Hate for Israel is hating it's succes?

Talking about gutmensch not the muslims. Never understood the collective outrage of the European left about Israel while they are united in silence when things far more horrible happen in non-Israeli parts of the world, it's taken for granted it doesn't interest them. There has got to be a reason for that. Read an interesting article that boldly tries to understand leftist logic.

Fact, Israel is by far the most succesful country in the region. It's heaps above all others technologically, financially, intellectually, everything-actually. And no matter how much they try to financially help the Palestinians it's of no use.

Is it a existional problem that cultures just aren't equal even when given the same chances. Gutmensch wouldn't be 100% right and there's something deeply wrong about that?

well, the end of time prophecy will be completed by Israelis rebuild their temple, despite all the outside obstacle. When Jesus comes again, just remember to ask him.

Pff, the problem with your argument is that Israel isn't a success story.

Yeah, it's technologically superiorto most of it's neighbors, but that's not surprising considering really large parts of the population aren't natives but migrated there from other first world countries.
It's a bit like saying the american settlers were technologically superior to the "indians", true but hardly a big surprise.
Dubai also has some really big and modern buildings but the architects weren't natives AFAIK, these countries import technology and knowledge.
Not that that's wrong but the technology is not their direct achievement.

If you look at the ultra orthodox jews you could even say it's religiously on a similar level to that of it's neighbors, maybe not on the whole spectrum but on average, Israel has people who throw stones at christian visitors purely because of religious differences, hardly advanced or enlightened.
And then they still haven't managed to stop being at constant war with their neighbors and their attempts to build settlements on land that isn't theirs are kinda medieval as well.
While Europe has gone from TotalWar to being peaceful, allied, with flourishing trade(if we ignore cucumbers) and cooperation, Israel has managed hardly any progress in roughly the same timeframe.
Different situation of course and you can blame their neighbors all you want but just surviving through violence is not progress. One kind of progress could be convincing it's neighbors of it's own enlightenment and convincing them to join in and work together but Israel consistently fails to achieve that, think of the American occupation of Germany that inspired our country, turned us into capitalist peaceniks etc.
That wasn't achieved by brutally keeping us down, it was achieved by investing into us, by helping us get up again etc., something that Israel does not even do with the neighbors that are at it's feet.

Just because a country has better tanks than it's neighbors you can't say it's a success story.

Yah, I actually think Israel is in terrible danger right now, largely due to Likud. Remember the saying, "Any strength can turn into a weakness"? The current Israeli administration seems to be determined to prove that principle.

I am particularly gobsmacked by Israel's casual destruction and subversion of its (strategically vital) relationship with Turkey. Amazing.

Inb4 Israel DoW's Iran

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Originally Posted by Husar

While Europe has gone from TotalWar to being peaceful, allied, with flourishing trade(if we ignore cucumbers) and cooperation, Israel has managed hardly any progress in roughly the same timeframe.

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That's false, Israel has active trade agreements with countries such as Jordan and it is the most agricultural centre (technology wise) which it a very good trading partner to the nations.

However, on the political scale, there are still the issues.

The problem with Israel is the same problem that many mexicans would have back in the war where they took their land because of war.

Israel doesn't deserve any land if it wasn't conquered by them. I never saw a revolt with success, only Americans bullying the other countries because of the interests of the newly formed country.

I am not in favour of Palestine either, there should not be a state for the jewish, neither a state for the muslims.

~Jirisys ()

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Originally Posted by jirisys

The problem with Israel is the same problem that many mexicans would have back in the war where they took their land because of war.

Israel doesn't deserve any land if it wasn't conquered by them. I never saw a revolt with success, only Americans bullying the other countries because of the interests of the newly formed country.

I am not in favour of Palestine either, there should not be a state for the jewish, neither a state for the muslims.

~Jirisys ()

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How is America involved in the 1948 War of Independance? What does this even have to do with the USA? The American-Israeli alliance has little to do with the success of Israel as it only really started to be excercized to its full extent after Israel had already secured its position in the Six Days War.

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Originally Posted by Populus Romanus

How is America involved in the 1948 War of Independance? What does this even have to do with the USA? The American-Israeli alliance has little to do with the success of Israel as it only really started to be excercized to its full extent after Israel had already secured its position in the Six Days War.

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Throughout the Roosevelt and Truman administrations, the Departments of War and State recognized the possibility of a Soviet-Arab connection and the potential Arab restriction on Oil supplies to the US, and advised against U.S. intervention on behalf of the Jews.[12] With continuing conflict in the area and worsening humanitarian conditions among Holocaust survivors in Europe, on 29 November 1947 and with US support, the United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 181, the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, which was to create Jewish and Arab states and take effect upon British withdrawal. The decision was heavily lobbied by Zionist supporters, which Truman himself later noted,[13] and rejected by the Arabs.

Well, while it's true that American relations were late, it's decision and that of the UN (and particularly Britain) helped the state of Israel to emerge. Though after the holocaust, I wouldn't blame anyone to do so, but it's humanitarian purpose was tampered with the fact that they were going to kick out a whole population in order for another to be there, just because the UK owned the land.

~Jirisys ()

Israel created its oasis of a modern Western Democracy out of the hard work and strong wills of its residents. I didn't see any american troops in Israel in any of its wars. They created there nation despite the racism and bigotry that surrounds them. Because I don't think alot of administrations and residents of the middle east like the Israelis very much.

Also Husar Israel is vastly superior to other Middle East nations im not sure how much contention that fac tis under.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Israel created its oasis of a modern Western Democracy out of the hard work and strong wills of its residents. I didn't see any american troops in Israel in any of its wars. They created there nation despite the racism and bigotry that surrounds them. Because I don't think alot of administrations and residents of the middle east like the Israelis very much.

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Modern Western Democracy. I like how people smear those words around as to say that it's the best thing in the world. Truth is, Democracy doesn't really bring anything good. Just change every certain period of time. A president screws up, it's not fault of democracy, but of the person itself and it's interest. Thing is, if a tyrant is bad, well, they're screwed. That's the big difference.

You don't need american troops in Israel to state that it has become a fabrication aided by US interests and money. It's clear in more recent events than in the early days.

Israel superior to other middle east nations? With it's great intelligence service, one that does not assassinate people in foreign countries. Closing their borders with walls. Gunning down men who cross the border. Also they seem to have good xenophobic sentiments against muslims, kinda like it's the opposite in muslim countries.

Funny thing is, Israel is actually a great country. Though, same with the US, it has a great track record of pissing people off.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Also Husar Israel is vastly superior to other Middle East nations im not sure how much contention that fac tis under.

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But if you need to compare Israel with Palestine or Syria to conclude “Israel is a success” you've rather devalued the meaning of success IMO. :no:

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Israel created its oasis of a modern Western Democracy out of the hard work and strong wills of its residents. I didn't see any american troops in Israel in any of its wars. They created there nation despite the racism and bigotry that surrounds them. Because I don't think alot of administrations and residents of the middle east like the Israelis very much.

Also Husar Israel is vastly superior to other Middle East nations im not sure how much contention that fac tis under.

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There are so many wrongs in that, that I do not even know where to begin. I guess I have to just wing it.

1. No, Israel did very much not create anything, it was gifted to them after WWII.

2. You might be right about not seeing any US troops - but how about US jets, weapons, ammo.. It might come as a surprise to you, but support is not only measured in troops.

3. As to the the.. Nah, I can not be bothered.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Talking about gutmensch not the muslims. Never understood the collective outrage of the European left about Israel while they are united in silence when things far more horrible happen in non-Israeli parts of the world, it's taken for granted it doesn't interest them. There has got to be a reason for that. Read an interesting article that boldly tries to understand leftist logic.

Fact, Israel is by far the most succesful country in the region. It's heaps above all others technologically, financially, intellectually, everything-actually. And no matter how much they try to financially help the Palestinians it's of no use.

Is it a existional problem that cultures just aren't equal even when given the same chances. Gutmensch wouldn't be 100% right and there's something deeply wrong about that?

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I'm absolutely amazed and happy with how the Israelis managed to develop their barren land in a way never seen before, including being surrounded by enemies. Their success is brilliant. However, that is largely besides the point of why I don't like the State of Israel.

However, since I recently did a paper on US External Policy on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I came across something cute that I wasn't aware of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity_in_Israel

Apparently Israelis weren't as good wealth creators out of the nothing as I thought. Likewise, when stuck in a situation where help was hindered and the land produced very little, they also suffered from a very frail economy with no investment, importing most of what it consumed and exporting very little, and financing its expenses on credit. They weren't spontaneously successful just by having created the State. Obviously once they started getting more and more aid, they had financial margin to do projects that otherwise wouldn't be feasible.

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

There are so many wrongs in that, that I do not even know where to begin. I guess I have to just wing it.

1. No, Israel did very much not create anything, it was gifted to them after WWII.

2. You might be right about not seeing any US troops - but how about US jets, weapons, ammo.. It might come as a surprise to you, but support is not only measured in troops.

3. As to the the.. Nah, I can not be bothered.

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1. And they then promptly were forced to fight a war for their fledgling nation. Also simply being given land does not equate to having a functioning nation.

2. I am well aware of the extensive logistical support of the US and how many US made weapons of war the Israelis use. I am also well aware of the extensive production of weapons the Israelis produce themselves. This coupled along with the fact that their neighbors were also heavily supplied by national governments (Egypt had Soviet trainers and extensive gifts of equipment) is good to point out.

3. Then I can't be bothered to point out where you are incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

I'm absolutely amazed and happy with how the Israelis managed to develop their barren land in a way never seen before, including being surrounded by enemies. Their success is brilliant. However, that is largely besides the point of why I don't like the State of Israel.

However, since I recently did a paper on US External Policy on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I came across something cute that I wasn't aware of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity_in_Israel

Apparently Israelis weren't as good wealth creators out of the nothing as I thought. Likewise, when stuck in a situation where help was hindered and the land produced very little, they also suffered from a very frail economy with no investment, importing most of what it consumed and exporting very little, and financing its expenses on credit. They weren't spontaneously successful just by having created the State. Obviously once they started getting more and more aid, they had financial margin to do projects that otherwise wouldn't be feasible.

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I daresay nearly nobody is instantaneously successful when creating something from next to nothing. If you look at the US you can see they developed much of their initial infrastructure from the help and money of the British and as a young nation borrowed ridiculously high amounts from European nations. Not to mention the barren waste that much of Israel is.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

1. And they then promptly were forced to fight a war for their fledgling nation. Also simply being given land does not equate to having a functioning nation.

2. I am well aware of the extensive logistical support of the US and how many US made weapons of war the Israelis use. I am also well aware of the extensive production of weapons the Israelis produce themselves. This coupled along with the fact that their neighbors were also heavily supplied by national governments (Egypt had Soviet trainers and extensive gifts of equipment) is good to point out.

3. Then I can't be bothered to point out where you are incorrect.

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1- They only fought a war because they were given the damn land without caring for the original residents, which then manage to grow a mutually beneficial xenophobia.

It's like getting someone to own 1/3 of your house just because the government said so. I'd be ******* pissed at both of them.

2- Yeah, so? It's not programming language here. The extent of help is much more vast for the Israelis than the palestinians.

Just to point out. Their intelligence agency is one similar to the KGB, except... More liked. And whenever you question them, you die.

3- I am not bothered to point out the point when you could have said "whence".

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

I daresay nearly nobody is instantaneously successful when creating something from next to nothing. If you look at the US you can see they developed much of their initial infrastructure from the help and money of the British and as a young nation borrowed ridiculously high amounts from European nations. Not to mention the barren waste that much of Israel is.

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I daresay that either. But, funnily, both the US and Israel are hated by a vast number of people. Especially their policies (which I am inclined for as much as I would be inclined for a 24h prostate exam without anesthesia).

Also, nice insult to the land of Israel, pretty funny how you insult what you are defending.

I have mixed feelings towards the Israeli country/nation. However I certainly do not applaude the process of how they came to be, or the process of how they keep being.

~Jirisys ()

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Israel created its oasis of a modern Western Democracy out of the hard work and strong wills of its residents.

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There was also terrorism involved, no? So by that standard Palestine is on a great way to creating it's own oasis of a middle eastern success story, they even developed their own rockets!

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

They created there nation despite the racism and bigotry that surrounds them.

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Yes, but they aldo created it with their own racism and bigotry, what gave them the edge were mostly things they imported from outside.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Also Husar Israel is vastly superior to other Middle East nations im not sure how much contention that fac tis under.

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Superior in what way? As Tellos already said, if you take Palestine or Syria as a standard then a lot of countries are huge success stories.
I'd be less afraid to walk in the streets of Dubai than in the streets of Jerusalem, so does that make the UAE an even bigger success story?

We absolutely can compare them as it is the same region. Bit of the point, Israel has top universities, a booming economy and the highest living standard in the region, higher than the filthy rich oil states

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Originally Posted by Fragony

We absolutely can compare them as it is the same region. Bit of the point, Israel has top universities, a booming economy and the highest living standard in the region, higher than the filthy rich oil states

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Yes, but... Why do you care anyways? Want to live in it? Or just smearing your percieved superiority of them over other "lowly, barbarian, muslamic, xenophobic" countries.

You know. People don't hate success itself. Heck, I'm happy they managed to get their humanity back after the holocaust (same can be said about the Armenians, a thing that even Hitler said it's a shame they are never remembered).

People hate injustice. And believe me, I find it similar to gun down soviets on the Berlin Wall, and to gun down muslims in the Gaza Strip.

Also, do you really think having elections every period of time gives power to the people? I pity the fool.

~Jirisys ()

Hate Israel? No, not at all.

I do, however, hate war and social injustice.

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Originally Posted by jirisys

Yes, but... Why do you care anyways? Want to live in it? Or just smearing your percieved superiority of them

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No, but I think it's superiority is the reason it is dispised and that it's flaws are just an excuse, gutmensch isn't interested when Egypt uses gas to clean the tunnels, if Israel would do likewise gutmensch would be hysterically shrieking for sanctions. Gutmensch knows for a fact that all cultures are equal and will claw out your eyes if you have doubts, Israel can't exist in his worldview because he would be wrong

Egypt is (was?) of course a dictatorship, what kind of expectations do you have for a dictatorship? Given that Israel is a democracy, the moral expectations for them are higher, as they obviously should be.

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Originally Posted by Viking

Egypt is (was?) of course a dictatorship, what kind of expectations do you have for a dictatorship? Given that Israel is a democracy, the moral expectations for them are higher, as they obviously should be.

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Just an example because it are Palestinians that are being gassed. Turkey is also a somewhat democracy, but gutmensch is not interested when Turkey decides to kill a kurd or two in Iraq without asking for a UN resolution. See the right has no ideals we need no comfirmation, but idealists do as ideals have to be constantly tested, and sometimes reality is a bit inconvenient. Gutmensch probably knows that no matter how much money is thrown at the Palestinians nothing will ever change, hating Israel for it is Stockholm-syndrome by proxy. At least that's what I think it is, a defence-mechanism of the leftist logic

Turkey is a NATO member, have you forgotten? (left's vs. right's attitudes when it comes to NATO) Turkey's democracy has been a fragile one, for one. Of course, Turkey is also facing armed insurrection; which is not to say that they'll be excused for everything they do, but something that makes the situation harder. I do not know which Kurds you refer to, but I may only assume that they were armed.

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Originally Posted by Viking

Turkey is a NATO member, have you forgotten? (left's vs. right's attitudes when it comes to NATO) Turkey's democracy has been a fragile one, for one. Of course, Turkey is also facing armed insurrection; which is not to say that they'll be excused for everything they do, but something that makes the situation harder. I do not know which Kurds you refer to, but I may only assume that they were armed.

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Matters not, there are no ships with outraged lefties going to Turkey. Only to Israel, which is ironically the most progressive area of the world, even a gay parade

And because they are supposed to be 'progressive', they are kept under extra scrutiny. It is not like that you can trade gay parades for atrocities.

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Originally Posted by Viking

And because they are progressive, they are kept under extra scrutiny. It is not like that you can trade gay parades for atrocities.

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No but atrocities happen everywhere and gays-parades don't, in the non-Israeli parts of the middle-east (which is a lot of middle-east) it would be impossible, hysterical crowds shouting 'allah akhbar' would attack, happens over teddybears no

And most of these states being dictatorships your point is...? Would you like to compare your home country to North Korea whenever it comes under criticism? You will find that atrocities are condemned all over the region, but atrocities is expected from many of them given their nature - they need more than harsh words.

The left doesn't give a crap about kurds? Funny, considering that Norway's Socialist Left Party is pushing for Halabja to be classed as genocide today.


FragRants(tm): disregarding facts since 2003!

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

FragRants(tm): disregarding facts since 2003!

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You sir, are great.

~Jirisys ()

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hysterical crowds shouting 'allah akhbar' would attack, happens over teddybears no

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That didn't even happen in the Arab world. Unless Sudan is suddenly a part of the Arab world. Which y'know, is kinda, odd. Sudan is troubled by more than just unemployment and poor economic conditions.

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but atrocities happen everywhere and gays-parades don't

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Okay, so how about assassination (commonly referred to as "targeted killing"), which is something that Israeli death squads have been known to do. And I find it hard to believe that the average Likud member is more friendly twoards homosexuality than an Iranian ayatollah. Regardless, I don't think either can be used to assess the exact civility of a state and its residents. I have pointed out earlier that the general population of the Arab world are so disconnected from their leaders and have so little political power that they are more easily drawn towards extremes. If you ask me, it's only thanks to such media as Twitter and Facebook that the Arab world is not teeming with unhappy, frustrated extremists. They're just unhappy and frustrated, but they're no extremists.

The Pechter Middle East Polls bureau took an assessment of the political opinions of the Egyptian people right after the fall of the Mubarak regime. [url=http://pechterpolls.com/?p=919The results[/url]? Hardly any enmity towards the US or Israel, little support for the Muslim Brotherhood and the lack of jobs and economic malaise were found to be the main cause as to why the Revolution kicked off in the first place. Go ahead and see for yourself.

There is no clear cut way to define civility. As far as I'm concerned, the whole Israel-Arab conflict should not be touched with a six-foot long pole, let alone by rash journalists working for some right-wing tabloid somewhere in the US or an Islamist propaganda machine operating in Malaysia. Both sides should be observed with the utmost suspicion. Why do we call an Israeli assassination a "targeted killing", while a Palestinian suicide bombing is "murder"? I am not trying to invoke sympathy for a group of lunatics here, but we should be fair. When the media frames the Arabs in such a way that the only view that the (non-)educated western population gets is that they are either religious extremists or suicide bombers, no wonder there's no support for the Libyan rebels or the Arab spring. The most idiotic thing I must have heard so far is when this right-wing political commentator was talking about "the Libyan ayatollah", ignoring the fact that the very concept of an ayatollah is Shi'ite in nature. How many Shi'ites live in Libya? Not that many. What an idiots.

Fragony, the Arab world is just as diverse as Europe. It would be unfair to judge the working ethics of the Dutch based on Greek financial mismanagement. Same goes for the Arab world.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

The left doesn't give a crap about kurds? Funny, considering that Norway's Socialist Left Party is pushing for Halabja to be classed as genocide today.


FragRants(tm): disregarding facts since 2003!

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Having a kurdish voters since. It's just an example

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Having a kurdish voters since.

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Grammar senselesness.

~Jirisys ()

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Originally Posted by jirisys

Grammar senselesness.

~Jirisys ()

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Tom Cruise seeks Rain Man, know any

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Tom Cruise seeks Rain Man, do you know any?

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Corrected.

~Jirisys ()

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Originally Posted by jirisys

Corrected.

~Jirisys ()

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thx

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Originally Posted by Hax

That didn't even happen in the Arab world. Unless Sudan is suddenly a part of the Arab world. Which y'know, is kinda, odd.

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¿Sudán no es árabe?


Que cojones. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

omgwtqueWUT?!

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¿Sudán no es árabe?


Que cojones.

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Hey, did you see the referendum?

It's not as clear cut a part of the Arab world as Egypt or Lebanon, is what I was aiming at.

EDIT: My point remains valid. Heaping in Sudan with the rest of the Arab world when discussing such a broad subject (in this case, the comparative civility of Israel and its Arab neighbours) is somewhat far-fetched.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Hey, did you see the referendum?

It's not as clear cut a part of the Arab world as Egypt or Lebanon, is what I was aiming at.

EDIT: My point remains valid. Heaping in Sudan with the rest of the Arab world when discussing such a broad subject (in this case, the comparative civility of Israel and its Arab neighbours) is somewhat far-fetched.

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Maybe he means the Janjaweed. But this thread isn't about arabland, that is very diverse as you say, it's about the gutmensch fixation on Israel and what triggers it. Again, I think reality proves them that cultures aren't equal, and that is why they grab a magnifying-glass to enhance every imperfection of Israel. They need it to be wicked to protect their ideoligy.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Having a kurdish voters since. It's just an example

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Amnesty has operations in every dictatorship in the world. They whine about each and every one of them constantly.

Amnesty is made up predominantly of leftists, or what you call "gutmensch". That you don't pay any attention to what the left says doesn't mean we keep silent, frags.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Amnesty has operations in every dictatorship in the world. They whine about each and every one of them constantly.

Amnesty is made up predominantly of leftists, or what you call "gutmensch". That you don't pay any attention to what the left says doesn't mean we keep silent, frags.

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Not interested in NGO's I'm interested in what makes Israel so special to gutmensch. If you don't mind me saying your doomsday argument of the Norwegian supporting Kurds, que? Should that change anything? Nothing is ever 100%, 99% remains a lot

Tiny addition (not at you), if you hold Israel more accountable for flaws because it's a democratic state, isn't that in itself acknowledging it's superiority

The better the country should be the more bitter we get about its actions.

Higher expectations are granted on those we expect more of. Applies to parents, politicians, friends and nations. It's not racist, or anti-religious or hatred, its just human.

USA gets a lot of bad press, what isn't generally acknowledged is these are generally minor points off a large stockpile (goodwill not nukes). Generally though a democracy is compared with the pool of other democracies. As such Israel, is not the number one example of what people expect.

Methinks it is the French speaking democracy that is one of the best.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Canada.

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Originally Posted by jirisys

Grammar senselessness.

~Jirisys ()

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Corrected.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Corrected.

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Too funny but I won't blame it on his culture, why not dance the flamingo instead, 1, 2 , gah gah gah

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Not interested in NGO's I'm interested in what makes Israel so special to gutmensch. If you don't mind me saying your doomsday argument of the Norwegian supporting Kurds, que? Should that change anything? Nothing is ever 100%, 99% remains a lot

Tiny addition (not at you), if you hold Israel more accountable for flaws because it's a democratic state, isn't that in itself acknowledging it's superiority

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Not interested in NGO's? Then you will have to explain what "gutmensch" are, because most leftists, and every high-profile one, are involved in organizations like amnesty. Including myself(red cross).

Also, Israel, a democratic state, being superior to the dictatorships around it is a blinding flash of the obvious. Who has ever made the argument that Israeli civil society is worse than (as an example) Syrian civil society?

We hold Israel to the standards expected of a democracy, ie. what I expect of my own government. There is not one thing Israel has been critized for that I would not have critized my own government for doing. That's the theory, but in practice Israel is held to a lower standard and gets much less criticism than any of the other democratic states get.

Also Frags, the main focus area of the european left, especially the revolutionary left, hasn't been Palestine since the kibbutz movement dissipated. Since the 50/60's, the main focus has been latin america. That's where the main international focus of the left is. The Israel conflict is mainly a christian thing.

Cuba, Chile and Colombia; not Israel, Syria and Egypt.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Also Frags, the main focus area of the european left, especially the revolutionary left, hasn't been Palestine since the kibbutz movement dissipated. Since the 50/60's, the main focus has been latin america. That's where the main international focus of the left is. The Israel conflict is mainly a christian thing.

Cuba, Chile and Colombia; not Israel, Syria and Egypt.

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If you say so

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Also Frags, the main focus area of the european left, especially the revolutionary left, hasn't been Palestine since the kibbutz movement dissipated. Since the 50/60's, the main focus has been latin america. That's where the main international focus of the left is. The Israel conflict is mainly a christian thing.

Cuba, Chile and Colombia; not Israel, Syria and Egypt.

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Nt in America. Those are all side show. It all about africa and the middleast here.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Nt in America. Those are all side show. It all about africa and the middleast here.

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I take it you mean the left in the democratic party.

As that's a conservative in European terms, it's not what this thread is about, and actually proves my point...

If you ignore the displacement and theft of Palestinian land. The absence of democratic rights or even citizenship rights for Palestinians. The massive financial and technical aid given by the US and the theft of water from occupied areas, then yes, Israel is a massive success.

I recall during apartheid people used to say that South Africa was a rich and successful state.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Talking about gutmensch not the muslims. Never understood the collective outrage of the European left about Israel while they are united in silence when things far more horrible happen in non-Israeli parts of the world, it's taken for granted it doesn't interest them. There has got to be a reason for that. Read an interesting article that boldly tries to understand leftist logic.

Fact, Israel is by far the most succesful country in the region. It's heaps above all others technologically, financially, intellectually, everything-actually. And no matter how much they try to financially help the Palestinians it's of no use.

Is it a existional problem that cultures just aren't equal even when given the same chances. Gutmensch wouldn't be 100% right and there's something deeply wrong about that?

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This is one of the oddest arguments I've ever read from you. It's like saying that people hated South Africa during in the Apartheid era because it of its success. [edit - Idaho beat me to it :sad:]

Its success is completely irrelevant, except in the sense that we can and should expect "succesful" countries to act according to their (self)proclaimed superiority. As for "And no matter how much they try to financially help the Palestinians it's of no use", I haven't got the slightest idea what you're talking about. Fact is, despite what politicians say or have said, that Israel has consistently undermined Palestinian efforts to create a stable economy and a state.

And not all people who are critical of Israel or pro-Palestinian are leftists. Dries van Agt is a notable example, and I wouldn't consider myself a leftist either.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

If you ignore the displacement and theft of Palestinian land. The absence of democratic rights or even citizenship rights for Palestinians. The massive financial and technical aid given by the US and the theft of water from occupied areas, then yes, Israel is a massive success.

I recall during apartheid people used to say that South Africa was a rich and successful state.

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So what don't start wars, if you do and keep persisting there is at the very least no reason whatsoever to keep them alive. I know who wouldn't when things were any different, good for them it isn't like that

Frags, if you can truly find me a guttmensch who is fine with Turkey's treatment of the Kurds and yet anti Israel, I'd be the first to call them a hypocrite.

As the last poster said, its about how a country uses its superiority that makes it "good" or "bad".

if you only think that might is right then you really are well on your way to [godwin]

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Too funny; but I won't blame it on his culture, why not dance the flamenco instead? 1, 2 , gah gah gah.

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Corrected.

And I'm not spanish. I'm salvadorean. Meaning you do not know a single thing about my culture.

I'm also Chilean. So riddle me that.

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If you ignore the displacement and theft of Palestinian land. The absence of democratic rights or even citizenship rights for Palestinians. The massive financial and technical aid given by the US and the theft of water from occupied areas, then yes, Israel is a massive success.

I recall during apartheid people used to say that South Africa was a rich and successful state.

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:bow:

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So what don't start wars, if you do and keep persisting there is at the very least no reason whatsoever to keep them alive. I know who wouldn't when things were any different, good for them it isn't like that

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?... That made almost no sense.

Why not start a war? Most countries now are afraid of wars. They only war against those oponents who invade or those who will succumb eventually to it's forces.

The only major country at war today is the US with Lybia (aided by the NATO) and Afgha-Iraqistan. You do not obviously war against someone when MAD is assured.

That's why economical wars are in place today.

One's culture is defined by conflict. Many nations find themselves in it; or find themselves lacking.

~Jirsys ()

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Originally Posted by Fragony

So what don't start wars, if you do and keep persisting there is at the very least no reason whatsoever to keep them alive. I know who wouldn't when things were any different, good for them it isn't like that

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Not sure what your cryptic second sentence is refering to but lets get this straight, there was significant Israeli terrorism under the British Mandate, seeking to hasten the creation of a Jewish country.

You say "they" (i guess the palestinians and Arabs?) shouldn't have started and shouldn't continue the conflict. Tell me who actually started the conflict in the first place?

My understanding is that it was neither Israelis or Palestinians but rather the west that "started" this conflict. How? By plonked the Jews down in Palestine (yes there were already some jews there, but they lived IN Palestine) and carving out a new country in the middle and on the top of another.

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Originally Posted by jirisys

Corrected.

And I'm not spanish. I'm salvadorean. Meaning you do not know a single thing about my culture.

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Neither should you expect him to, you don't even worship the holy Tulip! What an ignorant culture it is you have.

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Originally Posted by jirisys

Corrected.

And I'm not spanish. I'm salvadorean. Meaning you do not know a single thing about my culture.

~Jirsys ()

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Don't we all, where can I buy one of these bamboo-flutes at least it would be something to remember you by

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I take it you mean the left in the democratic party.

As that's a conservative in European terms, it's not what this thread is about, and actually proves my point...

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Believe it or not conservatives support charity as well.

Edit: Bamboo is not native to el savador.

Al Roumi raised an important issue further up; who started the conflict? I'd say it was neither the palestinians or the jews, but rather european intolerance which started this; without that, the jews would've been an integrated part of european society, and would have no need for a safe haven.

Israel was established to protect the jews from european hostility, not muslim hostility.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Believe it or not conservatives support charity as well.

Edit: Bamboo is not native to el savador.

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Uhm, what? Charity? What are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Uhm, what? Charity? What are you talking about?

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I think he's refering to the largesse of US military aid... Either that or maybe the charities giving cash to drug addicts if they agree to be sterilised.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Don't we all, where can I buy one of these bamboo-flutes at least it would be something to remember you by

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Those are from Peru. Believe it or not, I know more about your culture than you of any latin american one. I lived in belgium anyways, went to holland too. France. Luxembourg, etc.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Believe it or not conservatives support charity as well.

Edit: Bamboo is not native to el savador.

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I remember seeing an US Aid propaganda from Cuba, the US sends thousands of soldiers and helps few people; and cuba sends a few professionals and helps a lot more.

You think he would not confuse the highly humid forest of China and Peru/Brazil with Central America. We do have them, but until recently; and it's not part of our culture.

Ostendens ignorantiam. Quare audio?

~Jirisys ()

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Al Roumi raised an important issue further up; who started the conflict? I'd say it was neither the palestinians or the jews, but rather european intolerance which started this; without that, the jews would've been an integrated part of european society, and would have no need for a safe haven.

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Colonialist incompetence is what caused it.

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So what don't start wars, if you do and keep persisting there is at the very least no reason whatsoever to keep them alive. I know who wouldn't when things were any different, good for them it isn't like that

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Fragony, do you even know what happened at Deir Yassin? I am critical of many of the "new" Palestinians (often Egyptian or Syrian natives) who claim to be Palestinians, but it is undeniable that 700,000 Palestinians were displaced in 1948. How the surrounding Arab nations treated those Palestinians and the conflict as a whole is a different matter, but you cannot deny, as one cannot deny the Armenian Genocide or the Holocaust, that there were nearly a million Palestinians living in the occupied territories.

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Originally Posted by jirisys

Those are from Peru. Believe it or not, I know more about your culture than you of any latin american one. I lived in belgium anyways, went to holland too. France. Luxembourgh

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Good for you, it's a concious choice to not know anything about your culture. I do it on purpose. Did you enjoy your stay?

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Originally Posted by al Roumi

Frags, if you can truly find me a guttmensch who is fine with Turkey's treatment of the Kurds and yet anti Israel, I'd be the first to call them a hypocrite

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I don't know if they are fine with it, all I know is that they aren't interested.

@Hax, nobody was ever displaced, they fled

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@Hax, nobody was ever displaced, they fled

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Would you stay in Amersfoort if whole of Zeist was murdered? Yes? No?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I don't know if they are fine with it, all I know is that they aren't interested.

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:rolleyes:

So you're saying that lefties make Israel/palestine a higher profile issue than any other government's abuse of Human rights?

Isn't it just that Israel/palestine is a high profile accross a range of issues? And not just for lefties?

I'd have thought most people who actually care about HR abuses would have a wider view than just Israel, the world is regrettably full of them.

If you're getting this idea of yours about your guttmensch from the media well then you're accusing the wrong group.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Would you stay in Amersfoort if whole of Zeist was murdered? Yes? No?

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Atrocities happen in wars we did no different in Indonesia. So don't start wars. These people are dead only because of idiots who wanted war when it wasn't necessary at all, and it was and is a completely unnecessary loss of life. The current situation only exists because the Arabs thought it was necessary , and some (well a lot) still do. Israel has never asked for this so I don't really care when they go a bit nuts

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Good for you, it's a concious choice to not know anything about your culture. I do it on purpose. Did you enjoy your stay?

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Willing ignorance you call that.

Badly viewed by people who do the thinking in the world.

Yes, I never got to meet you, so the days in holland were stupendous.

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Atrocities happen in wars we did no different in Indonesia. So don't start wars. These people are dead only because of idiots who wanted war when it wasn't necessary at all, and it was and is a completely unnecessary loss of life. The current situation only exists because the Arabs thought it was necessary , and some (well a lot) still do. Israel has never asked for this so I don't really care when they go a bit nuts

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Atrocities happen al the time. It's not like only in war people will be poor, tortured, kidnapped, raped, blackmailed, murdered, or not be given lollipops on doctor's office.

There are no wars going on. It's all conquest. The US doesn't go to war, it conquers lowly barbarian countries without the grace of that eternally perfect representative democracy. (if you can't see the sarcasm, shame to you).

War is never necessary. But it's a mean to get **** done; wether for good dees, or bad dees. (mostly, bad deeds).

You just described war there. Might I remind you that governments and leaders make wars, not people. Except here; curiously.

Yes, the arabs thought it was necesary to get their rightfully conquered land back. Since they were, by force; moved from their homes in order to make the jews a nice little hut. And not because of the jews, might I add. But because the allies deemed it necessary, and didn't care about the families of those people.

Israel asked for this the moment it was created and sought to get EVEN MORE land. Israel asked for this when they stopped immigration from palestinian states. Israel asked for this when they walled their borders. Israel asked for this when Mossad made it's dirty little job. Israel asked for this when they gunned down immigrants on the border. Israel asked for this when they started to hate muslims on a xenophobic level. Israel asked for this when they got their whole military equipment from the US, hated by all, loved by few. Israel asked for this when they refused to cooperate with palestine.

It doesn't matter if Palestine is the aggressor. Without the state of Israel; there wouldn't be such aggression. You cannot cast blame only at one section, because you believe that the other one made the "right thing".

The deaths of the libyan civil war is to blame as much as; both the people, and the tyrant.

One for fighting. And the other for provoking; and fighting back.

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so I don't really care when they go a bit nuts

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Ah. Then you have learned nothing.

It is not people, that should suffer; it's those that wish to acquire more; because they believe so. The people today have been fully braindwashed and forced to believe that palestinians or israelis are to be bombed. Most people don't want to be a part of it, they just want to live their lives. The rest; would not have wanted this, if they were not told to want this.

But when a spark comes, a fire ensues. No matter who it comes from. Both Israel and Palestine is to blame, not separately.

But since you don't care, why bother telling you at all?

For all this time we have argued, you have chosen to cover your eyes and see what you want. You will never learn anything like that. And you have not learned at all.

~Jirisys ()

What makes you so sure we didn't meet, I can't be the only Dutchman that knows nothing about your culture. I even think we who don't know anything about your culture outnumber those that for some reason do.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

What makes you so sure we didn't meet, I can't be the only Dutchman that knows nothing about your culture. I even think we who don't know anything about your culture outnumber those that for some reason do.

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The point of this is? The ignorance of the masses?

I, however, am one of the few who know about european culture. Yet you don't see me insulting vietnamese people with the lack of knowledge of their culture, do you?

To be stagnantly tring to insult one's culture whilst knowing nothing about it is as smart as trying to fly with a cape without knowing about gravity.

~Jirisys ()

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Originally Posted by jirisys

I remember seeing an US Aid propaganda from Cuba, the US sends thousands of soldiers and helps few people; and cuba sends a few professionals and helps a lot more.

You think he would not confuse the highly humid forest of China and Peru/Brazil with Central America. We do have them, but until recently; and it's not part of our culture.

Ostendens ignorantiam. Quare audio?

~Jirisys ()

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Que lastima

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Originally Posted by jirisys

The point of this is? The ignorance of the masses?

I, however, am one of the few who know about european culture. Yet you don't see me insulting vietnamese people with the lack of knowledge of their culture, do you?

To be stagnantly tring to insult one's culture whilst knowing nothing about it is as smart as trying to fly with a cape without knowing about gravity.

~Jirisys ()

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I just feel better when I deny it's very existance. Who are you to judge me

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Que lastima

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About me seeing it? About it existing or what? I was working on a sociology book; looking for images.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I just feel better when I deny it's very existance. Who are you to judge me

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A person who knows obviously more english, latin, greek, french, german, spanish, russian; who can spell better than you; who can reason better than you; who can change my posture whenever evidence for the new one is bigger than the last; who understands it's own limitations in both knowledge and abilities; I do not defend a country that commits such injustices; and more importantly, a person who does not accept ignorance as a virtue.

So we have absolutely no culture? Well whoop-dee-****ing-doo. Guess no more mayan calendars, no more corn, chocolate, sugar, tomatoes; no more cumbia, gold; no more aztecs, incas or mayans, no more independence, no more american colonialism, no more american-encouraged tyrants, no more banana nations, no more slaves for the VOC, no more Les Luthiers, no more anything.

Deny it. Shows how much your arguments are really that much cerebral and open-minded.

Who are YOU, that you cannot be judged? Don't care, show yourself as the european stereotype you are not.

~Jirisys ()

oh lolipop you sound pretty smart

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Oh! Lollipop; you seem pretty smart.

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It was a joke; but I tell you; that's one of the atrocities that most doctors in the world do to us.

I also use punctuation.

I cannot "sound" pretty smart, because it's a written medium.

Can you please stop derailing th thread from it's original purpose?

~Jirisys ()

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jirisys

It was a joke; but I tell you; that's one of the atrocities that most doctors in the world do to us.

I also use punctuation.

I cannot "sound" pretty smart, because it's a written medium.

Can you please stop derailing th thread from it's original purpose?

~Jirisys ()

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But we are just getting to know eachother, quite the revelation for me that you use punctuation. Who would have thought, amazing

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Originally Posted by jirisys

who can spell better than you;

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You seem relatively new around here, so please allow me to share some friendly advice. Mocking another member's grammar usage is not only considered bad form here in the Backroom, but it is also often very misguided. Some of our most interesting and insightful members, including Fragony, choose not to bother with proper grammar. As this is a gaming forum and not a classroom, there is no expectation of such. It is a matter of personal style, and has no bearing on the substance of their posts or their true writing abilities.

As you clearly demonstrated, we all make grammar mistakes and none of us are in a position to judge another's writing skills. Further, such comments are always personal and by their very nature have little relevance to the topic at hand.