Ambitious Rebels

[Gilrandir]

Yes, in raw MTW rebels are basically some timid unserious rabble as already suggested, agreed. One might say that they in raw MTW more or less works as some passive place-holder for a region while a "regular faction" (slowly) get ready to take control over that province - generally speaking. It is hardly an active force in raw MTW.

Logically, they should be the way they are in raw MTW. Rebels are supposed to be a band of anarchists who rather destroy and plunder than build, train and have a kind of a state which they seem to do in Redux. At least, it is what I picture when I hear the word "rebels".

[Plato]

Bah! That's just feudal / monarchist propaganda.

Tribal societies were doing just fine during the Dark Ages, with trade and their own culture. They didn't want to work as slaves for someone else's benefit (serfdom); nor did the village-clan-tribe system system reach a pinnacle in just one man (kingdom).

These freedom-loving people weren't warmongers, they just wanted to avoid being subjucated. Unfortunately, they were trampled by royalty and the lick-spittle chroniclers that accompanied them.

Just because they didn't feel the need to demonstrate their martial prowess, raise vanity structures or invent taxation, there's no reason to denigrate them.

Oh, and aristocrats do more plundering than any "rebels".

[drone]

So that's why rebels are so passive! The attack orders never can get ratified by the 2/3rds majority vote in the bi-weekly meeting.

[Gilrandir]

Bah! That's just feudal / monarchist propaganda.

Tribal societies were doing just fine during the Dark Ages, with trade and their own culture. They didn't want to work as slaves for someone else's benefit (serfdom); nor did the village-clan-tribe system system reach a pinnacle in just one man (kingdom).

As soon as they get a leader who will determine their united policy and goad them to a battle they may be equated to a faction (MTW-wise, not in the real world).

[Dellathane]

Yet more evidence as to why the Rebel Rights Movement is such a noble cause!

[LordK9]

Even in the real world, Attila and others fit the bill.

[Brandy Blue]

Oh, and aristocrats do more plundering than any "rebels".

Well, isn't that how they became aristocrats in the first place? Be a bigger thief than your neighbors or be descended from one.

[Axalon]

Logically, they should be the way they are in raw MTW. Rebels are supposed to be a band of anarchists who rather destroy and plunder than build, train and have a kind of a state which they seem to do in Redux. At least, it is what I picture when I hear the word "rebels".

I think you are stretching things pretty thin here, as to somehow "warrant" the default (raw MTW) circumstances on rebels. At any rate, if you (or anybody) want the static, timid and passive rebels in your game - that is your privilege and headache.

Personally, I want and expect more then that out of rebels, a lot more, and so I have radically changed things and designs to make it happen. In general that will (if done successfully) deliver more organic, active and dramatic campaign which in turn will (conventionally speaking) generate a more exciting and interesting experience on this stuff - and I prefer that instead. My result on that is Redux, which may very well still present the best hunting grounds for various rebel activity - so far. It proves that higher levels of challenge and activity is very possible to achieve with the rebels, if that is what people truly want. I want it, and now I can get it...

For the likes of you, who don't (seem to) want higher levels of challenge and activity - raw MTW is a good place to go, no arguments there. For the likes of me - who do want more challenge and activity out of rebels - raw MTW is a poor place to go, due to its designs, traits and performance. As a result, people such as myself will therefore always be better off in the realm of modification and alterations, because it is there, like it or not, where increased challenge and activity levels - beyond what raw MTW can deliver - are to be found somehow. Ergo, people are not stuck with the default experience on rebels, they have a choice on this, as there are both existing and possible alternatives to it.

- A

[Gilrandir]

I think you are stretching things pretty thin here, as to somehow "warrant" the default (raw MTW) circumstances on rebels. At any rate, if you (or anybody) want the static, timid and passive rebels in your game - that is your privilege and headache.

Personally, I want and expect more then that out of rebels, a lot more, and so I have radically changed things and designs to make it happen. In general that will (if done successfully) deliver more organic, active and dramatic campaign which in turn will (conventionally speaking) generate a more exciting and interesting experience on this stuff - and I prefer that instead. My result on that is Redux, which may very well still present the best hunting grounds for various rebel activity - so far. It proves that higher levels of challenge and activity is very possible to achieve with the rebels, if that is what people truly want. I want it, and now I can get it...

For the likes of you, who don't (seem to) want higher levels of challenge and activity - raw MTW is a good place to go, no arguments there. For the likes of me - who do want more challenge and activity out of rebels - raw MTW is a poor place to go, due to its designs, traits and performance. As a result, people such as myself will therefore always be better off in the realm of modification and alterations, because it is there, like it or not, where increased challenge and activity levels - beyond what raw MTW can deliver - are to be found somehow. Ergo, people are not stuck with the default experience on rebels, they have a choice on this, as there are both existing and possible alternatives to it.

- A

What I look for in this game is not only a challenge (however minute it may seem to you), but also (and may be primarily) an essential proportion of logics and historic accuracy. If modding takes these away giving the rebels, say, Darth Vader as a general to make them more aggressive and invincible, consequently challenging, it does not make the game better, in my opinion.

[caravel]

"Difficult rebels" are easy enough to produce - just give them specific uber units, lower upkeep and training costs and rebel faction specific cathedral income buildings...

While this arguably makes it more challenging for the player, it also makes it next to impossible for the AI - which is as dumb as a brick (especially on the campaign map) and will be quickly overrun. The Rebels have a notable advantage over the other factions - no rebellions or provincial loyalty problems. This means that the rebels' tax rates are fixed at "very high" and they don't suffer from it (except in the case of faction reappearances).

The better approach is to just create a rebel specific cathedral income building (these are auto-razed when factions invade) and leave units and their stats balanced. This gives the rebel faction what they need more than anything else - funding (but not too much funding).

The problem with any theoretical rebel faction specific buildings, is that the rebels won't develop their provinces in line with what the major factions are doing - so provinces will be very underdeveloped and the rebel specific buildings will be razed on the loss of the province.

[LordK9]

What I look for in this game is not only a challenge (however minute it may seem to you), but also (and may be primarily) an essential proportion of logics and historic accuracy. If modding takes these away giving the rebels, say, Darth Vader as a general to make them more aggressive and invincible, consequently challenging, it does not make the game better, in my opinion.

My thoughts exactly. Plenty of sci-fi games out there where anything goes.

[Axalon]

What I look for in this game is not only a challenge (however minute it may seem to you), but also (and may be primarily) an essential proportion of logics and historic accuracy. If modding takes these away giving the rebels, say, Darth Vader as a general to make them more aggressive and invincible, consequently challenging, it does not make the game better, in my opinion.

Right.... Well, if you want to believe that I and others resort to - or need - Darth Vader, the logic of the Marvel universe and Mickey mouse to get more activity and kick out of the rebels - then have it your way.... Making rebels harder somehow is easy (as is the entire game), making them function properly is a different story (as is also true for the entire game). Anyhow, I can obviously do little for you anyways. Have fun with raw MTW rebels...

I have already basically said what I wanted to say here, people have a choice on rebels, they are not stuck with the default rebels, there are alternatives on this for the people so inclined (Medmod and Redux are for instance existing alternatives, and it is possible create some on your own).

- A