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One person killed in the attack. The number of casualties means the police have now put aside the initial lead that it might have been Einstein planning it.
Further, it was made in close vicinity to the whole Nobel thing, just a day late. One would have thought the nutcase at LEAST could have striked some more valuable target.
One can just hope this tragic event will lead to people now taking a bigger interest in politics. Oh, and realising we are at war.
Here's a link from WSJ. From this report it doesn't appear to have anything to do with the Nobel Prize ceremony.
There is a thread for this. :mean:
Yes, we truly are under attack, these terrorists are clearly a treath to our security!!
/sarcasm&irony
I wonder which civil liberties you swedes will be robbed of now. Oh well, you're welcome to join the thousands who have already fled to the freedom in Greater Norway! Plenty of bars here for you to tend to ~:)
More to come Swedes will just have to live with it. That's what you get for desperately craving a multicultural society without asking any questions on who and where from. This was just an idiot by the way, amateur who's brain fried nothing serious, stupidly invited
Yes, the swedes should REALLY be afraid of even more people doing suicides in spectacular ways.
/sarcasm&irony again
This is just more proof that we have absolutely nothing to fear from "muslim tewwowists".
Of course it's going to happen again, this is more like the Columbine shootings not a terrorist attack, confused kidQuote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
True, that was my point. At the very least the nutcase could have done it the day before, would have had a much bigger impact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
Agreed. One could hope people would start to understand what quality of people we are accepting with open arms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Pretty much so, yes. And I seriously hope we dont start going all US on ourselves, more than we already have, that is..Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Hope you guys can keep your calms, Horetore is right on this was a spectacular suicide, nothing more.
I just noticed... the only one killed in the attack was the suicide bomber himself. I dont even think anyone else got hurt. Maybe he was going for the darwin award..
So out of all the Muslims in Sweden they manage to pull off one failed terrorist attack, and this shows what a dangerous and evil lot they are?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
The only danger that will come of this attack is the restriction on civil liberties that will follow from the inevitable hyperbole.
And his bomb was so crap he still managed to get 300m away before he kicked the bucket.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Indeed....Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
How's that Olof Palme murder going, Sweden? Figured it out yet? No?
I heard some Swedish guy killed someone once, it really makes me wonder what quality of people Swedes are...
Is this the new sarcasm and derogatory comments thread?
On the radio here they said there were nails involved, which doesn't sound like a suicide, you know, bomb + nails = flying nails.
Of course so shortly after an incident the info is a bit unreliable, as this thread shows.
Not saying that wasn't his intention, we're saying that was the result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Rhyfelwyr, well we do accept a lot of people who do not believe in democracy, who do not believe in a free press, and who are fanatically religious. Sure, this one was a bit more nutty than the average guy, but if you (as an example) look at the 200 people ruining Lars Vilks lecture, you see that this is not an isolated incident.
The problem is bigger than this one guy, albeit yesterday things were taken to its extreme through him.
Husar, as HoreTore said, his intention was to blow himself up and take loads with him. Thankfully he was not the brainiest guy around.
His letter states he did it cause of Swedens support of Lars Vilks, and because of Swedens war in Afghanistan. I respect him in a way, at least he fights for what he believes in, and we are at war. We should not be surprised when war then comes to us.
Oh I don't deny there are problems with teh Islam, I just don't see what this story adds to the issue.
IMO our primary concerns with Islam in the west is not about terrorism, but social issues. I'm more worried about how some Muslim women are treated by their husbands, than I am about getting blown up on a bus.
....and that, again, is not an argument against immigration per se, I might add.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
How badly they may be treated here, at least they get prosecuted when they whack the misses, as opposed to getting a medal for it.
Yes, I never used it as an argument against immigration.
Oh look - the Norwegian Islamic Council(the umbrella organization representing most muslim communities in Norway) immediately condemned the guy. But I guess this is just part of their deceitful plan to conquer the country...
So did Swedens.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
With all the important muslims condemning acts like this, one wonders why few muslims seem to care.
who are you arguing with, nobody said anything like that, leftist projectionQuote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
edit pic of splosion-boy http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments
Update; arrests in England. Because it's Sweden the police still keeps their jaws firmly locked on the background. Policor-lemmings.
Shibumi, how much of tnis is true? http://cavatus.wordpress.com/2010/11...tution-passed/
I know it's Sweden but that's a bit much even for you guys. Happy constitution.
A key point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Why do Muslimnuttersprotesters seem to resort to violence compared to others? Tamils haven't blown up parts of Europe for our inaction in Sri Lanka for example.
Yes they may well be a minority, but considering the harm that these can do to everyone else they do gain attention that is far greater than their numbers would suggest.
~:smoking:
The nutters are a problem to the moderates first, they are terrified, with good reason there is a lot of hidden misery. If beards come at your door asking why you don't go to the mosque that's really scary, night phonecalls, threatening letters, not very fun.
'I want YOU to be my second wife, and breed me lots of sons'
http://www.muslima.com/ar/profile/sh...archtotal=1816
I hope that if anything, this bombing serves as a wake up call. The truth of the matter is that the islamist beast cannot be pacified: the more you give, the more it will take and the more it will demand further down the road. The only way to deal with it is to confront it head on and to do it quickly. Complacency now will lead to much greater problems later.
They're the Borg and you *will* be assimilated if you don't put up a fight.
Wouldn't get too worked about this one, just an idiot, we will just have to get used to this happening from time to time, like school shootings or suicide by cop, only very few are likely to fry their brains like this. Certainly not the real thing they are somewhat smarter than discussing it on facebook, we found hidden code in jpeg's here, those are the pro's. Nothing to see here move alongQuote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Noone...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
No, but the RAF and various other groups blew up Europe over our failure to see the Marxist light.... And who are the ones setting london on fire over a few pounds?Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
I'm no fan of the Student Protests. They are spoilt children.
If the RAF is in light to WW2, again, I think that is one that the UK should have stayed out of it all, but sadly we didn't have a suitable Quisling.
~:smoking:
No, Socialism is the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
No, I'm talking about Rote Armee Fraktion.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
You know, our previous terrorists.
I think he means the other RAF, I confuse them myself sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
If only the Swedes had never invaded Iraq....
They had reliable info that Saddam was torturing reindeer, what should they have done?Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
They could have atleast gone to the UN for some more resolutions. Now they have ruined their standing with the entire muslim community. Maybe they can adopt Sharia law in order to show that they are tolerant to the peaceful and misunderstood message of Islam....Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
I hope so. I never did like Martians, all icky and green.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
That'd miss the point, no, rather they'd apologise post-mortem to mr. Hussein. And the best way to do that is by adapting a secular state, like his Iraq!Quote:
They could have atleast gone to the UN for some more resolutions. Now they have ruined their standing with the entire muslim community. Maybe they can adopt Sharia law in order to show that they are tolerant to the peaceful and misunderstood message of Islam....
Secular state? Good idea. Saddamist Kleptocracy? Not so good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Yeah, before you know it, they'd try to annex Denmark and China would intervene, only to return ten years later because there were weapons of mass destru -- oh, right.
That would probably earn them the peace prize....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Now, now our good ancient claims are on Finland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
A united Scandivia only needs to be looking 500 years back and changing who the dominant nation was.
Anyway, more on topic: He seems to be the "soul searching into something stupidly radical" type. Came to Sweden from Iraq at age ten 1992, been radicalising and traveling abroad (often in the Middle East) in the last few years.
And failed miserably because of screaming amateurism it's almost comical, well it is actually pretty comical. Can't believe people are making this so big it's rediculous to do, it's nothing keep your calms (as Swedes did). If this was the worst problem things would be really nice but it's much more dangerous socially speaking intended or not, 'attacks' don't help adressing the real issue: political correctness, Top-down blind faith in a flawed society where everybody is bound to feel lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
Until it happens again.... and again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
EDIT: Both of those pictures were hotlinked. Please host pictures yourself. BG
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiKingWarmanCake88
Those are the pro's, yeah things like (Sweden) this are going to happen again and again. Nothing you can do about it fact of life. If you were a muslim how would you want to go if you want to kill yourself , making it a religious act must be terribly tempting if you want to kill yourself anyway, but it's still suicide.
Such a defeatist attitude. It's like being at war but not bothering to fix any defensive positions because you know you're going to take casualties anyway.
This was not intended to be just a suicide, so it's really dumb to act as if it was just because that's how it turned out. He did not blow himself up because he was tired of life, he did so because islam teaches that the only way to be assured of a place in heaven is to kill and be killed for allah. He was an islamofascist, a jihadist and a would-be-massmurderer. Lets at least be honest about that.
Of course there are lots of things we can do to limit the possibility of another attack, of which two good examples would be to put our mosques under surveillance to see if they are preaching jihad (and to arrest and deport any imam that does), and to actually require people who come here to identify themselves.
In the UK he'd been spreading his "extreme" views in a Mosque until he was asked to leave. Did they call the police? No - it's not their job to do that...
I don't think that Mosques (or churches for that matter) should have to be under surveillance, but if the attitude of those in charge is that they won't mention to the authorities those who are spreading extreme views then I see little choice.
In the UK far from having the First Amendment we have Inciting Violence and Inciting Racial Hatred so there are plenty of laws to use if it were thought worth arresting, but in most cases I would have thought monitoring would be the best option.
~:smoking:
Nothing defeatist about it, when the pro's hit it really hurts and this clearly was an amateur. How do you intend to stop school shootings, I don't like it either but I'm not the one with respect. Deal with it, what can you really do about it? Congratulate the multicultists on their superior morality should you meet them in their 100% white neighborhoods.
The multiculti's probably are going to open www.dontyoudoit.com they think that way
What. The. Hell.Quote:
he did so because islam teaches that the only way to be assured of a place in heaven is to kill and be killed for allah.
That makes no sense at all. According to Islamic theology, suicides are sent to hell.
It's all semantics.
They're not committing suicide - they're dying on Jihad.
~:smoking:
That's a matter of debate, and yes, it is semantics. I think that most Islamic theologians would distinguish between blowing yourself up in a crowded area, and dying, sword-in-hand, engaged in hand-to-hand combat.Quote:
They're not committing suicide - they're dying on Jihad.
I based that on the Quran. You know, that old book that the muslims consider to be the final and unalterable word of god? Yeah, that one. See Sura 9, verse 111:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
"Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. "
Emphasis added.
As I said already, two examples that you can do would be to keep the mosques under surveillance to make sure that they can't be brainwashing the sheep with jihadist ideologies and get a better control (and in our case, any control) over who comes into our country. We can stop with this cultural relativistic nonsense and work to integrate the muslims into our society, and deport those who refuse or can't. We can get some self-respect and get rid of this yoke called "political correctness", etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I'm not saying that we can make it 100% sure it never happens again. That would be ridiculous. That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try to make it harder for them to do so, though.
Not really, you see simular behavior in the local right- and leftwing extremists, or religious "reborns". The suecide bomber is somewhat unique though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
It's a serious small scale problem, but not a huge issue. 0,3% of the terrorist actions in Europe (2006-2009) was related to Islam. But they do attempt to make it big when they try.
It's prett clear what the Qu'ran says some just mentally block it because multiculture is a religion as well. But things like things like this distract from the real villains like Ramadan and that Rouf guy
Being slain in battle is not the same as suicide. I'm not interested in a theological debate. That verse is stupid, hell, if you ask me, the entire Qur'an is basically pretty stupid, but I'm not interested in debating the origins of the Qur'an or where what verse came from, what it means and how it should be interpreted. That's something for the theologians. And if you ask me, I think it's better if the whole Sunni world would get back the old Mu'tazilite position that the Qur'an is not "the final and unalterable word of god".Quote:
"Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. "
EDIT: What irks me about your post is the fact that you said that "according to Islam" the only way for Muslims to get into heaven is through slaying and being slain. And that's...not really true.
I'm a pragmatist. The fact is this document causes a small but significant minority to kill themselves and others. The question is how to stop them doing this within the UK. Whether by alterations to education, surveillance, deportation or a combination of all three is where I see the most productive debate taking place.
~:smoking:
I concur. I don't think that deportation would be a good way to do it. They'd come back (illegally, if needed) and then blow themselves up.Quote:
I'm a pragmatist. The fact is this document causes a small but significant minority to kill themselves and others. The question is how to stop them doing this within the UK. Whether by alterations to education, surveillance, deportation or a combination of all three is where I see the most productive debate taking place.
Look, if you want to debate whether that verse covers suicide bombing, you will have to do that with the jihadists. They clearly think it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
So do I, but that is not very likely to happen, and the world is as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Then perhaps I can quell that irk and inform you that you misunderstood my post. I did not say that muslims must do it to get into heaven. However, whenever the Quran talks about getting into heaven, it makes it clear that it is a gift, not a reward: you cannot earn it, no matter how good you are (see Surah 28:67). It does make one exception though, and that is as in the above quoted Sura 9:111. That is, according to the Quran, the only way to be guaranteed a place in heaven - and a special place at that - is by "killing and being killed for Allah". That's what I was saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Yeah, but they are stupid. We both know that. Good point, though.Quote:
Look, if you want to debate whether that verse covers suicide bombing, you will have to do that with the jihadists. They clearly think it does.
Eh, I'm not so sure. It's recently been proposed again in some points (most famously by 'Ali Abdel Raziq), and while it's still not any good right now, perhaps opinions will change. The Wahhabist movement is no older than 200 years, maybe it'll die out as just another unsuccessful offspring.Quote:
So do I, but that is not very likely to happen, and the world is as it is.
That doesn't really make any sense, and I think if you ask two imams on who gets into heaven, you'll get three different answers. Like in the other Abrahamic Religions, it's either hell or heaven. Where do you go if not to hell, nor heaven?Quote:
Then perhaps I can quell that irk and inform you that you misunderstood my post. I did not say that muslims must do it to get into heaven. However, whenever the Quran talks about getting into heaven, it makes it clear that it is a gift, not a reward: you cannot earn it. It does make one exception though, and that is in the above quoted Sura 9:111. That is, according to the Quran, the only way to be guaranteed a place in heaven - and a special place at that - is by "killing and being killed for Allah". That's what I was saying.
Purgatory as any good Catholic would say. You just disappear if you're an atheist though.
I don't think that the concept of Purgatory exists in Islam. The concept of an impermanent hell does exist, and the only theological argument I can think of, is that people just remain in their coffins until Judgement Day.Quote:
Purgatory as any good Catholic would say. You just disappear if you're an atheist though.
I don't see how this makes any less sense than any heaven-story. If you don't follow the teachings of Islam, you go to hell. If you follow the teachings of Islam, then you have a chance - but only if Allah wills it. However, if you die as a martyr, then you've essentially signed a contract with Allah, and you will be guaranteed a place in heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
If you want this substantiated, look to what Muhammed is supposed to have said:
"No good works of yours can ever secure heaven for you, nor can they save you from hell -- not even me, without the grace of God."
Surahs from the Quran, like 9:111 quoted above, make the exception for martyrdom.
This debate will end up in something concerning interpretation, as is often the case with theology. I know of imams that say that polytheists will get into paradise if they have lived a good life. I know of imams that say that secular muslims will end up in hell for all eternity.Quote:
I don't see how this makes any less sense than any heaven-story. If you don't follow the teachings of Islam, you go to hell. If you follow the teachings of Islam, then you have a chance - but only if Allah wills it. However, if you die as a martyr, then you've essentially signed a contract with Allah, and you will be guaranteed a place in heaven.
In any case, this is pointless, really.
Some people just refuse to accept that there are other inteerpretations than OBL's.
Muslims are just as capable of emphasizing different things in the quran as christians are with the bible. There will be muslims who emphasize violence, and there will be muslims who emphasize peace, and they can both find support for their position in the quran. Just like both feminists and those who believe women belong in the kitchen can find support for their position in the bible. Or the quran for that matter.
I know christians who say that their god is opposed to any and all violence. And I was in the army with a christian who refered to himself as a holy warrior.
Some people refuse to accept that everybody but a few idiots know that
Frags just made a post without referring to "the leftist church"!!
Anybody got the cake and fireworks to celebrate?
No need, it's there for everyone to seeQuote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
As soon as Christians start blowing themselves up then they need monitoring. If Girl Guides start doing it then they need monitoring.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
It's what they do, not why they do it.
~:smoking:
How was that related to what I was talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
I find that I have never in the very slightest been at all interested in which Koranic verse or whose prophet says what that legitimises which violent act, or not.
Why should I care? I care about it not at all more than I do whether a street mugger wants to steal my wallet for flashy sneakers or new gold teeth.
I don't care what you've read in your fantasy books, whether Sauron has told you I'm an evil hobbit or whether *certain man with an uncommon marital choice* promised you dozens of virgins. It's all fine with me, just don't involve me, for example, by blowimg me up.
Well, besides enabling us to do something about it, the reason why it's important to point out that they're doing it because of their religious beliefs is because of all the lies they spread, which leftists so eagerly swallow. They are not attacking us for anything that we have done or anything that we are doing: they are attacking us because their religion tells them to do so. We need to be very clear on the fact that we have every right to fight them, and that continuing this road of appeasement will not make them stop. It will only embolden them to make more and more demands, until we've been completely stripped of our liberties and are forced to live our whole lives by their instructions.
The irony being the fact that what The Celtic Viking just posted could've been said by a member of al-Qaeda. It's interesting to see how al-Zarqawi's perception and TCV's perception of Islam are exactly the same.
No, what I said could not be said by a member of al-Qaeda, because they rather support the islamization of the west, remember? What I said is that we need to fight against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
As for my perception of Islam, I'm only going by how muslims consistently portray it, and by what it's authoritative texts are telling me about it. I mean, if I invented a religion right here and now that called for violence and massmurder, and I then commited violence and massmurder, pointing to my religion to justify it... could people really fault you if you saw that religion as being a violent one that supports massmurder? Would it make your view on it more or less false because it happened to be the same as mine?
Swap a couple of words around and you have their basic message.Quote:
No, what I said could not be said by a member of al-Qaeda, because they rather support the islamization of the west, remember? What I said is that we need to fight against it.
I don't think Islam or any religion is inherently violent. Neither the Qur'an nor Islamic history argue that Islam is a violent religion, as we've seen that notable Islamic scholars, even from right after Muhammad's death have re-interpreted the Qur'an to say something else. The Sabians of Iraq? Not necessarily protected under Islamic law, but they managed to interpret several scriptures to say they were. The status of Buddhists and Hindus? They largely lived as dhimmis and were not regarded as kafirun by the Muslim conquerors.Quote:
As for my perception of Islam, I'm only going by how muslims consistently portray it, and by what it's authoritative texts are telling me about it. I mean, if I invent a religion right here and right now that calls for violence and massmurder, and I then commit violence and massmurder, pointing to my religion to justify it... could people really fault you if you saw that religion as being a violent one that supports massmurder? Would it make your view on it more or less false because it happened to be the same as mine?
Is this a reference to the Shi'ite concept of taqiyyah? Or is it just a general attack in the direction of Muslims that spread lies?Quote:
the reason why it's important to point out that they're doing it because of their religious beliefs is because of all the lies they spread
Oh yeah? Then where are the historical mass murders? I don't see any Muslims barging my door down now to kill me. Are they barging your door in?Quote:
they are attacking us because their religion tells them to do so.
You're pretending, or it looks like you are, at least, that true Muslims are obliged to kill non-Muslims all the time, everywhere without ceasing. And thus, Muslims that are not doing that are Muslims-lite. I'm inclined to believe the opposite, that the ones who call for the mass-murder of non-Muslims are the Muslims-lite. You'll see that institutions like al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood were founded by and still have a core of people with no background in Islamic theology. Sayyid Qutb? A school teacher. Osama bin Laden? Trained as an engineer in Switzerland. Al-Zarqawi? An alcoholic thug with very little schooling at all.
And let's not forget that terrorist groups have killed more Muslims than other people. Some of them even call for the death of secular Muslims. Y'know, the same secular Muslims you don't trust either, apparently.
Exactly. A religion is only as good as its followers.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
But can't really say they are them, 'they' are mostly 'their' problem. It's a bit silly to put no effort in trying to understand what drives them. I'm as uncompromising as can be when it comes to these beards but if there is a cultural clash I want to know why.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Exactly. We need to differentiate.Quote:
But can't really say they are them, 'they' are mostly 'their' problem. It's a bit silly to put no effort in trying to understand what drives them. I'm as uncompromising as can be when it comes to these beards but if there is a cultural clash I want to know why.
There is nothing that makes my nipples harder than watching the "tolerant" do the most amazing display of word definition gymnastics when trying to protect their pet religion of Islam. You would think George Bush was clubbing a baby seal with the jaw bone of an endangered white rino while doing a slash/burn of 10,000 acres of rainforest in order to build a coal plant for the production of coal to use to power oil rigs from the wailing and gnashing of teeth at any utterance of the teachings of good old peaceful Islam...
Proofs in the circumcised vagina as they say...
Oh yes, female circumcision, the african practice performed by members of a dozen religions.
People who say the Islam isn't violent can't read, but fact remains that only a tiny percentage of western muslims are violent. They may aprove violence when you ask them, Qu'ran says, but they aren't violent themselves. We don't have the balls to do what needs to be done, treating the real radicals like foreign spies in wartime, we are at war with radical Islam after allQuote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave