The Geert Wilders trial

[Fragony]

This is ridiculous. You extrapolate individual cases to a mindless mass of savages you term "them" and by which you mean "immigrants and those of immigrant descent" in this country. That is exactly why your fearless leader is on trial now. It is discriminatory, it is uncalled for, it is disgusting and it does not belong in the twenty-first century.

It aren't the immigrants when I am talking about 'them', they are welcome as long as they behave. I am talking about the immigration-industry and the socioloco-industry behind the costly problems.

[Kralizec]

If he gets convicted they can ban his party, which would be very convenient.

Not without a seperate trial. Wilders is being tried, not the PVV. It's not as if the PVV has such a degree of organisation that it will be extremely hard to build it all from scratch again, seeing as how it only has one member.

You are a student of law, if he gets convicted he will be convicted because of the opinion of a judge, as the judge has to decide wether or not muslims are to be offended and he lacks the expertise, high court will never accept it if he takes it higher, or maybe they will?

The idea that laws should be written so clearly that judges only have to apply them without any mental effort has been rejected 200 years ago as unworkable. Wether punching someone repeatedly in the face is a form of "mishandeling" is also a matter of opinion, as the article itself offers no definition at all.

Of course feeling offended by a statement doesn't necessarily mean said statement is a crime. Wilders is being charged for insulting groups on purpose, over an extended period of time, plus inciting hatred etc.

I'm not a big fan of articles 137c till g (wich basically prohibit insulting groups and whatnot) myself. But people other than Wilders have been convicted for it the last 70 years (look here for an old but famous case) including recent years. Why should I feel especially bothered about Wilders being prosecuted?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Andres:

I heartily concur.

Geert Wilders now goes on my list of celebrities to receive "special treatment."


List includes: The NFL's Jimmy Johnson, Donald Trump and Don King. All such hair must be eliminated for the good of the species.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Wilders must die his hair blond because....he must disguise he is of Indonesian heritage.


Yes, it's true. Like (my second Godwin in two posts!) the more a Nazi looked Central-European / Jewish, the louder they squeeked about Blond Superhumans and 'foreign elements' or alien blood.

Wilders hates Muslims because he blames them for the misery of his family, which lost out in Indonesia (the world's largest Islamic country, supressed by generations of his family). He is on a personal crusade to avenge his family and to psychologically 'purge' himself of his own foreign blood.


Wilders should not be in politics, nor stand before a judge. He should be brought before a shrink to help him cope with his mixed-race identity problems.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

According to anthropologist Lizzy van Leeuwen, writing in the weekly De Groene Amsterdammer, populist politician and patriot Geert Wilders is not quite as Dutch as he seems. Her researches reveal that he is descended from a Jewish-Indonesian family by the name of Meijer. Nor did his grandfather serve as a soldier in the Dutch East Indies, as Wilders claims. He was a civil servant who was sacked in 1934 while on leave with his family in the Netherlands and could not afford to return. Van Leeuwen also says that Wilders’ iconic hair is, in fact, bleached ‘to disguise his origins’.

http://www.thehagueonline.com/headli...nesian-descent

[The Wizard]

I've heard that before. According to my Indo friends (Indo =/= Indonesian, rather it's a creole people of Dutch and mostly Sundanese/Javanese descent) it's merely a rumor in the Indo community. Could be, though.

EDIT: Fun thing about that study, or at least that article, is that it's trying to use Wilders's extremely flawed argument (zomg they're not ethnically Dutch, oh, the horror!) against him.

It aren't the immigrants when I am talking about 'them', they are welcome as long as they behave. I am talking about the immigration-industry and the socioloco-industry behind the costly problems.

Heh, it's only after being called out over remarks like that, that PVV supporters like you start to qualify their remarks.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Heh, it's only after being called out over remarks like that, that PVV supporters like you start to qualify their remarks.

Does/did Fragony deny or confirm his support for PVV?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Does/did Fragony deny or confirm his support for PVV?

I think Fragony has explicitly stated he isn't a Wilders fan, but would vote for him because he is the "least worst."

[The Wizard]

He just stated in this thread that he votes PVV...

[Aemilius Paulus]

He just stated in this thread that he votes PVV...

Bah, shame on me . And to think I pride myself for always reading the whole thread, no matter how long, before posting - a rule I have yet to break (but really, I do it because primarily I like to read threads so much, even when they are unrelated old threads).

My apologies .

[Louis VI the Fat]

I've heard that before. According to my Indo friends (Indo =/= Indonesian, rather it's a creole people of Dutch and mostly Sundanese/Javanese descent) it's merely a rumor in the Indo community. Could be, though.

EDIT: Fun thing about that study, or at least that article, is that it's trying to use Wilders's extremely flawed argument (zomg they're not ethnically Dutch, oh, the horror!) against him.

Do you know who looks like Wilders? Another famous Dutchman of mixed Dutch-Indonesian race:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

That's right. It's Edward Van Halen, one of my favourite guitarists. Picture him with blond hair and you get Wilders.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Wilders may dye his hair blonde and deny all (does he?), but I can see why there would be a rumour in the Indonesian Dutch community. As with all ethnic communities, they will be acutely aware of what the faces of their group look like.
Wilders can't fool me either.

Van Halen ownownowns, and I recognise the distinct similarity between the two Van Halen brothers and Wilders. And Eddie never made a problem of his mixed-heritage or why he should look so non-Dutch. It is simply that Muslim Indonesian blood in his family.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swzh0ngMNJo
Check the drummer and guitarist, picture them with Wilders' hair and the similarity is obvious.

[The Wizard]

Dude, I know many Indo's personally. Trust me, Wilders is a lot whiter than most of them (as are the Van Halens, who are half-Indo FYI). Though he could be, there is a vague resemblance. Yet that could just as well be something entirely different, it's that vague.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Vague? The first time I saw Wilders I thought he was from the Congo he's so black.

Wilders' mother was born in Soekaboemi, Dutch East Indies.[10] In a biography, Wilders himself seems to play down his Indo heritage.[11] Anthropologist Lizzy van Leeuwen analyses Wilders' Eastern heritage with the concept of displacedness, and classifies his standpoints as "post-colonial revanchism". This analysis is met with agreement in Indo communities.[10] However, in an interview, Wilders denied van Leeuwens' speculations.[12]

Edit: Bless Wiki links:

Geert Wilders is surprisingly popular with immigrants who came to the Netherlands from the former Dutch East Indies. The key, believes anthropologist Lizzy van Leeuwen, lies in the populist politician's own convoluted family history.

If you consider the evidence, says Lizzy van Leeuwen, Geert Wilders is himself a second generation immigrant. His mother was born in Sukabumi, in what is now Indonesia. His grandfather, Johan Ording, was a civil servant in the colonial administration and his grandmother, Johanna, belonged to a mixed blood family.

Could that have played a role in the development of Mr Wilders' preoccupation with territorial issues? "It's possible," says Ms Van Leeuwen. She knows of dozens of immigrants from the East Indies who have roughly similar ideas. But actual evidence? She admits there is none.

More significant is that people from the Dutch East Indies will immediately recognize Mr Wilders as one of their own. Despite the bleached hair. "I interviewed more than a hundred elderly immigrants. They see him as what they call an 'Indies boy'. As someone who tells the truth."

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/ge...ies-immigrants

[Fragony]

He just stated in this thread that he votes PVV...

Yeah I do that so what, PVV isn't like the BNP or it's kinds.

@Louis, yes he is very popular with indo- dutchies, but I would seek the cause of that somewhere else, they don't really get along.

van Leeuwens is the leftist church at it's most pathetic by the way, we don't react in the same way when somebody says 'Israeli spy' or 'Indo heritage' as lefties do, nice try. And they try.

edit wait, it was more pathetic that he can't find a muslim girl, gawd lefties

[The Wizard]

Nobody in this country reacts in any way to Indo heritage anymore. It's become completely uncontroversial. As will be the case with all our minorities 50 years from now.

Louis: Hmm, didn't know that. But as said, half-Indo. And erm, what does it matter? Such a character, if he does hate Islam because of his heritage, is part of a tiny minority within Indo society. As an aside, I sincerely doubt he hates Muslims because of his heritage. There is plenty within this country's dominant ethnic Dutch majority which can produce just such an attitude, and readily does as proven by the legions of (prospective) PVV voters. Dismissing it as the outdated grudge of a minority seems incredibly easy and apologetic of ethnic Dutch society, especially on the countryside.

[Hax]

It is not the only reason, but might be the reason for this irrational hatred for Islam.

[Fragony]

Nobody in this country reacts in any way to Indo heritage anymore. It's become completely uncontroversial.

They expected we would, out of the many dirty tricks this one was nasty.

[Hax]

Oh come on Fragony, dr. Van Leeuwen was simply giving a reason for his hatred for Islam. What did you expect, that "the left" would have suspected people wouldn't vote for him just because he's Indo?

Get real please, do you honestly think we retreat into a low-profile location every week to discuss how to get as many immigrants into the Netherlands as possible and piss people off at the same time?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Yeah I do that so what, PVV isn't like the BNP or it's kinds.

@Louis, yes he is very popular with indo- dutchies, but I would seek the cause of that somewhere else, they don't really get along.

van Leeuwens is the leftist church at it's most pathetic by the way, we don't react in the same way when somebody says 'Israeli spy' or 'Indo heritage' as lefties do, nice try. And they try.

edit wait, it was more pathetic that he can't find a muslim girl, gawd lefties

Oh, I don't know, Fragony.

1- Firstly, there is of course the fun fact in itself that Wilders himself is of dark-skinned, Islamic heritage.

2 - Wilders denies or downplays this fact. Indeed the bleached hair is a constant reminder of this denial - even an act of self-denial. His remarkable hair is not a coincidence, but key to understanding his psychology and social expression thereof.

3 -

When the politician's grandfather came to the Netherlands on furlough in 1935, he found himself sacked from his job. He and his wife, who was used to having servants and living the life of an aristocrat, suddenly had to adjust to a new environment. Poverty and bitterness were their lot.

Oooh...so no more Muslim servants for our colonial. No more Muslim subjects for the Wilders family to rule over. Frustrated, some?

4 - Wilders is of mixed race. Of immigrant heritage. Noticable about Wilders of course is that he is not your average European racist. Wilders does not attack foreigners indiscriminately, or those of different etnicity. This is peculiar for the far right. No, wilders only attacks Muslims. The PVV is not a racist, but an anti-Islam party.

By thus drawing the line of 'Dutchness' between 'Dutch culture' and 'Islamic culture', instead of a line between 'Dutch etnicity' and 'Non-Dutch etnicity', Wilders the halfcast becomes Wilders the fullcast. He now firmly, at last, belongs in the first camp.

This is quite common. Note for example the endemic racism towards African Blacks by French-Caribbean Blacks of mixed blood. The former, they insist, are not French, whereas they insist they themselves are. It is an interesting psychological mechanism.

5 - Extremist politicians are at an astonishing rate found to have convulated pasts, an 'off' heritage. For want of knowledge of an intersting study of the top of my head, three quick examples that spring to mind:
Zhirinovsky, the Russian ultra-nationalist and that nation's most virulent anti-Semite (quite an achievement) - who at last acknowledged last year he is himself Jewish.
Hitler, Stalin and Napoleon - all originating from outer provinces who were not fully part of the larger country. In some act of compensation, all three set out on a territorial conquest on behalf of the nation (/as leader of the nation whom they tricked into the abyss) that always saw them as a semi-foreigner.
The shorter and darker the Nazi, the louder he squeeked about tall blond Superhumans.

6 - The Pied-Noirs are among the most resentful people, most outspoken anti-Islam I know. There seems to be a ready parallel between the French who were driven out of Algeria, and the Dutch who were driven out of Indonesia. There is a mixture of bitter nostalgia and hatred for the Islamic rulers of their former homeland.

7 - On a related note: Is the Jewish part of Wilders etnic make-up entirely irrelevant to his openly professed love for Israel? Is that a leftist obfuscation too?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

He dies his hair! CRUSADE JIHAD AGAINST THE RACIST! RACIST! RACIST! ANYONE WHO DIES THEIR HAIR BLONDE IS RACIST!*

All the Japanese I know who die their hair red or blonde are obviously racists. I'll report them to a human rights commissar immediately, thanks for the heads-up.

*And if they happen to be racist against their own race, then it's self-denial racism and obviously twice as bad. Or something. I will never understand the twisted logic of those who pretend to understand the "inner psychological motivations" of someone they have never met or made a scientific study of.

Whether one thinks Wilders is racist or not, well, that's a debate we can have, based on his policies and statements. Using hair dye as evidence? No.

7 - On a related note: Is the Jewish part of Wilders etnic make-up entirely irrelevant to his openly professed love for Israel? Is that a leftist obfuscation too?

I like Jews and Israel. Not Jewish though. Same with Texas, in spite of me being not Texan, Namibia in spite of not being Namibian, Czech, etc...

[Fragony]

Oh come on Fragony, dr. Van Leeuwen was simply giving a reason for his hatred for Islam.

Just another clown getting a stage, if I watched tv I would see a knowologue every day, including actually real clowns like Herman van Veen. It is even worse then it was with Fortuyn.

What did you expect, that "the left" would have suspected people wouldn't vote for him just because he's Indo?

Yes I would expect that the left thought we wouldn't vote on him because he's indo, that is how they think, and that is what they tried. They try something every day, not a day goes by where there isn't somebody on state television who has an opinion like this sorry socioloco has.

@Louigi, you understood why Pim Fortuyn is dead and what did it, why don't you see the same thing now.

Heh, it's only after being called out over remarks like that, that PVV supporters like you start to qualify their remarks.

I don't have to answer for leftist assumptions on how I think, I only do the discussion.

[The Wizard]

They expected we would, out of the many dirty tricks this one was nasty.

Drop the paranoia, bro

1- Firstly, there is of course the fun fact in itself that Wilders himself is of dark-skinned, Islamic heritage.

And here I'll have to correct you. The Indo people are Christian, not Islamic. There is an important distinction. They were not considered Indonesian after independence and chased out of the country for being different and Dutch. Here, check it out

P.S. I think you're drawing way too deeply from this pseudo-psychological analysis of his background. It cannot possibly be that important. More important would probably be Wilders's own biography.

[Fragony]

Drop the paranoia, bro

I am not paranoid, rediculing him didn't work because he's too smart, demonizing him didn't work because reality is real for real people, and now they try this. This won't work either, the Netherlands is swifting to the right with or without Wilders, and there is only one reason for that and that, the faillure of multiculturalism and the people hanging on to it anyway. the at times truly sick attacks on him are cruel but he can manage.

[The Wizard]

You're paranoid because you somehow assume that leftists here do take exception to people being of Indo heritage while "normal" Dutchmen do not. This is very, very debatable, to put it very, very charitably.

On an aside, stop trying to make him out as an innocent martyr being nailed to a cross by the evil lefty conspiracy. This is as much the case as Berlusconi is not corrupt.

[Fragony]

You're paranoid because you somehow assume that leftists here do take exception to people being of Indo heritage while "normal" Dutchmen do not. This is very, very debatable, to put it very, very charitably.

No they thought we would, Israeli spy also didn't work because we don't hate the jews all that much, and this is just one out of many tricks anyway, could go on and on. I have seen it all before and see it exactly for what it is. When Fortuyn was treatening we saw nothing but Fortuyn, when Rita Verdonk was we saw nothing but Rita Verdonk, and now Wilders is on the 24/7.

[HoreTore]

He dies his hair! CRUSADE JIHAD AGAINST THE RACIST! RACIST! RACIST! ANYONE WHO DIES THEIR HAIR BLONDE IS RACIST!*

All the Japanese I know who die their hair red or blonde are obviously racists. I'll report them to a human rights commissar immediately, thanks for the heads-up.

*And if they happen to be racist against their own race, then it's self-denial racism and obviously twice as bad. Or something. I will never understand the twisted logic of those who pretend to understand the "inner psychological motivations" of someone they have never met or made a scientific study of.

Whether one thinks Wilders is racist or not, well, that's a debate we can have, based on his policies and statements. Using hair dye as evidence? No.



I like Jews and Israel. Not Jewish though. Same with Texas, in spite of me being not Texan, Namibia in spite of not being Namibian, Czech, etc...

It does show a complete lack of style and good taste though....

[Moros]

Vlaams blok trial someone? If his party ever gets convicted, I'll bet they'll solve it the same way.

[Beskar]

He dies his hair! CRUSADE JIHAD AGAINST THE RACIST! RACIST! RACIST! ANYONE WHO DIES THEIR HAIR BLONDE IS RACIST!*

I am glad you got your repressed urge to randomly shout nonsense out of your system.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I am glad you got your repressed urge to randomly shout nonsense out of your system.

That was the point, to show the nonsensical. Claiming someone is a self-loathing racist because they dye their hair is going too far.

I hope my sarcasm didn't offend, but it did get the point across.

[Beskar]

That was sort of the point, to show the nonsensical. Claiming someone is a self-loathing racist because they dye their hair is going too far.

No, the article said that he dyes his hair to attempt to hide from his hertiage. It never said because he is racist.

If anything, the points are closely aligned to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who comes from a jewish hertiage, yet is famously known for his anti-jewish rants.

In the same vein, he is an immigrant himself, and has tried to dissocciate himself from them, in what the article described as "superdutch" mentality. In the same vien, it is similar practise to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who tries to paint himself as "superiranian", etc.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

No, the article said that he dyes his hair to attempt to hide from his hertiage. It never said because he is racist.

Similar. It's still a silly argument.