So what I said over there was this, that atheist have no foundation for morals. Lets be clear, I am not saying atheist have no morals, or a purely atheistic society will not come up with morals.
So here it goes
morality read post 2 and 20 for misunderstandings on what is meant. and why atheist have no logical grounds for claiming there are and being moral, in fact as shown by hitler/Darwin, they are being inconstant with evolution atheism by trying to have christian morals..
"if it all happens naturalistic whats the need for a god? cant I set my own rules? who owns me? I own myself". Jefery dahmer DVD documentary Jeffrey Dahmer the monster within
This is inconsistent with an evolutionary worldview in which there is no logical basis for “good” or “bad.” By making such a statement, the evolutionist is actually borrowing morals from the Christian worldview and the Bible in order to claim something is “trickery.”
Within a naturalistic, evolutionary worldview, morality is merely a matter of subjective opinion. So, whether something such as trickery or deception is wrong depends on each person—because it’s merely the result of chemical reactions in our brains. I could just as easily say that this email we received is deceptive and full of wishful thinking. And if I get a big enough group together, we can decide that your definition of trickery is wrong. The combined random chemical reactions in our brains form the majority, which makes you wrong—at least until another majority comes along. Without any ultimate standard, we could go back and forth all day saying this is right or that is right. As silly as this scenario sounds, it is one of the only arguments evolutionists have for anything that resembles morality.Absolute morals only make sense in a Christian worldview—they come from the One who knows what is good because He is the standard for good. The only One who fits that description is the God of the Bible, the Creator of the universe.
In fact you only feel ,murder,rape etc are wrong because the random chemical reactions in your brain make you feel that way. Not because it truly is right or wrong. I may be like hitler and think murdering is good, what makes your random chemical reactions correct and mine wrong?.They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.
Second claim made was that hitler was a christian.
sad but true. So lets see what hitler has to say on it.
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold it ." (p 278)
From "Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944", published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc. first edition, 1953, The book was published in Britain under the title, "Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944", which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
Hitler was all about evolution, atheism,natural selection, nature's law.
“ He who does not wish to fight in this world, where permanent struggle is the law of life, has not the right to exist”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p266 2003
“The stronger must dominate and not mate with the weaker, which would signify the sacrafice of its own higher nature. Only the born weakling can look upon this principle as cruel,and if he does so it is mearly because he is of a feebler nature and narrower mind for if such a law did not direct the process of evolution
then the higher development of organic life would not be conceivable at all”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p262 2003
“if nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one. Because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being may thus be rendered futile.”
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p263 2003
Hitler--> "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness....”(A. Speer, Inside the Third Reich, pp. 142-143)
As early as 1925, Hitler outlined his conclusion in Chapter 4 of#Mein Kampf#that Darwinism was theonly#basis for a successful Germany and which the title of his most famous work#—#in English#My Struggle#—#alluded to. As Clark concluded, Adolf Hitler:‘ …was captivated by evolutionary teaching#—#probably since the time he was a boy. Evolutionary ideas#—#quite undisguised#—#lie at the basis of all that is worst in#Mein Kampf#-and in his public speeches …. Hitler reasoned … that a higher race would always conquer a lower.’
Clark, Robert,#Darwin: Before and After,#Grand Rapids International Press, Grand Rapids, MI, 1958
And Hickman adds that it is no coincidence that Hitler:
‘#… was a firm believer and preacher of evolution. Whatever the deeper, profound, complexities of his psychosis, it is certain that [the concept of struggle was important because] … his book,#Mein Kampf, clearly set forth a number of evolutionary ideas, particularly those emphasizing struggle, survival of the fittest and the extermination of the weak to produce a better society.’
Hickman, R.,#Biocreation,#Science Press, Worthington, OH, pp. 51–52, 1983
‘One of the central planks in Nazi theory and doctrine was …evolutionary theory [and] … that all biology had evolved … upward, and that … less evolved types … should be actively eradicated [and] … that natural selection could and should be actively aided, and therefore [the Nazis] instituted political measures to eradicate … Jews, and … blacks, whom they considered as “underdeveloped”.
Wilder-Smith,#B., The Day Nazi Germany Died, Master Books, San Diego, CA, p. 27, 1982
‘ … straightforward German social Darwinism of a type widely known and accepted throughout Germany and which, more importantly, was considered by most Germans, scientists included, to be scientifically true. More recent scholarship on national socialism and Hitler has begun to realize that … [their application of Darwin’s theory] was the specific characteristic of Nazism. National socialist “biopolicy,” … [was] a policy based on a mystical-biological belief in radical inequality, a monistic, antitranscendent moral nihilism based on the eternal struggle for existence and the survival of the fittest as the law of nature, and the consequent use of state power for a public policy of natural selection….
Stein, G., Biological science and the roots of Nazism,#American Scientist#76(1):50–58, 1988
Hitler, as an evolutionist,‘consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution’.
"If war be the progeny of evolution#—#and I am convinced that it is#—#then evolution has “gone mad”, reaching such a height of ferocity as must frustrate its proper role in the world of life#—#which is the advancement of her competing “units”, these being tribes, nations, or races of mankind. There is no way of getting rid of war save one, and that is to rid human nature of the sanctions imposed on it by the law of evolution. Can man … render the law of evolution null and void? … I have discovered no way that is at once possible and practicable. “There is no escape from human nature.” Because Germany has drunk the vat of evolution to its last dregs, and in her evolutionary debauch has plunged Europe into a bath of blood, that is no proof that the law of evolution is evil. A law which brought man out of the jungle and made him king of beasts cannot be altogether bad.’#
Keith, A.,#Evolution and Ethics,#G.P. Putnam’s Sons, New York, p. 230, 1946.
‘The Jews, labelled subhumans, became nonbeings. It was both legal and right to exterminate them in the collectivist and evolutionist viewpoint. They were not considered … persons in the sight of the German government.’
Whitehead, J,#The Stealing of America, Crossway Books, Westchester, IL, p. 15, 1983
‘The Germans were the higher race, destined for a glorious evolutionary future. For this reason it was essential that the Jews should be segregated, otherwise mixed marriages would take place. Were this to happen, all nature’s efforts “to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being may thus be rendered futile”#(Mein Kampf).’
talking of chirtianity hitler says
‘ … organized lie [that] must be smashed.The State must remain the absolute master. When I was younger, I thought it was necessary to set about [destroying religion] … with dynamite. I’ve since realized there’s room for a little subtlety …. The final state must be … in St. Peter’s Chair, a senile officiant; facing him a few sinister old women … The young and healthy are on our side#…#it’s impossible to eternally hold humanity in bondage and lies …. [It] was only between the sixth and eighth centuries that Christianity was imposed upon our peoples …. Our peoples had previously succeeded in living all right without this religion. I have six divisions of SS men absolutely indifferent in matters of religion. It doesn’t prevent them from going to their death with serenity in their souls.’
Hitler, A.,#Hitler’s Secret Conversations 1941–1944, With an introductory essay on The Mind of Adolf Hitler by H.R. Trevor-Roper, Farrar, Straus and Young, New York, p. 116, 1953.
Hitler was influenced above all by the theories of the nineteenth-century social Darwinist school, whose conception of man as biological material was bound up with impulses towards a planned society.#
Fest, J.C.,#The Face of the Third Reich,#Pantheon, NY, pp. 99–100, 1970.
“ He who does not wish to fight in this world, where permanent struggle is the law of life, has not the right to exist”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p266 2003
“The stronger must dominate and not mate with the weaker, which would signify the sacrafice of its own higher nature. Only the born weakling can look upon this principle as cruel,and if he does so it is mearly because he is of a feebler nature and narrower mind for if such a law did not direct the process of evolution then the higher development of organic life would not be conceivable at all”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p262 2003
“if nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one. Because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being may thus be rendered futile.”
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p263 2003
# Hitler made it clear that he “hated Christianity” and was going to eliminate it when the war ended
#“it had crippled everything noble about humanity” (quoted in Kershaw, 2000, p. 936).
Kershaw, Ian. 2000.#Hitler. 1936-45: Nemesis.#New York: W.W. Norton.
# Hitler was trying to use science — especially Darwinism — to create a utopia on Earth, and he made it absolutely clear that there would be “no place in this utopia for the Christian Churches” in his plans for the future of Germany.# He realized that this was a long term goal and “was prepared to put off long-term ideological goals in favor of short-term advantage”
p. 238 Kershaw, Ian. 2000.#Hitler. 1936-45: Nemesis.#New York: W.W. Norton.
#For example, when Germany invaded Poland, around 200 executions a day occurred — all without trials — which included especially, the “nobility, clerics, and Jews,” all which were eventually to be exterminated (Kershaw, 2000, p. 243)
Hitler considered Christianity the “invention of the Jew Saul” (Azar, 1990, p. 154)
Azar, Larry. 1990.#Twentieth Century in Crisis.#Dubuque, IA: Kendall Hunt.
“murdered by Hitler’s stormtroopers.# In an attempt to discredit the Church, monks were brought to trial on immorality charges.# In 1935 the Protestant churches were placed under state control.# Protesting ministers and priests were sent to concentration camps.# They had become ‘supervisives’ on a par with the Jews and communists.# Pope Pius XI, realizing the anti-Christian nature of Nazism, charged Hitler with ‘the threatening storm clouds of destructive religious wars ... which have no other aim than ... that of extermination.’# But the Nazi shouts of ‘Kill the Jews’ drowned out the warning voice of the Pope and the agonized cries of the tortured in the concentration camps” (Dimont, 1994, p. 397).
“Hitler spoke of both Protestants and Catholics with contempt, convinced that all Christians would betray their God when they were forced to choose between the swastika and the Cross: ‘Do you really believe the masses will be Christian again?# Nonsense!# Never again.# That tale is finished.# No one will listen to it again.# But we can hasten matters.# The parsons will dig their own graves.# They will betray their God to us.# They will betray anything for the sake of their miserable jobs and incomes’” (1995, p. 104).
Lutzer, Erwin W. 1995.#Hitler’s Cross: The Revealing Story of How the Cross of Christ was Used as a Symbol of the Nazi Agenda.#Chicago, IL: Moody Press.
physicist Albert Einstein
“lover of freedom, when the (Nazi) revolution came, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but no, the universities were immediately silenced.# Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth.# I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration for it because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual and moral freedom.# I am forced to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly” (cited by Wilhelm Niemoller in#Kampi und Zeugnis der bekennenden Kirche#— Struggle and Testimony of the Confessing Church, p. 526. and Cochrane).
Altogether Hitler’s killing machine murdered 5 million Jews, and 7 million Christians — a little published fact that caused Jewish historian Max Dimont to declare that “the world blinded itself to the murder of Christians” by Nazi Germany (Dimont, 1994, pp. 391-392).# In Poland alone 881 Catholic priests were annihilated (Azar, 1990, p. 154).# In time many more priests would end up in concentration camps.
Dachau concentration camp held the largest number of Catholic priests — over 2,400 — in the Nazi camp system.# They came from about 24 nations, and included parish priests and prelates, monks and friars, teachers and missionaries.# Over one third of the priests in Dachau alone were killed (Lenz, 2004).# One Dachau survivor, Fr. Johannes Lenz, wrote an account of the Catholic holocaust.# He claimed that the Catholic Church was the only steadfast fighter against the Nazis.# Lenz tells the agony and martyrdom of the physical and mental tortures Dachau inmates experienced.# Men and women were murdered by the thousands in Dachau, and those who survived were considered “missionaries in Hell.”# The fact is, official Nazi works taught both anti-Semitic and anti-Christian doctrines:
“If one believes the anti-Semitic, one should also believe the anti-Christian, for both had a single purpose.# Hitler’s aim was to eradicate all religious organizations within the state and to foster a return to paganism” (Dimont, 1994, p. 397).
More documents that prove Nazi’s planned to “eliminate Christianity and convert its followers to an Aryan philosophy” are now on the online version of#Rutgers Journal of Law and Religion#(Hotchkin, 2003, p. 3).# The church did much to fight Nazism, but not nearly enough.# Nonetheless, there is no way that they can they be held as the#cause#of Nazism.
‘ …#modern eugenics thought arose only in the nineteenth century. The emergence of interest in eugenics during that century had multiple roots. The most important was the theory of evolution, for Francis Galton’s ideas on eugenics#—#and it was he who created the term “eugenics”#—#were a direct logical outgrowth of the scientific doctrine elaborated by his cousin, Charles Darwin.’
Ludmerer, K., Eugenics,#In:#Encyclopedia of Bioethics,#Edited by Mark Lappe, The Free Press, New York, p. 457, 1978
‘ … struggle, selection, and survival of the fittest, all notions and observations arrived at … by Darwin … but already in luxuriant bud in the German social philosophy of the nineteenth century. … Thus developed the doctrine of Germany’s inherent right to rule the world on the basis of superior strength … [of a] “hammer and anvil” relationship between the Reich and the weaker nations.’
Keith, A.,#Evolution and Ethics,#G.P. Putnam’s Sons, New York, p. 230, 1946
11-03-2012, 22:19
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Posted by sir moody
Quote:
Hogwash - society already had law and a moral code long before Christianity was born - The Ancient Egyptians had them, the Babylonians hand them and I wouldn't be surprised to learn we had them even further back than that
Morals are a product of HUMANITY and can be found where ever Humans call home - no matter if Religion or lack of Religion hold sway
We as a society shape the Moral code - this is precisely why different societies have different Moral's
Again completely missed point again, I never said morals would not arise in a atheistic society [none of what you listed were]. I never said atheist are not moral, I said morals make no sense in a atheistic worldview, you are being inconstant claiming there is moral "right" and "wrongs" read OP slowly.
Quote:
... please for the sake of your Sky Wizard would you please READ MY POSTS - Atheists don't believe morals or the law are derived from chemical impulses - and those very chemical impulses you keep brining up are NOT random at all
I agree 100% please read my post, I will post again.
I was saying that the belief or feeling that atheist get [if atheism is true] that murder,rape,sexism etc are wrong, is nothing more than random chemical reactions in there brain. They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions]That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.
Quote:
your clearly misinformed then - I suggest you talk it over with someone who cares
oh and no I will keep posting in this thread - I would rather keep this garbage in one place so, when the Admins get around to closing it, it doesn't spread like a cancer through the backroom
Women are human beings - all human beings (White, Black, Men or Women) deserve to be treated as equals - it has nothing to do with a Sky Wizard or what ever image they were "made in" - it is Empathy pure and simple
The very fact women until very recently (in historical terms) didn't share the same rights as men is a product of the Christian and other churches - go re-read your bible its riddled with Woman being subjected
Why do they deserve to be treated good?that is just your opinion,your random chemicals in brain making you believe they have value if atheism is true.
As I pointed out before with darwin quotes, my point was why not be racist sexist if evolution is true? You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out, you would be doing the opposite of evolution and what got us here to follow christian morals and to act like people have unalienable rights, and value.These are biblical ideas that people were created in the image of god.,
again no proof just claims, I would think it has to do with atheist evolutionist like darwin.
You than claim that woman are not equal in bible somehow, I am not sure how at all. But as atheist why would you allow woman to have rights? what makes you think they deserve them? they are just random matter, why not as men are stronger lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?.You act like they have value and right etc but this only comes if they are given these right or have unalienable right, such as if they were created in the image of god.
For example why is darwin wrong in your eye?
Darwin listed the advantages of marrying, which included: ". . . constant companion, (friend in old age) who will feel interested in one, object to be beloved and played with—better than a dog anyhow—Home, and someone to take care of house . . ." (Darwin, 1958:232,233).
Darwin reasoned that as a married man he would be a "poor slave, . . . worse than a Negro," but then reminisces that, "one cannot live the solitary life, with groggy old age, friendless ... and childless staring in one's face...." Darwin concludes his discussion on the philosophical note, "there is many a happy slave" and shortly thereafter, married (1958:234).
, "reasoned that males are more evolutionarily advanced than females" (Kevles, 1986:8). Many anthropologists contemporary to Darwin concluded that "women's brains were analogous to those of animals," which had "overdeveloped" sense organs "to the detriment of the brain" (Fee, 1979:418). Carl Vogt, a University of Geneva natural history professor who accepted many of "the conclusions of England's great modern naturalist, Charles Darwin," argued that "the child, the female, and the senile white" all had the intellect and nature of the "grown up Negro" (1863:192). Many of Darwin's followers accepted this reasoning, including George Romanes, who concluded that evolution caused females to become, as Kevles postulated:
One reason nineteenth century biologists argued for women's inferiority was because Darwin believed that
[progressive idea woman rights] threatened to produce a perturbance of the races" and to "divert the orderly process of evolution" (Fee, 1979:415).
. . . a higher eminence, in whatever he takes up, than can women—whether requiring deep thought, reason, or imagination, or merely the use of the senses and hands. If two lists were made of the most eminent men and women in poetry, painting, sculpture, music (inclusive of both composition and performance), history, science, and philosophy, with half-a-dozen names under each subject, the two lists would not bear comparison. We may also infer, from the law of the deviation from averages, so well illustrated by Mr. Galton, in his work on "Hereditary Genius" that . . . the average of mental power in man must be above that of women (Darwin, 1896:564).
Darwin, Charles. 1896. The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex. New York: D. Appleton and Company.
Quote:
Hitler WAS Christian - he was born Catholic - he followed Catholic teachings - early on he actively encouraged his followers to be Christian - later after the German Church distanced itself from him and actively criticised him he "lost faith" in Christianity and actively blamed them for his failures - he never stoped believing in god however and instead created his own church
It is a historical fact he was Christian - accept it and move on - that doesn't mean Christianity bares the brunt blame for Hitler - that lies on the shoulders of Fascism
Now clearly you are a member of the "Christian Taliban" so I don't expect you to actually accept this and frankly I am done argueing with a brick wall - at least for tonight
Ok he was raised and maybe was early a christian, I dont disagree, but when he became nazi before germany takeover he was no longer a christian.
You claimed "he never stoped believing in god however and instead created his own church" you will never be able to support this with any evidence at all.
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold it ." (p 278)
From "Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944", published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc. first edition, 1953, The book was published in Britain under the title, "Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944", which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
If I was member of taliban would i not want hitler to be christian?.
11-03-2012, 22:42
Sir Moody
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by total relism
If I was member of taliban would i not want hitler to be christian?.
Funnily enough you cant even quote my insults correctly...
The Taliban believed that Islam was correct and everything else was wrong and so they enforced a strict policy of persecution against anything that disagreed with them - because Islam was always right and they represented Islam so they could never be wrong
The "Christian Taliban" is a slur aimed at fundamentalists like yourself - you and the Taliban are the same in ideology (you just replace Islam with Christianity) - you start every assumption with the knowledge you are right because God said so and thus anyone who disagrees is just wrong - and then you invent the reasons why they are wrong
Thankfully the "Christian Taliban" unlike the actual Taliban don't resort to violence - you just use Propaganda (like the stuff you are spewing all over your posts) and an ability to put your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALALALALALALA I cant hear you" when someone disagrees
honestly your will-full and blatant cherry picking of quotes and utter inability to Understand what others are telling you while you quote the same dogmatic drivel that has been force fed to you means any kind of debate is pointless
Hitler was Christian - live with it
If you want some Atheist Dictators you should go have a look at Stalin and Pol Pot - they were Atheists and also mass murderers - not believing in sky faeries doesn't magically make you a better person - funnily enough believing in sky faeries doesn't either - that is totally down to you
I am done with arguing with a "liar for Christ" - I hope you come to realise the hateful drivel you a peddling will do no good for anyone and that only by pulling together can we all get passed this stupidity
I highly recommend you go to http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ where there are plenty of Atheists with much greater tolerance for stupidity - they will be happy to show you just how wrong you are
11-03-2012, 23:32
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Why does it matter if Hitler was atheist or christian?
Is he representative for Christianity? Or for Atheism? Last I checked he was representative for a rather extreme form of national socialism. Has this changed?
Lots of christian leaders have been good, lots have been bad. Lots of atheist leaders have been good, lots have been bad. So the deciding factor seem to not be religion (or the lack of it).
To be able to compare the morality of christians vs atheists it would make more sense to, say, look at crime statistics.
Last I checked in the USA, Christians were over represented in the criminal statistics compared to atheists... So by that logic there seem to be something in Christianity making people less moral?
11-03-2012, 23:37
Sir Moody
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Why does it matter if Hitler was atheist or christian?
Is he representative for Christianity? Or for Atheism? Last I checked he was representative for a rather extreme form of national socialism. Has this changed?
Lots of christian leaders have been good, lots have been bad. Lots of atheist leaders have been good, lots have been bad. So the deciding factor seem to not be religion (or the lack of it).
I'll admit I do get hung up on Christians who misrepresent Hitler's faith - it shows blatant disregard for History and that gets under my skin - in truth it doesn't matter at all - as I said not believing in sky faeries doesn't magically make you a better person - and neither does believing in them
11-03-2012, 23:47
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Funnily enough you cant even quote my insults correctly...
The Taliban believed that Islam was correct and everything else was wrong and so they enforced a strict policy of persecution against anything that disagreed with them - because Islam was always right and they represented Islam so they could never be wrong
The "Christian Taliban" is a slur aimed at fundamentalists like yourself - you and the Taliban are the same in ideology (you just replace Islam with Christianity) - you start every assumption with the knowledge you are right because God said so and thus anyone who disagrees is just wrong - and then you invent the reasons why they are wrong
Thankfully the "Christian Taliban" unlike the actual Taliban don't resort to violence - you just use Propaganda (like the stuff you are spewing all over your posts) and an ability to put your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALALALALALALA I cant hear you" when someone disagrees
honestly your will-full and blatant cherry picking of quotes and utter inability to Understand what others are telling you while you quote the same dogmatic drivel that has been force fed to you means any kind of debate is pointless
Hitler was Christian - live with it
If you want some Atheist Dictators you should go have a look at Stalin and Pol Pot - they were Atheists and also mass murderers - not believing in sky faeries doesn't magically make you a better person - funnily enough believing in sky faeries doesn't either - that is totally down to you
I am done with arguing with a "liar for Christ" - I hope you come to realise the hateful drivel you a peddling will do no good for anyone and that only by pulling together can we all get passed this stupidity
I highly recommend you go to http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ where there are plenty of Atheists with much greater tolerance for stupidity - they will be happy to show you just how wrong you are
Well I could not find anything on topic here,besides the arbitrary claim that Hitler was christian, despite what he would say, and did say. It is weird to me, on Islam thread, you wish to talk on these subjects and wont let it go. Than I create a thread for it, you dont want to talk of it anymore. You did however commit many a logical fallacies. Such as being arbitrary,a few Question begging epithet when someone imports bias often emotional language to support a claim "ignorant" "dishonest" "stupid" "gullible" or other disparaging remarks. lastly some ad hominem attack on person not argument. Usually this is the case when people run out of arguments or are losing a argument. I will let any viewer decide that. Thanks for link, I will likely sigh up. Oh snap, PZ meyer is on there, cant wait. I cant find anywhere to sigh up, could you link me. It just seems like a bunch of articles.
11-03-2012, 23:54
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Why does it matter if Hitler was atheist or christian?
Is he representative for Christianity? Or for Atheism? Last I checked he was representative for a rather extreme form of national socialism. Has this changed?
Lots of christian leaders have been good, lots have been bad. Lots of atheist leaders have been good, lots have been bad. So the deciding factor seem to not be religion (or the lack of it).
To be able to compare the morality of christians vs atheists it would make more sense to, say, look at crime statistics.
Last I checked in the USA, Christians were over represented in the criminal statistics compared to atheists... So by that logic there seem to be something in Christianity making people less moral?
The point I made was, a atheist cant say what hitler did was wrong. But he was clearly atheist. Sir Moody wont be able to provide evidence otherwise, as far as when he grew up and was a nazi.
I would like to see stats, but matters not as you pointed out, its what worldview makes sense of morality, not who follows it or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
I'll admit I do get hung up on Christians who misrepresent Hitler's faith - it shows blatant disregard for History and that gets under my skin - in truth it doesn't matter at all - as I said not believing in sky faeries doesn't magically make you a better person - and neither does believing in them
This coming from someone who claims hitler was a christian.Of course he wont be able to provide any his historical evidence. I show qoutes from his own book, and interview with him, but those must just be from the sky fairy lol.
just like this is not because of a atheistic evolutionary worldview, but must be a christian conspiracy.
evolutionary anthropology came to light this week as a group of skulls were returned to Namibia. The skulls were harvested in 1904 during colonial uprisings and sent to Germany. While this massacre of the colonial natives represents one of the first genocides of the 20th century, these skulls were sent to Germany to gain scientific support for European racial superiority. “At the time, they viewed the skulls not as human remains but as material with which to investigate and classify race,” explained a spokeswoman for the Charité Hospital where the skulls were returned to the Namibian delegation http://www.spiegel.de/international/...788601,00.html
11-04-2012, 00:10
Rhyfelwyr
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
This thread is pointless, it doesn't matter if Hitler was an atheist or a Christian since what he did wasn't related to those beliefs.
He definitely believed in God, although he did take a negative view of mainstream Christianity which he considered to be essentially a Jewish faith. At the same time Hitler invented 'Positive Christianity' where Jesus was some sort of Aryan messiah.
It just depends on whether or not you want to call that Christian.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Christians don't kill children.
True Scotsman fallacy.
11-04-2012, 01:49
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
True Scotsman fallacy.
Does not apply - to the True Scotsman, or anything else.
The fallacy in question concerns the redefinition of a a type - the "Scotsman" example used is actually fallacious, because Scots are initially claimed to never be racists, automatically placing all rapists outside the "Scotsman" category.
The violent Aberdeenian rapist is, per definition, not a Scotsman.
11-04-2012, 02:06
Rhyfelwyr
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Surely when the initial claim that "No Scotsman would do that" is made, that is not an attempt at defining something inherent in Scottishness though. It's not a logical statement or an axiom (or whatever, too many strange words for this Scotsman...). He just believes that a Scotsman (as it is traditionally understood - ie someone from Scotland) would not commit rape. Hence when he hears of the next rape, he is being fallacious by acknowledging the person is in some sense Scottish according to any common definition of the term, but throws in the disclaimer that he is not a "true" Scot.
If we were to treat it as you are suggesting and absolutely accept the initial claim that all Scots are not rapists, then the guy should have simply said the rapist was obviously "not a Scotsman", as opposed to saying he was "not a true Scotsman".
11-04-2012, 09:11
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
This thread is pointless, it doesn't matter if Hitler was an atheist or a Christian since what he did wasn't related to those beliefs.
He definitely believed in God, although he did take a negative view of mainstream Christianity which he considered to be essentially a Jewish faith. At the same time Hitler invented 'Positive Christianity' where Jesus was some sort of Aryan messiah.
It just depends on whether or not you want to call that Christian.
It is just on was he christian or not, he clearly was not. But some claim falsely he was. I did not bring it up, sir moody did on another thread. Please tell me were you think he believed in god? I will show you his god in bold.
Hitler was all about evolution, atheism,natural selection, nature's law.
“ He who does not wish to fight in this world, where permanent struggle is the law of life, has not the right to exist”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p266 2003
“The stronger must dominate and not mate with the weaker, which would signify the sacrafice of its own higher nature. Only the born weakling can look upon this principle as cruel,and if he does so it is mearly because he is of a feebler nature and narrower mind for if such a law did not direct the process of evolution then the higher development of organic life would not be conceivable at all”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p262 2003
“if nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one. Because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being may thus be rendered futile.”
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p263 2003
Notice in the above quote he gives god like attributes to "mother nature" as many do today.She has a mind and opinion "wishes" she tries to influence life "her efforts" she is creator "higher level of evolution"
Hitler--> "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness....”(A. Speer, Inside the Third Reich, pp. 142-143)
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law,a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold it ." (p 278)
From "Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944", published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc. first edition, 1953, The book was published in Britain under the title, "Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944", which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
Total relism, I think I would find your posts more interesting if you analyzed more, and spent less time copying and pasting.
About Christians being over represented in crimes, I recommend you to read Richard Dawkins book "The God Delusion". He covers the topic there and source it quite well. That book might do you good to read regardless actually, as I think it would enhance your understanding for the atheist view.
11-04-2012, 10:16
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
Surely when the initial claim that "No Scotsman would do that" is made, that is not an attempt at defining something inherent in Scottishness though. It's not a logical statement or an axiom (or whatever, too many strange words for this Scotsman...). He just believes that a Scotsman (as it is traditionally understood - ie someone from Scotland) would not commit rape. Hence when he hears of the next rape, he is being fallacious by acknowledging the person is in some sense Scottish according to any common definition of the term, but throws in the disclaimer that he is not a "true" Scot.
If we were to treat it as you are suggesting and absolutely accept the initial claim that all Scots are not rapists, then the guy should have simply said the rapist was obviously "not a Scotsman", as opposed to saying he was "not a true Scotsman".
The important thing to understand is that the man making the "No True Scotsman" claim has been duped into thinking that claim needs qualification - it doesn't.
He defined Scotsmen as men who do not rape, that is an axiomatic statement, his interlocutor is defining Scotsmen geographically, which is a materialistic statement. The issue arises because the first man gives credence to his interlocutor, not because his initial statement was logically flawed.
11-04-2012, 10:56
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Total relism, I think I would find your posts more interesting if you analyzed more, and spent less time copying and pasting.
About Christians being over represented in crimes, I recommend you to read Richard Dawkins book "The God Delusion". He covers the topic there and source it quite well. That book might do you good to read regardless actually, as I think it would enhance your understanding for the atheist view.
Also thank you for the suggestions, I fully understand the "majority" atheist view, it is inconstant with atheism is all I have been saying. Please read what I wrote on OP here
"So what I said over there was this, that atheist have no foundation for morals. Lets be clear, I am not saying atheist have no morals, or a purely atheistic society will not come up with morals."
Also thank you for the suggestions, I fully understand the "majority" atheist view, it is inconstant with atheism is all I have been saying. Please read what I wrote on OP here
"So what I said over there was this, that atheist have no foundation for morals. Lets be clear, I am not saying atheist have no morals, or a purely atheistic society will not come up with morals."
But what is your point?
A) Every society has come up with morals. EVERY SINGLE SOCIETY. Looking at history, it is rather clear that religion, once again, isn't the deciding factor if a society is moral or not.
B) In the US, Christians are over represented in criminal statistics. The conclusions to draw from this would be that Christianity have a negative impact on moral in society, no?
C) Hitler was vegan. Is that what made him do the things he did? He also had a mustache, could that be the reason? Or is it the mustache coupled with him being vegan that is the more important factor?
:dizzy2:
EDIT: Rather one-sided debate from the bible belt where Dawkins rarely get the opportunity to refute what the other guy say. It gets more and more clear that he gets frustrated.
You can do better than that dude, if you want facts, read the books. Not just watch highly moderated debates from the bible belt.
11-04-2012, 11:51
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
But what is your point?
A) Every society has come up with morals. EVERY SINGLE SOCIETY. Looking at history, it is rather clear that religion, once again, isn't the deciding factor if a society is moral or not.
B) In the US, Christians are over represented in criminal statistics. The conclusions to draw from this would be that Christianity have a negative impact on moral in society, no?
C) Hitler was vegan. Is that what made him do the things he did? He also had a mustache, could that be the reason? Or is it the mustache coupled with him being vegan that is the more important factor?
:dizzy2:
EDIT: Rather one-sided debate from the bible belt where Dawkins rarely get the opportunity to refute what the other guy say. It gets more and more clear that he gets frustrated.
You can do better than that dude, if you want facts, read the books. Not just watch highly moderated debates from the bible belt.
I have no idea how people are missing this. Please read my OP and tell me were you get these ideas.
A] Because we are moral people, created by a moral god, we now there is right and wrong, we have sense of justice etc. Every society has had gods, but that is beside the point. Atheist have no grounds for morality, no right if atheism is true to claim such things as right and wrong, as there is no such thing as right and wrong. They are being inconstant with there worldview. Please read my Op that exspalines it further.
I was saying that the belief or feeling that atheist get [if atheism is true] that murder,rape,sexism etc are wrong, is nothing more than random chemical reactions in there brain. They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.
also please read my first response in its entirety on this thread.
B] Not at all as has been pointed out, even if all atheist were moral 100% and all "christian" bad 100%. that does not matter to what we are disusing.There is no such thing as morals in a atheistic worldview, there is reason to be moral in a christian worldview. You are being inconstant with your beliefs by claiming and being moral as a atheist.Read my first response. Read your own post 4 that refutes what you claim here. you contradict yourself.
I will give you some parts of response.
Again completely missed point again, I never said morals would not arise in a atheistic society [none of what you listed were]. I never said atheist are not moral, I said morals make no sense in a atheistic worldview, you are being inconstant claiming there is moral "right" and "wrongs" read OP slowly.
I was saying that the belief or feeling that atheist get [if atheism is true] that murder,rape,sexism etc are wrong, is nothing more than random chemical reactions in there brain. They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.
Why do they deserve to be treated good?that is just your opinion,your random chemicals in brain making you believe they have value if atheism is true.
As I pointed out before with darwin quotes, my point was why not be racist sexist if evolution is true? You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out, you would be doing the opposite of evolution and what got us here to follow christian morals and to act like people have unalienable rights, and value.These are biblical ideas that people were created in the image of god.,
But as atheist, why would you allow woman to have rights? what makes you think they deserve them? they are just random matter, why not as men are stronger lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?. You act like they have value and right etc but this only comes if they are given these right or have unalienable right, such as if they were created in the image of god.
so the question is, on what grounds as atheist can you say Hitler and Darwin are wrong? they are drawing the logical conclusion of atheism/evolution.The point is you cannot, you have no authority or grounds to claim your morality on.
C] No idea what your saying here, I do not believe in determination, atheist do if they are constant with evolution.atheism.. As dawkins said that you recommended, we are just dancing to the beat of our genes.
Good escuse for debate. I find often that claims unchallenged may sound good, but can often be false, that is why I like debates.
why is a event like this wrong if evolution/atheism is true?
evolutionary anthropology came to light this week as a group of skulls were returned to Namibia. The skulls were harvested in 1904 during colonial uprisings and sent to Germany. While this massacre of the colonial natives represents one of the first genocides of the 20th century, these skulls were sent to Germany to gain scientific support for European racial superiority. “At the time, they viewed the skulls not as human remains but as material with which to investigate and classify race,” explained a spokeswoman for the Charité Hospital where the skulls were returned to the Namibian delegation http://www.spiegel.de/international/...788601,00.html
11-04-2012, 11:56
Ironside
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Fun fact of the day: King David were not allowed into the assembly of the Lord, according to the Bible. And Jesus was the decendant of a daughter raping her father. :laugh4:
Ruth and Deuteronomy 23:1-3 are hints.
I will not stay long on that subject except noticing that condemning homosexuality is in the OT, which is a lovely can of worms and contradictions. So to decide which parts of the OT to keep is in the hands of human interpretations, a fun subject. God is horrible on the standard of good btw, unless you count genocide (many times), generational punishments, mind controlling people and then punish them for what they say during said mind control, etc, etc as good. That said, Christianisty is nicer than most religions, but not really thanks to God in the OT.
Anyway, to give an evolutionary example on morals, who are not absolute, but have a significant natural bias. That bias can in turn be overridden by say religion for example. First thing to remember is that morals can only be formed by interactions. If you're the only living being, there is no such things as morals, since the only one you can interact with are yourself and good and evil is irrelevant at that point (gives an interesting but heretical viewpoint on God learning morals with time btw).
So lets focus on interactions.
Murder: Outside the obvious factor of sexual reproduction, there's also the matter of survival. To kill a competitor (for the food or mates) about your own size is hard. Even harder is getting away fresh enough to survive the next day (notice that this still promotes some aggression). So even for solitary species, there's an evolutionary advantage to not kill member of their own specie, even if they're the same gender. For a cooperative specie like humans, this is significantly stronger. So strong that it's never the sole reason and most of the time not a factor at all, for murders.
You can do similar analyses on a lot of moral factors and also see why a behavior can be generally abhored, yet still remain.
But really, good and bad are defined what a group of people agreed on together. That's why for example the opinion of slavery has varied throughout the Christian world and its history, even despite that it should've been absolute according to you total realism. God has eternal slavery as an "appropiate" punishment for example.
Edit: on the point B) The fun stuff about your "atheism is sexist" is that it goes a much longer way to explain the historical sexism (although a lot of it has to do with inheiritence) than your claim that the Bible isn't sexist does it?
Anyway. The denial for a female to select thier natural partner can't be considered good for the female, ergo rape will always be considered bad for the female. Now, who's the fittest? The man who spends time and resources to feed and control his female slaves or the man cooperating with the females, so that the females will feed and sustain themselves? He also got good odds of converting the first man's females and ursup the first man. Ergo, cooperation with females are treated genetically favourly.
Mixing together Darwin with Hitler is also false. They did not belive the same. Also noting that social darwinism (that certainly didn't come from Darwin) has the fundamental flaw (and that's not counting the ethical aspects) of mixing up fittest with strongest. Competing alpha males ("strong") will lose badly to cooperating beta males ("weak") for example.
11-04-2012, 12:08
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
A) The basis for atheist morals are very simple: "What would happen if everyone would do it?"
You seem to base your argument around it being a God and that this God have given us morals. Remove God from the equation and what are you left with? You also seem to have exclusively read propaganda trying to explain how Atheists struggles with morals. I would recommend you to read some atheistic texts explaining atheistic morals.
B) What are you arguing for then? I have showed you that christians are less moral atheists. Then how oh how can you go on about atheists having no base for their morals? Try and look at society as it IS instead of how you want it to be.
Fact: Christians are less moral than atheists.
Logical conclusion: A atheist society will be more moral than a christian one.
What in this line of argument is it that you argue against?
And to answer your last bold bit: Easy... Hitler was wrong because if every race would try and conquer and exterminate the other races we would have a rather unpleasant world.
C) I have often seen Christians using the "Hitler was atheist" argument, and it's just stupid. Rhyf already explained why if you didn't get me.
This thread is pointless, it doesn't matter if Hitler was an atheist or a Christian since what he did wasn't related to those beliefs.
11-04-2012, 12:38
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
Fun fact of the day: King David were not allowed into the assembly of the Lord, according to the Bible. And Jesus was the decendant of a daughter raping her father. :laugh4:
Ruth and Deuteronomy 23:1-3 are hints.
I will not stay long on that subject except noticing that condemning homosexuality is in the OT, which is a lovely can of worms and contradictions. So to decide which parts of the OT to keep is in the hands of human interpretations, a fun subject. God is horrible on the standard of good btw, unless you count genocide (many times), generational punishments, mind controlling people and then punish them for what they say during said mind control, etc, etc as good. That said, Christianisty is nicer than most religions, but not really thanks to God in the OT.
Anyway, to give an evolutionary example on morals, who are not absolute, but have a significant natural bias. That bias can in turn be overridden by say religion for example. First thing to remember is that morals can only be formed by interactions. If you're the only living being, there is no such things as morals, since the only one you can interact with are yourself and good and evil is irrelevant at that point (gives an interesting but heretical viewpoint on God learning morals with time btw).
So lets focus on interactions.
Murder: Outside the obvious factor of sexual reproduction, there's also the matter of survival. To kill a competitor (for the food or mates) about your own size is hard. Even harder is getting away fresh enough to survive the next day (notice that this still promotes some aggression). So even for solitary species, there's an evolutionary advantage to not kill member of their own specie, even if they're the same gender. For a cooperative specie like humans, this is significantly stronger. So strong that it's never the sole reason and most of the time not a factor at all, for murders.
You can do similar analyses on a lot of moral factors and also see why a behavior can be generally abhored, yet still remain.
But really, good and bad are defined what a group of people agreed on together. That's why for example the opinion of slavery has varied throughout the Christian world and its history, even despite that it should've been absolute according to you total realism. God has eternal slavery as an "appropiate" punishment for example.
Edit: on the point B) The fun stuff about your "atheism is sexist" is that it goes a much longer way to explain the historical sexism (although a lot of it has to do with inheiritence) than your claim that the Bible isn't sexist does it?
Anyway. The denial for a female to select thier natural partner can't be considered good for the female, ergo rape will always be considered bad for the female. Now, who's the fittest? The man who spends time and resources to feed and control his female slaves or the man cooperating with the females, so that the females will feed and sustain themselves? He also got good odds of converting the first man's females and ursup the first man. Ergo, cooperation with females are treated genetically favourly.
King David, what I think your referring to is he could not build the temple, as he had to much blood on his hands.
1 Chronicles 22:7 And David said to Solomon: "My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build a house to the name of the LORD my God; 8 but the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'You have shed much blood and have made great wars; you shall not build a house for My name, because you have shed much blood on the earth in My sight. 9 Behold, a son shall be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies all around. His name shall be Solomon, for I will give peace and quietness to Israel in his days. 10 He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'
Jesus
Not sure what if true would have to do with anything? I studies Ruth I have no idea what your talking about, neither does Deuteronomy passages say anything on it.
Homosexuality is condemned in OT, i agree 100%, not sure why that is a "contradiction" in any way. I keep 100% of OT, but I think you misunderstand alittle here and would be glad to clarify. Much of OT applies only for time,space,certain peoples. Just one example, when god told noah to build a big boat, that does not mean me as a believer should today.
God is horible
Genocide, generational punishments,mind control, etc. I would love to disuse these all with you, you bring up all the topics of a atheist book. I will ask you hold on the "genocide" conquest of cannan. That being my favorite, I wish to do a thread of its own, as i do with twc and other forums.That is my favorite, because atheist are so sure of what they have been told and the few passages they quotes that certainly seem to support there claim. That filling in the rest really lets them down, I love that part. The other two bring up exsaples I would love to tell you from bible what is meant, and exspalin the passages for you.
Hell I will answer now Generational curse This applies if the following generation continues in the sin of the fathers, saying they too will be punished, when they dont, they are not punished. Harden heart
For example pharaoh harded his heart many times first, than later god "streghtend" or "harden" his heart. He gave him strength to do what his heart wanted, lateer he did same thing again chasing after isreal himself.
The bible is against slavery [punsiable by death in OT]. But overall I agree with your atheist morality, majority opinion as I said on OP. The reason in part slavery was so popular was because darwin taught people that blacks were not fully human, so its not slavery.
But notice you reject god because you think he is immoral [I disagree fully, though if I thought of him as you do i would agree genocide etc] yet realize there is no such thing as morality or absolute morals. No such thing as murder being wrong or rape etc just what some decide on. That makes your argument baseless against god, as it demands certain things to be absolutely wrong [genocide].
11-04-2012, 12:45
spankythehippo
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
In my life, I have not been guided by religion. I have learnt morals from others, and by my own trials and errors. That isn't to say that I killed someone, then felt bad afterwards. I can empathise, as an atheist. And to be honest, most morals implemented society can trace their lineage to an ecclesiastic order.
Darwinism and morality are completely different facets on life. Darwinism states the way nature has bred organisms to be. Morality guides those who have a conscious decision of right and wrong.
Does that make atheists immoral?
11-04-2012, 13:00
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
A) The basis for atheist morals are very simple: "What would happen if everyone would do it?"
You seem to base your argument around it being a God and that this God have given us morals. Remove God from the equation and what are you left with? You also seem to have exclusively read propaganda trying to explain how Atheists struggles with morals. I would recommend you to read some atheistic texts explaining atheistic morals.
B) What are you arguing for then? I have showed you that christians are less moral atheists. Then how oh how can you go on about atheists having no base for their morals? Try and look at society as it IS instead of how you want it to be.
Fact: Christians are less moral than atheists.
Logical conclusion: A atheist society will be more moral than a christian one.
What in this line of argument is it that you argue against?
And to answer your last bold bit: Easy... Hitler was wrong because if every race would try and conquer and exterminate the other races we would have a rather unpleasant world.
C) I have often seen Christians using the "Hitler was atheist" argument, and it's just stupid. Rhyf already explained why if you didn't get me.
This thread is pointless, it doesn't matter if Hitler was an atheist or a Christian since what he did wasn't related to those beliefs.
A] does not reply to anything I have posted,I understand you are having alot of trouble understanding. I get the feeling your not reading my replies.Please do so slowly. If you do, you will see none of A applies at all.
B] I will respond the same way as last time you said this, please read carefully.
Not at all as has been pointed out, even if all atheist were moral 100% and all "christian" bad 100%. that does not matter to what we are disusing.There is no such thing as morals in a atheistic worldview, there is reason to be moral in a christian worldview. You are being inconstant with your beliefs by claiming and being moral as a atheist.Read my first response. Read your own post 4 that refutes what you claim here. you contradict yourself.
I will give you some parts of response.
Again completely missed point again, I never said morals would not arise in a atheistic society [none of what you listed were]. I never said atheist are not moral, I said morals make no sense in a atheistic worldview, you are being inconstant claiming there is moral "right" and "wrongs" read OP slowly.
I was saying that the belief or feeling that atheist get [if atheism is true] that murder,rape,sexism etc are wrong, is nothing more than random chemical reactions in there brain. They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.
Why do they deserve to be treated good?that is just your opinion,your random chemicals in brain making you believe they have value if atheism is true.
As I pointed out before with darwin quotes, my point was why not be racist sexist if evolution is true? You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out, you would be doing the opposite of evolution and what got us here to follow christian morals and to act like people have unalienable rights, and value.These are biblical ideas that people were created in the image of god.,
But as atheist, why would you allow woman to have rights? what makes you think they deserve them? they are just random matter, why not as men are stronger lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?. You act like they have value and right etc but this only comes if they are given these right or have unalienable right, such as if they were created in the image of god.
so the question is, on what grounds as atheist can you say Hitler and Darwin are wrong? they are drawing the logical conclusion of atheism/evolution.The point is you cannot, you have no authority or grounds to claim your morality on.
Fact
Please provide evidence, also there are "christian" and true christian.
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
james 2.18
Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
luke 6.46
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
matt 7 15-16
Conclusion
Even if true, does not matter at all, read op and every post I have made since than.
Line of argument
read every post on subject I have made, read OP.
You said
" Hitler was wrong because if every race would try and conquer and exterminate the other races we would have a rather unpleasant world."
according to whom? not hitler, he was speeding up evolution, survival of the fittest. He was creating a better world in his mind, killing off handicap people lower less intelligent races, crazy people who believe in god. are not you liberal ones the one that say the earth is overpopulated?.
I was saying that the belief or feeling that atheist get [if atheism is true] that murder,rape,sexism etc are wrong, is nothing more than random chemical reactions in there brain. They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.
Why do they deserve to be treated good?that is just your opinion,your random chemicals in brain making you believe they have value if atheism is true.
so the question is, on what grounds as atheist can you say Hitler and Darwin are wrong? they are drawing the logical conclusion of atheism/evolution.The point is you cannot, you have no authority or grounds to claim your morality on.
C] I agree it does not apply to what we are talking about, so why do you say christian are worse than non christian? it does not apply. What matters is worldview, hitlers atheistic/evolutionary and darwins worldview is inconstant with morals. Christian worldview is constant, you are being christian claiming there are morals and right and wrongs even though you are atheist. You are being inconstant.
Also I dont think you want to compare total crimes of atheist vs christian in history, that would not go well for you.
11-04-2012, 13:10
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by spankythehippo
In my life, I have not been guided by religion. I have learnt morals from others, and by my own trials and errors. That isn't to say that I killed someone, then felt bad afterwards. I can empathise, as an atheist. And to be honest, most morals implemented society can trace their lineage to an ecclesiastic order.
Darwinism and morality are completely different facets on life. Darwinism states the way nature has bred organisms to be. Morality guides those who have a conscious decision of right and wrong.
Does that make atheists immoral?
I think you missed the point, if you would, my first line says this is not at all what this thread is on. Please read OP.
11-04-2012, 13:11
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
My oh my...
I don't think much progress will be made here.
11-04-2012, 13:20
spankythehippo
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by total relism
I think you missed the point, if you would, my first line says this is not at all what this thread is on. Please read OP.
I think you missed the point, my post says nothing in regard to the OP. Please be mindful that the OP is not the benchmark for a discussion. It merely gets the ball rolling. Imagine living a life where you had to adhere to the same style of thinking for 2000 years. Gah, I shudder at the thought. Exactly what you are doing with every post, alluding to the OP.
Also, I'm pretty sure we had an excellent discussion about pubic hair on a thread about Nazi's. Goes to show the dynamic nature of the Backroom.
11-04-2012, 13:29
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by spankythehippo
I think you missed the point, my post says nothing in regard to the OP. Please be mindful that the OP is not the benchmark for a discussion. It merely gets the ball rolling. Imagine living a life where you had to adhere to the same style of thinking for 2000 years. Gah, I shudder at the thought. Exactly what you are doing with every post, alluding to the OP.
Also, I'm pretty sure we had an excellent discussion about pubic hair on a thread about Nazi's. Goes to show the dynamic nature of the Backroom.
You don't get it... You need to counter his arguments with the other sides arguments as he has presented them in the OP. Doh!
Because that is how debates work. :wall:
11-04-2012, 17:16
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
I agree with Kadagar that there is a foundation for morals in an atheist society. Human beings, religious or not, naturally empathize with others. And even morals could be based on a society's need to survive and compete, in evolutionary terms. I.e. do not harm others, work together, etc.
Having said that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar
B) In the US, Christians are over represented in criminal statistics. The conclusions to draw from this would be that Christianity have a negative impact on moral in society, no?
Only if you do not understand the difference between correlation and causation, an elementary statistical analysis concept.
Also, there's probably better books to read on atheist morality than Dawkin's, who's a jerk.
CR
11-04-2012, 17:20
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
You don't get it... You need to counter his arguments with the other sides arguments as he has presented them in the OP. Doh!
Because that is how debates work. :wall:
The two of you are talking at cross purposes - I've skimmed your posts but I already know the whole argument because we've had it so many times here.
total realism - you are not original, you have not made some earth shattering philosophical discovery, go read Plato.
Kadagar - go have a beer and don't worry about it. Aftr the beer, it may make more sense.
11-04-2012, 17:25
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I agree with Kadagar that there is a foundation for morals in an atheist society. Human beings, religious or not, naturally empathize with others. And even morals could be based on a society's need to survive and compete, in evolutionary terms. I.e. do not harm others, work together, etc.
Having said that...
Only if you do not understand the difference between correlation and causation, an elementary statistical analysis concept.
Also, there's probably better books to read on atheist morality than Dawkin's, who's a jerk.
CR
Of course it's a rubbish argument. I just tried to meet the OP on a more level playing field.
11-04-2012, 18:27
Rhyfelwyr
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
The two of you are talking at cross purposes - I've skimmed your posts but I already know the whole argument because we've had it so many times here.
I'm not going to read TR's walls of copypasta, but from what I can gather...
I think Kadagar is talking more on the practical side - that atheists generally are moral people. Whereas TR is trying to say that in doing so atheists are being logically inconsistent, as in his own less eloquent fashion he is referring to your argument that absolute morals can't exist without a universial arbiter ie God.
Although TR is frustrated because he thinks Kadagar can't see this (he may or may not), the real problem is that TR is not open to the idea of any other concepts of morality - for example that morals might not be absolute, and may just be the result of evolution. He might not regard such an idea of morality as meaningful, but it is a commonly accepted explanation for what we observe as morality. He has to accept it is a valid (if not correct) explanation.
Otherwise everyone will continue to be at cross purposes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
total realism - you are not original, you have not made some earth shattering philosophical discovery, go read Plato.
This, srsly the "Hitler was an atheist" and "Darwin an a racist sexist therefore so are all evolutionists" lines or argument are the most boring and easily refutable out there.
I'm wondering if TR is maybe a fairly recent convert, and is currently in the sort of 'cage stage' mentality. With the internet he's been exposed to a lot of ideas that seem new to be really new and exciting but in fact to us it's flogging a horse that died long ago. I think I went through the same process myself. Sorry to sound condescending, and I could be miles off, but that's what it feels like...
11-04-2012, 18:50
Ironside
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by total relism
King David, what I think your referring to is he could not build the temple, as he had to much blood on his hands.
Jesus
Not sure what if true would have to do with anything? I studies Ruth I have no idea what your talking about, neither does Deuteronomy passages say anything on it.
Great granny Ruth (to David) was a Moabite and it's less than 10 generations in between. Jesus is supposed to be a decendant from David. Moab was the child/grandchild of Lot. Since there's quite a few generations between and God is lacking a bit of people (due to wiping them out from time to time) it's mostly for fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by total relism
Homosexuality is condemned in OT, i agree 100%, not sure why that is a "contradiction" in any way. I keep 100% of OT, but I think you misunderstand alittle here and would be glad to clarify. Much of OT applies only for time,space,certain peoples. Just one example, when god told noah to build a big boat, that does not mean me as a believer should today.
Yes, and the interpretations on this aren't absolute. That is a bit of problem when talking about moral absolutes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by total relism
God is horible
Genocide, generational punishments,mind control, etc. I would love to disuse these all with you, you bring up all the topics of a atheist book. I will ask you hold on the "genocide" conquest of cannan. That being my favorite, I wish to do a thread of its own, as i do with twc and other forums.That is my favorite, because atheist are so sure of what they have been told and the few passages they quotes that certainly seem to support there claim. That filling in the rest really lets them down, I love that part. The other two bring up exsaples I would love to tell you from bible what is meant, and exspalin the passages for you.
The atheist book you mentioned I've read is called the Bible. I'm guessing you're familiar with that one. Notions of genocide: The flood, (duh), Sodom and Gomorra, active threat (plague) on the Jews for deviation of faith (Jews saved by active murder showing devotion to God) and the following retaliation which Moses ups (to cultural genocide, only virgins left) from what the original commanders did (and they were quite brutal).
Quote:
Originally Posted by total relism
Hell I will answer now Generational curse This applies if the following generation continues in the sin of the fathers, saying they too will be punished, when they dont, they are not punished.
Deut 23:1 is specific in that the punishment are on the children and their decendants and not the sinning parents. God took a very long time to forgive the original sin so it's not like it's a unique occurence. Besides, that's a quite suspect interpretation (as in: don't like the original one, let's make up one that sounds better, but is much less based on what's written). Unless there was some bizarre idea that is your parents sinned, you're immune to that sin (say that your father was a thief leads to that you can steal without any problem), there's no need to specify that it only applies if they continue the sins of thier ancestors.
The 10 generations are a nice show that the person isn't familiar to population demographics. The 2 parents, 4 grandparents, etc, etc. gives 2^10-1=1023 couples that might have cheated. With 1% cheating ratio (that's a very low count), only about 3 out of 100.000 fullfills that demand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by total relism
Harden heart
For example pharaoh harded his heart many times first, than later god "streghtend" or "harden" his heart. He gave him strength to do what his heart wanted, lateer he did same thing again chasing after isreal himself.
The Bible never states the original opinion of the Pharao. Besides, even with this interpretation, God still actively searches a confrontation which will result in the punishment of the Egyptians. That is cruel and a show off display of destructive powers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by total relism
The bible is against slavery [punsiable by death in OT]. But overall I agree with your atheist morality, majority opinion as I said on OP. The reason in part slavery was so popular was because darwin taught people that blacks were not fully human, so its not slavery.
The origin of species came out 1859, the US civil war started 1861 (a definite stop to slave import in the US). No, slavery was not popular because of the idea of evolution. Examples of justifications of slavery were that they were decendants of Ham, making it Gods (well Noahs) will to have those in eternal slavery. Alternativly God created man several times before he got it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by total relism
But notice you reject god because you think he is immoral [I disagree fully, though if I thought of him as you do i would agree genocide etc] yet realize there is no such thing as morality or absolute morals. No such thing as murder being wrong or rape etc just what some decide on. That makes your argument baseless against god, as it demands certain things to be absolutely wrong [genocide].
There are no absolute morals. Now, Christianity haven't been very big on it (rather the opposite), but human sacrifice are an example on where murder become virtous, through religion. I'm not knowing any examples, but I'm quite certain that rape has been sanctified in the same way more than once.
Morality on the other hand exists. Even if it is "only" impulses in our brains and an agreement between a group of people. Now such an agreement is quite powerful, since it contains enforcement and the abillity to reject those who doesn't agree. The club is society so to speak. That is a stronger motivator than an arbiter for absolute moralities.
11-04-2012, 18:55
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Rhyf, :2thumbsup:
TR, can you respect a world view where morals are not absolute?
Can you also respect a world view looking at the Christian writings, thinking they are horribly amoral?
On rape:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
“So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
“The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.’” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.” – Judges 21:10-24
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“They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.” – Numbers 31:7-18
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“As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.” - Deuteronomy 20:10-14
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“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.” - Deuteronomy 22:28-29
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“If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.” - Deuteronomy 22:23-24
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“Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’
“Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.” - 2 Samuel 12:11-14
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“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.”- Deuteronomy 21:10-14
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“They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.” Judges 5:30
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“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.” - Exodus 21:7-11
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“Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. - Zechariah 14:1-2
On slavery:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.” - Leviticus 25:44-46
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“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.” - Exodus 21:2-6
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“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. - Exodus 21:7-11
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“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.” - Exodus 21:20-21
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“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.” - Ephesians 6:5
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“Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.” - 1 Timothy 6:1-2
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“The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” - Luke 12:47-48
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“Let as many slaves as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.” – 1 Timothy 6:1
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“Exhort slaves to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.” – Titus 2:9-10
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“Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.” – 1 Peter 2:18
I took the examples from a webpage that also held this wonderful little tidbit of thinking:
"Here’s a clue that should be obvious to anyone with an IQ over 70: If you have to spend any time explaining why the horrible stuff stated in plain and clear terms in your holy book is wrong by re-explaining it in complicated and enigmatic ways before you can get to the ‘good stuff,’ your holy book needs to be scrapped because, in the wrong hands, it can be lethal. It often is."
EDIT: PVC, I actually stopped drinking completely for the time being... After a otherwise great summer I can use my liver to check my pulse, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Am soon moving back to the alps again, will be tricky there. Oh well, at least SFTS will be happy being able to condescend me for being ski instructor again ;)
11-04-2012, 21:33
Brenus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
C'mom, guys: We speak of the morality of a God asking a father to kill his son. And I still don't know who is the worst: The God asking or the father ready to do it?
So, "Total Realism", your Monotheistic moral, you can keep it.
And Hitler was a Christian as he was baptised. He never said he wasn't. His soldiers were it on their buckles (God is with Us), and swear an oath to him (difficult for atheists). And, funny enough, even if he wasn't not, his soldiers who executed his orders were (can't blame the Jews on this one).
11-04-2012, 22:37
Ronin
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
C'mom, guys: We speak of the morality of a God asking a father to kill his son. And I still don't know who is the worst: The God asking or the father ready to do it?
So, "Total Realism", your Monotheistic moral, you can keep it.
And Hitler was a Christian as he was baptised. He never said he wasn't. His soldiers were it on their buckles (God is with Us), and swear an oath to him (difficult for atheists). And, funny enough, even if he wasn't not, his soldiers who executed his orders were (can't blame the Jews on this one).
where I´m from we have a name for people that hear voices telling them to kill people...
and the "Hitler was a atheist!!!" is an usual straw man argument the religious people try to bring up in arguments with atheists....it's false and this is easily provable.
but even if he was an atheist, this would only be a "mirror" for religious atrocity if his crimes had been done in the name of atheism, like so many have done for religion over the years.
11-04-2012, 23:05
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
This, srsly the "Hitler was an atheist" and "Darwin an a racist sexist therefore so are all evolutionists" lines or argument are the most boring and easily refutable out there.
I'm wondering if TR is maybe a fairly recent convert, and is currently in the sort of 'cage stage' mentality. With the internet he's been exposed to a lot of ideas that seem new to be really new and exciting but in fact to us it's flogging a horse that died long ago. I think I went through the same process myself. Sorry to sound condescending, and I could be miles off, but that's what it feels like...
I feel old.
Also - yes I think all converts to any religion take a while to mellow and appreciate that not everybody wants to hear about their religion all the time.
11-04-2012, 23:10
HoreTore
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
I feel old.
Also - yes I think all converts to any religion take a while to mellow and appreciate that not everybody wants to hear about their religion all the time.
That's true of most things people find to give their lives meaning, though. Religion, politics, a new hobby, job or relationship etc. We have a tendency to go all fanatical in the beginning.
11-04-2012, 23:28
Ironside
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
C'mom, guys: We speak of the morality of a God asking a father to kill his son. And I still don't know who is the worst: The God asking or the father ready to do it?
To be fair, that story can be red as rejecting the notion of human sacrifices.
It still counts as evil, just not Evil.
11-04-2012, 23:35
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
That's true of most things people find to give their lives meaning, though. Religion, politics, a new hobby, job or relationship etc. We have a tendency to go all fanatical in the beginning.
Oh, no doubt, but my God is what gives my life meaning (lacking a wife etc.), I have to remember he's awesome, but not "AWESOME!"
11-05-2012, 00:17
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Oh, no doubt, but my God is what gives my life meaning (lacking a wife etc.), I have to remember he's awesome, but not "AWESOME!"
There we go, you just need a hobby.
"Skiing saved me from God"
11-05-2012, 00:34
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
There we go, you just need a hobby.
"Skiing saved me from God"
I can already fence, ride, shoot a bow, a rifle, and play Chess.
They all seem lifeless and boring these last few years.
Before you ask - no I'm not that good at Chess, but I'm a fair shot and a reasonable horseman.
11-05-2012, 00:49
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
I can already fence, ride, shoot a bow, a rifle, and play Chess.
They all seem lifeless and boring these last few years.
Before you ask - no I'm not that good at Chess, but I'm a fair shot and a reasonable horseman.
So, we need to get you off the girlie activities and into manly stuff, then...
11-05-2012, 00:56
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
So, we need to get you off the girlie activities and into manly stuff, then...
You mean like knife throwing?
Or are we talking really manly... axe throwing?
11-05-2012, 01:20
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
You mean like knife throwing?
Or are we talking really manly... axe throwing?
Just joking, those activities actually seem very well rounded, and generally part of a classic education. However, if you look at it, there is no big adrenaline kicks in any of them... So IF you are actually tired of it, why don't you do something with an element of danger in it (horse riding seems like the most "dangerous" thing on that list).
Throwing yourself out of a plane,as an example, is bound to take some time before it gets boring.
11-05-2012, 01:39
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Just joking, those activities actually seem very well rounded, and generally part of a classic education. However, if you look at it, there is no big adrenaline kicks in any of them... So IF you are actually tired of it, why don't you do something with an element of danger in it (horse riding seems like the most "dangerous" thing on that list).
Throwing yourself out of a plane,as an example, is bound to take some time before it gets boring.
Various things have stopped or deterred me from all three.
The fencing - bad ankle, I can't bounce on it and damage to my back hip has taken a lot of the explosive power out of my lunge, my bladework on foil is limited by the difficulties with footwork
Horseriding - I'm allergic to the mites in the hay and also to a lesser extent in the horses coats - so anti-hystermines are essential now, which puts a damper on just enjoying it.
Shooting - bad eyes, need new glasses.
That last one I can actually fix, and I'm working on general fitness to try to improve the hip and ankle so I can maybe fence recreationally.
Oh, yeah, I'm also a strong swimmer (looking for a pool in Exeter right now to get back into that) and I can handle a boat.
Actually, thinking about it, I'm passably good (or at least unembarrassing) at quite a few things.
Skiing has actually always appealed, but that's courting death a bit too much - between the dodgy depth perception, the lopsidedness, and the bad ankle I'm pretty sure I'd fall off the mountain rather than whiz down it.
You know what gets to me though - climbing is a real in thing right now, especially among young women, and it has always engendered crippling terror in me.
That really gets to me, it really does.
11-05-2012, 01:44
Rhyfelwyr
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
PVC you sound like you are 75, I thought I was bad! :laugh4:
Having said that I'm still having to kneel as I type this (gah!).
But yeah, I think you guys might be onto something, can't say anything else gives my life meaning besides God.
Only hobby I've got is lifting, which I can't do right now. Although at least there is some adrenaline-inducing danger in my life, that comes from walking up my street.
11-05-2012, 01:45
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Various things have stopped or deterred me from all three.
The fencing - bad ankle, I can't bounce on it and damage to my back hip has taken a lot of the explosive power out of my lunge, my bladework on foil is limited by the difficulties with footwork
Horseriding - I'm allergic to the mites in the hay and also to a lesser extent in the horses coats - so anti-hystermines are essential now, which puts a damper on just enjoying it.
Shooting - bad eyes, need new glasses.
That last one I can actually fix, and I'm working on general fitness to try to improve the hip and ankle so I can maybe fence recreationally.
Oh, yeah, I'm also a strong swimmer (looking for a pool in Exeter right now to get back into that) and I can handle a boat.
Actually, thinking about it, I'm passably good (or at least unembarrassing) at quite a few things.
Skiing has actually always appealed, but that's courting death a bit too much - between the dodgy depth perception, the lopsidedness, and the bad ankle I'm pretty sure I'd fall off the mountain rather than whiz down it.
You know what gets to me though - climbing is a real in thing right now, especially among young women, and it has always engendered crippling terror in me.
That really gets to me, it really does.
So give it a shot!
Climbing is great, specially since you REALLY can climb things on your own level these days. Back when I started there were no cool indoor training halls and stuff... Just a mountain and if my dad had his back turned a good rope.
11-05-2012, 01:50
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
So give it a shot!
Climbing is great, specially since you REALLY can climb things on your own level these days. Back when I started there were no cool indoor training halls and stuff... Just a mountain and if my dad had his back turned a good rope.
I gave it a shot several times as a teenager, when I say "crippling fear" I bloody well mean it.
I once had to be almost pried off the training wall.
Can't afford those fancy new training halls anyway.
11-05-2012, 01:54
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Kathy Stuart
So she takes this little bit of arsenic. But apparently it was enough to make her violently ill, and for a week, every time she ate, she vomited. But it wasn't enough to make her think that she was now going to die.
Ira Glass
So she never goes to the priest. Figuring out the proper dosage, she testifies later, is just a vexing problem that she doesn't know how to solve. And she gives up that plan, which brings her to a much more disturbing plan. She decides to do something that, to us, to our modern sensibility, is so much worse than killing yourself. From our point of view, she decides to do one of the worst things a person could possibly do.
Kathy Stuart
She decides, I'm going to murder a child.
Ira Glass
That's right. She's going to murder a child to help herself get into Heaven. And incredibly, Kathy Stuart says this was a common strategy around that time for people who wanted to kill themselves. She came across a case like this and then went looking for others like it. And now she has found around 300, most of them women.
Kathy Stuart
These people don't want to go to Hell. So the option that they choose is to commit a capital crime. Immediately upon committing the crime, they run to the court. They confess what they have done, and they essentially demand their own execution.
Ira Glass
So they demand execution knowing that before they go to the gallows, they will have a chance to confess. And if they're truly repentant, they'll go to Heaven. And why kill a child?
Kathy Stuart
They kill a child because the child is seen as being in a state of innocence. So you might possibly be doing the child a favor, because the child will also go to Heaven. You will go to Heaven. It's kind of a win-win situation. There's a happy ending for all.
Yes CR, but they can't have been REAL Christians, because real Christians don't murder children.
This goes back to what I wrote about the Bible though.... The problem isn't that there isn't good stuff in it, there is. The problem is that you need quite some mental wriggling to skip by the less pleasant episodes of the Bible. And when writing a holy book, you should bear in mind that it WILL in the end be interpreted by some guy, living in a basement, eating road kills, having the Bible and Guns & Ammo as only literature around.
PVC, afraid of heights or was it something else? How about mountainbiking?
11-05-2012, 02:13
Rhyfelwyr
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
And when writing a holy book, you should bear in mind that it WILL in the end be interpreted by some guy, living in a basement, eating road kills, having the Bible and Guns & Ammo as only literature around.
Thought about that, but couldn't find any sources.
Another example is when adultery (and its out of wedlock child) was brutally punished in public (as the rules of the OT demands), peaking in the late seventeenth century in Sweden. That's the origin for the lesser punishments for mothers doing infanticide, at least here.
11-05-2012, 10:00
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
My oh my...
I don't think much progress will be made here.
I agree, until you realize what the Op is about, no progress can be made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spankythehippo
I think you missed the point, my post says nothing in regard to the OP. Please be mindful that the OP is not the benchmark for a discussion. It merely gets the ball rolling. Imagine living a life where you had to adhere to the same style of thinking for 2000 years. Gah, I shudder at the thought. Exactly what you are doing with every post, alluding to the OP.
Also, I'm pretty sure we had an excellent discussion about pubic hair on a thread about Nazi's. Goes to show the dynamic nature of the Backroom.
I am sorry, I figured it was a response to op. Many have missed what I am saying in op, and understood it as what your seemed response was. I guess I have diffident opinions on what op should be, I thought discussion should be based on op. Than if someone want new discussion, they should start new thread. Imagine living in a time were morality has no base to stand on, such as atheistic morality. There is no god, yet we have to follow certain rules. Dont rape, dont kill, dont steal etc why follow any of them? because other evolved animals,evolved dirt that have no right to control me decide I should. But of course its ok to kill millions of innocent babies through abortion, ancient child sacrifice anyone?. But also, the government tells me one morality, Hollywood another,media another,teachers another, parents another,church another. Who is right? I say no one. why listen to random chemical reactions [peoples brains. evolved dirt] tell me what is "right" and "wrong". No I agree with jefery dahmer on this one.
"if it all happens naturalistic whats the need for a god? cant I set my own rules? who owns me? I own myself".
Jefery dahmer DVD documentary Jeffrey Dahmer the monster within
Imagine that world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
You don't get it... You need to counter his arguments with the other sides arguments as he has presented them in the OP. Doh!
Because that is how debates work. :wall:
Is it not, so you have not been responding to op on purpose?. That exspalins alot.That is all I care to talk on, I dont care what morals or reasons for morals atheist have. I only care to show how inconstant,.baseless,illogical it is, for them to have morals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I agree with Kadagar that there is a foundation for morals in an atheist society. Human beings, religious or not, naturally empathize with others. And even morals could be based on a society's need to survive and compete, in evolutionary terms. I.e. do not harm others, work together, etc.
What foundation than? survival of the fittest? Than you cannot reject hitlers morality,darwins, or my own favorite.
You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out,
why not as men are stronger lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?.
Hitler was going for survival of fittest, killing off weaker races people. He was helping evolution and survival of the fittest. If you do no harm to others, than you allow weak to survive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
total realism - you are not original, you have not made some earth shattering philosophical discovery, go read Plato.
Kadagar - go have a beer and don't worry about it. Aftr the beer, it may make more sense.
I never claimed to be original. this has been pointed out for decades in america in debate etc. If it goes back to plato, than I guess much longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Of course it's a rubbish argument. I just tried to meet the OP on a more level playing field.
The argument is not rubbish at all, you have misunderstood it, so no surprise you see it as rubbish. My playing field is the point I made the thread on my OP. You want to create a new field [are atheist moral, why do they have morals etc] create a new field [thread]. As other posters are saying, you have missed the point.
11-05-2012, 10:03
HoreTore
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Children are killed all over the world. Christians make up a hefty percentage of the world. Thus, it's unaviodable that christians also kill children.
Saying that christians kill children because of their religion, however, is quite a stretch. Even the example above should probably be explained by mental disorders. That the killer was christian gave the murder a christian flavour, but that does not equal christianity being the cause of the murder.
Anyhoo, back to the interesting stuff: what gives life meaning? I find that drinking gives life plenty of meaning. Because of this saturday, I have a forehead covered in blood and cuts with a bump worthy of Donald Duck. I can't wait for the lunchtime storytelling today!
Now that's meaningful.
11-05-2012, 11:10
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
I'm not going to read TR's walls of copypasta, but from what I can gather...
I think Kadagar is talking more on the practical side - that atheists generally are moral people. Whereas TR is trying to say that in doing so atheists are being logically inconsistent, as in his own less eloquent fashion he is referring to your argument that absolute morals can't exist without a universial arbiter ie God.
Although TR is frustrated because he thinks Kadagar can't see this (he may or may not), the real problem is that TRis not open to the idea of any other concepts of morality - for example that morals might not be absolute, and may just be the result of evolution. He might not regard such an idea of morality as meaningful, but it is a commonly accepted explanation for what we observe as morality. He has to accept it is a valid (if not correct) explanation.
Otherwise everyone will continue to be at cross purposes.
This, srsly the "Hitler was an atheist" and "Darwin an a racist sexist therefore so are all evolutionists" lines or argument are the most boring and easily refutable out there.
I'm wondering if TR is maybe a fairly recent convert, and is currently in the sort of 'cage stage' mentality. With the internet he's been exposed to a lot of ideas that seem new to be really new and exciting but in fact to us it's flogging a horse that died long ago. I think I went through the same process myself. Sorry to sound condescending, and I could be miles off, but that's what it feels like...
Thank you for first part, that hits it perfect. As I said first line, I am not saying that atheist are not moral or have no morals, I am saying that if they claim there are such things as moral or "right" and "wrong" killing is "bad" rape is "bad" etc They are being inconstant with atheism. They have no right to say what hitler did was "bad". I am fully aware that some believe morals are the result of evolution, that is what have my post have been on. That is what I have been using showing that when they claim absolute morals, something is "wrong" rape,murder etc they are being inconstant. For example.
I was saying that the belief or feeling that atheist get [if atheism is true] that murder,rape,sexism etc are wrong, is nothing more than random chemical reactions in there brain. They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.
You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out, you would be doing the opposite of evolution and what got us here to follow christian morals and to act like people have unalienable rights, and value.These are biblical ideas that people were created in the image of god.,
But as atheist why would you allow woman to have rights? what makes you think they deserve them? they are just random matter, why not as men are stronger lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?. You act like they have value and right etc but this only comes if they are given these right or have unalienable right, such as if they were created in the image of god.
and my Op spells out atheistic morality.
I do not need to accept atheistic morality, I never would. Just because you think I should because others do is a moral argument itself,baseless.But it shows perfectly that the only morals atheist can have is based on majority opinion. So hitler was morally correct in germany in the early 1940's. That was the majority opinion, so therefore correct. Why would I ever accept, some random chemicals evolve dirt, telling me what I can and cant do. the government tells me one morality, Hollywood another,media another,teachers another, parents another,church another. Who is right? I say no one. why listen to random chemical reactions [peoples brains. evolved dirt] tell me what is "right" and "wrong". No I agree with jefery dahmer on this one.
"if it all happens naturalistic whats the need for a god? cant I set my own rules? who owns me? I own myself".
Jefery dahmer DVD documentary Jeffrey Dahmer the monster within
So if I decide that murdering millions of innocent children [abortion] is ok than we can. Or caging woman in my basement forcing them to have sex with me is also ok if I like it.
Hitler
I have no idea what your saying here, showing clearly you did not read about hitler, what I said was, as hitlers quotes show, he was following evolution, it was because atheism/evolution he did what he did. No athist has any right to say what he did was wrong. After all in germany in 1940's as you said "but it is a commonly accepted explanation for what we observe as morality. He has to accept it is a valid" so therefore it must be accepted by your own grounds. Showing the absurdity of atheistic morality based on majority opinion, just what you admitted to and are proposing.
I like your asumtions on my "new" faith or debating online. I assure you ask my name on twc all the atheist will know me. I have debated years over there, many thread, in fact have no less than 4 other debate thread going on outside of the org right now. The fact you misunderstand me and guess these things, makes me think you jump the gun a little pit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
Great granny Ruth (to David) was a Moabite and it's less than 10 generations in between. Jesus is supposed to be a decendant from David. Moab was the child/grandchild of Lot. Since there's quite a few generations between and God is lacking a bit of people (due to wiping them out from time to time) it's mostly for fun.
Yes, and the interpretations on this aren't absolute. That is a bit of problem when talking about moral absolutes.
The atheist book you mentioned I've read is called the Bible. I'm guessing you're familiar with that one. Notions of genocide: The flood, (duh), Sodom and Gomorra, active threat (plague) on the Jews for deviation of faith (Jews saved by active murder showing devotion to God) and the following retaliation which Moses ups (to cultural genocide, only virgins left) from what the original commanders did (and they were quite brutal).
Deut 23:1 is specific in that the punishment are on the children and their decendants and not the sinning parents. God took a very long time to forgive the original sin so it's not like it's a unique occurence. Besides, that's a quite suspect interpretation (as in: don't like the original one, let's make up one that sounds better, but is much less based on what's written). Unless there was some bizarre idea that is your parents sinned, you're immune to that sin (say that your father was a thief leads to that you can steal without any problem), there's no need to specify that it only applies if they continue the sins of thier ancestors.
The 10 generations are a nice show that the person isn't familiar to population demographics. The 2 parents, 4 grandparents, etc, etc. gives 2^10-1=1023 couples that might have cheated. With 1% cheating ratio (that's a very low count), only about 3 out of 100.000 fullfills that demand.
The Bible never states the original opinion of the Pharao. Besides, even with this interpretation, God still actively searches a confrontation which will result in the punishment of the Egyptians. That is cruel and a show off display of destructive powers.
The origin of species came out 1859, the US civil war started 1861 (a definite stop to slave import in the US). No, slavery was not popular because of the idea of evolution. Examples of justifications of slavery were that they were decendants of Ham, making it Gods (well Noahs) will to have those in eternal slavery. Alternativly God created man several times before he got it right.
There are no absolute morals. Now, Christianity haven't been very big on it (rather the opposite), but human sacrifice are an example on where murder become virtous, through religion. I'm not knowing any examples, but I'm quite certain that rape has been sanctified in the same way more than once.
Morality on the other hand exists. Even if it is "only" impulses in our brains and an agreement between a group of people. Now such an agreement is quite powerful, since it contains enforcement and the abillity to reject those who doesn't agree. The club is society so to speak. That is a stronger motivator than an arbiter for absolute moralities.
First part I have no idea what your saying, why do you believe that, what ever your trying to say is a problem for the bible?. Does it have to do with the 10 generations? moabites cant enter?
Moabites cant enter assembly of god?
Ruth was moabite book of ruth.
God loves the foreign resident and Israel is commanded to do the same
Deuteronomy 10.18-19
It is not based on ethnicity,but religion. moab was cananite.
I disagree fully, homosexuality is clearly wrong, according to the bible.
lol nice, I was just saying all the athiet usually bring up in order the ones you did. I agree though god judges, please bring all these up with genocide/plagues. You truly are bringing up all my favs, though the golden calf is very hard to understand. But the claims of genocide are false, and the circumstances around these show them not to be evil, but loving. Sounds crazy, wait for post. You just need to read entire bible. In fact I would reject a god that did not do what he did., time will show. I guess i will have to do a major objections to bible as I did on twc, plagues,conquest of canon,how can god send people to hell etc. But great topic's, now im all existed.
I am not seeing it here at all, also this does not mean they cant worship etc, they just cant go in temple [few could] only levites could.
[a]No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the Lord.
v1 23
This has to do with no defects etc, it is teaching of sinless of messiah, without defect, as all temple worship was. God forgives sin right away all the time, he did forgive adam and eve, he promised messiah right there gen 3.15. It took awhile for the messiah to carry out the full forgiveness. Notice god provided there coverings after gen 3.21. But are you claiming than no one was forgiven in OT?. I am sorry but had you read the bible, you would now that it is clearly if the child follows in sins of father.
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Deut. 24:16
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
Ezekiel 18:20
A key to understanding this business is a concept called vicarious punishment that is found in the law codes of the ANE. Greenberg [Chr.SPPS, 295] offers these examples:
A creditor who has maltreated the distrained sin of his debtor that he dies, must lose his own son. If a man struck the pregnant daughter of another so that she miscarried and died, his own daughter must be put to death. A seducer must deliver his wife to the seduced girl's father for prostitution. In another class are penalties which involve the substitution of a dependent for the offerer -- the Hittite laws compelling a slayer to deliver so many persons to the kinsmen of the slain, or prescribing that a man who has pushed another into a fire must give over his son...
Now it is precisely this kind of punishment, which was prescribed in every law code in the Near East, that Deut. 24:16 is intended to forbid. The verse is not a universal motto, but a time-specific law intended as a direct counter to the practices listed above. "The proper understanding of this requires...that it be recognized as a judicial provision, not a theological dictum." [Chr.SPPS, 296, 298] This does not mean sins of a father will not effect his children.
You claim to have read bible, but I gota say, your theology and claims, fit the bill of a atheist book not the bible.
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.
exodus 8.15
31 and the Lord did what Moses asked. The flies left Pharaoh and his officials and his people; not a fly remained. 32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.
exodus 8.31
7 Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go
evodus 9.7
Ex 9:11-12 “And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses
God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and we are also told that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (4 times). Both statements are true and do not contradict each other. There was no hope of convincing or converting Pharaoh so his heart would be hardened by God (6 times, 10 times in all). God did not allow him to change his mind and was given no room to do anything else but what his own sinful heart dictated.
Notice that in a very real sense, all four of the following statements are true: (1) God hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (2) Moses hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (3) the words that Moses spoke hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (4) Pharaoh hardened his own heart. All four of these observations are accurate, depicting the same truth from different perspectives. In this sense, God is responsible for everything in the Universe, i.e., He has provided the occasion, the circumstances, and the environment in which all things (including people) operate. But He is not guilty of wrong in so doing. From a quick look at a simple Hebrew idiom, it is clear that God did not unjustly or directly harden Pharaoh’s heart. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), He does not act unjustly (Psalms 33:5), and He has always allowed humans to exercise their free moral agency (Deuteronomy 30:19). God, however, does use the wrong, stubborn decisions committed by rebellious sinners to further His causes (Isaiah 10:5-11). In the case of Pharaoh’s hardened heart, God can be charged with no injustice, and the Bible can be charged with no contradiction. Humans were created with free moral agency and are culpable for their own actions. http://www.apologeticspress.org/apco...1&article=1205
God uses pharaohs heart, to show egypt and pharaoh that he was the one true god, that the nile,cows,flies etc were not gods, but he alone. It worked to, as many egptians left and joined isreal.
"Then the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides children. A mixed multitude went up with them also."
exodus 12 37-38.
they were grafted into isreal.
I have no idea were you get this from? eternal slavery idea. Or the idea god created men at diffident times. Please with your great knowledge of bible you have shown, provide evidence from bible.
I have no idea what your saying, first you claim there are no moral absolutes, I have to ask are you absolutely sure?
than if there are no moral absolutes, how can you say child sacrifice is wrong?. Or it is ok to kill them?. Than something about rape being ok to the bible? The bible says rape is oviusly wrong, could be punished with death in OT.
Than claim morality does exist, do you not see how many times you contradict yourself in a few sentences?. So you cant object to god as being bad, also please bring your thoughts over here. I just put in long response to this same claim on majority opinion and morality.
well above a few posts.
11-05-2012, 11:23
HoreTore
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
I just love how "atheism" is given a set of attributes, and the notion that one "has to do x" because of "atheist beliefs"(now that's a contradicting term!).
11-05-2012, 11:31
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
TR, if you spent as much time taking in what people answer you, as you do surfing christian webpages, I think you would reach much further mentally.
You seem to repeat your own line of thinking no matter what arguments you are met by, that is what I meant when I wrote that I see no chance for progress here.
There are two sides of a debate. You are supposed to make your case, you do a great job at that BTW mate. However, you are also supposed to really try and understand what the people around you say and why.
I am afraid that your way of arguing comes off as rather childish at this point. Kind of like a child with a megaphone, putting his hands to his ears going "lalala" while catching his breath between his tirades.
11-05-2012, 11:32
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
I feel old.
Also - yes I think all converts to any religion take a while to mellow and appreciate that not everybody wants to hear about their religion all the time.
why do people think I am new? I now people dont like what I say, wait till I do creation vs evolution. But you guys have been pretty nice,mature etc compared to most I debate with. When people hate me dont want to hear what I am saying, I think I am on to something good.
18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
john 15 18-19
also what makes you think christian want to hear your opinion on new christian converts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
where I´m from we have a name for people that hear voices telling them to kill people...
and the "Hitler was a atheist!!!" is an usual straw man argument the religious people try to bring up in arguments with atheists....it's false and this is easily provable.
but even if he was an atheist, this would only be a "mirror" for religious atrocity if his crimes had been done in the name of atheism, like so many have done for religion over the years.
Please prove, read this very post hitler says he was atheist, no one said atheist must be like hitler, just they cant say what he did was "wrong".
‘Crimes of religion’?
Many atheists point to the Crusades, Inquisition and witch hunts to argue that Christianity is an evil religion. D’Souza takes on these allegations one by one. He argues that the Muslims were the aggressors; conquering the previously predominately Christian Middle East. They went on to conquer parts of Africa, Asia, part of Italy and most of Spain. All the while, they forced conversions at sword-point. Finally, more than two hundred years later Christians attempted to take back the land that was conquered by the Muslims. The First Crusade was a success, resulting in Jerusalem being in Christian possession for nearly a century. Subsequent crusades failed, but without the crusades, D’Souza argues
‘Western Civilization might have been completely overrun by the forces of Islam … The Christians fought to defend themselves from foreign conquest, while the Muslims fought to continue conquering Christian lands’
(p. 206).
Even adjusting for changes in population size, atheist regimes are responsible for 100 times more death in one century than Christian rulers inflicted over five centuries.
As for the Inquisition, much of the modern stereotype was largely made up by Spain’s political enemies, and later by anti-Christians. The Inquisition only had authority over professing Christians, and the Inquisition trials were often fairer and more lenient than their secular counterparts. Often the only penalty given was some sort of penance such as fasting. Over a period of 350 years, historians such as Henry Kamen15 estimate only between 1,500 and 4,000 people were executed for heresy.
The Salem witch trials constitute the best-known example of religiously motivated violence. However, fewer than 25 people were killed in the trials, falling far short of the ‘perhaps hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions’ (p. 207) that the late antitheist Carl Sagan wrote about.
Having shown that Christianity’s ‘religious crimes’ are far less horrendous than atheists would argue; he goes on to show that atheism, not religion, is responsible for mass murders. In fact, ‘atheist regimes have in a single century murdered more than one hundred million people’ (p. 214). Even adjusting for changes in population size, atheist regimes are responsible for 100 times more death in one century than Christian rulers inflicted over five centuries. However, while it can easily be shown that crimes committed in the name of Christianity are not sanctioned by its teaching, the bloodbaths of the atheist regimes are consistent with an atheist, evolutionary outlook. Indeed, atheists have no moral basis to say that anything is right or wrong
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the Salem which trial was stopped by 2 priest that said what they were doing was unbiblical http://tektonics.org/qt/spaninq.html inquisitions
Muslim Turks made passage to holy lands for Christians very dangerous years before crusade.
atheist governments killings morality etc
77 million in Communist China, 62 million in the Soviet Gulag State, 21 million non-battle killings by the Nazis, 2 million murdered in the Khmer Rouge killing fields (see also Rummel, R.J., Death by Government, New Brunswick, N.J.: Transaction Publishers, 1994).
‘The five major religions of the world, in order of their appearance on the scene, are Hinduism, traditional Chinese folk religion, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam. These five religions have approximately 4.85 billion adherents, representing an estimated 71.3 percent of the world’s population in 2007, and they have been around for a collective 11,600 years. During the vast majority of those 116 [collective] centuries, the world has not been in any danger of extinction from weapons of any kind, nor has the human race been in serious danger of dying out from pollution, global warming, overpopulation, or anything else. …
‘Modern science has only been around for the last 350 years, if we date the scientific method back to the man known as the Father of Science, Galileo Galilei. One could push the date back considerably, if one wished, to Aristotle and Archimedes, or forward to Newton and the Age of Enlightenment, but regardless, the dire threat to Mankind described by [“New Atheist” Sam] Harris only dates back to the middle of the twentieth century. In the last sixty years, science has produced a veritable witches’ brew of potential dangers to the human race, ranging from atom-shattering, explosive devices to lethal genetic modifications, designer diseases, large quantities of radioactive waste and even, supposedly, the accidental production of mini black holes and strangelets through particle collider experiments.
‘So, in only 3 percent of the time that religion has been on the scene, science has managed to produce multiple threats to continued human existence. Moreover, the quantity and lethal quality of those threats appear to be accelerating, as the bulk of them have appeared in the most recent sixth of the scientific era.2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
C'mom, guys: We speak of the morality of a God asking a father to kill his son. And I still don't know who is the worst: The God asking or the father ready to do it?
So, "Total Realism", your Monotheistic moral, you can keep it.
And Hitler was a Christian as he was baptised. He never said he wasn't. His soldiers were it on their buckles (God is with Us), and swear an oath to him (difficult for atheists). And, funny enough, even if he wasn't not, his soldiers who executed his orders were (can't blame the Jews on this one).
Abraham? you do realize both Abraham and god new his son was not going to be sacrafised correct? oh the atheist did not tell you that one. Question as athsit, on what grounds would you say child sacrifice is wrong?.
Hitler, not sure if your aware, hitler hated christianity, as did all nazies, they were not compatible as Hitler said. So neither hitler or his men were christian. swearing oath to hitler? what does that have to do with being christian? Please provide evidence for god is with us on his belt buckle. i am sure you are telling truth on this one, no i am just kidding.
look who blames stuff on the jew, hitler blames christian on the jew.
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold it ." (p 278)
From "Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944", published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc. first edition, 1953, The book was published in Britain under the title, "Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944", which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
Hitler was all about evolution, atheism,natural selection, nature's law.
“ He who does not wish to fight in this world, where permanent struggle is the law of life, has not the right to exist”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p266 2003
“The stronger must dominate and not mate with the weaker, which would signify the sacrafice of its own higher nature. Only the born weakling can look upon this principle as cruel,and if he does so it is mearly because he is of a feebler nature and narrower mind for if such a law did not direct the process of evolution
then the higher development of organic life would not be conceivable at all”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p262 2003
“if nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one. Because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being may thus be rendered futile.”
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p263 2003
Hitler--> "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness....”(A. Speer, Inside the Third Reich, pp. 142-143)
As I pointed out before with darwin quotes my point was why not be racist sexist if evolution is true? You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong" in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out, you would be doing the opposite of evolution and what got us here to follow christian morals and to act like people have unalienable rights, and value.These are biblical ideas that people were created in the image of god.,
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
That's true of most things people find to give their lives meaning, though. Religion, politics, a new hobby, job or relationship etc. We have a tendency to go all fanatical in the beginning.
why do people think I am new? I now people dont like what I say, wait till I do creation vs evolution. But you guys have been pretty nice,mature etc compared to most I debate with. When people hate me dont want to hear what I am saying, I think I am on to something good.
18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
john 15 18-19
11-05-2012, 11:44
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Yes CR, but they can't have been REAL Christians, because real Christians don't murder children.
Well - if a Christian is one who keeps faith with Christ, then someone who kills children isn't keeping faith. Is he?
Quote:
This goes back to what I wrote about the Bible though.... The problem isn't that there isn't good stuff in it, there is. The problem is that you need quite some mental wriggling to skip by the less pleasant episodes of the Bible. And when writing a holy book, you should bear in mind that it WILL in the end be interpreted by some guy, living in a basement, eating road kills, having the Bible and Guns & Ammo as only literature around.
You must have been reading my posts - I've been saying basically this for years.
Quote:
PVC, afraid of heights or was it something else? How about mountainbiking?
I have quite bad balance, I favour my left side very strongly - I'm actually diagnosed with "Minimal Cerebral Palsy" - I even have the dent in the right side of my skull. Anyway - bike riding doesn't work well, I managed to get to grips with it a bit, but it's not remotely fun, I think I could ride a bike if I needed to, but I'd always rather walk.
The climbing thing - absolute terror, it's the urge to jump, or in this case undo the straps and plummet. It's difficult to explain, it's not a rational fear you can master - it's like when you're a small child and you're utterly terrified. That's not something you want to go through in a public climbing hall, especially since it only kicks in at about 8-10 feet up, then I'm frozen.
11-05-2012, 12:06
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Rhyf, :2thumbsup:
TR, can you respect a world view where morals are not absolute?
Can you also respect a world view looking at the Christian writings, thinking they are horribly amoral?
On rape:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
“So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
“The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.’” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.” – Judges 21:10-24
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“They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.” – Numbers 31:7-18
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“As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.” - Deuteronomy 20:10-14
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“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.” - Deuteronomy 22:28-29
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“If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.” - Deuteronomy 22:23-24
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“Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’
“Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.” - 2 Samuel 12:11-14
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“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.”- Deuteronomy 21:10-14
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“They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.” Judges 5:30
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“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.” - Exodus 21:7-11
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“Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. - Zechariah 14:1-2
On slavery:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.” - Leviticus 25:44-46
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“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.” - Exodus 21:2-6
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“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. - Exodus 21:7-11
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“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.” - Exodus 21:20-21
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“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.” - Ephesians 6:5
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“Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.” - 1 Timothy 6:1-2
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“The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” - Luke 12:47-48
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“Let as many slaves as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.” – 1 Timothy 6:1
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“Exhort slaves to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.” – Titus 2:9-10
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“Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.” – 1 Peter 2:18
I took the examples from a webpage that also held this wonderful little tidbit of thinking:
"Here’s a clue that should be obvious to anyone with an IQ over 70: If you have to spend any time explaining why the horrible stuff stated in plain and clear terms in your holy book is wrong by re-explaining it in complicated and enigmatic ways before you can get to the ‘good stuff,’ your holy book needs to be scrapped because, in the wrong hands, it can be lethal. It often is."
I can respect a worldview that has morals that cant base them on anything. People are inconstant with there beliefs all the time.
Now I bolded the most important stuff, before I respond I have to ask, why would rape slavery be wrong? it makes no sense in your own worldview. As I have pointed out many times. I want you to anwser, if evolution is true and atheim than
You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out,
why not? as men are stronger, lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?.
this would be both rape and slavery, yet you cannot give a logical answer assuming evolution is true that these are "wrong".
I was saying that the belief or feeling that atheist get [if atheism is true] that murder,rape,sexism etc are wrong, is nothing more than random chemical reactions in there brain. They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.
As I pointed out before with darwin quotes, my point was why not be racist sexist if evolution is true? You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out, you would be doing the opposite of evolution and what got us here to follow christian morals and to act like people have unalienable rights, and value.These are biblical ideas that people were created in the image of god.,
But as atheist why would you allow woman to have rights? what makes you think they deserve them? they are just random matter, why not as men are stronger lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?. You act like they have value and right etc but this only comes if they are given these right or have unalienable right, such as if they were created in the image of god.
So in the bolded part, it said if you have to do exspling than the bible is dangerous. Besides me seeing hitlers/darwins worldview as dangerous, as rape slavery are not "bad" in that view. Well what if I was to say you have to read the whole bible to understand. Or exspalin it in context, atheist also falsely assume that if something is in bible that means god approves of it. This is 100% false assumption,made clear by bible. That one of the passages comes from judges proves my point of this. the whole book is what happens when there is no rule, government lae,king,god etc. For exsample, look here in a 1v1 debate I have going http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=527050
he brings up much of what you do, probably same site. He and his site are very clever, to say the bible support rape, they record were kidnapped rape has happend in judges 24, yet leave out context and very last verse of chapter. As I had to point out to him.
amazing, look at your very first verse judges 24 leaves out last verse.
Let me say now, all these are taken out of context and falsely applied by your website. I would love to go through any of them with you rape/slavery. both are punishable by death in OT.so lets say you chose your top 2 from each I will respond. . One thing about the atheist he is predictable, you guys all use same passages etc that have been responded to in books like.
So slavery first
What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.
In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10
If the Those people who were very financially irresponsible, and had accumulated so much debt that they could not possibly pay it off, could request to become the slave of a wealthy individual (Leviticus 25:39; Genesis 47:19).if the wealthy individual agreed, he would pay off all the person’s debts and provide for him, and then the servant would work for the individual for some period of time apparently proportional to the amount of debt (Leviticus 25:50) but not to exceed seven years (Exodus 21:2; Deuteronomy 15:12). When the period of time had expired, the servant was set free, and the wealthy person was required to give him enough start up supplies so that he could begin his own business (Deuteronomy 15:13-14). The Israelite slave was to be treated respectfully (Leviticus 25:43) and was immediately granted freedom if mistreated (Exodus 21:26–27).
It’s really a very generous system. Help a financially irresponsible person to become responsible by (1) paying off his debts and providing for him, (2) training him by having him work for a period of time, (3) giving him sufficient startup capital to start his own business. It’s not quite what most people think, is it? I would suggest that the biblical system is far superior to our modern welfare system. http://jasonlisle.com/2012/01/23/gods-law-too-harsh/
exodus 21. 5-6 says “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
This is not at all what we think of in America as slavery, Jesus is refereed to as a slave as is the apostle paul, if anyone has a job they work under someone else and for them and can be considered a slave.
A great book in the bible of what OT slavery/servanthood was like read the book of ruth. How servant were treated etc. For example, boaz marries his slave/ ruth who asked him to marry.
Contrary to the claims of many skeptics, the New Testament proclaims that all people are equal in the eyes of God - even slaves:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)
knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. (Ephesians 6:8)
And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. (Ephesians 6:9)
a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11)
The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2; Deut. 15:12).
When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14).
The bible tells owners to take care of “slaves” so they will be as sons, sounds like adoption almost.
21 He who pampers his servant from childhood
######Will have him as a son in the end.
Proverbs 29.21
slaves were to be treated as being hired from year to year,and were not to be ruled over ruthlessly lev 25 53-54
many laws existed to prevent this from happening,many laws to help the poor in lev ex Deuteronomy Deuteronomy 15 1-18 shows slavery and poverty were to be battled against and not preferred institutions.
all slaves were to be realsed after 6 years and could be bought back at any time if they had the money
people chose to enter into slavery
The OT laws are not gods perfect plan,but for a specific time and people coming from a ancient near eastern culture.Matt 19.8
we cannot apply todays western standards to OT near eastern jews. ot law is not the way god wants, its a way for ancient Israel to live by in a fallen world.
many of the laws are case laws, such as if a man sells his daughter in slavery if two man quarrel etc these are working with infierer conditions in ancient near east. In dueternomy 15 13-14 it says when a slave is realesed, the more money and wealth the former owner gives to the slave, the more god will bless them dueternomy 15.18.
job 31 13-15 shows servants and masters are no different from each other.
Courts were to rule rightly with jew or gentile Deuteronomy 1 16-17 no physical harm was to be done to a slave or they would be let go ex 21 26-27
if a master kills a slave he is to be put to death ex 21.20
1 chronicles 2 34-35 sheshan gave his daughter in marriage to his Egyptian servant jarha. Israel was commanded to offer safe havens for foreigners run away slaves
Deuteronomy 23 15-16
1/2 to 2/3 of white immigrants to America in colonial times served as indentured servants or biblical slavery.
Rape
Rape was punsiable by death
Ex 22 10-17 Deuteronomy 22 23-29 2013-14 21 10-14 and page 118-121 is god a moral mosnter paul copan. rape was punishable by death Deuteronomy 22 25-27
11-05-2012, 12:26
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I just love how "atheism" is given a set of attributes, and the notion that one "has to do x" because of "atheist beliefs"(now that's a contradicting term!).
never said that, in fact my whole argument show atheist being inconsistent with atheism..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
TR, if you spent as much time taking in what people answer you, as you do surfing christian webpages, I think you would reach much further mentally.
You seem to repeat your own line of thinking no matter what arguments you are met by, that is what I meant when I wrote that I see no chance for progress here.
There are two sides of a debate. You are supposed to make your case, you do a great job at that BTW mate. However, you are also supposed to really try and understand what the people around you say and why.
I am afraid that your way of arguing comes off as rather childish at this point. Kind of like a child with a megaphone, putting his hands to his ears going "lalala" while catching his breath between his tirades.
I love first part, as it fits you great, stop using atheist websites that lie to you. Read my op that you still seem not to be able to grasp.
I agree, as me and others have said, you still dont get the argument I am making. So that is why I must try to repeat, as your responses dont answer what I am saying.
I do fully understand what your saying in all things, I dont disagree with what you say. The only point I care to make is my OP argument.
I can see why you would think that, but it is just I care not to argue the points you make, just my original OP.
11-05-2012, 12:27
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
TR,
Quote:
You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out,
why not? as men are stronger, lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?.
this would be both rape and slavery, yet you cannot give a logical answer assuming evolution is true that these are "wrong".
Please bear in mind, that just because you havent bothered to look, or havent understood it, it doesnt mean I havent answered it.
So here we go again: Atheist morals in the case of slavery is easy. If everyone tried to enslave everyone else it would be a horrible world.
Rape is wrong because if everyone went around and tried to rape it would be a horrible world.
Remember when I said the basis of atheist morals are: "What would happen if everyone did it?" Well, there you go. Maybe THIS time that message sinks in... Will I be met with a wall of quotes again? Or will you do some thinking on your own?
EDIT: That was directed to your first post. You are aware you can multi-quote, so you don't have to make a new post for each reply?
I understand your OP, I just dont agree on the fundaments your line of reasoning is based on.
11-05-2012, 12:46
HoreTore
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by total relism
never said that, in fact my whole argument show atheist being inconsistent with atheism..
And that's the funny part, since you can't be "inconsistent with atheism"... Atheism is nothing, you can't be "inconsistent with nothing".
11-05-2012, 12:48
Ronin
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by total relism
Please prove, read this very post hitler says he was atheist, no one said atheist must be like hitler, just they cant say what he did was "wrong".
Hitler talks in Mein Kampf about his religious faith.
he also signed a concordat with the Catholic Church that included the provisioning that his birthday should be celebrated by decree in the German churches every year......his SS troops had religious saying in their equipment...etc..etc....these are not the acts of an atheist.
11-05-2012, 14:43
HoreTore
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
Hitler talks in Mein Kampf about his religious faith.
he also signed a concordat with the Catholic Church that included the provisioning that his birthday should be celebrated by decree in the German churches every year......his SS troops had religious saying in their equipment...etc..etc....these are not the acts of an atheist.
No, but they are the acts of a pragmatic dictator living in a christian cuntry who feels that all means are justified by the end...
11-05-2012, 14:55
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
No, but they are the acts of a pragmatic dictator living in a christian cuntry who feels that all means are justified by the end...
The Nazis IMHO tried to build up a mythology of their own. The Christian influence in this can be argued back and forth forever, and is generally seen as a time sink.
Can the christian church swear itself free completely of Nazi Germany? No, of course not! Plenty of evidence in the other direction.
Can the christian church be accused of the doings of Nazi Germany? No, of course not! Plenty of evidence in the other direction.
So the discussion will always boil down to where on the slippery grey scale you want to place Christianity in Nazi Germany, and that always have more to do with prior political and religious adherence than anything else.
11-05-2012, 15:00
Kralizec
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
"Thou shalt not murder" is not a (uniquely) biblical concept, every society throughout history has had this rule. I would have thought that would be obvious. The Babylonians had written laws against it before the jews even existed. Maybe there were societies that didn't have it, but they would have crumbled so quickly that there wouldn't be historical record of them.
I do not understand why you're bothering with slavery at all in your argument. Yes, slavery in ancient times was different from the kind practiced by Europeans and Americans in early modern times. I don't think anybody here said otherwise, in fact I think that it's more or less common knowledge on this forum. It's still slavery regardless.
As for the "atheists don't have any basis on which they can condemn slavery" argument - I'll get to that later, but now I'll just point out that christians have used their religion to both justify and later on condemn it. Of course you might respond by saying that the christians who held African slaves were bad christians who didn't follow God's will or whatever. Which sort of makes an objective moral standard like "Will of God" kind of useless, because evidently the content is a matter of subjective opinion.
Various European philosophers have put forward their ideas of the "social contract" which gives a plausible explanation as to why people have rules and bother following them. Hobbes is my personal favourite, but there's also Locke, Rousseau etc.
And there's the evolutionary aspect - like you said, atheists generally see thoughts and emotions as nothing more than complicated electrochemical reactions. Even in the total absence of religion people would still follow social rules and their "conscience" because humans are built like that. Some christians, like you, think that atheists can turn into killers overnight because they have no rational reason to follow the dictates of their consicence. But it doesn't work like that - knowing that empathy and conscience are biological functions doesn't make them any less potent. Sure, there are sociopaths, but that's a condition not caused by voluntary choice.
11-05-2012, 15:10
HoreTore
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
The Nazis IMHO tried to build up a mythology of their own. The Christian influence in this can be argued back and forth forever, and is generally seen as a time sink.
There was the völkisch movement, with the Thule Society closest to the nazi party, but that was way back in the early days of Hitler and it probably had zero real influence. Then you had Himmlers attempt to build an Odin-cult, which Hitler strongly opposed, denounced and ridiculed.
11-05-2012, 15:14
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
There was the völkisch movement, with the Thule Society closest to the nazi party, but that was way back in the early days of Hitler and it probably had zero real influence. Then you had Himmlers attempt to build an Odin-cult, which Hitler strongly opposed, denounced and ridiculed.
I think the Odin cult was frikkin awesome!! Historical comedy value extraordinaire....
11-05-2012, 15:21
HoreTore
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
I think the Odin cult was frikkin awesome!! Historical comedy value extraordinaire....
Then you should definitely read up on the völkisch movement. It has everything, really: jewhate, racial superiority, aliens, master races living beneath Himalaya, magical monks, the list goes on!
Terje Emberland is a norwegian academic who has written a few books on the subject(and related subjects). He has also contributed to a few anthologies and such, I'm sure you can find some with either him or related authors in Sweden too..
11-05-2012, 15:39
Ronin
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
No, but they are the acts of a pragmatic dictator living in a christian cuntry who feels that all means are justified by the end...
if your point is that he was only using Christianity as a way to attain and maintain power........that's kinda like saying water is wet........that's what religions do.
11-05-2012, 16:09
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
I think I prefer to live in an atheistic moral world, than a Christian moral world.
First of all, as other posters also have pointed out, the "absolute" morals of Christianity are absolute, but what absolutes these consist of change from person to person, church to church, time to time.
However, someone having an ABSOLUTE morale to rely on can more easily be duped into really horrible actions against other humans, as the "others", by not adhering to the same morals, by definition are ABSOLUTEly wrong / corrupt. Just makes demonizing other human categories that much easier.
I prefer to live in a world where morals are not set. I believe it's wrong to kill, but it doesn't mean I have never killed, or will never kill. Absolutely NONE of my morals are absolute.
Sure, some things I would have to draw up absolutely ridiculous-over-the-top-Hollywood-scenarious to justify.... rape as an example...
I see it very hard imagining a situation where I would deem it morally OK to rape another person... Buuuuut... Say a sinister disease killed all of humanity except me and two girls. One of these girls have terrible mental issues from all that has happened, and absolutely refuses giving birth...
Would I rape her and force a birth to try and save the human race? Hard to say as I haven't been in that situation, and I don't see the need to speculate about it as I probably wont ever get there either.
However, it goes to show that my morals on rape or anything else aren't absolute by any means.
11-05-2012, 16:17
rvg
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Don't have much to add to this thread other than to say that the Ignore list is a great feature.
11-05-2012, 16:21
HoreTore
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
if your point is that he was only using Christianity as a way to attain and maintain power........that's kinda like saying water is wet........that's what religions do.
No, that's not quite what I'm saying.
What I was saying is more along the lines of "Germany contained a bunch of christians, mass converting them away from christianity would be impossible within the timeframe, so he had to make do".
11-05-2012, 16:29
Kadagar_AV
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
No, that's not quite what I'm saying.
What I was saying is more along the lines of "Germany contained a bunch of christians, mass converting them away from christianity would be impossible within the timeframe, so he had to make do".
Sums it up quite nicely.
11-05-2012, 16:48
Rhyfelwyr
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Don't have much to add to this thread other than to say that the Ignore list is a great feature.
But then you would miss out on all the fun.
Has anybody actually checked the linkTR gave of himself in another debate.
I've only glanced at it but it appears to be discussion of whether radical Christians or radical environmentalists are more likely to attept to genocide humanity.
Who is the biggest danger in this very serious and relevant topic? I don't know, but I can't wait to find out...
11-05-2012, 16:57
HoreTore
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
But then you would miss out on all the fun.
Has anybody actually checked the linkTR gave of himself in another debate.
I've only glanced at it but it appears to be discussion of whether radical Christians or radical environmentalists are more likely to attept to genocide humanity.
Who is the biggest danger in this very serious and relevant topic? I don't know, but I can't wait to find out...
I have always been extremely fascinated by the right-wing christian islamophobia, it's way more fun than the hooligan islamophobia of edl, for example.
The only problem is that such sites tend to be riddled with bible verses, of which I have neither knowledge nor any intent of reading. They may be more fun for you than me, Rhy. I have seen some non-bible heavy sites though, and they've been a blast.
Edit: dang it, I misread you Rhy, I thought you were referring to the links he gave in his OP...
Edit2: checked out the twc-link. Stopped reading after seeing the second posters nick was "Justicar". That's just soooo July 2011....
11-05-2012, 17:38
total relism
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
And that's the funny part, since you can't be "inconsistent with atheism"... Atheism is nothing, you can't be "inconsistent with nothing".
really, so say if a atheist were to believe in god? or that human have value, things like right to life, killing is bad etc etc, as hitler and darwin point out, these things are inconstant with evolution/atheism. I have shown over and over on this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
Hitler talks in Mein Kampf about his religious faith.
he also signed a concordat with the Catholic Church that included the provisioning that his birthday should be celebrated by decree in the German churches every year......his SS troops had religious saying in their equipment...etc..etc....these are not the acts of an atheist.
Here is hitler in mein kampf
“ He who does not wish to fight in this world, where permanent struggle is the law of life, has not the right to exist”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p266 2003
“The stronger must dominate and not mate with the weaker, which would signify the sacrafice of its own higher nature. Only the born weakling can look upon this principle as cruel,and if he does so it is mearly because he is of a feebler nature and narrower mind for if such a law did not direct the process of evolution
then the higher development of organic life would not be conceivable at all”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p262 2003
“if nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one. Because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being may thus be rendered futile.”
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p263 2003
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
hitler and the church were opposed to each other. His words, and common sense.
Please provide evidence of the ss using christian sayings etc.
I do not doubt,that hitler forced his b-day to be celebrated in churches,what does this have to do with christianity or the bible?.
Hitler had to convice germany of his beliefs he did so throgh propaganda, the leading opnents of his beliefs was the church in germany so he changed the bible and took over the church to fit his beliefs.
Heschel, S., The Aryan Jesus: Christian Theologians and the Bible in Nazi Germany, Princeton University press, USA, 2008
Liberal German theologians had taught since the early 1900s that Galilee was supposedly populated by racially Aryan Gentiles in the 8th century BC following the Assyrian conquest of Israel, thereby opposing Jesus’ identity as a Jew (p. 57).
In his own book, Jesus the Galilean, Grundmann advocated that Mary was not a Jew, and Jesus had an illegitimate father: a Roman soldier named Panther (or Panthera) (p. 155). Ironically, this is an ancient libel from Celsus and anti-Christian Jews attacking Jesus’ legitimacy (“ben Panthera/Pandera”). However, the Gospel was clearly presented in Jesus’ discussion with Nicodemus, especially in John 3:16.
By the end of 1941, 200,000 copies of Die Botschaft Gottes had been sold or distributed to members of the German Christians movement, including soldiers (p. 111). Some pastors and scholars in the Confessing Church wrote pamphlets or spoke against it. After the War, most copies were destroyed, with only two or three still known to exist.
A catechism for the times
In 1941, the Institute was involved in producing Germans with God: a German Catechism.5 “It omitted traditional doctrinal positions regarding miracles, virgin birth, incarnation, resurrection, and so forth, in favor of positioning Jesus as a human being who struggled on behalf of God and died not only as a martyr, but also a ‘victor’ on the cross, despite being a victim of the Jews” (pp. 126–27).
It (not the ‘Nazi Bible’, as has been reported) contained 12 revised Commandments in place of the OT ten:
1. Honor God and believe in him wholeheartedly.
2. Seek out the peace of God.
3. Avoid all hypocrisy.
4. Holy is your health and life.
5. Holy is your well-being and honor.
6. Holy is your truth and fidelity.
7. Honor your father and mother—your children are your aid and your example.
8. Keep the blood pure and the marriage holy.
9. Maintain and multiply the heritage of your forefathers.
10. Be ready to help and forgive.
11. Honor your Führer and master.
12. Joyously serve the people with work and sacrifice.
The Institute’s perverse attempt to marry Christianity to Nazism was not reciprocated by the Nazis.
Perhaps divine prohibitions of murder, theft, and covetousness were deemed inappropriate for a ‘survival-of-the-fittest’ ideology that was instrumental in the then ongoing pillage of Europe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
The Nazis IMHO tried to build up a mythology of their own. The Christian influence in this can be argued back and forth forever, and is generally seen as a time sink.
Can the christian church swear itself free completely of Nazi Germany? No, of course not! Plenty of evidence in the other direction.
Can the christian church be accused of the doings of Nazi Germany? No, of course not! Plenty of evidence in the other direction.
So the discussion will always boil down to where on the slippery grey scale you want to place Christianity in Nazi Germany, and that always have more to do with prior political and religious adherence than anything else.
I want to respond to bolded, please read all my post and the above. Hitler was against the church/ the church was against hitler.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
before the jews even existed. Maybe there were societies that didn't have it, but they would have crumbled so quickly that there wouldn't be historical record of them.
I do not understand why you're bothering with slavery at all in your argument. Yes, slavery in ancient times was different from the kind practiced by Europeans and Americans in early modern times. I don't think anybody here said otherwise, in fact I think that it's more or less common knowledge on this forum. It's still slavery regardless.
christians have used their religion to both justify and later on condemn it. Of course you might respond by saying that the christians who held African slaves were bad christians who didn't follow God's will or whatever. Which sort of makes an objective moral standard like "Will of God" kind of useless, because evidently the content is a matter of subjective opinion.
And there's the evolutionary aspect - like you said, atheists generally see thoughts and emotions as nothing more than complicated electrochemical reactions. Even in the total absence of religion people would still follow social rules and their "conscience" because humans are built like that. Some christians, like you, think that atheists can turn into killers overnight because they have no rational reason to follow the dictates of their consicence. But it doesn't work like that - knowing that empathy and conscience are biological functions doesn't make them any less potent. Sure, there are sociopaths, but that's a condition not caused by voluntary choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
if your point is that he was only using Christianity as a way to attain and maintain power........that's kinda like saying water is wet........that's what religions do.
I never said any society never had morals, we were all created by a moral god as moral beings, I said atheist are being inconstant saying there is such a thing as absolute morals. Few societies have been based on atheism, all recent. Hitler,stalin,pol pot etc all murdered millions.
In fact a atheist brought it up as if the bible condoned slavery. I showed very diffident.
Not at all, christian doing what bible says, is constant with bible. Bible never says anything about justifying what americans/europeans/and all other races who enslave people. By the way, first real slave in america, guess who, a black man enslaving another black man.
Thank you for recanizing the delima of atheist morality. You in the end call some
"Sure, there are sociopaths, but that's a condition not caused by voluntary choice"
but what makes them "sociopaths"? how do you now your not the "sociopaths".
In fact you only feel ,murder,rape etc are wrong because the random chemical reactions in your brain make you feel that way. Not because it truly is right or wrong. I may be like hitler and think murdering is good, what makes your random chemical reactions correct and mine wrong?.They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.
You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out, you would be doing the opposite of evolution and what got us here to follow christian morals and to act like people have unalienable rights, and value.These are biblical ideas that people were created in the image of god.,
