Ambitious Rebels

I'm currently playing a Viking campaign and it's been quite an emotional experience. As the Welsh I've had the great king Cardoch I who united wales, built a great navy to protect his people from the Vikings and established a dynasty on the isle of Manau to assert his lordship over the seas. Manau had the most magnificent huts the British Isles had ever seen, his lands were rich and his swords strong. Then the land (and I) sighed as it witnessed the decline of his line into violent madmen, as all the while the Saxons gained power.
A dreadful war ensued that nearly wiped out the welsh. At it's climax, when I thought all was lost, there was a rebellion amongst all the titled men still left and the king lost his throne to his uncle. Despite being mad himself King Howell III defeated the infamously cowardly Saxon king in three great battles against the Saxon hoardes, until the golden haired daemon was cornered at the tip of Wales and finally slain in battle. Having no heirs the Saxons all turned into rebels and I could breath again.

Good times (minus the couple of thousand dead on my side alone)

Anyway there was me hoping to rebuild peacefully with the allies my new found influence has bought me, when a couple of turns later one of the huge Rebel stacks in Devon attacks Cornwall. Not all of it, the army split and sent a smallish force (still 400 men) to attack my sole surviving faction heir no less (he repelled them, just).
I didn't know rebels could be so proactive.
Has anyone seen this behaviour before? Do rebels ever attack the AI, or even each other?

(sorry about the long post but I couldn't resist a little narrative)

I haven't been playing long but, yes, I have seen this a few times. Usually I was already at war with the rebels, though.

I never had, then again rebels don't tend to last long in most games I play. This lot are as powerful as the smaller nations though. Just saw a rebel group called "the Strythclaids" (or something) attack and take a province near them from the vikings. The army in this new province kept the name " the Strythclaids". I'm looking forward to dealing with a rebel kingdom. Shame you can't have proper diplomacy with them though. Next question of course is, is it possible for a province to rebel against rebels?

In all my years of playing (it is about 10) I have had rebels attacking me only once which gave me quite a shock. I had been brought to think that rebels are timid guys who never attack and try to leave the province when attacked by a superior force if they have another adjacent province belonging to them. But this attack taught me to keep an eye on them.

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I had been brought to think that rebels are timid guys who never attack

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Exactly. I'm still not sure that they build or reinforce their own troops, but on recent evidence I must assume that they do. Maybe it's limited funds that generally stops them. Perhaps we should found a Rebel Rights Movement, so that we can put an end to the destruction of these deep, complex societies

Hi

I have definitely seen rebels attack into adjacent non-rebel provinces. Never seen a seaborne rebel invasion, though.

I'm under the impression that the game treats all rebels as a single faction. So I do not think rebels will attack rebels in the normal run of the game. I'm qualifying that statement 'cos of what can happen when a faction reappearance takes place and rebels 'convert' to faction troops and then turn on their erstwhile comrades.

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

I don't believe (but have no way of confirming or disproving) that they are treated as one entity. Why? If you look closely, rebels are marked differently on the map. Sometimes several provinces are marked the same but others will be marked differently.

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Originally Posted by Dellathane

Next question of course is, is it possible for a province to rebel against rebels?

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If that was to happen, I'd guess the most likely reason would be religious. Imagine a small Christian force, whose king has just died without heirs, in an Islamic province.

Alternatively, perhaps someone could check what happens when a large number of Spies infiltrate rebel territory.

Thinking about it wouldn't be possible. Rebel Provinces always have 100% loyalty don't they. The designers must have had problems with rebels rebelling against themselves.

On a different note, one way to prove whether all rebels are made equal is if you have two different rebel groups in adjacent provinces, and one is attacked and elects to retreat. If the army can retreat into the other rebel group's province, is that a proof (to 5 sigma or more, obviously) that the rebels are all the same? If they are I'm very glad the designers still went to the trouble of giving them distinct names, even if it means nothing.

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Originally Posted by Plato

Alternatively, perhaps someone could check what happens when a large number of Spies infiltrate rebel territory.

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Hi

In the later version of MTW only one spy counts towards reducing loyalty.

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

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Originally Posted by LordK9

I don't believe (but have no way of confirming or disproving) that they are treated as one entity. Why? If you look closely, rebels are marked differently on the map. Sometimes several provinces are marked the same but others will be marked differently.

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Hi

I'm pretty certain that if you attack a rebel province you will find that you are 'at war' with all rebel provinces which will be demonstrated by the fact that no rebel factions/provinces will trade with you.

Also, .conan. allows you to take control of all rebels.

[https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...val-Total-War]

I suspect that making all rebels a single faction is a mechanism aimed at simplifying their control by the AI. But that's pure speculation on my part.

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

You know, thinking about it, I have seen rebels rebel against rebels of sorts. A power is eliminated resulting in a new master. There is a revolt producing rebels. An old faction reappears there. OK, not truly a rebel as they have a major nation insignia but they are still rebelling against the new masters - the rebels.

Since I am rather new at this, I've never seen it happen: if the rebels win a civil war, what happens? Do they simply become the major power?

Hi

I think this article shows that the rebels are effectively one faction:

https://forums.totalwar.org/wiki/index.php/MTW_Rebels

Best regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

The rebels are all one faction (and you can play them with the .conan. command Victor mentioned). You can have good fun playing them, you tend to run out of money quickly, but you don't have to worry about happiness and new troops pop up in interesting locations. :yes:

The rebel faction is always the first one specified in the startpos file. The rebel names seen on the map are customized for each province.

Hi @Dellathane again,

the point is, as far my experience goes, that if you eliminate a dynasty(?), the rest becoming rebel, they TEND to attack you, still being the men you fought when killing their royal line. If you still had some troops in regions turning rebel after killing the last heir/king, you´re at war with all rebels on the map as well (if you weren´t already). Nice chance to bribe a few good units ;-)) and take over the regions formerly owned by your enemies.....

greetings daigaku

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Originally Posted by LordK9

I don't believe (but have no way of confirming or disproving) that they are treated as one entity. Why? If you look closely, rebels are marked differently on the map. Sometimes several provinces are marked the same but others will be marked differently.

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There is a simple proof. When you attack the rebels first, you are asked if you are sure you want to attack this province belonging to rebels. Before attacking every next rebel province this question does not pop up, so you may assume you are at war with all/any rebels. The only exception is when you get an auto cease-fire with rebels (for the conditions of it see elsewhere). Then any new invasion of the rebel province is preceded by the above-mentioned message.

OK, now you bring something else to mind: what controls auto ceasefires? Several times I've been at war with another kingdom only to find a while later that we are at peace. No notice; it just happens.

As for the topic subject, I based my belief on flimsy evidence. I'm now convinced that my assumption was wrong. I did notice all the things mentioned but it didn't click in my head.

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Originally Posted by LordK9

OK, now you bring something else to mind: what controls auto ceasefires? Several times I've been at war with another kingdom only to find a while later that we are at peace. No notice; it just happens.

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The conditions are: you are not to have any contacts with the faction in question - no agents on its territory, no common borders, no ships at its shores. Plainly speaking, you are not to see any of the faction on the map. Then in some short time (two or three turns - I'm not sure how long it takes) you will not see this faction's shield on the panel where your allies and enemies are sported.

Ah, makes sense. The Sicilians attacked and won Naples and it took me some time to get my navy built up enough to chain them for an invasion. The Italians attacked a fleet and it took me some time to get my war fleet there (Corsica/Sardinia). In VI, it happened a lot with the Vikings.

in viking mod it happens more then "normal mt" or "xl mod".
they attack if u are in war with rebels, and if they outnumbered.(so sure to win)

Welcome to the Org, ferdi! ~:wave:

Some remarks...

Rebels are in effect one faction. The various names and colours are basically cosmetics and little else that creates the illusion that there are several and separate rebel factions. I don't know for sure, but I doubt that there are any rebels elsewhere more ambitious and feisty then ones we can find in Redux. The RX-rebels also prove several points discussed here and in many ways outlines what indeed is possible within the MTW-engine and that framework. In Redux (RXB1003)...

• Rebels do Seaborne invasions (then the AI draws troops from wherever available, multiple provinces)
• Rebels do regularly build troops, and can have serious armies
• Rebels do frequently attack the Player (when at war)
• Rebels do frequently attack other AI-factions (when at war)
• Rebels do frequently build buildings (cannot build forts or farmlands)
• Rebels rarely ever run out of cash/florins.
• Rebels frequently build ships (and plenty of them if unchecked).
• Rebels operate and work as 1 faction in effect.
• Rebels can very well be a very real and serious factor in the game somehow (usually are).
• Rebels are able to kill factions and regularly do so - this may include the player-faction as well.

This is the reality found in Redux. Evidently, that reality is very different from the one we get in raw MTW, while many things are hardcoded about rebels in the engine it also clearly shows that several things are indeed possible to be very, very different from the usual passive experience found in raw MTW (or stuff heavily dependent on the CA standard designs).

Yes, in raw MTW rebels are basically some timid unserious rabble as already suggested, agreed. One might say that they in raw MTW more or less works as some passive place-holder for a region while a "regular faction" (slowly) get ready to take control over that province - generally speaking. It is hardly an active force in raw MTW like it is in Redux (and possibly, in some other mod I don't know about). The point is, it does not have too be that way, but then we must also then be prepared to abandon raw MTW or any close clones as there is no other way to escape that very circumstance. The culprit here are the CA standard-designs in MTW and it is those that has too be (extensively) changed if we really do want more dangerous and active (functional) rebels. As long as we stick with raw MTW, then we will also get that timid rabble it provides as rebels, as simple as that. There is no way around it. Either we will acknowledge or deny that fact.

I for one acknowledge it.

- A

Is it conceivable to mod the rebels as independent factions rather then as one big blob, ie, in affect, making them the same as any other AI faction? To my way of thinking, that'd be way cool.

You could create different "rebels", essential unplayable factions. The problem is the faction limit (32 max, including the faction 0 rebels which would still exist), so you couldn't make many of them. And if they were small, they would quickly be gobbled up and you would be stuck with the standard rebel faction by mid-game (but maybe with some reemergences). Quite a few mods replaced some starting rebels with new factions, but they need to be balanced so they have a chance for survival.

Yeah, I suppose they'd be just another Denmark; just sitting there. Still, that's already what they do except from what I read above about the Redux mod. Thinking about it, it already happens with the Burgundians.

There are a couple of quick mods you can make to increase the activity of the tiny factions. Of the top of my head, you can change the AI behavior, and you can make the bodyguard units unbuildable but with no upkeep. One of the problems with the Danes is that they quickly end up with 6 Royal Knight units, and if they don't expand quickly they will run out of money and just stagnate.

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Originally Posted by Axalon

Yes, in raw MTW rebels are basically some timid unserious rabble as already suggested, agreed. One might say that they in raw MTW more or less works as some passive place-holder for a region while a "regular faction" (slowly) get ready to take control over that province - generally speaking. It is hardly an active force in raw MTW.

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Logically, they should be the way they are in raw MTW. Rebels are supposed to be a band of anarchists who rather destroy and plunder than build, train and have a kind of a state which they seem to do in Redux. At least, it is what I picture when I hear the word "rebels".

Bah! That's just feudal / monarchist propaganda.

Tribal societies were doing just fine during the Dark Ages, with trade and their own culture. They didn't want to work as slaves for someone else's benefit (serfdom); nor did the village-clan-tribe system system reach a pinnacle in just one man (kingdom).

These freedom-loving people weren't warmongers, they just wanted to avoid being subjucated. Unfortunately, they were trampled by royalty and the lick-spittle chroniclers that accompanied them. :whip:

Just because they didn't feel the need to demonstrate their martial prowess, raise vanity structures or invent taxation, there's no reason to denigrate them.

Oh, and aristocrats do more plundering than any "rebels". :laugh4:

So that's why rebels are so passive! The attack orders never can get ratified by the 2/3rds majority vote in the bi-weekly meeting. :idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvKIWjnEPNY

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Originally Posted by Plato

Bah! That's just feudal / monarchist propaganda.

Tribal societies were doing just fine during the Dark Ages, with trade and their own culture. They didn't want to work as slaves for someone else's benefit (serfdom); nor did the village-clan-tribe system system reach a pinnacle in just one man (kingdom).

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As soon as they get a leader who will determine their united policy and goad them to a battle they may be equated to a faction (MTW-wise, not in the real world).

Yet more evidence as to why the Rebel Rights Movement is such a noble cause!

Even in the real world, Attila and others fit the bill.

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Originally Posted by Plato

Oh, and aristocrats do more plundering than any "rebels". :laugh4:

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Well, isn't that how they became aristocrats in the first place? Be a bigger thief than your neighbors or be descended from one. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Logically, they should be the way they are in raw MTW. Rebels are supposed to be a band of anarchists who rather destroy and plunder than build, train and have a kind of a state which they seem to do in Redux. At least, it is what I picture when I hear the word "rebels".

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I think you are stretching things pretty thin here, as to somehow "warrant" the default (raw MTW) circumstances on rebels. At any rate, if you (or anybody) want the static, timid and passive rebels in your game - that is your privilege and headache.

Personally, I want and expect more then that out of rebels, a lot more, and so I have radically changed things and designs to make it happen. In general that will (if done successfully) deliver more organic, active and dramatic campaign which in turn will (conventionally speaking) generate a more exciting and interesting experience on this stuff - and I prefer that instead. My result on that is Redux, which may very well still present the best hunting grounds for various rebel activity - so far. It proves that higher levels of challenge and activity is very possible to achieve with the rebels, if that is what people truly want. I want it, and now I can get it...

For the likes of you, who don't (seem to) want higher levels of challenge and activity - raw MTW is a good place to go, no arguments there. For the likes of me - who do want more challenge and activity out of rebels - raw MTW is a poor place to go, due to its designs, traits and performance. As a result, people such as myself will therefore always be better off in the realm of modification and alterations, because it is there, like it or not, where increased challenge and activity levels - beyond what raw MTW can deliver - are to be found somehow. Ergo, people are not stuck with the default experience on rebels, they have a choice on this, as there are both existing and possible alternatives to it.

- A

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Originally Posted by Axalon

I think you are stretching things pretty thin here, as to somehow "warrant" the default (raw MTW) circumstances on rebels. At any rate, if you (or anybody) want the static, timid and passive rebels in your game - that is your privilege and headache.

Personally, I want and expect more then that out of rebels, a lot more, and so I have radically changed things and designs to make it happen. In general that will (if done successfully) deliver more organic, active and dramatic campaign which in turn will (conventionally speaking) generate a more exciting and interesting experience on this stuff - and I prefer that instead. My result on that is Redux, which may very well still present the best hunting grounds for various rebel activity - so far. It proves that higher levels of challenge and activity is very possible to achieve with the rebels, if that is what people truly want. I want it, and now I can get it...

For the likes of you, who don't (seem to) want higher levels of challenge and activity - raw MTW is a good place to go, no arguments there. For the likes of me - who do want more challenge and activity out of rebels - raw MTW is a poor place to go, due to its designs, traits and performance. As a result, people such as myself will therefore always be better off in the realm of modification and alterations, because it is there, like it or not, where increased challenge and activity levels - beyond what raw MTW can deliver - are to be found somehow. Ergo, people are not stuck with the default experience on rebels, they have a choice on this, as there are both existing and possible alternatives to it.

- A

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What I look for in this game is not only a challenge (however minute it may seem to you), but also (and may be primarily) an essential proportion of logics and historic accuracy. If modding takes these away giving the rebels, say, Darth Vader as a general to make them more aggressive and invincible, consequently challenging, it does not make the game better, in my opinion.

"Difficult rebels" are easy enough to produce - just give them specific uber units, lower upkeep and training costs and rebel faction specific cathedral income buildings...

While this arguably makes it more challenging for the player, it also makes it next to impossible for the AI - which is as dumb as a brick (especially on the campaign map) and will be quickly overrun. The Rebels have a notable advantage over the other factions - no rebellions or provincial loyalty problems. This means that the rebels' tax rates are fixed at "very high" and they don't suffer from it (except in the case of faction reappearances).

The better approach is to just create a rebel specific cathedral income building (these are auto-razed when factions invade) and leave units and their stats balanced. This gives the rebel faction what they need more than anything else - funding (but not too much funding).

The problem with any theoretical rebel faction specific buildings, is that the rebels won't develop their provinces in line with what the major factions are doing - so provinces will be very underdeveloped and the rebel specific buildings will be razed on the loss of the province.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

What I look for in this game is not only a challenge (however minute it may seem to you), but also (and may be primarily) an essential proportion of logics and historic accuracy. If modding takes these away giving the rebels, say, Darth Vader as a general to make them more aggressive and invincible, consequently challenging, it does not make the game better, in my opinion.

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My thoughts exactly. Plenty of sci-fi games out there where anything goes.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

What I look for in this game is not only a challenge (however minute it may seem to you), but also (and may be primarily) an essential proportion of logics and historic accuracy. If modding takes these away giving the rebels, say, Darth Vader as a general to make them more aggressive and invincible, consequently challenging, it does not make the game better, in my opinion.

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Right.... Well, if you want to believe that I and others resort to - or need - Darth Vader, the logic of the Marvel universe and Mickey mouse to get more activity and kick out of the rebels - then have it your way.... Making rebels harder somehow is easy (as is the entire game), making them function properly is a different story (as is also true for the entire game). Anyhow, I can obviously do little for you anyways. Have fun with raw MTW rebels...

I have already basically said what I wanted to say here, people have a choice on rebels, they are not stuck with the default rebels, there are alternatives on this for the people so inclined (Medmod and Redux are for instance existing alternatives, and it is possible create some on your own).

- A

There is definitely some merit in tougher rebels, "raw MTW rebels" are tame, but you need to accept that people want to play the game their way or the vanilla way. There are also plenty of players who will enjoy the "redux way" (and why not?). Everyone has their own opinions on how the game works and everyone plays the game for their own reasons. Even myself and gollum, who shared many opinions on the game, were polar opposites when it came to certain aspects. for example I wanted to remove all ships from the Pocket mod, gollum was not at all convinced. in hindsight I have to somewhat grudgingly admit that he was correct...

I think I've been rather unfair and confrontational with you Axalon and for that I apologise. I honestly think now is the time to move on, accept each others differences for what they are and just get on with being part of what is left of the MTW (and STW) community.

Merry Christmas one and all.
:bow:

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Originally Posted by Dellathane

Next question of course is, is it possible for a province to rebel against rebels?

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The answer is positive. I saw it in my last French campaign. After I started a war with the Pope and was excommed lots of my provinces rebeled. I withdrew my troops from them but next year EACH of these province had a loyalist rebelion in my favor against those rebels. So, I guess the prerequisite of a rebelion against rebels is the recent possession of the province by some faction able to instill strong loyalty in its subjects.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

The answer is positive. I saw it in my last French campaign. After I started a war with the Pope and was excommed lots of my provinces rebeled. I withdrew my troops from them but next year EACH of these province had a loyalist rebelion in my favor against those rebels. So, I guess the prerequisite of a rebelion against rebels is the recent possession of the province by some faction able to instill strong loyalty in its subjects.

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yes. ı experienced sometihing like this too. a province rebel against rebels. it is usual if your influence(of the king) increase (2 to 3 or alike) loyalist rebel aginst rebels.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

The answer is positive. I saw it in my last French campaign. After I started a war with the Pope and was excommed lots of my provinces rebeled. I withdrew my troops from them but next year EACH of these province had a loyalist rebelion in my favor against those rebels. So, I guess the prerequisite of a rebelion against rebels is the recent possession of the province by some faction able to instill strong loyalty in its subjects.

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I think this is possible because you owned the province at the end-turn, not the rebels. If I'm not mistaken, once the rebels truly own a province then no loyalist rebellions occur. They are still susceptible to reemergences though.

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Originally Posted by drone

I think this is possible because you owned the province at the end-turn, not the rebels. If I'm not mistaken, once the rebels truly own a province then no loyalist rebellions occur. They are still susceptible to reemergences though.

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When extensive rebellions occur I can't hold all the provinces with loyalty at zero and no more than garrisoning troops in each. So I set the taxes to very low and withdraw all the troops to a couple of provinces I can hold by doing so. When the rebellions do occur they are usually one-two units due to having no royal forces in the province. So I move in from the shelter province and recapture what used to be mine. As you see, that rules out you supposition that I still could have owned the provinces in the situation described. I simply didn't have enough troops.

I may be way off base as I so often am but what I think "Drone" is referring to is that the rebels appear a turn before anything really happens. Generally, when an army is in a province and are besieging the city , they own it but this isn't true right off with the rebels. You can build new buildings or destroy old ones, etc and react by moving in more troops prior to the rebellion. If I understood you correctly, you are simply moving out your troops while you still own it thus allowing loyalists to form up the same turn the rebellion actually begins (at the end of the turn they appear).

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Originally Posted by LordK9

If I understood you correctly, you are simply moving out your troops while you still own it thus allowing loyalists to form up the same turn the rebellion actually begins (at the end of the turn they appear).

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I didn't make it clear, I'm sorry. I do move out my troops when the province is still mine and there is no hope (zero loyalty) that I can keep it. The end of the turn. The rebels appear. The end of the turn and I'm told that I own the province no more. The end of the turn and I have loyalists popping up in ALL the provinces I left in that way.

Sounds like a good strategy - one of the few things I don't like about this game is that often the rebels within a province show up with cutting edge technology that cannot be produced there (or, with tons of useless siege equipment). If loyalists pop up, that is basically free troops that can make retaking the province easier. Don't you have a bandit problem though (they appear when the garrison drops below 100)? Also, after more thinking, it does make sense that you don't own the province when the loyalists show up. Why would they if you owned it?

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Originally Posted by LordK9

Sounds like a good strategy

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It's not a strategy. It just happened that way. Don't you rely on it, there is no guarantee that you will have it. I saw it happen only once on such an extensive scale.

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Originally Posted by LordK9

Don't you have a bandit problem though (they appear when the garrison drops below 100)?

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I had when I had less game experience. Now I have learned to watch for loyalty drops and adjust the tax regime (or bring in more troops) correspondingly.

I believe the mechanics work like this:

• You pull your troops from the province. The province still belongs to you, and you have full control of the queues. Hit end turn.
• Rebels spawn in the province. This is essentially a siege, the province belongs to you but you cannot build. Hit end turn.
• The rebels capture the province. The loyalist check is performed prior to the rebel lands mechanic, so a loyalist uprising is possible since the happiness is low.
• If loyalists did not emerge, the standard rebel lands happiness mechanic sets in and the loyalty is fixed at 100%. No rebellions are possible, but reemergences are (the 120% factor).

When you play the rebel faction (either with the .conan. cheat or the -ian faction switch), you can see how the happiness mechanic works for them. Rebellions are not a problem.