Hard is pretty hard!

Hello all, been a long time since I posted anything, but got to playing STW2 last night and I must say it is a bit of a challenge for me.

I played on 'hard' difficulty, and found the campaign to be just that.
First try as Tokugawa. Managed to defeat the forces from Oda, but the Saiko clan to the north then took their province after I had conventiently wiped out most of their forces. Leaving me with one province, and as a vassal so I can only declare war on my overlord. But with just the one province I cannot afford the forces I need, especially since they are allied with the Saiko clan that holds the old Oda territory above me :/

Second try was Chosokabe. Started out out with victory over the rebels and a stack from my northern enemy. All poised to take their province, and the clan to my east declares war and moves in with a stack. I manage to hold it off but lose men doing so, forcing me to spend time and money replacing them. During this time both other clans build up their strength too. Can't afford a two-front war, and don't have anything worth giving to get a peace agreement with one either.

So there it is... won the battles, but lost the campaign. I feel like Pyrrhus.

Tips?

Daevyll

Yeah, ditto here. Started an Oda campaign, on hard, and got blown away turn 2, almost certainly the same way as you took out the Oda. Basically, turn 1 I destroyed the Oda rebels, then turn 2 Saiko and Tokugawa combined to wipe me off the map. I've heard a lot of people over at the .com site say that Oda die out very early each time, and that's certainly my impression given the sequence of events that happened to me. :)

Heh, i lost my first campaign (on hard) in about 5 turns when i left my capital (and sole starting province) empty save for 1 unit of yari ashigaru. Next turn a half stack of enemy turn up and my general, daimyo and rest of my troops are too far away to help (travel distances per turn seem much shorter than in previous TW games).

Tips? Play on normal till you've learned the game!

Sounds like when one is in the middle of the map he should move against enemies and directions that make his position safer ie back against the sea or an easily defensible crossing (river/mountain).

The very geographical shape of japan aids this phenomenon of enemies becoming stronger by taking over the neighbour you beat up, and i think in reality it was the same.

It's the nigh perfect setting for a TW game. No need to cry about being backstabbed or diplomacy not "working" either.

Oh yes, agree with you there. I loved the original STW - the setting, the clans, the vibrant colours - and S2TW is looking extremely promising so far. I don't think there's a better scenario for a TW game. The simplicity and consistency of unit types across the clans combined with the rock paper scissor formula actually leads to more depth on the battlefield than did the swathe of units of previous titles, ETW being the worst.

I'll try Oda again, this time trying to see if I can make peace with either Tokugawa or Saiko before pressing the end turn button. :)

Good luck, enjoy :)

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Originally Posted by gollum

Good luck, enjoy :)

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Well,since you're on the hard setting,you will get this(CA have this time foucsed on the conteny)

My solution is this.

Since you begin 1467 to 1600.I dont think it is wise to rasie a big army at the year 1467,then take it off somewhere to conqer,then the Ai come in your captial.

To prevent this,you must first get rid of rebel armies in your border.Get rid of any other armies getting in your border.Bulid a navy,(Will be helpful)

It would be wise to bulid,trade and do a alliance.Thats what the game's about,its not like Napoleon or Medevial.

Its more like Rome.

But you're given a faction,like a acorn,to make it grow into a tree.

Which is why it is important to bulid barracks,dojos,and farming.Farming ,timber ,they're the most important,with out that,you dont have rescourse,nor money,nor people.

I would build,and concentrate,remeber this game is based on the art of war.so you must be careful,and dont be so careless to lead your army in some territory and then lose your capptial.
You should have a decent Army defending your captial.Before you can move,you may be tempeted,but you should not,it is the reason why you will lose in the first place.

1.Bulid,trade,allaince

2.bulid 2 armies,one for attacking,one for defending.

3rd.Bulid a navy(They may be very useful)

4th.When you have the defending army.Use the attacking army and invade .

6th.Your defending army will remain defedning the captial.

7th.Make armies,bulid,trade as usal,and become Shogun!


hope this helps!:book:

Good oldschool strategy Emperor, cautious and slow build up. Indeed with some clans it would/should work best, that is with clans that have many enemies around them.

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Originally Posted by Daveybaby

Tips? Play on normal till you've learned the game!

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This is probably what I'll do; funny seeing how the last TW game I played on normal was the original STW, so a worthy sequel indeed.

Mine shipped today, can't wait!

I normally start TW games on Hard/Hard. Will see how long I last, though will try a clan less surrounded first.

lol i'm sure they all knew that

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Originally Posted by gollum

Good oldschool strategy Emperor, cautious and slow build up. Indeed with some clans it would/should work best, that is with clans that have many enemies around them.

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Thanks.

I discovered this in Rome.and in history(look at the tokugawa clan).

You will win,if you follow these 7 rules.

Right, i'll keep them in mind, thanks Emperor.

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Originally Posted by gollum

Right, i'll keep them in mind, thanks Emperor.

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Your welcome:book:

ive been struggling on H as Date. i was doing fine at teh start but then some minor clan came up and declared on me. and i struggled to hold them off, then they got wiped out by the hojo and i managed to steal a province or 2, then the hojo declared on me, and again i struggled to hold them off, then another major clan came up and started owning the hojo and i only have like 1 big army :S


my biggest struggle atm is money, i just cant earn enough to field armies AND develope my province.

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Originally Posted by Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe

Well,since you're on the hard setting,you will get this(CA have this time foucsed on the conteny)

My solution is this.

Since you begin 1467 to 1600.I dont think it is wise to rasie a big army at the year 1467,then take it off somewhere to conqer,then the Ai come in your captial.

To prevent this,you must first get rid of rebel armies in your border.Get rid of any other armies getting in your border.Bulid a navy,(Will be helpful)

It would be wise to bulid,trade and do a alliance.Thats what the game's about,its not like Napoleon or Medevial.

Its more like Rome.

But you're given a faction,like a acorn,to make it grow into a tree.

Which is why it is important to bulid barracks,dojos,and farming.Farming ,timber ,they're the most important,with out that,you dont have rescourse,nor money,nor people.

I would build,and concentrate,remeber this game is based on the art of war.so you must be careful,and dont be so careless to lead your army in some territory and then lose your capptial.
You should have a decent Army defending your captial.Before you can move,you may be tempeted,but you should not,it is the reason why you will lose in the first place.

1.Bulid,trade,allaince

2.bulid 2 armies,one for attacking,one for defending.

3rd.Bulid a navy(They may be very useful)

4th.When you have the defending army.Use the attacking army and invade .

6th.Your defending army will remain defedning the captial.

7th.Make armies,bulid,trade as usal,and become Shogun!


hope this helps!:book:

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Yeah, its like playing one of the small factions from EB where Arche Seleukia will spam waves of full stacks at you.

Stubbornly keeping to Hard setting, I tried the Mori clan.

Must say it went better than before, with me taking an early lead in capturing sea trade spots and using the finances to develop my provinces and take some lands. Killed off the clan to my immediate west, and to the northeast, for a total of 5 provinces.

That's when the real trouble began.

Lost all but one of my tradespots to enemy fleet action, highlighting my dependance on trade income for it plummeted enormously. Developing your castles etc costs 'food' as well as time and money, and I have a negative amount of food now causing massive unhappiness and thus rebellions.

So basically at the moment I have an empty treasury, a negative income, a fairly big army that is occupied fighting rebels in my own lands, and a fleet that can safeguard exactly 1 tradespot, since if I split it it will be overwhelmed. I also can't afford to replace losses.

Key seems to be to balance your economic development; being opportunistic is the main thing, you dont want victories, you want CHEAP victories ;P

So far I really like the game; it gives quite a challenge on the strategic front without feeling ridiculously slanted towards the AI.

Balancing between developing and making armies and expanding was a key aspect of the original. Basically you could easily spread too thin or stagnate if turtle too much, and you needed to tell which of the two you should be doing at any point in the campaign as conditions changed due to the balance of power in the other clans. Its nice to hear its back.

In recent TWs you could either turtle and start rolling by development alone, or simply rush with impunity till you were too big to stop by the AI factions. In the Japanese setting, were its "total war" thinking of the balance of power of your neighbours and your neighbours neighours sounds like key as it should be. It sounds good.

gaem dowloaded yesterday cant wait to get home, should i do a sicky half day?

From what people post, you better do one full day ;)

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Originally Posted by Daevyll

Stubbornly keeping to Hard setting, I tried the Mori clan.

Must say it went better than before, with me taking an early lead in capturing sea trade spots and using the finances to develop my provinces and take some lands. Killed off the clan to my immediate west, and to the northeast, for a total of 5 provinces.

That's when the real trouble began.

Lost all but one of my tradespots to enemy fleet action, highlighting my dependance on trade income for it plummeted enormously. Developing your castles etc costs 'food' as well as time and money, and I have a negative amount of food now causing massive unhappiness and thus rebellions.

So basically at the moment I have an empty treasury, a negative income, a fairly big army that is occupied fighting rebels in my own lands, and a fleet that can safeguard exactly 1 tradespot, since if I split it it will be overwhelmed. I also can't afford to replace losses.

Key seems to be to balance your economic development; being opportunistic is the main thing, you dont want victories, you want CHEAP victories ;P

So far I really like the game; it gives quite a challenge on the strategic front without feeling ridiculously slanted towards the AI.

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Let see.Emtpy treasure,(You took my advice,did not listen to it)Negative income.Rebel armies.

1st.Do a low tax rate.(It works.

2nd.Beat the Rebel AI armies.

3rd.In your lands,once you defeat the The Rebel AI,I suggest doing some raids,or taking one more province,wil supply you with money,you should have made a navy.You went to to fast,took 5 proivinces,and you're streacthed.you should have done this carefully.

Example

Take 2 provinces from the north.(Rebulid them to your own purpose)And tax them.

then take 1 more to the south.do the same.

3,4,5 take them aslo,by secruing allianes,doing bribes


But you're going to lose,you compelety forget what this game is about.Its about becoming Shogun of Japan,simply by taking 5 provinces and then getting your enocomy bankrupt shows you are not fit to be shogun.This is what Total war is about,not by taking so many pronvinces then with a little mioney left in your treasury/


Its about cleverniess,deception,and skil and wit.

You dont want Cheap victoiures,you are underestimating the AI,CA have improved the AI in land and sea ,and campagin.Dont be so foolish to this same mistake.This AI has improved so much,the more you take provinces,the more it will be aggresive,I bet in one momth or so,The AI will take 3 of your 5 provinces,Mark my words.

DO this to prevent it

1.do a low tax rate

2.defeat rebel armies,raid new lands.

3rd.use your big army to gain profit.

4th.seucre alliances with the Neighboruing clan,so when the AI comes to attack,the Neighboruing clan,your allies,will oppose them.

see?

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Originally Posted by Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe

Stuff

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m8, no offence but the rest of the forum does not consist of complete idiots and your brand of generic oversimplified 'strategies' is as redundant as your delivery is annoying.

So lets leave it at the fact that I enjoy the challenge at the hard difficulty level and like to share my experiences with others ok? Yoda I seek not.

Does sending armies to raid out-of-settlement buildings like farms and ports give you money?

Anyway, I was finally able to take Iyo province on my 2nd/3rd try at a Legendary Chosokabe campaign. Unfortunately I tried the same trick against the Miyoshi, not reckoning on the difference between them and the Kono. I tried to follow up successful defence of Tosa by marching through the forest into Awa but the Miyoshi had to many troops there for me to take it, then the marched an army around and took Tosa before I could get back. I laid siege to the castle with hopes of getting it back, but they sent *another* army and I got destroyed. There were only two people left in the army, my Daimyo and his starting general. Couldn't recover from that.

:laugh4: Has anyone reported winning a campaign yet? :laugh4:

Looking at the Global Achievement stats for winning campaigns -

Easy - 4%
Medium - 0.7%
Hard - 0.1%
Very Hard - 0%
Legendary - 0%

Hard to say what these numbers actually mean, but it's certainly consistent with the theory that Shogun 2's campaign is pretty tough. Good job, CA!

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Originally Posted by Cecil XIX

Looking at the Global Achievement stats for winning campaigns -

Easy - 4%
Medium - 0.7%
Hard - 0.1%
Very Hard - 0%
Legendary - 0%

Hard to say what these numbers actually mean, but it's certainly consistent with the theory that Shogun 2's campaign is pretty tough. Good job, CA!

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I'd imagine other people ran into the same problem I did, going way too unprepared for Realm Divide.
The real reason it's so challenging is because you're essentially deprived of all trade, and I've always relied on trade for my money in Total Wars.

I ordered the game yesterday so I have yet to play the game. What do you mean by Realm Divide? Isn't trade established like in ETW and the like?

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Originally Posted by Daevyll

m8, no offence but the rest of the forum does not consist of complete idiots and your brand of generic oversimplified 'strategies' is as redundant as your delivery is annoying.

So lets leave it at the fact that I enjoy the challenge at the hard difficulty level and like to share my experiences with others ok? Yoda I seek not.

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This is really insulting.

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originally posted by Zarky
The real reason it's so challenging is because you're essentially deprived of all trade, and I've always relied on trade for my money in Total Wars.

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Trade from RTW onwards always made too much money too quickly and without restrictions (in MTW too you could make lots but once you went to war profits zeroed because you couldn;t trade within your faction). Seems like finally the available funds require considerations on how to best spend them. Good job indeed CA.

If reports continue like this, i may end up buying this just motivated by SP.

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Originally Posted by Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe

This is really insulting.

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Great. You have insulted each other. Call it a draw, shake hands (or bow to each other) and move on. Let's not forget to be civil and respectful of each other.

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Originally Posted by A Nerd

I ordered the game yesterday so I have yet to play the game. What do you mean by Realm Divide? Isn't trade established like in ETW and the like?

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I only heard of realm divide from Jack's BR that was linked here. After capturing a set of provinces and becoming too large, the shogun asks everybody to declare war on you. The only factions who will not will be ones that are really friendly to you. I haven't reached it yet since I'm slowly taking my time.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

Great. You have insulted each other. Call it a draw, shake hands (or bow to each other) and move on. Let's not forget to be civil and respectful of each other.

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no thank you.

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Originally Posted by Daevyll

m8, no offence but the rest of the forum does not consist of complete idiots and your brand of generic oversimplified 'strategies' is as redundant as your delivery is annoying.

So lets leave it at the fact that I enjoy the challenge at the hard difficulty level and like to share my experiences with others ok? Yoda I seek not.

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It is that thing which has enbaled humans to become what we are today.How did we grow here?Wee bulided,we made wars,we made alliances,populations expanded,we made trade.

Its the same with Buiness.anything some one does,or anything else new,must be clever,and know what is going to happen.

That way,you will win

Heh, hard is indeed hard, unlike previous TW games where all levels were 'easy' :)

I've now lost two Oda campaigns on hard, perhaps not surprising when the Oda AI controlled always die out turn 2.

I'm now trying Takeda on hard and that's going better, i.e. I've lasted >10 turns. However, this time around I'm finding different problems to contend with. Having too many allies can be detrimental, the simple matter being that I'm now competing to conquer territories. At times I've found myself providing the softening blow to a mutual enemy only for my ally (Hojo) to then sweep in and take the province. I still only have 1 province. lol.

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Originally Posted by Jambo

I've heard a lot of people over at the .com site say that Oda die out very early each time, and that's certainly my impression given the sequence of events that happened to me. :)

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Oda became a powerhouse for years, but like many other clans: they were tiny at 'start'. It's a authentic that TWS2 offers challenging factions, thumbs up to CA for that.

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Originally Posted by Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe

I laugh at your studitpy.It is that thing which has enbaled humans to become what we are today.How did we grow here?Wee bulided,we made wars,we made alliances,populations expanded,we made trade.

Its the same with Buiness.anything some one does,or anything else new,must be clever,and know what is going to happen.

That way,you will win

further stop insulting me,Or I will lash out.

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it hink you msut be mistaking this with .com Forums

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Originally Posted by Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe

I laugh at your studitpy.

...

further stop insulting me,Or I will lash out.

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Jesus, dude. You have a habit of calling people stupid and idiots if you dont agree with them (noticed this in several posts already) not to mention racist if they dont happen to like the same games you do. So I would suggest you put your own house in order first if you dont want to be insulted.

And if a moderator suggests you leave it be, probably best to leave it be.
Alternatively, go ahead and lash out. Should be entertaining.

Wait... this game is challenging? We're talking about a Total War game, right? Really, honestly, challenging? Is that because the AI is good or the AI is stupid, but immortal? Also, is this just first impressions from a day or two of play, or is this something likely to continue for months of gameplay?

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Also, is this just first impressions from a day or two of play, or is this something likely to continue for months of gameplay?

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Well, realistically, unless CA have managed to develop a learning human level AI (which would be front page news across the world) then there are probably some failings which will come to light over the next few weeks/months, and probably some cheap tricks which will exploit certain tendencies in the AI's behaviour.

But yeah, it's a challenging game. Challenging in a good way. I havent seen the AI do anything stupid so far. It doesnt seem to cheat, by, say, magicing up full stacks from nowhere AFAICT. Diplomacy seems sane, no meaningless DoWs by your allies (except apparently at some point you become big enough to challenge the shogun and all the remaining clans unite against you: which i have no problem with at all). If someone *does* DoW on you, then it's worth sitting up and taking notice, because they *will* bring the fight to you (unlike, say M2TW or ETW), so you'd better be prepared.

On normal you have to pay attention.
On hard its... hard.

Never though i'd say this of a TW game again, but it's worth buying in its release state (unless you have a fetish for anti aliasing).

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Wait... this game is challenging? We're talking about a Total War game, right? Really, honestly, challenging? Is that because the AI is good or the AI is stupid, but immortal? Also, is this just first impressions from a day or two of play, or is this something likely to continue for months of gameplay?

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Well, if you count first impressions as losing my first two campaigns on hard, then yes the game is definitely challenging. CAI is vastly better than previous TW iterations and diplomacy is now sensible. The BAI is helped by the fact that there is less unit variety and sieges are comparatively simpler. There's still some passive AI when the AI has reinforcements. That's the worst bug I've encountered and it's a bad one.

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Originally Posted by andrewt

I only heard of realm divide from Jack's BR that was linked here. After capturing a set of provinces and becoming too large, the shogun asks everybody to declare war on you. The only factions who will not will be ones that are really friendly to you. I haven't reached it yet since I'm slowly taking my time.

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Yes, Realm Divide happens when your clan fame reaches Legendary (so it's not a fixed number of provinces or anything) or when you take Kyoto (or after holding Kyoto for a while, I haven't actually managed to do so even once yet). First time it happened to me, almost everyone declared war on me, thus ending trade agreements. Only one who didn't declare war was my ally. I don't know how many will actually declare war on you when it happens, since in my game it was down to clans of 5 provinces or larger. It was really devastating for me since most of my provinces were in the process of developing when my income plummeted to 1000.

My apologies for interrupting the discussion and closing the thread because some members cant seem to comprehend the forum rules. I will open the thread again once the situation is sorted out.