.
Surprisingly Good: Maure Infantry or Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry. The Maure because they are one of the few skirmishing units that I am not afraid to send into melee and Kinsmen because I can routinely use them to take on even heavier cavalry and hold for a good long while. Also, they move at a nice clip
Unsurprisingly Good: Marian Legionnaires. They are the most cost-effective, widest ranging unit in the game. Only steppe nomads can come close
Unsurprisingly Bad: Pantodopai. 'Nuff said.
Surprisingly Bad: Spartan Hoplites or Neitos. Spartan Hoplites mainly because for an elite they just don't give what I'd expect (though the in-game text does warn you somewhat). Neitos mainly vs close-order spears. They seem to do just fine against looser-ordered anything but if I hit a wall of tight spears they seem to take undue casualties and I cannot for the life of me figure out why.
I agree on the Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry. Seems like the AS seems to know that two as I frequently encounter AS armies with Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry and they surely are a pain in the ass. As Pontus they are the reason one can survive the early game.
Spartan Hoplites aren't particularly unsurprisingly bad. They're just impractical to use to hold the line. You have to use them as a reserve. :-\
I also go from a recruitment-area take as well. One province wonders generally don't make the list and seeing as only one faction can get Spartans and that faction has the much more numerous Epilektoi Hoplitai, Thorakitai Hopiltai, and others, Spartans just don't stand out. When I played KH I never used Spartans outside of the starting batch.
Spartans are good for breaking the enemy line.
I've found that they are more useful than Epilektoi (who die too quickly) for holding the line, but not as good as regular hoplitai. If you have them charge an enemy, though, they will often bore right through them.