The Geert Wilders trial

Thoughts? This is pretty big over here but it gets a lot of foreign attention as well.

http://www.nrc.nl/international/arti..._Wilders_trial

Pat Condel pretty much sums up my thoughts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJKRF2uB8xU

They can do as they please I don't care, the idiots put the islam itself on trial in their desire to silence Wilders, thx for that how stupid can you be. He can't be convicted because a judge will have to decide wether or not muslims are insulted, that is an opinion and thus it has no legal grounds. They made a very big mistake, best to feel the temperature of the water before taking a dive. I am furious they are trying it though, this is an attack on the freedom of speech, and millions of voters are on trial today.

It seems even bringing this to trial is a defeat for freedom of speech.

CR

This trial offends me. Who do I complain to?

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

It seems even bringing this to trial is a defeat for freedom of speech.

CR

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Next elections will be a triumph for freedom of speech, everybody is sick and tired of the incredibly intrusive socialist/christian government we have now. Even my mom is now voting for him out of protest, the idiots made a big mistake. It's really unlike anything we have seen before, the justice department correctly established that he hasn't done anything wrong, but the court itself took the initiative, absolutely unheard of and without question politically motivated, they will find that it is really they who are on trial.

It wasn't the CDA or PvdA who decided he should be prosecuted, Frag.

I don't think what Wilders did should be punishable under law, but the fact is, people have been prosecuted and convicted on those articles before. The idea that the Netherlands is becoming some sort of dictatorship specifically because Geert Wilders might be convicted is ridiculous. Geert is suffering from a messiah complex, I think :juggle:

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

It wasn't the CDA or PvdA who decided he should be prosecuted, Frag.

I don't think what Wilders did should be punishable under law, but the fact is, people have been prosecuted and convicted on those articles before. The idea that the Netherlands is becoming some sort of dictatorship specifically because Geert Wilders might be convicted is ridiculous. Geert is suffering from a messiah complex, I think :juggle:

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If he gets convicted they can ban his party, which would be very convenient.

You are a student of law, if he gets convicted he will be convicted because of the opinion of a judge, as the judge has to decide wether or not muslims are to be offended and he lacks the expertise, high court will never accept it if he takes it higher, or maybe they will?

I suppose I should oppose this, being a liberal and all, but I hate the guy's guts so much I can't help but secretly hope for a conviction.

Also, FYI, the "opinion of a judge" is a well-motivated legal argument with legal standing. Not just some Geert-voting idiot screaming something stupid.

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Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on

Also, FYI, the "opinion of a judge" is a well-motivated legal argument with legal standing. Not just some Geert-voting idiot screaming something stupid.

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When it concerns the law, and in how far it should be applied, but the judge has to decide wether or not what Wilders said is offensive and there is no law against offense so that don't fly here. They have gotten themselves into a juridical minefield here.

but I hate the guy's guts so much I can't help but secretly hope for a conviction.

Oh be nice to my boy, he certainly crosses the line when it comes to good manners but he has his heart at the right place.

It is not at all clear cut whether or not Wilders' more extreme/rabid pronouncements were well within the law: a lot of that depends on context, and there is a significant difference between e.g. an argument about the Quran as an insidious violence-condoning disgrace to humanity comparing it with Mein Kampf; and e.g. an argument about the Quran as such a book in a broader diatribe against immigrants. EDIT: Basically the judge's verdict amounts to that: a better, more thorough verdict beside OM's assesment on whether or not Wilders' was guilty of the charges must be established; and to do so requires a full trial, by law.

IIRC: Nobody accused Sibbel & Jansen for their show in which they slammed the doomed-to-failure proposals by overzealous CDA types to explicitly forbid blasphemy by using a deliberately blasphemous portrayal of Mohamed (and lets face it that portrayal was scarcely more of a hagiography than is Wilders portrayal of the same Mohamed); nobody filed a complaint about that.

At any rate: It is likely that he would be cleared of all charges (which is why OM didn't prosecute in the first place) but that is a different matter.

I don't think they are, but I am not lawyer mind you, but I don't see anything coming from this except more seats which is fine with me (vote for PVV myself) I don't know Sibbel & Jansen but if they work for the state-television it's hardly surprising they didn't get any trouble over it like Gregorius Nekschot did. Juridically this is going to be interesting, politically things have been interesting for quite some time.

Sibbel has stage name Lebbis; they both earn their living on stage similar to Nahjib Amhali, Theo Maassen etc. That should remind you of who they are.

I don't watch tv, sorry never heard of them, sounds refreshing though. Know what you are talking about though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvOS...rom=PL&index=1

love this guy

This trial will only increase it's popularity and votes, so why complain?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

When it concerns the law, and in how far it should be applied, but the judge has to decide wether or not what Wilders said is offensive and there is no law against offense so that don't fly here. They have gotten themselves into a juridical minefield here.

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I do believe there are laws and jurisprudence in the subject field. This is undeniable. Wilders has made some very shady remarks about certain groups of people, as have people in the past. Presenting it as if the judge is tracking uncharted ground or stumbling around in the dark is a gross misrepresentation. The fact our little peroxide loving powermonger has said certain things that are extremely questionable, and I'm being charitable here.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

but I hate the guy's guts so much I can't help but secretly hope for a conviction.

Oh be nice to my boy, he certainly crosses the line when it comes to good manners but he has his heart at the right place.

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If "having your heart at the right place" includes a ruthless lust for power and an inexplicable hatred for people of a different background, then I respectfully decline.

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

This trial will only increase it's popularity and votes, so why complain?

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Because they won't play fair and won't keep the debate where it belongs, and the parliament is where that is. They will use every trick at their disposal to be able to keep doing nothing. They did the same thing with Fortuyn, this has nothing to do with ideas on how to run a country but with a sick and tired political elite caught in their own game fighting for their existence by any means necesary.

If "having your heart at the right place" includes a ruthless lust for power and an inexplicable hatred for people of a different background, then I respectfully decline.

As long as lefties feel the need to cater every backward aspect of Islam I respectfully decline as well, he is quite popular among immigrants by the way, also muslims coming from hardline islamic society's like Iran. At this moment I don't really care what he kicks as long as he keeps doing it, we need a new government, I feel cornered and I will scratch and bite to get out.

I disagree. Most of the people who got the DA to charge him are most certainly not part of the political-bureaucratic elite (PvdA, VVD, CDA) you speak of. Just admit already that Wilders does more than simply be the brave knight fighting the seven-headed hydra of political incompetence called our current cabinet. Which, I might add, he doesn't do in the first place.

Can't they drop the charges if he promises to change his haircut?

It's horrible.

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Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on

I disagree. Most of the people who got the DA to charge him are most certainly not part of the political-bureaucratic elite (PvdA, VVD, CDA) you speak of.

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Amsterdam court took the initiative after the DA dropping charges, only one person can enforce that and that is the minister of justice, that is unheard of and a violation of our trias politica. The people putting the charges are funded by Oxam-Novib who recieve over 200 million euro's of tax money every year, among others. The hydra, yeah.

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Originally Posted by Andres

Can't they drop the charges if he promises to change his haircut?

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Didn't you hear? Wilders stopped dyeing his hair.

https://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8588/wilders.jpg

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ertWilders.jpg

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Amsterdam court took the initiative after the DA dropping charges, only one person can enforce that and that is the minister of justice, that is unheard of and a violation of our trias politica.

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No. OM was taken to court over the matter and ordered to prosecute. And I don't know where we got trias politica from here; but in any case the fundamental part of trias politica is that the 3 branches have the power to boss each other around to some extent (it is not merely curtailing each other), otherwise these could do as they pleased. And Dutch law works still differently; with more, much more power to courts than you might notice at first.

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The people putting the charges are funded by Oxam-Novib who recieve over 200 million euro's of tax money every year, among others. The hydra, yeah.

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Irrelevant; Oxfam-Novib is an international NGO not held to furthering the aims of whichever source their money comes from but held to furthering its own aims with anyone welcome to donate if they sympathize with these aims. The Dutch state expresses its sympathy with these goals by supporting the NGO with money; but that does not and should not mean its political elite can count on ‘favours’ of any kind in return.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Irrelevant; Oxfam-Novib is an international NGO not held to furthering the aims of whichever source their money comes from but held to furthering its own aims with anyone welcome to donate if they sympathize with these aims. The Dutch state expresses its sympathy with these goals by supporting the NGO with money; but that does not and should not mean its political elite can count on ‘favours’ of any kind in return.

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But of course. No, Nederland bekend kleur and the AFA and the IS who are behind the charges, to name a few, are all directly funded via Oxam Novib who get 200 million a year. On top of what they already got. Feel free to check it out.

http://www.elsevier.nl/web/Nieuws/Ne...kent-Kleur.htm

chew before swallowing, these 135 million are just government support by the way, so no you do not have a point, yes some fools give them money.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Amsterdam court took the initiative after the DA dropping charges, only one person can enforce that and that is the minister of justice, that is unheard of and a violation of our trias politica. The people putting the charges are funded by Oxam-Novib who recieve over 200 million euro's of tax money every year, among others. The hydra, yeah.

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Erm no, the judiciary is independent. I'm not an expert, but if our democracy here works then the Minister of Justice does not decide what a court does and doesn't do.

What Tellos said is right. That the people who are bringing charges are funded by an NGO doesn't really say much about my argument, considering there are apparently plenty of people outside the political elite in our country who take great offense to what this character is saying. And they need money to press charges. Perhaps that should tell you something...

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Originally Posted by Fragony

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ertWilders.jpg

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Hmmm...

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9642/syndrome.png

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Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on

Erm no, the judiciary is independent. I'm not an expert, but if our democracy here works then the Minister of Justice does not decide what a court does and doesn't do.

What Tellos said is right. That the people who are bringing charges are funded by an NGO doesn't really say much about my argument, considering there are apparently plenty of people outside the political elite in our country who take great offense to what this character is saying. And they need money to press charges. Perhaps that should tell you something...

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They don't need any money as they can grow fat on unlimited budgets, they are just protecting their positions and it's going to end, they know that they will have to find a real job to prove their worth, the money is gone it is somewhere in Iceland and there isn't going to be any place for them very soon, they hold on to what they have and we are going to chop of whatever they are holding on to. There is a place and a time for everything, and here happens to be right now. They raped us and now I am going to rape them whenever my pickle allows it, c'est ca, had their warning a few years back and he is dead so now survival is key and I am going to hurt just about everything when I can even when it is irrational. If I have to be sorry, I forgot how to be sorry. Sick of this, a 12 year old girl being hit by a car by these pests.

I am sick of this mindless cruelty towards people who can't defend their selves, the old, the sick, the disabled. All they see is an easy target that is easy to rob.

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I am sick of this mindless cruelty towards people who can't defend their selves, the old, the sick, the disabled. All they see is an easy target that is easy to rob.

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This isn't related to Islam. This is related to cultural problems. Or does mr. Wilders seriously believe Muslims in Turkey, Syria, and Morocco are the same?

Get real, please.

@Frag
Can't win this discussion? Do what Geert would do, blame the left :clown:

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Originally Posted by Hax

This isn't related to Islam. This is related to cultural problems. Or does mr. Wilders seriously believe Muslims in Turkey, Syria, and Morocco are the same?

Get real, please.

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I know, but it isn't me who is throwing it all on the same pile, the people coming to the defense are. The euro left had made it's choice and they have chosen the more radical aspects of the Islam. I sometimes wonder how many muslims have fallen prey to your best intention, or more like, how many lives these good intentions have ruined, can name you a few.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

They don't need any money as they can grow fat on unlimited budgets, they are just protecting their positions and it's going to end, they know that they will have to find a real job to prove their worth, the money is gone it is somewhere in Iceland and there isn't going to be any place for them very soon, they hold on to what they have and we are going to chop of whatever they are holding on to. There is a place and a time for everything, and here happens to be right now. They raped us and now I am going to rape them whenever my pickle allows it, c'est ca, had their warning a few years back and he is dead so now survival is key and I am going to hurt just about everything when I can even when it is irrational. If I have to be sorry, I forgot how to be sorry. Sick of this, a 12 year old girl being hit by a car by these pests.

I am sick of this mindless cruelty towards people who can't defend their selves, the old, the sick, the disabled. All they see is an easy target that is easy to rob.

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This is ridiculous. You extrapolate individual cases to a mindless mass of savages you term "them" and by which you mean "immigrants and those of immigrant descent" in this country. That is exactly why your fearless leader is on trial now. It is discriminatory, it is uncalled for, it is disgusting and it does not belong in the twenty-first century.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

The euro left had made it's choice

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That's the same old argument I told you he would make, all dutch righties do that. They all have the Cookies burnt? I bet the leftists did it thingie...

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Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on

This is ridiculous. You extrapolate individual cases to a mindless mass of savages you term "them" and by which you mean "immigrants and those of immigrant descent" in this country. That is exactly why your fearless leader is on trial now. It is discriminatory, it is uncalled for, it is disgusting and it does not belong in the twenty-first century.

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It aren't the immigrants when I am talking about 'them', they are welcome as long as they behave. I am talking about the immigration-industry and the socioloco-industry behind the costly problems.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

If he gets convicted they can ban his party, which would be very convenient.

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Not without a seperate trial. Wilders is being tried, not the PVV. It's not as if the PVV has such a degree of organisation that it will be extremely hard to build it all from scratch again, seeing as how it only has one member.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

You are a student of law, if he gets convicted he will be convicted because of the opinion of a judge, as the judge has to decide wether or not muslims are to be offended and he lacks the expertise, high court will never accept it if he takes it higher, or maybe they will?

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The idea that laws should be written so clearly that judges only have to apply them without any mental effort has been rejected 200 years ago as unworkable. Wether punching someone repeatedly in the face is a form of "mishandeling" is also a matter of opinion, as the article itself offers no definition at all.

Of course feeling offended by a statement doesn't necessarily mean said statement is a crime. Wilders is being charged for insulting groups on purpose, over an extended period of time, plus inciting hatred etc.

I'm not a big fan of articles 137c till g (wich basically prohibit insulting groups and whatnot) myself. But people other than Wilders have been convicted for it the last 70 years (look here for an old but famous case) including recent years. Why should I feel especially bothered about Wilders being prosecuted? :juggle2:

Andres:

I heartily concur.

Geert Wilders now goes on my list of celebrities to receive "special treatment."


List includes: The NFL's Jimmy Johnson, Donald Trump and Don King. All such :clown: hair must be eliminated for the good of the species.

Wilders must die his hair blond because....he must disguise he is of Indonesian heritage.


Yes, it's true. Like (my second Godwin in two posts!) the more a Nazi looked Central-European / Jewish, the louder they squeeked about Blond Superhumans and 'foreign elements' or alien blood.

Wilders hates Muslims because he blames them for the misery of his family, which lost out in Indonesia (the world's largest Islamic country, supressed by generations of his family). He is on a personal crusade to avenge his family and to psychologically 'purge' himself of his own foreign blood.


Wilders should not be in politics, nor stand before a judge. He should be brought before a shrink to help him cope with his mixed-race identity problems.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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According to anthropologist Lizzy van Leeuwen, writing in the weekly De Groene Amsterdammer, populist politician and patriot Geert Wilders is not quite as Dutch as he seems. Her researches reveal that he is descended from a Jewish-Indonesian family by the name of Meijer. Nor did his grandfather serve as a soldier in the Dutch East Indies, as Wilders claims. He was a civil servant who was sacked in 1934 while on leave with his family in the Netherlands and could not afford to return. Van Leeuwen also says that Wilders’ iconic hair is, in fact, bleached ‘to disguise his origins’.

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http://www.thehagueonline.com/headli...nesian-descent

I've heard that before. According to my Indo friends (Indo =/= Indonesian, rather it's a creole people of Dutch and mostly Sundanese/Javanese descent) it's merely a rumor in the Indo community. Could be, though.

EDIT: Fun thing about that study, or at least that article, is that it's trying to use Wilders's extremely flawed argument (zomg they're not ethnically Dutch, oh, the horror!) against him.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

It aren't the immigrants when I am talking about 'them', they are welcome as long as they behave. I am talking about the immigration-industry and the socioloco-industry behind the costly problems.

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Heh, it's only after being called out over remarks like that, that PVV supporters like you start to qualify their remarks.

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

Heh, it's only after being called out over remarks like that, that PVV supporters like you start to qualify their remarks.

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Does/did Fragony deny or confirm his support for PVV?

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Does/did Fragony deny or confirm his support for PVV?

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I think Fragony has explicitly stated he isn't a Wilders fan, but would vote for him because he is the "least worst."

He just stated in this thread that he votes PVV...

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

He just stated in this thread that he votes PVV...

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Bah, shame on me :wall::whip:. And to think I pride myself for always reading the whole thread, no matter how long, before posting - a rule I have yet to break (but really, I do it because primarily I like to read threads so much, even when they are unrelated old threads).

My apologies :shame:.

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

I've heard that before. According to my Indo friends (Indo =/= Indonesian, rather it's a creole people of Dutch and mostly Sundanese/Javanese descent) it's merely a rumor in the Indo community. Could be, though.

EDIT: Fun thing about that study, or at least that article, is that it's trying to use Wilders's extremely flawed argument (zomg they're not ethnically Dutch, oh, the horror!) against him.

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Do you know who looks like Wilders? Another famous Dutchman of mixed Dutch-Indonesian race:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/46...en28199329.jpg

That's right. It's Edward Van Halen, one of my favourite guitarists. Picture him with blond hair and you get Wilders.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8588/wilders.jpg

Wilders may dye his hair blonde and deny all (does he?), but I can see why there would be a rumour in the Indonesian Dutch community. As with all ethnic communities, they will be acutely aware of what the faces of their group look like.
Wilders can't fool me either. :whip:

Van Halen ownownowns, and I recognise the distinct similarity between the two Van Halen brothers and Wilders. And Eddie never made a problem of his mixed-heritage or why he should look so non-Dutch. It is simply that Muslim Indonesian blood in his family.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swzh0ngMNJo
Check the drummer and guitarist, picture them with Wilders' hair and the similarity is obvious.

Dude, I know many Indo's personally. Trust me, Wilders is a lot whiter than most of them (as are the Van Halens, who are half-Indo FYI). Though he could be, there is a vague resemblance. Yet that could just as well be something entirely different, it's that vague.

Vague? The first time I saw Wilders I thought he was from the Congo he's so black.

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Originally Posted by Wiki

Wilders' mother was born in Soekaboemi, Dutch East Indies.[10] In a biography, Wilders himself seems to play down his Indo heritage.[11] Anthropologist Lizzy van Leeuwen analyses Wilders' Eastern heritage with the concept of displacedness, and classifies his standpoints as "post-colonial revanchism". This analysis is met with agreement in Indo communities.[10] However, in an interview, Wilders denied van Leeuwens' speculations.[12]

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Edit: Bless Wiki links:

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Geert Wilders is surprisingly popular with immigrants who came to the Netherlands from the former Dutch East Indies. The key, believes anthropologist Lizzy van Leeuwen, lies in the populist politician's own convoluted family history.

If you consider the evidence, says Lizzy van Leeuwen, Geert Wilders is himself a second generation immigrant. His mother was born in Sukabumi, in what is now Indonesia. His grandfather, Johan Ording, was a civil servant in the colonial administration and his grandmother, Johanna, belonged to a mixed blood family.

Could that have played a role in the development of Mr Wilders' preoccupation with territorial issues? "It's possible," says Ms Van Leeuwen. She knows of dozens of immigrants from the East Indies who have roughly similar ideas. But actual evidence? She admits there is none.

More significant is that people from the Dutch East Indies will immediately recognize Mr Wilders as one of their own. Despite the bleached hair. "I interviewed more than a hundred elderly immigrants. They see him as what they call an 'Indies boy'. As someone who tells the truth."

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/ge...ies-immigrants

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

He just stated in this thread that he votes PVV...

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Yeah I do that so what, PVV isn't like the BNP or it's kinds.

@Louis, yes he is very popular with indo- dutchies, but I would seek the cause of that somewhere else, they don't really get along.

van Leeuwens is the leftist church at it's most pathetic by the way, we don't react in the same way when somebody says 'Israeli spy' or 'Indo heritage' as lefties do, nice try. And they try.

edit wait, it was more pathetic that he can't find a muslim girl, gawd lefties

Nobody in this country reacts in any way to Indo heritage anymore. It's become completely uncontroversial. As will be the case with all our minorities 50 years from now.

Louis: Hmm, didn't know that. But as said, half-Indo. And erm, what does it matter? Such a character, if he does hate Islam because of his heritage, is part of a tiny minority within Indo society. As an aside, I sincerely doubt he hates Muslims because of his heritage. There is plenty within this country's dominant ethnic Dutch majority which can produce just such an attitude, and readily does as proven by the legions of (prospective) PVV voters. Dismissing it as the outdated grudge of a minority seems incredibly easy and apologetic of ethnic Dutch society, especially on the countryside.

It is not the only reason, but might be the reason for this irrational hatred for Islam.

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

Nobody in this country reacts in any way to Indo heritage anymore. It's become completely uncontroversial.

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They expected we would, out of the many dirty tricks this one was nasty.

Oh come on Fragony, dr. Van Leeuwen was simply giving a reason for his hatred for Islam. What did you expect, that "the left" would have suspected people wouldn't vote for him just because he's Indo?

Get real please, do you honestly think we retreat into a low-profile location every week to discuss how to get as many immigrants into the Netherlands as possible and piss people off at the same time?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Yeah I do that so what, PVV isn't like the BNP or it's kinds.

@Louis, yes he is very popular with indo- dutchies, but I would seek the cause of that somewhere else, they don't really get along.

van Leeuwens is the leftist church at it's most pathetic by the way, we don't react in the same way when somebody says 'Israeli spy' or 'Indo heritage' as lefties do, nice try. And they try.

edit wait, it was more pathetic that he can't find a muslim girl, gawd lefties

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Oh, I don't know, Fragony.

1- Firstly, there is of course the fun fact in itself that Wilders himself is of dark-skinned, Islamic heritage.

2 - Wilders denies or downplays this fact. Indeed the bleached hair is a constant reminder of this denial - even an act of self-denial. His remarkable hair is not a coincidence, but key to understanding his psychology and social expression thereof.

3 -

When the politician's grandfather came to the Netherlands on furlough in 1935, he found himself sacked from his job. He and his wife, who was used to having servants and living the life of an aristocrat, suddenly had to adjust to a new environment. Poverty and bitterness were their lot.

Oooh...so no more Muslim servants for our colonial. No more Muslim subjects for the Wilders family to rule over. Frustrated, some? :smash:

4 - Wilders is of mixed race. Of immigrant heritage. Noticable about Wilders of course is that he is not your average European racist. Wilders does not attack foreigners indiscriminately, or those of different etnicity. This is peculiar for the far right. No, wilders only attacks Muslims. The PVV is not a racist, but an anti-Islam party.

By thus drawing the line of 'Dutchness' between 'Dutch culture' and 'Islamic culture', instead of a line between 'Dutch etnicity' and 'Non-Dutch etnicity', Wilders the halfcast becomes Wilders the fullcast. He now firmly, at last, belongs in the first camp.

This is quite common. Note for example the endemic racism towards African Blacks by French-Caribbean Blacks of mixed blood. The former, they insist, are not French, whereas they insist they themselves are. It is an interesting psychological mechanism.

5 - Extremist politicians are at an astonishing rate found to have convulated pasts, an 'off' heritage. For want of knowledge of an intersting study of the top of my head, three quick examples that spring to mind:
Zhirinovsky, the Russian ultra-nationalist and that nation's most virulent anti-Semite (quite an achievement) - who at last acknowledged last year he is himself Jewish.
Hitler, Stalin and Napoleon - all originating from outer provinces who were not fully part of the larger country. In some act of compensation, all three set out on a territorial conquest on behalf of the nation (/as leader of the nation whom they tricked into the abyss) that always saw them as a semi-foreigner.
The shorter and darker the Nazi, the louder he squeeked about tall blond Superhumans.

6 - The Pied-Noirs are among the most resentful people, most outspoken anti-Islam I know. There seems to be a ready parallel between the French who were driven out of Algeria, and the Dutch who were driven out of Indonesia. There is a mixture of bitter nostalgia and hatred for the Islamic rulers of their former homeland.

7 - On a related note: Is the Jewish part of Wilders etnic make-up entirely irrelevant to his openly professed love for Israel? Is that a leftist obfuscation too?

He dies his hair! CRUSADE JIHAD AGAINST THE RACIST! RACIST! RACIST! ANYONE WHO DIES THEIR HAIR BLONDE IS RACIST!*

All the Japanese I know who die their hair red or blonde are obviously racists. I'll report them to a human rights commissar immediately, thanks for the heads-up.

*And if they happen to be racist against their own race, then it's self-denial racism and obviously twice as bad. Or something. I will never understand the twisted logic of those who pretend to understand the "inner psychological motivations" of someone they have never met or made a scientific study of.

Whether one thinks Wilders is racist or not, well, that's a debate we can have, based on his policies and statements. Using hair dye as evidence? No.

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7 - On a related note: Is the Jewish part of Wilders etnic make-up entirely irrelevant to his openly professed love for Israel? Is that a leftist obfuscation too?

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I like Jews and Israel. Not Jewish though. Same with Texas, in spite of me being not Texan, Namibia in spite of not being Namibian, Czech, etc...

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Originally Posted by Hax

Oh come on Fragony, dr. Van Leeuwen was simply giving a reason for his hatred for Islam.

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Just another clown getting a stage, if I watched tv I would see a knowologue every day, including actually real clowns like Herman van Veen. It is even worse then it was with Fortuyn.

What did you expect, that "the left" would have suspected people wouldn't vote for him just because he's Indo?

Yes I would expect that the left thought we wouldn't vote on him because he's indo, that is how they think, and that is what they tried. They try something every day, not a day goes by where there isn't somebody on state television who has an opinion like this sorry socioloco has.

@Louigi, you understood why Pim Fortuyn is dead and what did it, why don't you see the same thing now.

Heh, it's only after being called out over remarks like that, that PVV supporters like you start to qualify their remarks.

I don't have to answer for leftist assumptions on how I think, I only do the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

They expected we would, out of the many dirty tricks this one was nasty.

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Drop the paranoia, bro :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat

1- Firstly, there is of course the fun fact in itself that Wilders himself is of dark-skinned, Islamic heritage.

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And here I'll have to correct you. The Indo people are Christian, not Islamic. There is an important distinction. They were not considered Indonesian after independence and chased out of the country for being different and Dutch. Here, check it out

P.S. I think you're drawing way too deeply from this pseudo-psychological analysis of his background. It cannot possibly be that important. More important would probably be Wilders's own biography.

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

Drop the paranoia, bro :dizzy2:

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I am not paranoid, rediculing him didn't work because he's too smart, demonizing him didn't work because reality is real for real people, and now they try this. This won't work either, the Netherlands is swifting to the right with or without Wilders, and there is only one reason for that and that, the faillure of multiculturalism and the people hanging on to it anyway. the at times truly sick attacks on him are cruel but he can manage.

You're paranoid because you somehow assume that leftists here do take exception to people being of Indo heritage while "normal" Dutchmen do not. This is very, very debatable, to put it very, very charitably.

On an aside, stop trying to make him out as an innocent martyr being nailed to a cross by the evil lefty conspiracy. This is as much the case as Berlusconi is not corrupt.

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

You're paranoid because you somehow assume that leftists here do take exception to people being of Indo heritage while "normal" Dutchmen do not. This is very, very debatable, to put it very, very charitably.

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No they thought we would, Israeli spy also didn't work because we don't hate the jews all that much, and this is just one out of many tricks anyway, could go on and on. I have seen it all before and see it exactly for what it is. When Fortuyn was treatening we saw nothing but Fortuyn, when Rita Verdonk was we saw nothing but Rita Verdonk, and now Wilders is on the 24/7.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

He dies his hair! CRUSADE JIHAD AGAINST THE RACIST! RACIST! RACIST! ANYONE WHO DIES THEIR HAIR BLONDE IS RACIST!*

All the Japanese I know who die their hair red or blonde are obviously racists. I'll report them to a human rights commissar immediately, thanks for the heads-up.

*And if they happen to be racist against their own race, then it's self-denial racism and obviously twice as bad. Or something. I will never understand the twisted logic of those who pretend to understand the "inner psychological motivations" of someone they have never met or made a scientific study of.

Whether one thinks Wilders is racist or not, well, that's a debate we can have, based on his policies and statements. Using hair dye as evidence? No.



I like Jews and Israel. Not Jewish though. Same with Texas, in spite of me being not Texan, Namibia in spite of not being Namibian, Czech, etc...

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It does show a complete lack of style and good taste though....

Vlaams blok trial someone? If his party ever gets convicted, I'll bet they'll solve it the same way.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

He dies his hair! CRUSADE JIHAD AGAINST THE RACIST! RACIST! RACIST! ANYONE WHO DIES THEIR HAIR BLONDE IS RACIST!*

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I am glad you got your repressed urge to randomly shout nonsense out of your system.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

I am glad you got your repressed urge to randomly shout nonsense out of your system.

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That was the point, to show the nonsensical. Claiming someone is a self-loathing racist because they dye their hair is going too far.

I hope my sarcasm didn't offend, but it did get the point across.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

That was sort of the point, to show the nonsensical. Claiming someone is a self-loathing racist because they dye their hair is going too far.

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No, the article said that he dyes his hair to attempt to hide from his hertiage. It never said because he is racist.

If anything, the points are closely aligned to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who comes from a jewish hertiage, yet is famously known for his anti-jewish rants.

In the same vein, he is an immigrant himself, and has tried to dissocciate himself from them, in what the article described as "superdutch" mentality. In the same vien, it is similar practise to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who tries to paint himself as "superiranian", etc.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

No, the article said that he dyes his hair to attempt to hide from his hertiage. It never said because he is racist.

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Similar. It's still a silly argument.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Similar. It's still a silly argument.

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It isn't an argument, it is normal that lefties do this, they can't debate the points so they ridicule the person. They even went so far as him not being able to get a muslim girl, it's pathetic and it isn't going to convince anybody, but if it's anti-Wilders the red machine will give you a stage.

Frag is making it look like the only arguments against Wilders us anti-Wilders people (conveniently all "lefties") have been able to come up with is the fact that he likes peroxide and happens to be half-Indo :dizzy2:

In reality these are no more than the zanier bits in a vast collection of reasons to oppose this madman's march to power. One only has to look at Frag's mad rants against immigrants to understand that this man and his cronies should never get into power anywhere. That this thread even devolved into discussing his heritage and the effect it had on his psychology as well as his :daisy: hairdo is a victory for the Wilders camp. It's sidetracking, derailing, it's a feint to make us ignore the real issue at hand: we have a party polling one third of the votes in a country, a party that wants to ban books and holds to calling entire population groups criminals.

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

, a party that wants to ban books

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Another party that banned books...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://padresteve.files.wordpress.co..._burning33.jpg
http://isurvived.org/Pictures_Isurvi...ok-burning.gif

I would gladly pay this man's way to America and let him live in my home for free. He can spearhead my KEEP MUSLIMS OUT OF THACKERVILLE crusade.

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I would gladly pay this man's way to America and let him live in my home for free.

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Yes, please, by all means, go ahead.

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

Frag is making it look like the only arguments against Wilders us anti-Wilders people (conveniently all "lefties") have been able to come up with is the fact that he likes peroxide and happens to be half-Indo :dizzy2:

In reality these are no more than the zanier bits in a vast collection of reasons to oppose this madman's march to power. One only has to look at Frag's mad rants against immigrants to understand that this man and his cronies should never get into power anywhere. That this thread even devolved into discussing his heritage and the effect it had on his psychology as well as his :daisy: hairdo is a victory for the Wilders camp. It's sidetracking, derailing, it's a feint to make us ignore the real issue at hand: we have a party polling one third of the votes in a country, a party that wants to ban books and holds to calling entire population groups criminals.

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Yeah we feel really good about not having to discus a haircut, and what it says about a person.

and oh please, that is deliberate slander at best, and most of all what we are used to anyway.

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

Frag is making it look like the only arguments against Wilders us anti-Wilders people (conveniently all "lefties") have been able to come up with is the fact that he likes peroxide and happens to be half-Indo :dizzy2:

In reality these are no more than the zanier bits in a vast collection of reasons to oppose this madman's march to power. One only has to look at Frag's mad rants against immigrants to understand that this man and his cronies should never get into power anywhere. That this thread even devolved into discussing his heritage and the effect it had on his psychology as well as his :daisy: hairdo is a victory for the Wilders camp. It's sidetracking, derailing, it's a feint to make us ignore the real issue at hand: we have a party polling one third of the votes in a country, a party that wants to ban books and holds to calling entire population groups criminals.

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Please don't be so easily intimidated. Only those who subscribe to hardright anti-intellectualism think that any exploration of who Wilders is and what makes him tick is a beastly leftist personal attack that seeks to destroy Wilders or to avoid the issues.

Don't play the hardright game of letting them decide what is taboo. Wilders is a 'Pied-Noir', plain and simple. He can deny it, his base may declare it taboo, but the fact remains.
Wilders politics, or this court case, or immigration, or the taste of Heineken, are all distinct issues. Each one deserving of intellectual exploration.
There is no need to carefully tip-toe around any issues out of fear it will play into the hands of the hardright - they will constantly replace the post anyway, try to shift what is acceptable, what can be said.

lol @ Louis as usual

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Originally Posted by Fragony

lol @ Louis as usual

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but Louis is right.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Don't play the hardright game of letting them decide what is taboo.

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lol, and there i was thinking that it was the favoured tactic of the hard left to close down the debate by attacking the person at the focus of the argument they were busy losing? well, that'll show me!

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Originally Posted by Beskar

but Louis is right.

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Louis is mostly complicated

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Please don't be so easily intimidated. Only those who subscribe to hardright anti-intellectualism think that any exploration of who Wilders is and what makes him tick is a beastly leftist personal attack that seeks to destroy Wilders or to avoid the issues.

Don't play the hardright game of letting them decide what is taboo. Wilders is a 'Pied-Noir', plain and simple. He can deny it, his base may declare it taboo, but the fact remains.
Wilders politics, or this court case, or immigration, or the taste of Heineken, are all distinct issues. Each one deserving of intellectual exploration.
There is no need to carefully tip-toe around any issues out of fear it will play into the hands of the hardright - they will constantly replace the post anyway, try to shift what is acceptable, what can be said.

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First off, it is precisely that I wish to discuss the far more acute and far more threatening issue of Wilders's insane policy plans and statements that I am intellectual, instead of getting sidetracked musing about his psychological makeups or traumas as a child. You don't need to go that deep to find reasons to oppose and ridicule the man.

Secondly, the man is not a pied-noir. If such a societal group comparable with that one even exists in Holland, it is most certainly not the Indo people but the Moluccans. And Wilders it not a Moluccan.

I am not carefully tiptoeing around anything. I am far more concerned with what the man is saying and doing right now and its implications than I am with his childhood and his hairdo.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Louis is mostly complicated

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I am not so complicated. The main misunderstanding is that I simply explore Wilders origins, without mistaking that for the end-all, final word about Wilders that would dismiss him, his ideas and his followers as nothing but colonial revanchism. Whereas I am afraid you think I intended to do just that.

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Originally Posted by wizard

First off, it is precisely that I wish to discuss the far more acute and far more threatening issue of Wilders's insane policy plans and statements that I am intellectual, instead of getting sidetracked musing about his psychological makeups or traumas as a child. You don't need to go that deep to find reasons to oppose and ridicule the man.

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Then please do discuss Wilders' insane plans etc. There is no need to accept the hardright's anti-intellectual notion that any debate which does not focus on 'Muslims Muslims Muslims' is sidetracking or avoiding the issues or is said with covert intentions of stifling debate or ridiculing Wilders and his followers.

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Secondly, the man is not a pied-noir. If such a societal group comparable with that one even exists in Holland, it is most certainly not the Indo people

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This is not what the antropologist Van Leeuwen says:

But more than anything, he [Wilders] was defined by his Indo-roots, she says. Indonesia was a Dutch colony until 1949 and many mixed-race people moved to the Netherlands after the Indonesian independence. Van Leeuwen describes how these people were put in the same 'cultural minority' box with labour immigrants from Turkey and Morocco, whom they felt no connection to at all. More so, they had always felt very patriotic about the Netherlands and harboured strong sentiments against Islam, the dominant religion in their motherland.

Van Leeuwen explains how this group has long been part of extreme-right movements (many supported the Dutch Nazi party NSB in Indonesia in the 1930s) while others belonged to the far-right of the right-wing liberal party VVD. She puts Wilders' statements in the conservative and colonial tradition of this group, which strongly believed in patriotism and "European values".

Andres and Seamus were discussing Wilders hair. It is the most outrageous haircut in international politics. What, I wondered, drives a man to have hair like this if he wishes to be taken seriously? The answer is surprising. It is the object of study, which I linked to.

It is all very interesting and I am a bit dismayed that it should be brushed aside by Wilders' followers as nothing but a beastly leftist attack, or by his opponents that it had better be left unmentioned.

Why do the Dutch posters here get their knickers in a twist over my drawing attention to this side of Wilders? Because the subject is fraught with taboo in Dutchiestan:

Van Leeuwen's analysis goes beyond the personal level: "The fact that Wilders obviously operates in a post-colonial political dimension, without it being recognised, says a lot about how the Netherlands dealt with, and still deals with the colonial past. Keep quiet, deny, forget and look the other way have been the motto for decades. Because of that, no one could imagine that what happened in Indonesia 50 years ago could still have its impact on modern-day politics."

With this level of public debate, small wonder Wilders is about to become the biggest party in the Netherlands. :smash:


http://www.nrc.nl/international/arti...anthropologist

Again, Louis is right on the ball.

It is refreshing everytime Louis posts. like a breath of freshair through the window, after some one let off some gas.

It's much more simple, they thought we don't vote on an Indo, this is just the left playing it dirty because they are helpless in the debate so they order stuff from knowologues. Same tactics with Hirschi Ali, when she left the socialists she was suddenly sexually frustrated and took that out on the Islam. Standard practice to discredit the person instead of adresing the issues.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

Again, Louis is right on the ball.

It is refreshing everytime Louis posts. like a breath of freshair through the window, after some one let off some gas.

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love that cheer-leading. you should start a fan club or something.....? :clown:

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

love that cheer-leading. you should start a fan club or something.....? :clown:

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It is funny because that comment is coming from you. :beam: You should see things from this angle when the forum-warriors of the right mobilise for action.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

It is funny because that comment is coming from you. :beam: You should see things from this angle when the forum-warriors of the right mobilise for action.

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go on, show me an example of such [edited] :balloon2:

It would be great if we could return to the actual topic and leave the anally focused jokes to PM discussions.

Thanks

:bow:

np, my apologies.