Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[desert]

Hey, Chatti Clubmen aren't the cheapest unit!! Aren't you forgetting the crap slingers and archers?

[SaberHRE]

Can't seem to get enough of these guys.

Perfect for fighting the sweboz, reasonably cheap too.

What unit is this? Never encountered them before.

[athanaric]

What unit is this? Never encountered them before.

Boii Cingetos. Recruitable in southern Central Europe. Large unit size, decent armour, Longsword+Javelins.

[Cullhwch]

Boii Cingetos actually use shortswords. They're more or less just Celtic legionaries, making them unsurprisingly good units.

[athanaric]

Boii Cingetos actually use shortswords. They're more or less just Celtic legionaries, making them unsurprisingly good units.

Damn. Shoulda known that.

[Kromulan]

OK, this may sound a bit strange. . .
My surprisingly bad unit is Cardinau Orca.
They're not bad in the sense that they can't do anything. . . they don't suffer that many casualties compared to the kills. It's just that, with all the hype they get in the forum, I was disappointed in their performance.
I sent them into the middle of the melee, where I usually put my elites, and they just kinda wrestled with the bad guys (1 thora and parts of 2 theuros) until everyone was exhausted.
They did OK - something like 20 losses and 80 kills - but I had to use one of my Thracian peltasts on the back of the thora to end the fight.
The Cardinau Orca aren't bad, just not as good as their hype. So, surprisingly bad.


I'm probably just spoiled by the Rhomphoia. . .

[seienchin]

Mmh all of the royal guards of the helenistic forces are kind of surprisingly bad.
They cost like 800 every turn and are just weak, if compared to far more cheap units like Thorakitai or Triarii, who also have better armors...
Surprisingly good are the pantapoi phalangitai, who just kick ass with their axes and they,I dont know why, beat the klerouchi(?) every time despite their higher stats.

[Cullhwch]

These guys are unsurprisingly good. You expect them to be a decent heavy infantry unit. However, they take things into surprisingly amazing territory. Milnaht can absolutely wreck all but the heaviest infantry in a melee and their staying power is unbeatable. They're basically Gaesatae Lite. Elite troops minus the price tag.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Bah, 1 vs. 1 I've defeated them with an unit of Bataroas. It took high casualties tough.

In sum I think they are inferior as a line unit. Unless you're talking about the experienced Eleutheroi guys in the Bellovacea Belgica, they gave me a headache.

[kekailoa]

I don't know about that. The Milnaht are pretty good. I've used them extensively in my Casse campaigns as line troops, and they took on Sweboz heavies and routed them. They're pretty good troops.

[SwissBarbar]

Yeah, the Milnaht are pretty fierce badasses.

[Laman]

The humble Komatai is a good unit, hard to say wether surprisingly so, but they are well worth the relatively small cost. Good skirmishers, numerous, and reasonable fighters.

Drapanai are very good, but that we all know that already, yesterday one of my Drapanai charged a Koinon general head on, in the beginning the Hellenes thought they could win, a few seconds later they realized they were doomed, end result, all them "elite" hoplites dead, a handful dead Drapanai (of course the Drapanai was helped by the fact that I soon had more warriors join the fun, but they were clearly winning already by then).

[Tartaros]

These guys are unsurprisingly good. You expect them to be a decent heavy infantry unit. However, they take things into surprisingly amazing territory. Milnaht can absolutely wreck all but the heaviest infantry in a melee and their staying power is unbeatable. They're basically Gaesatae Lite. Elite troops minus the price tag.

totally agree with that. milnaht often saved my battles...

[Chloe]

I love the Persian Archers, they are cheap and can hold off hordes of those infernal Saka Rauka.
Once, I also had one of the green mercenary Persian archers (not the archer-spearmen), and they routed four units of Greek spearmen in hand-to-hand (admittedly the spearmen were in a Saka army).

[athanaric]

[...] and they routed four units of Greek spearmen in hand-to-hand (admittedly the spearmen were in a Saka army).

You mean the Pantodapoi, also known as Moving Speed Bump or Annoying Cannonfodder? Those aren't really Greek (nor are they real fghting units).
Still I agree with you that the Thanvare Payâhdag are the most cost-effective garrison troops for Baktria or AS. Persian Archers on stone walls are just great for disposing of nasty Nomad rabble.

[LordCurlyton]

Surprisingly Good: Maure Infantry or Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry. The Maure because they are one of the few skirmishing units that I am not afraid to send into melee and Kinsmen because I can routinely use them to take on even heavier cavalry and hold for a good long while. Also, they move at a nice clip
Unsurprisingly Good: Marian Legionnaires. They are the most cost-effective, widest ranging unit in the game. Only steppe nomads can come close
Unsurprisingly Bad: Pantodopai. 'Nuff said.
Surprisingly Bad: Spartan Hoplites or Neitos. Spartan Hoplites mainly because for an elite they just don't give what I'd expect (though the in-game text does warn you somewhat). Neitos mainly vs close-order spears. They seem to do just fine against looser-ordered anything but if I hit a wall of tight spears they seem to take undue casualties and I cannot for the life of me figure out why.

[machinor]

I agree on the Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry. Seems like the AS seems to know that two as I frequently encounter AS armies with Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry and they surely are a pain in the ass. As Pontus they are the reason one can survive the early game.

[antisocialmunky]

Spartan Hoplites aren't particularly unsurprisingly bad. They're just impractical to use to hold the line. You have to use them as a reserve. :-\

[LordCurlyton]

I also go from a recruitment-area take as well. One province wonders generally don't make the list and seeing as only one faction can get Spartans and that faction has the much more numerous Epilektoi Hoplitai, Thorakitai Hopiltai, and others, Spartans just don't stand out. When I played KH I never used Spartans outside of the starting batch.

[desert]

Spartans are good for breaking the enemy line.

I've found that they are more useful than Epilektoi (who die too quickly) for holding the line, but not as good as regular hoplitai. If you have them charge an enemy, though, they will often bore right through them.

[soup_alex]

Surprisingly Good: Maure Infantry...

Really?
At first I was impressed by their combination of armour and speed (no Peltastai, I suppose, but we Carthaginians make do with what we have), but in my experience they're excelled as melee-javelineers by Iberians and Garamantines, and as mobile javelineers by (Iberi) Velites and (I think) Numidians.

Meanwhile, my (admittedly limited) experience with Spartan Hoplites has been favourable: having been given a "free" unit with a mercenary general (who proceeded to collect multiple valour-boosting ancilliaries), I attempted to experiment with this phalangite warfare that everyone is so excited about, and found that a well-timed charge by the über-hoplites was just the thing to help mercenary Phalangites to break up disciplined heavy infantry (I agree, though, that you do have to pick your moment though as they're not near as useful without the charge)


My surprisingly bad unit would probably be Carthaginian Citizen Cavalry (as someone has already nominated Forest Elephants; these guys are nearly as useless). Despite being considered fast moving they're nearly always caught, and though boasting a healthy charge bonus, they seem never to want to use it—I've tried many a time, and these swine always either neglect to couch(?) their xyston or instead go in with swords. Much of the time, they seem to ride at full tilt toward a point some metres to the right or left of where the enemy actually sit, before slowing to a walk and eventually homing in (which leads me to believe that they must have developed a tactic of closing one (or both) of their eyes as they charge.
Indeed, I'm loath to put much faith in any of Carthage's cavalry bar the Sacred Band. I can't wait to get my hands on the Iberi Lanceari!

[kekailoa]

Really?

My surprisingly bad unit would probably be Carthaginian Citizen Cavalry (as someone has already nominated Forest Elephants; these guys are nearly as useless). Despite being considered fast moving they're nearly always caught, and though boasting a healthy charge bonus, they seem never to want to use it—I've tried many a time, and these swine always either neglect to couch(?) their xyston or instead go in with swords. Much of the time, they seem to ride at full tilt toward a point some metres to the right or left of where the enemy actually sit, before slowing to a walk and eventually homing in (which leads me to believe that they must have developed a tactic of closing one (or both) of their eyes as they charge.
Indeed, I'm loath to put much faith in any of Carthage's cavalry bar the Sacred Band. I can't wait to get my hands on the Iberi Lanceari!

Really? I actually found them to be quite good. Once you level them up, they're killers in melee against most of your African enemies. I used them extensively for the first quarter of my Carthy game.

[soup_alex]

Really? I actually found them to be quite good. Once you level them up, they're killers in melee against most of your African enemies. I used them extensively for the first quarter of my Carthy game.

Maybe I'm just a poor cavalry commander (although Sacred Band always manage to do the job, and Equites Caetrati seldom fail)? I certainly wouldn't have expected Citizen Cavalry to fare well against African armies, though (and especially the Numidians). All those javelins and excellent archers do much harm to shield-less ***tizen Cav, and they haven't got a hope in hell against Glmdtk, much less are they able to catch them.

Half-Breed Cavalry, on the other hand...

[seienchin]

Maybe I'm just a poor cavalry commander (although Sacred Band always manage to do the job, and Equites Caetrati seldom fail)? I certainly wouldn't have expected Citizen Cavalry to fare well against African armies, though (and especially the Numidians). All those javelins and excellent archers do much harm to shield-less ***tizen Cav, and they haven't got a hope in hell against Glmdtk, much less are they able to catch them.

Half-Breed Cavalry, on the other hand...

The citizen cavallery is antiskirmisher antiarcher flanking cavallery, theyre not melee or heavy cavallery. Its best for them to only atack weak troops or from the rear and retreat immediatly. Used that way they are really a good cavallery esspecially because of their speed.
I would rather call the podromoi weak compared to the citizen Cavalery cause of their higher costs though they also die like flies
Does anyone know why??
My podromoi have armour 13 and still die like flies and absolutley suck in melee, even when turned to swords wich should have atack 11...

[soup_alex]

Perhaps you're often getting them stuck in with units that have a "hidden" AP weapon.


(Ba'al protect me, Numidian archers have an AP club with a lethality of 0.14?! What are they even doing carrying bows, they should be clad in armour and put on the front line!!)

[seienchin]

Perhaps you're often getting them stuck in with units that have a "hidden" AP weapon.


(Ba'al protect me, Numidian archers have an AP club with a lethality of 0.14?! What are they even doing carrying bows, they should be clad in armour and put on the front line!!)

No...
And AP only gives a Bonus against armor and does not completly ignore it. Podromoi jus suck...
But theyre fast. They are just like any other light atacking cavallery just more expensive, that is why they suck, but nt as hard as the indo iranian light cavallery, which costs even more.

[athanaric]

No...
And AP only gives a Bonus against armor and does not completly ignore it. Podromoi jus suck...
But theyre fast. They are just like any other light atacking cavallery just more expensive, that is why they suck, but nt as hard as the indo iranian light cavallery, which costs even more.

Prodromoi are actually excellent vs. other light cavalry and for chasing any kind of unit. Of course, they suck in melee vs. decent infantry or heavy cavalry, but that is not where they are supposed to be. Kamboja Asvaka Ksatriya have an advantage over Prodromoi insofar as they, unlike the latter, have shields and AP secondary weapons. Both have a good charge and are decent flankers. They are meant to counter HAs and skirmishers and to charge the flanks of enemy forces. AFAIK the same applies to the Poeni Citizen Cavalry.

[seienchin]

Prodromoi are actually excellent vs. other light cavalry and for chasing any kind of unit. Of course, they suck in melee vs. decent infantry or heavy cavalry, but that is not where they are supposed to be. Kamboja Asvaka Ksatriya have an advantage over Prodromoi insofar as they, unlike the latter, have shields and AP secondary weapons. Both have a good charge and are decent flankers. They are meant to counter HAs and skirmishers and to charge the flanks of enemy forces. AFAIK the same applies to the Poeni Citizen Cavalry.

Yes, but unlike the citizen cavallery they are just too expansive and you lose way to many men by charging with podromoi ot the Iranian ones. Thats why there Charge also sucks
But yes of course I always have some Cavallery of this kind in my Army to charge enemies archers, but their casualty are always too high against simple archers...

[soup_alex]

Yes, but unlike the citizen cavallery they are just too expansive and you lose way to many men by charging with podromoi ot the Iranian ones. Thats why there Charge also sucks
But yes of course I always have some Cavallery of this kind in my Army to charge enemies archers, but their casualty are always too high against simple archers...

Prodromoi are hardly much more expensive than Citizen Cavalry (2334/584 to 2200/550), and for that you get (according to the unit list) an extra two points of armour, better charge bonuses with xyston and sword, better stamina and an AoR covering much of Greece, Asia Minor, North Arabia, the Nile Delta and Bactria. Citizen Cavalry can be recruited in three provinces, all at the centre of the empire.

I suppose it's less surprising that Carthaginian cavalry is crap (although from a historical perspective, I'm not sure about that), but Prodromoi are still far superior (and I'm sure the Hellenes have access to other units to fill their role, anyway).

[bobbin]

Prodromoi are excellent charger cavalry IMO just never let them get involved in a melee, the thrakian version is even better and has a rather nice sabre too.
I tend to use them in conjunction with loncophoroi and they compliment each other perfectly.