Xanthippos?

Whats the deal with this guy? does he just "spawn" at 255 BC? I ask coz when i sent Scipio to africa the 2nd time to annoy the hell out of the Carthaginians i saw him standing in the world map, his Biography says he helps Carthage in a battle against Rome and i've also read in that he then returned to Sparte. So again does he just "spawn" exactly at 255? :book:

To note he just became the governor of Karth-Hadast with the recent death of the Sophet which even though i hate the carthaginians i find it disturbing to see a "outsider" governing the capital of my rival:wall:

Xanthippos will spawn in 255(Or something like that) if the Romans are at war with Carthage. He can be real useful, as Spartans>Hastati(Or Principes. Or Triarii.). About him govorning Carthage, well, that's just weird.

Well i can 1 of 2 things., siege and take Carthage thus killing him or bait him to attack me outside the city:beam: Assassinating wont work seeing even my best killer has only a 7% chance:sweatdrop:

Even Spartiatai are easy to kill off if you know what you're doing. But as the Romaioi Barbaroi, I doubt you'll do much anyway. You'll need some proper phalanxes to do that.

Maion

I actually already killed him, He faced off with my Golden Chevroned Trirarii and got owned hehehe Lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valion

I actually already killed him, He faced off with my Golden Chevroned Trirarii and got owned hehehe Lol

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Way to go Valion! You put those arrogant Greek barbarians in their place!

Maion, shud I lol at that statement?

Yeah, probably. Especially since this bloke doesn't even know the definition of "barbaros".

Such illiterality...*sigh*

Maion

hey don't mad with xannthiphos.... just bribe him...

Ehhh... it is the Romans that are "barbarian" to the Greeks, to the Romans the Greeks were (or became in the period 200 BC- 148 BC) a people admired for their cultural achievements, but viewed with contempt for their lack ot other achievements and constant internal squabbling and infighting in a world that the Romans percieved themselves as conquering and bringing order in. Romans contemptuously called the Greeks "Graeculi" "Little Greeks", so use that instead of "barbarian" if you want to insult the Greeks and Hellene Lovers. bararian is a Greek word and though most cultures around the world understand the concept (us = good, the others = bad), the Greeks refined and named it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

Ehhh... it is the Romans that are "barbarian" to the Greeks, to the Romans the Greeks were (or became in the period 200 BC- 148 BC) a people admired for their cultural achievements, but viewed with contempt for their lack ot other achievements and constant internal squabbling and infighting in a world that the Romans percieved themselves as conquering and bringing order in. Romans contemptuously called the Greeks "Graeculi" "Little Greeks", so use that instead of "barbarian" if you want to insult the Greeks and Hellene Lovers. bararian is a Greek word and though most cultures around the world understand the concept (us = good, the others = bad), the Greeks refined and named it.

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Yes. The word "barbaros" is GREEK and it means NON-GREEK. The usage we have of it today is completely different.

Maion

i belive the only people who arent barbaroi are the celts. THey were far more civilaized.

They evented soup for god sake, what we do without soup?

Romans and greeks they smell, very bad.
Apart the hair stlyles of the celts are way more cool

Well, it seems it meant various things at various times. Wiki has an ok article on it.

The point is, just like it is a bit silly to quote cato but change Carthage to Rome, thus showing Roman dominace of our thoughts, it is equally silly to call Greeks barbarians...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven

i belive the only people who arent barbaroi are the celts. THey were far more civilaized.

They evented soup for god sake, what we do without soup?

Romans and greeks they smell, very bad.
Apart the hair stlyles of the celts are way more cool

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Yes soup is a staple of our diet, and it can be delicious as well ;-)

Sorry could not help that.

Whatever you think the Greco-(Roman) term is the original one, you cannot invent a new usage of the word. You can say that you find Celts more amenable and such, but to call them more civilised and the only non-barbarians goes against the usage of the word. It is like deciding to call round square instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven

i belive the only people who arent barbaroi are the celts. THey were far more civilaized.

They evented soup for god sake, what we do without soup?

Romans and greeks they smell, very bad.
Apart the hair stlyles of the celts are way more cool

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Dude, can't you read? The word BARBAROS means NON-GREEK. It's usage was not the same as we use today (smelly, unsicilized, etc).

And don't give me the Keltoi shit the rest of you Celt-lovers brag about. Fighting naked, sleeping with my fellow soldiers, and living in shacks and cottages isn't what I would call "civilized" my friend. Also, PLEASE don't give me the soap (not soup dude) shit all over again. If it was so effective, the Romaioi (who had a fetish for cleanliness) would have adopted the custom. You even know what a primitive form of soap looks like? Just a filthy-looking (and probably smelling as well) blob of fat and salts, that's ALL there is.

Also, I hate moustaches. What you say about hairstyles is purely subjective, doesn't have anything to do with someone being civilized or not. Not to mention that if you have ever done some reading in your life, you'd know that most houses had baths in them in Ancient Greece. They had scented oils and various perfumes (the scraping off oil was used by those who excersiced, NOT for personal hygiene) to make them smell much better than a soap-using Keltos. There were also many public baths in Ancient Greece, and plentiful of them. As for Rome, you all know how obsessed they were with personal hygiene.

Sheesh.

Maion

^-- Someone's acting like a Raving Barbaroi today...

Besides, the only civilization is the Middle Kingdom.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

Dude, can't you read? The word BARBAROS means NON-GREEK. It's usage was not the same as we use today (smelly, unsicilized, etc).

And don't give me the Keltoi shit the rest of you Celt-lovers brag about. Fighting naked, sleeping with my fellow soldiers, and living in shacks and cottages isn't what I would call "civilized" my friend. Also, PLEASE don't give me the soap (not soup dude) shit all over again. If it was so effective, the Romaioi (who had a fetish for cleanliness) would have adopted the custom. You even know what a primitive form of soap looks like? Just a filthy-looking (and probably smelling as well) blob of fat and salts, that's ALL there is.

Also, I hate moustaches. What you say about hairstyles is purely subjective, doesn't have anything to do with someone being civilized or not. Not to mention that if you have ever done some reading in your life, you'd know that most houses had baths in them in Ancient Greece. They had scented oils and various perfumes (the scraping off oil was used by those who excersiced, NOT for personal hygiene) to make them smell much better than a soap-using Keltos. There were also many public baths in Ancient Greece, and plentiful of them. As for Rome, you all know how obsessed they were with personal hygiene.

Sheesh.

Maion

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Easy Maion, easy...

Yeah right AS. We've seen you too...

Oh, and I'm not going to be easy. Not when I see such posts persisting.

Maion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

Yeah right AS. We've seen you too...

Oh, and I'm not going to be easy. Not when I see such posts persisting.

Maion

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Semi-flaming the poster is not going to ease his enlightenment Maion. In fact it makes him more resistant to what enlightenment you actually bring him.

Edited to add. If I started out by calling you a stupid, unenlightened idiot you would listen even less to my points where I consider Rome superior to Hellas would you not?

Not that you are, but if you want to enlighten people- no matter how stupid they are- it is always best to approach them with at least some politeness and respect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

Dude, can't you read? The word BARBAROS means NON-GREEK. It's usage was not the same as we use today (smelly, unsicilized, etc).

And don't give me the Keltoi shit the rest of you Celt-lovers brag about. Fighting naked, sleeping with my fellow soldiers, and living in shacks and cottages isn't what I would call "civilized" my friend. Also, PLEASE don't give me the soap (not soup dude) shit all over again. If it was so effective, the Romaioi (who had a fetish for cleanliness) would have adopted the custom. You even know what a primitive form of soap looks like? Just a filthy-looking (and probably smelling as well) blob of fat and salts, that's ALL there is.

Also, I hate moustaches. What you say about hairstyles is purely subjective, doesn't have anything to do with someone being civilized or not. Not to mention that if you have ever done some reading in your life, you'd know that most houses had baths in them in Ancient Greece. They had scented oils and various perfumes (the scraping off oil was used by those who excersiced, NOT for personal hygiene) to make them smell much better than a soap-using Keltos. There were also many public baths in Ancient Greece, and plentiful of them. As for Rome, you all know how obsessed they were with personal hygiene.

Sheesh.

Maion

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If i can read..well i guess not! :dizzy2: im not civilized after all. Dude :laugh4:

About the soap, you can find those in stores even today, are those blue and white bars, they also very good to wash clothes. They are efective for your information.


You konw the meaning of civilized people is very subjective and relative. How can you say one people is better or superior then another. :no:
"history was writen by the victors"- Wiston Churchil

Also are you trying to persuade me that i should like more the greeks or romans then the keltoi??´
I mean why? your speach seems going in that direction. Of course hairs styles are subjéctive. but are you discussing tastes?? i like who i dam want. they dont need be "civilized"

How can you juge me, if i read or not? do you kown me? i read a alot, and i kown what you just said, but im talking about tastes and you are talking about historical facts, so dont use then to cover arguments wich cant be cover by facts.


You people should understand that my post was in jest, and i have the right to show my content, or discontent with any faction, i currently playing, or not playing.
Dont take everthing so dam serious.

And Sheesh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven

If i can read..well i guess not! :dizzy2: im not civilized after all. Dude :laugh4:

About the soap, you can find those in stores even today, are those blue and white bars, they also very good to wash clothes. They are efective for your information.


You konw the meaning of civilized people is very subjective and relative. How can you say one people is better or superior then another. :no:

Also are you trying to persuade me that i should like more the greeks or romans then the keltoi??´
I mean why? your speach seems going in that direction. Of course hairs styles are subjéctive. but are you discussin tastes?? i like who i dam want. they dont need be "civilized"

How can you juge me, if i read or not? do you kown me? i read a alot, and i kown what you just said, but im talking about tastes and you are talking about historical facts, so dont use then to cover arguments wich cant be cover by facts.

And Sheesh

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Welll historically there is probably some greek definition of what is civilized... But I agree with you... The celts were very much an advanced civilization... as for what is civilized... yeah that is pretty subjective indeed... A Chinese man out of the EB period would find any non-chinese a barabrian (they used a different word of course, but I think it was even more derogatory then Barabaroi was), whether they had an advanced civilization or not.... I think many people on here mean with and advanced civilization, is one that is also a dominant power.... And politically the celts were very divided, That is not to say that they had long and complicated trade routs, a quite advanced system of governing and a very strong culture...

In fact the Chinese term may have been less deragotory.

From Wiki, which has an ok article on "Barbarian" as I already mentioned.

The Chinese (Han Chinese) of the Chinese Empire sometimes (depends on the dynasty, geographic location, and timeline) regarded the Xiongnu, Tatars, Turks, Mongols, Jurchens, Manchus, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese and Europeans as "barbaric". The Chinese used different terms for "barbarians" from different directions of the compass. Those in the east were called Dongyi (東夷), those in the west were called Xirong (西戎), those in the south were called Nanman (南蠻), and those in the north were called Beidi (北狄). However, despite the conventional translation of such terms (especially 夷) as "barbarian", in fact it is possible to translate them simply as 'outsider' or 'stranger', with far less offensive cultural connotations.

Right, OK dudes. I probably overreacted, but I get hot when seeing posts claiming that Celts cleaner and much more cvilized because they had soap. Besides, I never called anyone stupid or anything. I just said maybe some people need to bother reading posts before typing away, and probaby read some sources of their own instead of taking whatever the EB team throws them like pre-chewed food. Not that the EB team is wrong, but that doesn't mean you should listen to everyone before forming your own judgement based on your own experience and not solely upon something someone else says.

Obviously I'm not going to continue much longer, as this thread is already a good way to getting locked. What I want to show people is that Celts were not as "advanced" as as some people may like to believe. Yes, they had a good social structure, yes they had a fairly sophisticated (rhetorically, at least) language and yes, they were probably even some good scholars that were of Celtic origin. But if you come down to it, what remained of them? No written tradition, no development in sciences to speak of, no great epics at all, no marvelous monuments on par with the Parthenon for example, no language that managed to persist even until today.

And one last thing about the soaps: Modern soaps are quite different from the primitive forms civilizations like the Celts used. Yes, the basic composition is the same, but the effects and scents that go with modern soaps could never be accomplished hence they were sophisticated in Chemistry and had industries and laboratories to produce them. I don't argue that that kind of soap did its work, but I'm pretty sure the average hygiene of a Celt was (if not lower) at least on par with Hellenic/Roman societies. As I said, almost every Hellenic city had baths in almost every house, plus public baths. And washing with many other men is not filthy if the water is drained from the pool an renewed, which happened.

Maion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

Dude, can't you read? The word BARBAROS means NON-GREEK. It's usage was not the same as we use today (smelly, unsicilized, etc).

And don't give me the Keltoi shit the rest of you Celt-lovers brag about. Fighting naked, sleeping with my fellow soldiers, and living in shacks and cottages isn't what I would call "civilized" my friend. Also, PLEASE don't give me the soap (not soup dude) shit all over again. If it was so effective, the Romaioi (who had a fetish for cleanliness) would have adopted the custom. You even know what a primitive form of soap looks like? Just a filthy-looking (and probably smelling as well) blob of fat and salts, that's ALL there is.

Also, I hate moustaches. What you say about hairstyles is purely subjective, doesn't have anything to do with someone being civilized or not. Not to mention that if you have ever done some reading in your life, you'd know that most houses had baths in them in Ancient Greece. They had scented oils and various perfumes (the scraping off oil was used by those who excersiced, NOT for personal hygiene) to make them smell much better than a soap-using Keltos. There were also many public baths in Ancient Greece, and plentiful of them. As for Rome, you all know how obsessed they were with personal hygiene.

Sheesh.

Maion

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Oh my god, someone criticized ancient greeks on an internet forum. Time to get all angry and look ridiculous.

To put it bluntly, getting mad because someone made a poor joke about an ancient people with whom you likely don't share much other than living in the same general area is kind of ridiculous.

Detergent plus water beats just water hands down. Deal with it. I'd also note that the basic recipe for soap the Calts came up with was the peasant staple for a *very* long time (inasmuch as they now bathed, which wasn't all that much for a fairly lenghty period...) simply because it was quite effective and the necessary ingredients were readily available.
Also, AFAIK you can actually *eat* the stuff if need be, though it tastes like crud and probably doesn't digest terribly well.

Regarding the Celtic lanuages: Irish, Gaelic, Welsh and Scottish are still (direct) descendants from whatever the ancient Celts used to speak not? Just like modernday Greek is a descendant from the ancient dialects. Albeit a pretty close one.

I doubt that. Which language uses the same alphabet as the Celtic one? Didn't they have some weird symbols or something like that? Greek is the longest used alphabet, and modern Greek is a direct descendant from ancient, albeit adapted to modern needs.

Maion

I fail to see how teh alphabet is the least bit relevant, doubly so as the Celts weren't yet much for writing junk (though apparently *literacy* was common enough among the upper classes of Gaul at least; presumably, they borrowed the Roman script). And the Graeco-Roman alphabet is a direct descendant of the Phoenician one anyway...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Watchman

And the Graeco-Roman alphabet is a direct descendant of the Phoenician one anyway...

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We gree here.

Maion

Graeculi gets hot too fast, men, don't criticize ancient greece or you'll get flamed :asd:

only joking, Maion, put your keybord down and lay it back on your desk! XD

Sheesh, people, I just called the Greeks barbarians as a joke. I know the word originates from Greek. I didn't mean to start a flamewar. Just making a joke.:wall::wall::wall:
And also, Greeks are the best. My favorite faction is Makedonia. Within 15 years in my Makedonia campaign, I had conquered all of Italy, and burned Rome to the ground.:whip: Memories, the memories.

Makedonians mostly counted as "Greeks" on a technicality though... :beam:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

In fact the Chinese term may have been less deragotory.

From Wiki, which has an ok article on "Barbarian" as I already mentioned.

The Chinese (Han Chinese) of the Chinese Empire sometimes (depends on the dynasty, geographic location, and timeline) regarded the Xiongnu, Tatars, Turks, Mongols, Jurchens, Manchus, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese and Europeans as "barbaric". The Chinese used different terms for "barbarians" from different directions of the compass. Those in the east were called Dongyi (東夷), those in the west were called Xirong (西戎), those in the south were called Nanman (南蠻), and those in the north were called Beidi (北狄). However, despite the conventional translation of such terms (especially 夷) as "barbarian", in fact it is possible to translate them simply as 'outsider' or 'stranger', with far less offensive cultural connotations.

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I'm not too sure about that.... The ancient chinese had a severe superiority complex (like many old cultures btw) Chinese is what is good and civilized anything outside of that sphere is a stranger, outsider which makes him barbarian. Anyway I do not have any evidence for this so I'll go along with you.... I DO know that the japanese term Gaijin IS very derogatory... with a similar reasoning behind it.... The chinese and japanese generally seemed to look benignly on "barbarians" but also something as less then Chinese/Japanese, which led in several instances to rather violent and nasty episodes....

@ Maion. I can se your point.... The point that Knight of Heaven (and I in turn) were trying to make is that the term civilized is rather relative. And that definitions of what is civilized are wildly different across the world. therefore saying that one group is more civilized than another is rather strange... After all by whom's definition were they more civilized. i am not saying that the celts were more civilized than the greeks... Not at all... I am simply saying that both were sophisticated civilizations. What we know of Celtic law is intruiging indeed for example. Also women had a much less subservient role in society (mind you they were still subservient) I am not saying that this makes them better than the greeks, but on a social level they had huge sophistication. The greeks on the other hand were culturally much stronger in other areas, which they excelled at. Squaring the two off against one another is nothing more then a personal choice of cultural preference I think, not a case of one being more civilized than the other....

Yeah, I should probably burn my keyboard or something. I get way too serious on these subjects. In RL I tend to point my finger towards anyone who speaks inaccurately about Ancient History (even to the point of becoming unberable sometimes), and debates make me passionate. Anyway, I guess I take stuff that people say waay too serious. Neglecting that some people actually joke sometimes.

Maion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

Yeah, I should probably burn my keyboard or something. I get way too serious on these subjects. In RL I tend to point my finger towards anyone who speaks inaccurately about Ancient History (even to the point of becoming unberable sometimes), and debates make me passionate. Anyway, I guess I take stuff that people say waay too serious. Neglecting that some people actually joke sometimes.

Maion

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I personally Do not find your fanatical loyalty to Arche Makedonia irritating... Though I do not share your preference for makedonia, I do like the way it spices things up a bit:laugh4:

It's a bit hard for the first time, but after that it's only some kind of "forum game": romaioktonoi vs rest-of-the-ANCIENT-world XD

I'm not fanatical about Makedonia. I'm fanatical about historical accuracy. The whole Romaioi-hating thing is a joke, people. Plus, I'm also a KH fan you know. I actually have much more common with them, seeing my father hails from the shores of Mikra Asia and migrated to Paros in the Cyclades after the disaster of 1922. I started this thing because of the fact that I'm getting infuriated with people saying Celts were advanced because they used some primitive form of soap. I mean, come one give me a break!

Maion

They were also well on their way to doing the Middle Ages over a millenia early when Caesar came and canceled any further "homegrown" developement, you know...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

I'm not fanatical about Makedonia. I'm fanatical about historical accuracy. The whole Romaioi-hating thing is a joke, people. Plus, I'm also a KH fan you know. I actually have much more common with them, seeing my father hails from the shores of Mikra Asia and migrated to Paros in the Cyclades after the disaster of 1922. I started this thing because of the fact that I'm getting infuriated with people saying Celts were advanced because they used some primitive form of soap. I mean, come one give me a break!

Maion

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:laugh4: I can sympathyze with the soap thing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valion

I actually already killed him, He faced off with my Golden Chevroned Trirarii and got owned hehehe Lol

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Nice, but just remember Pedites Extraordinarii tear apart Hoplites even if they are Spartiatai.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

I'm not fanatical about Makedonia. I'm fanatical about historical accuracy. The whole Romaioi-hating thing is a joke, people. Plus, I'm also a KH fan you know. I actually have much more common with them, seeing my father hails from the shores of Mikra Asia and migrated to Paros in the Cyclades after the disaster of 1922. I started this thing because of the fact that I'm getting infuriated with people saying Celts were advanced because they used some primitive form of soap. I mean, come one give me a break!

Maion

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And my roots also obviously make me a Roman supporter ;-) no problems in that :egypt:

YOU LOSE! MUAHAHAHAHHAHA ROMA VICTRIX! MUAHAHAHAHA :skull::skull::skull::skull:


:clown:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

Fighting naked, sleeping with my fellow soldiers, and living in shacks and cottages isn't what I would call "civilized" my friend.

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You know, I just couldn't resist quoting this, we're talking about Greeks here, and we all know how much Greeks love "sleeping" with other men :laugh4:

Well, Greek scholars wrote that and considered it weird since they had the most beautiful women. And if this seems weird to you, it's from the times of the Celtic invasion of Greece. Wow, "homosexuals" find sleeping with men strange? Wow, Aristophanes called the Eromenoi "euryproktoi" (wide-arses)? How could that be? Ohhh yes, because they were all homosexuals and thought of homosexualism as weird, of course.

Also, welcome to the fora :2thumbsup:

Maion

Dude. Everyone knows Ancient Greeks were all about teh ghey and pederasty. :smash:

elaborate on the text below... it's quoted by gen Patton...
The difficulty in understanding the Russian is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic, and therefore thinks deviously(wtf???). We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinese or a Japanese, and from what I have seen of them, I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other amiable characteristics, the Russian has no regard for human life and they are all out sons-of-bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks.

we all carry a fair amount of prejudice ,stereotypes , judgemental bullshit and generalities... even smart people like Patton...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ARCHIPPOS

elaborate on the text below... it's quoted by gen Patton...
The difficulty in understanding the Russian is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic, and therefore thinks deviously(wtf???). We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinese or a Japanese, and from what I have seen of them, I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other amiable characteristics, the Russian has no regard for human life and they are all out sons-of-bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks.

we all carry a fair amount of prejudice ,stereotypes , judgemental bullshit and generalities... even smart people like Patton...

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Hear Hear

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

Well, Greek scholars wrote that and considered it weird since they had the most beautiful women. And if this seems weird to you, it's from the times of the Celtic invasion of Greece. Wow, "homosexuals" find sleeping with men strange? Wow, Aristophanes called the Eromenoi "euryproktoi" (wide-arses)? How could that be? Ohhh yes, because they were all homosexuals and thought of homosexualism as weird, of course.

Also, welcome to the fora :2thumbsup:

Maion

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Look all good maion, i dont mean to be rude, just to defend myself, my point was the defenition of civilized is a very delicate matter, also i belive generaly speaking, people dont give the right credit to celtic factions and their contributes in humanty history, In social matters mainly they were very progressive, for that era.
All i heard is All greeks this, all romans this, etc off course there is reasons to do that. And they were amazing civilizations, with their own time.
But there is alot of aspects, that dont have a good foundation. For instance they say the gauls were devided, and fight each other... of course thats true, manny tribes, with manny rivals, and alot of wars among each other. But greeks dont? the romans dont? lol just and example.

About homosexuals, well this was a transversal reality in all human societies, what changed was the way one can look at that.
The greeks were famous to be more tolerants, and valorize, passion,love,afection,lust etc.
The relations among persons, should be man or women,speacialy in higher classes, were more open minded, for that time. Do not mistake this with marriage, marriage values werent the same as today of course.
And off course not every greek thinked and lived all the sameway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven

About homosexuals, well this was a transversal reality in all human societies, what changed was the way one can look at that.
The greeks were famous to be more tolerants, and valorize, passion,love,afection,lust etc.
The relations among persons, should be man or women,speacialy in higher classes, were more open minded, for that time. Do not mistake this with marriage, marriage values werent the same as today of course.
And off course not every greek thinked and lived all the sameway.

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We agree on this completely.

Maion

https://img136.imageshack.us/img136/...ivertedvt9.jpg