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Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans.
Today we are proud to present the faction, Mamla'ha biMassylim (The Kingdom of Massylia). Its been a long-time coming, but it is a faction that we couldn't leave out. A great enemy of the Qarthadastim, their nomadic beginnings will offer a very different game-style to other factions in that part of the world. Eventually, however, they will settle and develop their infantry - perhaps even, as in history, under the patronage of the Roman Republic.
The Qarthadastim Empire has a new enemy at its doorstep, and from the depths of North Africa they will come.
Faction Description
'We have dwelled in this land since long before the others came.
The Caananites, whom the Greeks call Phoenicians, and the Greeks themselves. These people conquered our lands and settled where they wished leaving us just the arid desert, as if they owned the whole world. They call us treacherous and dishonourable, yet it is they who came here with tricks, who will switch alliances between our tribes whenever the balance of strength changes, and it is they who sell their daughters for our allegiance and hire us to protect their lands.
The Greeks say that we are the descendants of Persians, Indians, and Medes who followed Herakles to his demise in Iberia. They know nothing about us. We belong to this land. We roam freely and stay where we choose. For this we are called nomads, for this we are called Numidians.
And we, the tribe of the Massylii, are the strongest in our land. Though other tribes such as the Massaesylians seek to destroy us, they will fail. For we have grown in strength. Under the leadership of Ailyamus we have tested the strength of the Caananites and the Greeks. We have found our nation strong. We will unite the nomad tribes and rule the Gaetulians and Libyans, the Maures and Numidians. Then the world will quake at the sight of our strength and they will know . . .
. . . that we are the rightful rulers of this land.'
https://img407.imageshack.us/img407/...6aaarrgqd1.png
The image of the horse is taken from a coin minted by Micipsa, eldest legitimate son of Masinissa, King of Numidia. Numidians were widely praised for their horsemanship and cavalry in battle. They were strong allies to Rome and supplied many cavalry for the war against Qarthadastim. It is set on a leather background, a common material in Northern Africa. The blue and white colours set a strong tone for the faction.
The name of this faction ‘Mamla'ha biMassylim’ is Punic. Ancient Punic is related closely to ancient Hebrew as a Caananite Semitic language using an Aramaic script. As a result Punic was used as a guide for creating modern Hebrew, which allows us at EB to use modern Hebrew, with a few alterations, as a basis for our translations. Now anyone who knows Hebrew will notice that the preposition ‘bi’ in front of Massylim appears to be out of place as it normally means something akin to ‘in, by, by means of’. However, in ancient Punic it appears to have been used to mean ‘of’. Thus ‘Mamla'ha biMassylim’ means ‘Kingdom of Massylia’.
Nomad Camps
One of the problems we have with the nomadic factions, of which Mamla'ha biMassylim is one, is that on the campaign map (and indeed on the battlemap) one of their settlements will look exactly the same regardless of whether it is meant to represent a nomad camp or a more permanent, settled affair. In EBI this was never really a problem as not much attention was paid to campaign map settlement models, however in EBII this is certainly going to change. Each culture will receive their own settlement models in EBII; one model for each settlement size (from "village" to "huge city"). So how do we represent the difference in appearance between the transient camps of the nomadic tribes of northern africa and the great Phoenician cities of the coast, when both can be held by the same faction?
Well, M2:TW did introduce just such a feature, that allows two types of settlement models for each culture - the City/Castle dichotomy! The new settlement type, castle, will now be used to represent nomad camps in provinces that were largely nomadic at our game's start. These nomad camps are, of course, static on the campaign map, so they cannot represent the moving tribal populations, but will instead represent a permanent meeting or trading area that played host a constantly transient population. Over time, as a province develops and the nomad camp grows in size, these meeting and trading areas will begin to be called home by a few people for longer periods of time (a semi-settled feature) so the nomad camp model on the campaign map will register these changes.
To fully settle a province, which will form part of the social reforms for several nomadic factions (including the Saka Rauka, Phalava, as well as Mamla'ha biMassylim), the nomad faction will have to "convert" the nomad camp to a permanent settlement. This will open up an entirely new set of building options and change the appearance of the settlement both on the campaign map and on the battle map, and represents the settling of the meeting or trading place with a permanent tribal population capable of an agricultural lifestyle. This "conversion" does not affect the whole province directly, and the population will largely still be nomadic. However by converting the nomad camp and settling a people able to establish agricultural infrastructure the province's population will begin to lose their old traditional nomadic customs and ways of life.
__Massylians__________________________
The strongest tribe of Numidia is also the ethnicity of the 'Royal court' that rule from Cirta and Zama even though most of the population of the kingdom is still nomadic. The ethnicity that makes up the starting rulers of the faction/tribe. Most likely to get all important traits of command and management, as well as being the most loyal.
__Masaesylian_________________________
The other strong tribe of Numidia. The Numidians who rule from Siga under the new king Syphax are the ancient rivals of the Massylians, however they are Numidians and still will find their way into the royal family occassionally. They would be likely to get command traits and more likely to be unloyal.
__Puno-Numidian_______________________
The Numidians and Carthaginians had the custom of intermarriage. This practice was mostly done to get alliances and stronger ties between the Numidians and the Carthaginians. Most likely to get traits of command and management, as well as being loyal.
__Helleno-Numidian_____________________
In the later Numidian and Mauretanian kingdom, the Hellenes and specially those of the Ptolemaoi royal house started to enter the Numidian kingdom. The marriage between Juba II and Cleopatra Selene brought the mix of this two cultures to the Numidian princes. Most likely to get traits of command and management, as well as being loyal.
__Mauretanian_________________________
Occassional allies of the Massylians. The dark skinned peoples of the Mauretanii are well known, respected, yet still foreign in the royal court. The kingdoms of Numidia and Mauretania will join with the reign of Juba II. Will get command traits and sometimes will have a dubious loyalty.
__Numo-Gaetulian______________________
The Gaetulians were well known in the ancient world as courageous and loyal people and those with Gaetulian ancestry were respected. Such ancestry was proudly admitted untill well into the second century A.D. More likely to recieve command traits and very loyal.
Soldiers of North Africa
Mitnagsim Numidim
(Numidian Skirmishers)
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Numidian javelinmen are fast moving skirmishers trained from infancy in the use of the javelin for hunting. They are recruited from amongst nomadic peoples who need their weapon skills to survive in harsh conditions.
They are best employed to harry enemies and thin their ranks with volleys of missiles. They should avoid being sucked into hand-to-hand combat, as their knives are more useful in skinning animals than killing men; also, other than a small leather shield they have no armour. They wear simple loose tunics which are common across North West Africa at this time. Should they be caught in close combat or suffer heavy casualties they should not be expected to stand their ground and will likely attempt to disperse back into the countryside.
History: When it came to defending their country the Numidian kings relied on the terrain, overwhelming numbers, and the fleetness of their troops in withdrawing rather than any martial discipline such as the Romans pursued. As a result the majority of any Numidian army was composed of men more skilled as shepherds and husbandmen than in the art of war.
These men were easily routed and fared poorly whenever engaged in close quarters. However, they were extremely proficient skirmishers and their continued hit and run tactics, despite being infantry, were a nuisance only barely overcome by Metellus, Marius, Julius Caesar and many other respected commanders. While the Numidians showed their prowess on occasions such as these, their low morale was a severe weak point that turned the tide against them in many conflicts, especially under Syphax, king of Massaesylia, in the Second Punic War.
In describing the Numidian skirmishers Gaius Crispus Sallust, in his work ‘The Jugurthine War,’ says, “with the exception of the royal cavalry, no Numidian attends the king after a route; they disperse to whatever quarter they severally feel inclined, and this is not esteemed a military offense, but is the custom of the country.”
Qasatim Numidim
(Numidian Archers)
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Since the earliest times the Numidian people have fought from a distance. They ruled over the sands and mountains with sling, javelin and simple bows. When the Phoenicians came they pushed many of the nomads further into the harsh interior. The nomads soon adapted to the weapons of these outsiders and became acquainted with the composite bow.
Wearing no cowardly armour these archers with their Canaanite bows deliver death from afar, sending heavy arrows tearing through the ranks of the enemy. With a hat-helm protecting them from the harshness of the sun, they can deliver volley after volley of indirect fire. When the enemy is routed they descend upon them like ravenous jackals, and bash their heads in with their cudgels. If attacked up close they can give a good enough account of themselves as their weapons will tackle all but the most heavily armoured infantry. Yet this is a waste of good archers. Use these men wisely, general, and remember that they can win battles if employed properly. Being a people with a strong tradition in hunting they carry daggers as well but these are not intended to be weapons. They wear simple loose tunics which are common across North West Africa at this time.
History: Historically, the Numidian peoples lacked all but the simple bow until the arrival of Phoenicians at the end of the Bronze Age. Though it took some time, Numidians began to take up the bow with tremendous vigor. Soon, Carthage itself was replacing Phoenician archers with Numidian, and sending the former to become Marines in her great navy. Numidian archers operated at the battle of Zama during the Second Punic War. Numidian archers were battle winners for the Romans as well, giving extremely good accounts of themselves under Caesar and against the Celts and Germans who resisted the onslaught of Rome.
Qala'im Afrikanim
(African Slingers)
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African slingers come from the shepherd nomads who used their slings to protect their herds from predators and from the Libyan farming communities nearer the coast. They're quite skilled with their slings, which truly is a deceptively simple weapon. One end of the sling is looped around his wrist while the other is released when the stone is launched. A sling bullet would not be seen in flight and was capable of shattering a shield or penetrating unarmored flesh to a range of about 100 metres when slung by a skilled man.
African slingers are best used as light skirmishers. With no armor, a thin leather shield, and simple daggers, they rush forward toward the enemy to pepper them with terracotta shot, only to flee when threatened. For clothing they wear simple loose tunics which are common across North West Africa at this time.
History: Historically, slingers seem to have been used in almost all corners of the world in some form and North Africa was no exception. Hand slings are very easy and cheap to make, and yet they are a respectable weapon. They generally consisted of a single long strip of leather or woven wool, with a central "pocket" for the stone. The longer the sling, the greater its range.
While some reference is made to the Numidians using slingers on occasion, the greater evidence for the existence of large numbers of slingers in Northwest Africa comes from the remains of Carthaginian border forts called limes or fossa by the Romans. The Carthaginian forts could have housed as many as fifty men and finds recovered from them include terracotta slingshot and catapult ammunition.
Dorkim Numidim
(Numidian Infantry)
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Numidian infantry may not be as reliable as the heavy infantry of other countries but it will do. These men are the picked foot soldiers from among the many levies of the hills and valleys of Numidia. These men have some experience in combat and have been equipped and trained with better armaments using large leather thureos shields, swords and throwing spears. They wear tall conical helms characteristic of Numidia and simple loose tunics which are common across North West Africa at this time.
History: Historically the Numidians relied on the terrain, overwhelming numbers, and the fleetness of their troops in withdrawing rather than any martial discipline such as the Romans pursued. As a result the majority of any Numidian army was composed of men more skilled as shepherds and husbandmen than in the art of war. These men were easily routed and of little use in pitched battle. The Numidian kings recognized this fact and would later attempt to rectify it with a rigorous training program built under the Roman design.
However, in the days before the evolution of Roman styles in Numidia the kings would select the most experienced and veteran soldiers of their army, many of whom likely came from the settlements as opposed to the open country, and used them as a heavier pinning force to hold the enemy while their cavalry and skirmishers either got behind them or ambushed them from a prepared location.
Numidian infantry were decent enough infantry but were rarely given the ability to give a good account of themselves. In the army of Syhax of Massaesylia they were defeated before the battle began when their camp burned down. In the Jugurthine war they were simply outmatched by their Roman opponents. The only time when they gave a particularly good account of themselves was during the battle of Zama at the close of the Second Punic War. The Numidian infantry formed the right wing of Scipio’s infantry line and performed just as well as the Roman troops in pushing back the Carthaginian line and holding them long enough for the Roman and Numidian cavalry to get behind them.
Parasim Numidim
(Numidian Cavalry)
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Numidia produces some of the finest cavalry in all Africa, if not the Western Mediterranean world. Armed with javelins, these mounted skirmishers can be a nightmare for an opponent as it can prove practically impossible to pin them down in combat. Their tactics are to pelt the enemy with deadly volleys of javelins, and then swiftly retreat when charged. If the enemy stand, they are slaughtered with volleys of javelins, and if they run the Numidian cavalry can ride them down!
Instinctive riders, the Numidians are famed for not using a saddle or reins, using only a stick to direct their horses. Nevertheless, they maneuver with the "grace of a flock of birds". Having adapted to the broken expanses of their homelands, Numidian cavalry have great stamina, and they are also experts in their form of the Cantabrian circle attack.
The Numidian cavalry carries large leather and wicker shields which cover their bodies. Should their supply of javelins run low they will retain one for use in close quarters. Such a light weapon is not intended for close quarters, however, and such should be avoided except in the most dire of circumstances. For clothing they wear simple loose tunics which are common across North West Africa at this time.
History: Like their foot brethren the Numidian cavalry were not composed of trained soldiers like the Roman and Hellenic armies but more so shepherds, husbandmen, farmers and the like. As a result these men were easily routed and fared poorly whenever engaged in close quarters. However, they were extremely proficient skirmishers and their continued hit and run tactics and skill as riders resulted in overcoming much better armed, armored, and trained soldiers.
While the fleetness of the Numidians was primarily a trait designed to aid them in retreating when necessary from combat, it also made them excellent cavalry for chasing down fleeing opponents and capable of quickly crossing the battlefield to render aid where necessary. The generals who recognized and properly utilized these skills became famous and in turn made the Numidian cavalry famous. Numidian cavalry were present in almost every engagement of the Second Punic War and many of the First as well as ensuring Roman dominance in the Third. Numidian cavalry continued to serve as reliable Roman auxiliaries well into the Roman Empire serving as far away as Dacia under the Emperor Trajan, appearing on his renowned column.
Gldgmtk (Numidian Noble Cavalry)
__Early Era____________________________
__Middle Era___________________________
__Late Era_____________________________
The Numidian Nobles are the high ranking class of Numidia. Trained in the hit and run tactics of their lower caste comrades they also wield heavier equipment and armour. These heavier cavalry are capable bodyguards and can be effective on the charge but they are not on the same class as the heavy cavalry of other lands. Their greatest use lies in their speed, maneuverability, and accuracy with their javelins.
Should they be forced to charge they will draw their straight longswords of the Taureg design. The nobles of the nomadic era wear animal hides for defense and carry shields of leather like their poorer cavalry brethren, they wear helmets of moslty Numidian and Punic design with some Greek influence. The Nobles of the tribal era, when Numidia became more heavily influenced by Greek and Phoenician styles and the populace became more semi-nomadic, use tube and yoke corselets of leather and linen as well as scale mail armour and use bronze circular shields, they wear mostly Hellenic influenced helms. Eventually Numidia became increasingly settled and agricultural and adopted armour, tactics and styles from not only Greece but also Italy, Spain and Gaul. The Nobles of that era use heavy mail armour and carry bronze and iron shields as well as using helms influenced by Roman designs in addition to Hellenic helms and the traditional Numidian pointed helm.
History: Historically, in Numidia there was a class of nobles that ruled under the chiefs and kings and later under the sole king of Numidia. These nobles existed in both parts of Numidia, Numidia as it is known today which was dominated by the Massylians, and further north west where the area was dominated by the Masaesylian Numidians. These nobles often acted as the bodyguards and royal soldiers of the king, particularly under the reign of Jugurtha. In Sallust’s account of the Jugurthine war he mentions that in a route, only the Royal Cavalry could be counted upon to remain at the King’s side and not disperse into the countryside. The term GLDGMTK used here is from the Libyan dialect spoken by the Numidians and comes from several noble titles on inscriptions from the town of Thugga. The title translates loosely as 'Prefect of Fifty'. The other common title in Thugga was 'Chief of One Hundred'.
The higher class of cavalry in ancient Numidia evolved with the changing times from their earlier nomadic lifestyle to their settled existence where they became heavily influenced by Phoenician, Greek and Roman styles. In their earlier days they were likely equipped in the same manner as Massaesylian and Mauretanian cavalry with animal hides acting as their armour. In later ages panoplies of linothorax armour and bronze scales are found in Numidia. By the fall of Carthage the Numidian kings are depicted wearing chain mail and this increasing move toward heavier elite cavalry may be what caused the Numidian Nobles to be replaced as bodyguards by Spanish and Gallic mercenary cavalry. Later than this the Romans record Juba II using a form of cavalry which they describe as being very similar to the professional bodyguards of Augustus and the early Emperors. Whether this is a similarity due to both using European cavalry such as Gauls, Iberians and Germans, or whether this was a move back to native cavalry using arms inspired by foreign styles is unclear.
The earliest myths regarding the nomadic tribes we today call berbers come from the greeks. they claimed that when Herakles died in Spain and his army dispersed the Persians, Medians, and Indians crossed over to Africa. there they began conquering the indigenous tribes of gaetulians and Libyans. the Medians became the Maures, or Mauretanians in western Morocco and the Persians, or Indians depending on the versian, became the nomads, or Numidians.
The name 'Numidian' means nomad as the Numidians were a semi-nomadic people dwelling in modern Algeria, Tunisia, and parts of eastern Morocco.
The Earliest known ruler of the Numidians was a man named Ailymas, or Alyamus, who appears in the account by Diodorus Siculus of Agathocles' invasion of North Africa. though the text refers to all native North Africans as Libyans, Ailymas is described as coming from the area we identify as Numidia.
It is commonly hypothesized that Ailymas ruled the Numidian town of Thugga, modern Dougga, and was the ancestor of Zelalsen, who is the gradfather of the well known Massinissa.
The Massylian tribe began rising to dominance under Gala, son of Zelalsen, who followed his father's conquests capturing the later capital of Cirta and even attacking Carthaginian territory. By the second Punic war, however, Gala had allied with Carthage and sent his eldest son, Massinissa, to aid carthage in Spain. While Massinissa was away Gala died from old age and his brother Oezalces came to the throne. He soon passed on as well and the throne came to his eldest son who was older than Massinissa. A distant relative named Meztule disagreed with this arangement and defeated and killed the new king, placing his younger brother Lacumaze on the throne. As Lacumaze was younger than Massinissa this went against the royal tradition.
At this time Massinissa had recently been captured and won over by Scipio, later Africanus, and returned home via Mauretania to settle his succession. After defeating Meztule and Lacumaze in battle Massinissa showed mercy and let them live. Carthage was soon defeated and Massinissa's territory expanded drastically.
Nearing the end of his reign Massinissa began to put pressure on Carthage, forcing them into confrontation. Rome took this as occasion to declare war on Carthage. Shortly afterwards Massinissa died at over 90 years of age leaving the kingdom to his three eldest sons. Two died from disease leaving the kingdom ruled solely by Micipsa.
When Micipsa died he left the kingdom to his two sons and his adopted nephew Jugurtha. tempted by promises of wealth, and believing his cousins to be plotting against him, jugurtha murdered his brothers. Though he bought off Rome for a time the Senate eventually could not stand his actions and defeated him in the war that made Gaius Marius famous.
After Jugurtha was delivered to Rome his brother was left in control of Numidia and the nation remained peaceful until the reign of Juba I aside from a minor coup against Hiempsal II which ultimately failed. During the reign of Juba I the civil war between Caesar and Pompey occured. Juba chose the side of Pompey and was eventually defeated by Caesar. His son, Juba II, was raised in Rome and married to Cleopatra Selene, daughter of Mark Anthony and Cleopatra VII, before being reinstated to the throne of Numidia. Juba II contended with the revolt of Tacfarinas during his reign as well as general resentment of his Romanization from the populace. As a result Juba moved his capital to Caesarea and changed his title to king of Mauretania. Juba II was a scholar king who wrote many books, including a history of carthage, spoke Punic, Numidian, Latin and greek, and was the first to explore the Canary islands fully. Unfortunately, like so many ancient authors, none of his works have survived.
His son Ptolemy of Mauretania ruled after him until 40 AD when his cousin, the Emperor Caligula, ordered him assassinated and annexed the kingdom. After Ptolemy's death his servant Aedemonus lead a revolt against Caligula but was defeated.
Though descendants of the Massylian line continued to live on in different Mediterranean provinces, the kingdom of Numidia was no more.
We hope you have enjoyed this preview of some of the new faction and units.
Please note that unless stated otherwise, ALL pictures, names, and descriptions shown in our previews are works in progress. We continue to improve on all parts of EB, and we will continue to do so long after our initial release.
Since some areas where these news items are posted cannot handle wide images, we appreciate your restraint from quoting full-size images.
As always, if you have questions or comments, the best place to post them is here, where the EB team is most active:
Europa Barbarorum ORG forum
Europa Barbarorum TWC forum
We give special thanks to Image Shack that provides us with a simple, foolproof, and free way to show you all these pictures each week.
Have a great day!
Regards,
The Europa Barbarorum team.
Here are a couple of signature banners for fans. The traditional one and one featuring Caratacos' Numidian Nobles:
https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/...lia2smallh.jpg https://img198.imageshack.us/img198/...lia2bsmall.jpg
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Awesomeawesomeawesome.:2thumbsup:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Whoa, whoa whoa!
Saw it coming, but still, I like it when the team releases teasers.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Really nice stuff!
Will these fellas eventually get to recruit imitation roman troops, or the ability to bribe romans to join their army?
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taliferno
Really nice stuff!
Will these fellas eventually get to recruit imitation roman troops, or the ability to bribe romans to join their army?
This faction will include certain unit reforms, however the specifics of which have not been hammered out yet. Currently we are focusing on the early period of our campaign for all factions.
Foot
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Ow this EBII preview made me horny!:sweatdrop:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Great work, EB-team!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taliferno
Will these fellas eventually get to recruit imitation roman troops, or the ability to bribe romans to join their army?
Yes (Dorkim Numidim, look in the preview) and no.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
New nomad system, lovely stuff! :2thumbsup:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
:thumbsup: with possibility of including so many extra factions Numidian faction certainly deserves an inclusion.
excellent models btw!
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Awesome!!! This will make playing Carthage so much more interesting. The high quality of the previews more than makes up for their relative infrequency.
What will Massylia's victory conditions look like?
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Now we also know how the city/castle system will be used. Keep up the awesomeness!
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Wow! Great to see Massylia confirmed as a faction in the game.
I never cease to be amazed by the hard work your team must put into this. Thank you!
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Massylia nomad? I was under the impression they were a rich settled people...
Nice to see them, BTW.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Nice preview :2thumbsup:
Are these:
https://img37.imageshack.us/img37/2108/ni1.jpg
The "Roman style" Numidian infantry??
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Oh my god. I Just started working on a mini mod for them in EB1. I was calling them the Masaesyli. Could I use this name instead? Or would that be illegal. Can I have permission? Yes? No? Maybe So?
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Christopher Burgoyne
Massylia nomad? I was under the impression they were a rich settled people...
Nice to see them, BTW.
At our start point they still retain much of their nomadic lifestyle. They will later develop into a rich and settled nation, and such social and political reform will be possible in the campaign.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dutchhoplite
If you read the description you will see that these represent the infantry that were used before the "Roman style" Numidian infantry were developed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ghaust the Moor
Oh my god. I Just started working on a mini mod for them in EB1. I was calling them the Masaesyli. Could I use this name instead? Or would that be illegal. Can I have permission? Yes? No? Maybe So?
I'm sure that Tanit would not have a problem with that. Of course, please do give credit, as it was his work on the language that made it possible to use this name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
penguinking
Awesome!!! This will make playing Carthage so much more interesting. The high quality of the previews more than makes up for their relative infrequency.
What will Massylia's victory conditions look like?
We are working on that currently, however it will certainly include plenty of North Africa, and may also include some parts of Iberia, Sicily, and mayhap even italy.
Foot
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
:applause: Excellent review! ~:thumb:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Foot
This faction will include certain unit reforms, however the specifics of which have not been hammered out yet. Currently we are focusing on the early period of our campaign for all factions.
Does that include the current Dorkim Numidim? The equipment shown here is clearly inspired by Roman legionaries: I doubt they would have used the combination of Gallic shields and Iberian swords before the Romans entered the area.
Edit: you posted while I was typing my answer, but I do think the current unit is too Roman-like for the early Numidians.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Foot
I'm sure that Tanit would not have a problem with that. Of course, please do give credit, as it was his work on the language that made it possible to use this name.
Foot
Cool, thank you. I will defidently give credit to the EB team and Tanit in particuler. I can't wait for EBII to come out now. :wall::wall:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Another great preview. We just Keep the Faith in the EB team. :cheerleader:
~:cheers:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Great preview.:2thumbsup:
The description of the skirmishers sounds as if their melee weapon will be knives instead of spears (like in EB I). Also, will the skirmisher cavalry use overhand spears?
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Awesome, finally a new faction! :2thumbsup:
I really like the look of those infantry.
I'm wondering though, looking at the date of Pergamon announcement. Will we get a faction announcement once a year? If thats the case we'll just have to wait 8 more years for EB2. :clown:
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Re : Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Totally awesome!!! Can't wait till the next preview :2thumbsup::2thumbsup::2thumbsup:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Hurrah. Another preview. Awesome.
Take that the 74% of people who didn't favour massiliya*.
*According to a poll.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Really really great... Having this faction will really increase the difficulty and depth when playing as Carthage
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AW: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Most beautiful.
I'm not so often at the EBII section, can't you create a little thread over at the EBI part to direct attention to your awesome previews?
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Amazingness in it´s greatest form, as always... i specially love the use of the castle/city mechanic :idea2:
One thing i missed thought, is to see some of these numidian hats that the archers are supposed to have, like the ones of the rtw numidian archers.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
athanaric
Great preview.:2thumbsup:
The description of the skirmishers sounds as if their melee weapon will be knives instead of spears (like in EB I). Also, will the skirmisher cavalry use overhand spears?
Yes, knives it is. And the cavalry retains a javelin for combat as it says in the description.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
Edit: you posted while I was typing my answer, but I do think the current unit is too Roman-like for the early Numidians.
The intent is to recreate the early infantry which was inspired by the swords and oval shields used in Africa. The more scutum looking thureos shield is inspired by Carthage at this time, not only with its own use of the shield type, but also with the use of the shield type by foreign mercenaries such as Celts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucefalo
One thing i missed thought, is to see some of these numidian hats that the archers are supposed to have, like the ones of the rtw numidian archers.
Actually that was a slight mis-communication, the hat will be there eventually.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Stellar preview, amazing, I love it!:D
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Looks great, and should add a lot of flavour to north Africa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanit
The intent is to recreate the early infantry which was inspired by the swords and oval shields used in Africa. The more scutum looking thureos shield is inspired by Carthage at this time, not only with its own use of the shield type, but also with the use of the shield type by foreign mercenaries such as Celts.
If these are early infantry, why do their shields have round bosses which only appeared around the 2nd c. BC? I would think that the thureos would have been the primary shield in use at this time, given its popularity among the Carthaginians.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
AWESOMEZ!!
a numidian faction-I was dreaming of just such a thing!:smash::smash:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
A very good decision for this faction and wonderful work for the settlements and units. It's fantastic again to see how you use the M2TW engine (so much better than vanilla) for small but important differences in unit appearance. That variety adds so much flavour.
But one remark: I find the models of the skirmishers rather, äh, beefy ("fat" was the first thought when I saw them, sorry). The model of the melee infantry unit seems to be leaner and better looking.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Ooooh I really like the nomadic system/castle use. Does this mean that if an AI Carthage takes over a nomad camp, they would automatically turn it into a permanent settlement?
And I really like the history of this faction. They seem like the underdogs fighting against big bad Carthage... and I love playing underdog factions! Now there's some competition as to which faction will be in my first AAR...
Thanks EB team!
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
geala
A very good decision for this faction and wonderful work for the settlements and units. It's fantastic again to see how you use the M2TW engine (so much better than vanilla) for small but important differences in unit appearance. That variety adds so much flavour.
But one remark: I find the models of the skirmishers rather, äh, beefy ("fat" was the first thought when I saw them, sorry). The model of the melee infantry unit seems to be leaner and better looking.
well, perhaps they are beefy looking, but then again, almost all M2TW models come out that way-lord knows why..probably the posture.
from Bruenswick-lueneburg?
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Excellent work!!!:2thumbsup: :bow: :2thumbsup:
Besides other beautifu stuff it seems that the transformation from nomadic to settled lifestyle (which I loved in EB1 Pahlava) will get much more depth and breadth with your new castle/city system. I am looking forward to play it very much! :yes:
And kudos to your modellers/skinners for their work on bodies and faces. Subjectively, I found M2TW graphics actually much worse than RTW-EB one, because of the (mostly) ugly faces and I was worried how EBII will eventually come out. I am worried no more now! Thanks!!!:beam:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
YES!!! Numidia gets its rightful place :-D
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
geala
But one remark: I find the models of the skirmishers rather, äh, beefy ("fat" was the first thought when I saw them, sorry). The model of the melee infantry unit seems to be leaner and better looking.
All our models use the same base-model. This ensures that our men are all of the same proportions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BerkeleyBoi
Ooooh I really like the nomadic system/castle use. Does this mean that if an AI Carthage takes over a nomad camp, they would automatically turn it into a permanent settlement?
In fact, just the opposite. A settled faction will have a hard time holding onto a nomadic province, and vice versa.
Foot
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Oh wonderful! I think this faction is a very good choice, b/c it focuses the whole Carthago setting a bit more to North Africa. Will be very interesting!
Good job EB team & best of luck for your project!
Subedei
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanit
Actually that was a slight mis-communication, the hat will be there eventually.
Thanks for the quick answer. After playing EB i can´t imagine numidian archers without their cool hats :beam:
Also, i am amazed at how realistic looking the units of EB II will look like, as it was a sort of history documental instead of a video game. I must put my numidian hat off :2thumbsup:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Great preview! :2thumbsup:
I wonder whether MTW allows to have several bodies, depending on the faction/unit? Imagine what giant, fat, rough Gauls, Massylians and other barbarian elite warriors would do to less 'bodybuilded' levies... Maybe the extra body mass and muscles could somehow represent age differentiations?
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
This will make Sicily a whole lot easier for me to take! Does this mean the Romans/Carthaginians will be able to train more Numidian unit types if they built an allied gov't in Siga?
And what will their economy start out as? Will they have a stable econ at the start or more of Saba's case of ending up in debt on the 2nd turn?
And lastly, will they have any sorts of reforms? I guessing they'll have a Roman type reform.
Oh and great job!
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
So cool guys! This really is going to be worth waiting for!
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phalanx300
I'm wondering though, looking at the date of Pergamon announcement. Will we get a faction announcement once a year? If thats the case we'll just have to wait 8 more years for EB2. :clown:
As our model parts database gets filled with many reusable parts for the models, work progresses faster, although the wide scope of the project requires more modelers and skinners than those we currently have.
As a sidenote, I want to say that we will welcome any talented modeler or skinner that wishes to join us (but only if he/she really has time to spare for EBII).
Getting back to the answer, I can say that we're already working on the next previews (those who read EBTwitter can try to guess which), and they should be out very soon. So, stay tuned!
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Brilliant! A preview the day before I come back to the forums. This inspired me to start my first EB campaign in five months!
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MeinPanzer
Looks great, and should add a lot of flavour to north Africa.
If these are early infantry, why do their shields have round bosses which only appeared around the 2nd c. BC? I would think that the thureos would have been the primary shield in use at this time, given its popularity among the Carthaginians.
That unit was originally supposed to be a later addition to the numidian army, however this was changed after the model was created. Eventually the design of the shields will change (and there will more oval shields present), but at the moment we've had to move on.
Foot
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
I remember someone from the team (Moros IIRC) writing that there will be a new nomad faction in EB2 different from the current EB1 and that will be his favourite, now we know which.
Great preview and looking forward to see their full unit rooster.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
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Originally Posted by
Andronikos
I remember someone from the team (Moros IIRC) writing that there will be a new nomad faction in EB2 different from the current EB1 and that will be his favourite, now we know which.
Great preview and looking forward to see their full unit rooster.
I NEVER said there would be ONE new nomad faction now did I? :bounce:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
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Originally Posted by
Moros
I NEVER said there would be ONE new nomad faction now did I? :bounce:
So youre saying that you never said that There would be not just ONE ?
:lipsrsealed2:
Run eddy Run !
You revealed the Morosecrecyplanofowningourasses:)hahaha
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Wow, this is a great preview! Thanks to the EB team for their hard work.:2thumbsup:
And how do pronounce the native name of the Numidian noble cavalry? And would it be better to have the Saka use the Eastern culture instead of the Steppe culture? So when the Saka settle and take settled lands the settlement will look settled and their steppe lands will look nomadic?
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaesarAugustus
I love EB.
Agreed.
And this preview is starting to make me crazy.....
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lenin96
Wow, this is a great preview! Thanks to the EB team for their hard work.:2thumbsup:
And how do pronounce the native name of the Numidian noble cavalry?
To be honest, we have no idea. Hence why it is written in only consonants as most semitic languages were. Many 'Old Libyan' words have had their vowels figured out, but not this one. This may occur with some arabian units as well. Much of our language knowledge comes from inscriptions written in consonants only as opposed to more elaborate texts such as the Torah which include 'vowel pointing'.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
:jumping::jumping::jumping: :jumping::jumping::jumping: :jumping::jumping::jumping: :jumping::jumping::jumping: :jumping::jumping::jumping:
:jumping::jumping::jumping: :jumping::jumping::jumping: :jumping::jumping::jumping: :jumping::jumping::jumping: :jumping::jumping::jumping:
:jumping::jumping::jumping: :jumping::jumping::jumping: :jumping::jumping::jumping: :jumping::jumping::jumping: :jumping::jumping::jumping:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lenin96
And would it be better to have the Saka use the Eastern culture instead of the Steppe culture? So when the Saka settle and take settled lands the settlement will look settled and their steppe lands will look nomadic?
If you read the preview carefully you will see that because of the castle/city dichotomy, each faction will have two different settlement models, the castle representing the nomadic settlements, the city representing the settled models. What is true for the semetic culture is also true for the steppe culture.
Foot
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JMRC
As our model parts database gets filled with many reusable parts for the models, work progresses faster, although the wide scope of the project requires more modelers and skinners than those we currently have.
As a sidenote, I want to say that we will welcome any talented modeler or skinner that wishes to join us (but only if he/she really has time to spare for EBII).
Getting back to the answer, I can say that we're already working on the next previews (those who read EBTwitter can try to guess which), and they should be out very soon. So, stay tuned!
Thats great news! :2thumbsup:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanit
To be honest, we have no idea. Hence why it is written in only consonants as most semitic languages were. Many 'Old Libyan' words have had their vowels figured out, but not this one. This may occur with some arabian units as well. Much of our language knowledge comes from inscriptions written in consonants only as opposed to more elaborate texts such as the Torah which include 'vowel pointing'.
Indeed sabaic will have not that many vowels either. It's because the only true vowels ther wrote were their equilavent of the arabian aleph and ein.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanit
The intent is to recreate the early infantry which was inspired by the swords and oval shields used in Africa. The more scutum looking thureos shield is inspired by Carthage at this time, not only with its own use of the shield type, but also with the use of the shield type by foreign mercenaries such as Celts.
I accept that both the scutum and the gladius, or equivalent short sword, could be present, it's just the combination that surprises me. I know it's not uniquely Roman, but in EB1 you generally saw the scutum combined with a spear (for example the Carthaginians had two basic scutum-and-spear units and one elite scutum-and-sword one). For basic Numidian infantry, the spear seems more likely to me, as it is cheaper and better against the cavalry that would be their primary enemy. Later, under Roman influence and training, they could have switched to the sword, but I doubt this was the case in 272 B.C.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ludens
I accept that both the scutum and the gladius, or equivalent short sword, could be present, it's just the combination that surprises me. I know it's not uniquely Roman, but in EB1 you generally saw the scutum combined with a spear (for example the Carthaginians had two basic scutum-and-spear units and one elite scutum-and-sword one). For basic Numidian infantry, the spear seems more likely to me, as it is cheaper and better against the cavalry that would be their primary enemy. Later, under Roman influence and training, they could have switched to the sword, but I doubt this was the case in 272 B.C.
That is actually not a gladius present there, a gladius has a slight bulge in one portion of the sword. The straightsword present in the Numidian infantry is a shortsword version of the Taureg sword, a lasting influence of ancient Berber culture in North Africa today.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Wow, looks great. Just one thing, wouldn't they most likely have used an ancestor of one of the modern Berber languages spoken in Tunisia rather than Punic?
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanit
That is actually not a gladius present there, a gladius has a slight bulge in one portion of the sword. The straightsword present in the Numidian infantry is a shortsword version of the Taureg sword, a lasting influence of ancient Berber culture in North Africa today.
I see. That's doesn't invalidate my argument, though.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KingOfTheIsles
Wow, looks great. Just one thing, wouldn't they most likely have used an ancestor of one of the modern Berber languages spoken in Tunisia rather than Punic?
Care to suggest one? Punic was obviously not their native tongue, however we have no knowledge of their native tongue apart from a few inscriptions (the name of the noble unit is taken from one such inscription). Punic was the language of trade in that region, and is the most appropriate as we cannot reliably construct the language or many languages of that region.
Foot
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KingOfTheIsles
Wow, looks great. Just one thing, wouldn't they most likely have used an ancestor of one of the modern Berber languages spoken in Tunisia rather than Punic?
Yes they would have, hence the name for the Numidian nobles 'GLDGMKT'. However, the language you refer to, 'Old Libyan', is poorly understood whereas Punic is relatively well understood. To the Libyans Punic would have represented what Latin represented in the middle ages, the educated language of the nobility and scholars. Thus until such time as proper Old Libyan terms for the units can be created Punic works as an acceptable substitute.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Yes, unfortunately it seems that Berber languages are pretty much extinct in Tunisia. I'm no expert on the languages, but there are a couple of reaonably widely-spoken ones still in existence in Algeria, namely Chaouia and Kabyle. I guess it would be a lot more difficult to find a speaker of one of those languages than a hebrew speaker, and it would be impossible to say just how close the modern language would be to the ancient language too.
Quote:
Yes they would have, hence the name for the Numidian nobles 'GLDGMKT'. However, the language you refer to, 'Old Libyan', is poorly understood whereas Punic is relatively well understood. To the Libyans Punic would have represented what Latin represented in the middle ages, the educated language of the nobility and scholars. Thus until such time as proper Old Libyan terms for the units can be created Punic works as an acceptable substitute.
That's a pretty sound reason. Do you have any idea of a particular language still alive today that could be considered its cloesest ancestor?
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
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Originally Posted by
Foot
If you read the description you will see that these represent the infantry that were used before the "Roman style" Numidian infantry were developed.
Does this mean there will be a later, "roman influenced" unit? (Am I asking too much?)
P.S.
@Tanit: I didn't forget your PM, will try to follow it up ASAP
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Zarax, I imagine Numidia will be getting a couple reforms. After all, they have bodyguards from THREE different eras. :dancing:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Marvelous work, EB team. I never cease to be amazed at your dedication.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Yes the Numidians have several reforms they can go through. As for the closest related language to 'Old Libyan'? That's a tough one. Among ancient languages it is clearly related to semitic languages, though to what degree I do not know. It uses the same styles but clearly different words, such as using GLD for 'ruler' where Punic and Hebrew use different forms of Malek. Among modern languages it is certainly related to Berber, but berber is also clearly influenced by arabic due to the Muslim occupation.
I did read one article which attempted to equate Old Libyan with ancient Etruscan. It made some convincing arguments and showed significant similarities in terminology but I do not know what became of that study.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Anything that tries to link any language to Etruscan or isolates is probably done with a clearly partial intent.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Foot
If you read the preview carefully you will see that because of the castle/city dichotomy, each faction will have two different settlement models, the castle representing the nomadic settlements, the city representing the settled models. What is true for the semetic culture is also true for the steppe culture.
Foot
As much as I like the idea of nomad settlements for steppe/nomad cultures, I'm curious how the castle/city system will be used with the more civilized cultures, that had abandoned nomadism? Or is this to be revealed in a later preview...?
Anyways, a nice update, though the Numidians weren't exactly a surprise to be chosen to be included... (Their exclusion being quite a surprise when I first downloaded EB 0.8x or whicheveritwas)
Good news that EBII's progressing. :yes:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
apsolutely great work sirs, I'll wait with patience 'till the one day, EBII will be released.
by the way, will there be the possibillity to play EBII in hotseat mode? then I'll collapse :dizzy2:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Great work with the preview!
Quote:
The Numidian kings recognized this fact and would later attempt to rectify it with a rigorous training program built under the Roman design.
Blatant hinting of reforms I see! :2thumbsup:
And I'm guessing this is the faction from the Twitter post, for judging by the preview Mamla'ha biMassylim seems rather "reform heavy": "Adding the government building for a new faction. Quite a few reforms for this one! - Foot3:53 PM May 23rd from web".
Also, if Mamla'ha biMassylim are going to be heavy on the reform side, further kudos for branching more in-depth reforms outside of the Romani.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The General
As much as I like the idea of nomad settlements for steppe/nomad cultures, I'm curious how the castle/city system will be used with the more civilized cultures, that had abandoned nomadism? Or is this to be revealed in a later preview...?
For all factions and for all cultures, "castle" provinces will be for those provinces with a nomadic/pastoral social lifestyle, and "city" provinces will be for those with a settled/agricultural social lifestyle. When a civilised faction conquers a "castle" province, they will be conquering the lands of a nomadic people, and the type of buildings they can construct in such a province will be different and far more limited than their options in a "city" province.
Foot
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
I knew this faction would be included. Unlike the other nomad factions I might love playing an extensive campaign with this one instead of just blitzing into the required regions for heavy foot troop reforms (Saka).
The whole underdog against the mighty Carthage and the dealings with the enemy of my enemy Rome, will make the campaign very much exciting for me.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
:jawdrop::fainting:
took my breath away!
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Great work. Only thing is, "Afrikanim" seems very, very sketchy. "Lubi" was the name of Africa AFAIK.
Old Libyan is nothing like Etruscan. Etruscan is closely linked to Raetic, and both are languages isolate. Libyan is part of the Berber languages, a division of Afro-Asiatic, which includes Semitic, Cushitic, and Chadic.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Made me drooling more for EB 2 :yes:
Great models...:2thumbsup:
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Fantastic job (as usual)!
And now we better can keep on waiting for the next preview.
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
A great void in the desert is no longer!!!! I thougth we would have two Numidians factios, still one is better than none and the great void will be filled! Great Preview!
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Re: Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gamegeek2
Great work. Only thing is, "Afrikanim" seems very, very sketchy. "Lubi" was the name of Africa AFAIK.
Old Libyan is nothing like Etruscan. Etruscan is closely linked to Raetic, and both are languages isolate. Libyan is part of the Berber languages, a division of Afro-Asiatic, which includes Semitic, Cushitic, and Chadic.
Here's a database of reconstructed proto-Berber, should it be decided to make the attempt:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/res...\brbet&first=1
