EDU Rebalance Mod

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01-12-2013, 17:18
Seer7

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EDU Rebalance Mod
I am posting this with no small amount of trepidation because I am unsure of how it will be received.

The purpose of this mod grew out of my own desire to tweak the EB EDU, from modifying a dozen or so units to, eventually, most of the unit roster. Only the ships, and a dozen or so other units, have been left untouched. I have modded unit stats before, privately, for Shogun 2 and Medieval 2, but the unit roster of EB is...extensive. If my Steam log is to be believed, I have put well over 200 hours of tweaking and testing into this release: I am telling you all this to show this is not some hasty, highly personal rebalance. This mod reflects some of my personal preferences, yes, but I have read extensively (mostly unit descriptions) and, perhaps more importantly, become highly familiar with how the person or persons behind the EDU constructed it for EB. There are patterns; there are rules (that may be bent occasionally). There are also what I perceive as flaws, intentional or not.

To the EB team: thank you. I have learned so much, both about modding and about history, and having done this I appreciate a small part of the gargantuan task you continue to devote yourselves to and the significance of your achievement. This mod is best used with Jirisys' Mega Mod Pack for Alexander, and to a large extent he prompted me to attempt this: as soon as I downloaded his mod I was 'back into it', so to speak. He covered a lot of ground, and I too felt that I could make a contribution. This is the result. Also, to whoever made this unit list: thank you, it made my work much easier.

So, what has changed?

The primary purpose of this mod was to rebalance armour values. There were many units described as having 'no armor' whatsoever, yet in the EDU a value of 1 or more could be seen. I'm sure the EB members behind it had their reasons, but I wanted a new system, one that followed a ruleset:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Armour values:
metal 'heart protector' = 2 (only +1 small)
leather armour (chest) = 2
leather armour (+arms) = 3
leather armour (+thighs) = 4
linothorax = 5
'lesser' scale = 6
half-reinforced linothorax = 6
fully reinforced linothorax = 7
full-length scale = 7
'lesser' chain = 7
'standard' chain/scale = 8
'high quality' chain = 9
lamellar corselet = 9
cuirass = 9
cuirass with pteryges = 10

Misc armour values:
set of leather greaves = 1
leather helm = 1
each metal greave = 1
set of metal bracers = 2
metal helm = 2
metal helm with faceplate = 3
metal helm special = 4
laminated leg and arm guards = 6
--
horse barding front = 2
horse barding half = 4
horse barding three quarters = 6
horse barding full = 8
--
elephant barding = 12

The above list functions as a 'rule of thumb', that and innumerable unit descriptions were what I used to tweak armour values. It looks simple but it took a while to hammer out, and I've probably made some errors here or there in implementing it; there are many difficulties, many subjective decisions made, and more than once I deferred to the EB team's judgement when it was too close for me to call. I have tested and reviewed my work thoroughly to iron out the flaws of implementation as much as I can. Some considered feedback on my decisions would be welcome.

The results were mainly minor tweaks: very few units had to be changed significantly, and those that lost armour points often made up for them (entirely or in part) with a bonus to defense skill. It snowballed from there. Unit size, morale, terrain bonuses, attack values etc. Small changes were made where I deemed necessary, but always with reference to my source material, and with an eye on gameplay effects. Another significant change was to javelin and arrow ammunition levels:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Archer Ammo:
Levy: 18
Semi-professional: 30
Professional: 42
Horse archer: 48

Slinger Ammo:
Stone: 24
Bullet: 30

Before, for example, a standard unit of horse archers could have significantly more arrows than an elite horse archer unit: perhaps this was due to the size of their respective quivers, either way, there was not enough information in unit descriptions or by observing the unit in-game to determine precise ammunition levels. As a result I opted, again, for a ruleset in multiples of a dozen or half-dozen. I also wanted archery units to fire for longer, and only join the melee towards its end, if at all. Horse archers, combined with the lessened armour values for many light infantry units, are more deadly as a result.

Javelins were much simpler: for the most part, what you see is what you get. If a skirmisher has one in his hand and two with his shield, that is his ammunition level. Some skirmishers are not modeled holding javelins, in which case they receive the standard three javelin load. Only the Cidainh and Armored Indian Elephants escape this limit. Units that hurl javelins before a melee are now universally reduced to two javelins, to lesson the impact of the 'prec' bug explained by me in a previous thread. In game, I found that javelin equipped skirmishers acted less like light infantry/cavalry and more like psuedo-archers: hanging back to hurl 6 or more volleys of javelins and only joining the melee very late into the battle, and I wanted to change that. They soon deplete their ammunition and join the battle: you will have to watch out for more encirclements and harassment now. This has a side effect of making elephants more dangerous, as they should be, but still quite manageable for a human player.

Another significant change is the reintroduction of the 'spear' attribute for some units. It is all but unused in EB, but it has significant gameplay effects. All spear units with a 'powerful charge' (AFAIK > 6/7) now have the 'spear' attribute. They are mainly, but not exclusively, veteran or elite units. It "gives default bonus of +8 to attack vs cavalry, and penalty of -4 to attack vs. infantry." - The Complete EDU Guide. So while some units will be able to 'push' and disrupt formations of infantry, even breaking them at times, they will not be scything through them; cavalry is a different matter. For an illustration of its impact, in one test battle a unit of Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai attacked a slightly weakened Polybian Hastati unit: eventually they had disrupted the Hastati's formation to such an extent they broke (but were not decimated, they later rallied). Battles are now a bit more chaotic and unpredictable when these units are present.

Traditional Hoplitai units have been given the 'short_pike' and 'spear' attributes, but not in the way implemented by TWFanatic or Jirisys: they retain their 'original' stats, with a slight bonus to charge, and with all the advantages the new attributes bring. Units like Hypaspistai also retain their dual weapon systems. No offense to either intended: I simply preferred to work off the EB team's values. Pike units have also received the 'spear' attribute, with the exception of some 'levy' units; similarly, levy Hoplitai retain their 'light_spear'. These units can hold a line, but not break one.

Most of the tweaks are done 'under the hood' and similar or identical-looking units may actually be different in subtle ways. I have included a full changelog, but be warned it is haphazard: this was an unorganised development, after all. Also, every unit listed is done so by their name in the EDU, which may or may not correspond to what you know them as in-game. Discovering precisely which entry corresponded to each unit caused a significant amount of frustration at times, even with the help of the above list on the internet. Probably the best way to view the changes is by playing your favourite faction in a custom MP battle and seeing what's different.

Other changes of note:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Adjusted reforms for the Romani (AI and player). Reversible to stock if desired.

-Player Marian reforms are unconditional after > 59 settlements; conditional reforms remain at > 44 settlements.
-AI Marian reforms are unconditional after > 29 settlements, with the RandomPercent chance increased to 12.
-Added unconditional AI and Player Augustan reforms:
--Player Augustan reforms are unconditional after > 89 settlements.
--AI Augustan reforms are unconditional after > 59 settlements, with a RandomPercent of 6.
--Conditional Augustan reforms have also been adjusted to search for a reformer after > 74 settlements.

Enabled the Dosidataskeli in the EDB. If you wish to disable them, consult the WIP file in the changelog folder.

descr_model_battle changes:

-Gave the Druhtiz Skandzisku, the Druhtiz Habukisku 'fs_fast_o_f_spearman_big' and the Dorkim Garamantim (Garamantines) 'fs_fast_o_f_spearman': the overhand spear animations. This is how I fixed their respective spear problems without changing the actual model.
-Gave the Thureophoroi the 'fast moving' skeleton - fs_fast_javelinman, fs_fast_o_f_spearman. They are described as "extremely mobile", after all.
-Gave the Thrakioi Peltastai the 'fast moving' skeleton - fs_semi_fast_javelinman, fs_semi_fast_swordsman_barb_slash. This change seemed appropriate to me.
-Imported Darth Stalin's late legionary skins (and adjusted EDU accordingly).
-Imported the 0.81a Komatai skin. This is a personal preference and is reversible in this release.
--This effectively wipes out the new skin for the Komatai Epilektoi as well, though I left their unit card in-game so you know which unit to click.
--Komatai Epilektoi now wear green tunics and pants to distinguish them within a Getic army (aka the 'slave' skin).
--If I could, I would have the old Komatai skin for regular Komatai and keep the new skin for the Epilektoi but this is impossible: it's one or the other.

Option for installing extra legions for compatibility with Jirisys' mod: new legion values adjusted accordingly, aquilifer for regular first cohorts included. Also included the original Druhtiz Skandzisku-Druhtiz Habukisku and Garamantines models as my mod does not require Cute Wolf's fix.

The sprites for Darth Stalin's legionaries are unused as I didn't see the point, but I included them anyway if you wish to use them (you'll have to edit the DMB).
Install Guide:
- WARNING: This mod adjusts the export_descr_unit (EDU, SP+MP), export_descr_building (EDB), descr_model_battle (DMB) and the EBBS_SCRIPT. All except the script are located in the EB/Data folder, the script is located in EB/Data/scripts/show_me. I am unsure if this is compatible with the Barbarian Invasion expansion as I have never used it.
1. Do a clean install of EB 1.2 after installing and patching Rome: Total War.
2. Unrar the archive in the main Rome directory eg. C:\Program Files\Rome: Total War
3. It will ask you to overwrite some files: accept, but not before you back up the important files listed in the warning above! This is to ensure you can reverse the changes. Without the appropriate text files, the game doesn't utilize different resources.
4. Inside the EB folder, copy either the SP EDU or the MP EDU into the Data folder and overwrite: I recommend testing each one to ensure there are no unexpected errors.
5. To implement Optional restorations, copy the appropriate 'EB' folder from the 'Rebalance-Optional' folder and paste it to the main Rome directory, overwriting as necessary.
6. Play! If there are errors: post!
For Jirisys Compatibility:
1. Follow the above list, installing Jirisys' mod after the clean install of EB 1.2. Please note there are two versions: one for Jirisys' Alexander release and one for his RTW release.
2. WARNING: ensure you back up the files 'ebgermanic_skandza_habuko_alin_stefan25_high.cas' & 'ebmodel_african_infantry_garamantines_HIGH.cas' (EB/Data/models_unit) along with the above files. As noted above, this is because Jirisys' mod uses different models to fix a well known glitch with them.
For City Mod/Spoils of Victory Compatibility:

No special installation required, as they come bundled! (See below)
- WARNING: The City Mod releases modify, in addition to the above, the map.rvm (EB/sp game edu backup); descr_cultures (EB/Data); descr_regions, map.rvm (EB/Data/world/maps/base); and campaign_script, descr_strat (EB/Data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign) files.
- WARNING: The Spoils of Victory releases modify, in addition to the above, export_descr_character_traits, export_descr_VnVs_enums (EB/Data); export_VnVs (EB/Data/text); and EBBS_SCRIPT (EB/Data/scripts/show_me) files.
- Please back up the above files to ensure you can reverse the changes; this is critical for the Spoils of Victory releases because as noted below they are NOT save game compatible!
To uninstall:

Overwrite the files installed with your backups; this will not remove unused files, but I have no knowledge of how to make an installer so you'll have to remove them manually if you want it completely gone, sorry!

I think that's everything. This is my first release of this size and complexity, so I hope things are working as intended: if they're not, post.

=======================

Version 1.01

Apologies to auboy105 and anyone else who has tried to use the optional compatibility with Jirisys' mod: I forgot to add the DS models and unit cards, an oversight on my part. I also took the opportunity to fix up some other things which I noticed after the initial release:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Changed Dorkei Hatkafa Ibeerim solifera back to pilum (description asserts they used pila, models show them holding pila as well)
Returned Lusotannan and Celtiiberian Skirmishers' armour values (a whole 1 armor)
Gave Remi Mairepos a small bonus to charge (to distinguish them from the lesser Brihentin)
Nakhararakan Tiknapah take -1 armour (armor calculation error)

Version 1.02

A special thank you to auboy105 for providing much needed feedback. I am cautiously optimistic, everything should work now as I tested each version and everything loaded fine. Changes:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

SP EDU (both editions):

-Fixed Picked Libyphoenician error.
-Fixed Agema Hellenikon error.
-Fixed Babylonian Heavy Infantry error.
-Fixed Nakhararakan Tiknapah error.
-Fixed Kardaka error.
-Fixed Misthophoroi Iphikratous Hoplitai error.
-Fixed Thorakitai Hoplitai error.
-Fixed Indogreek Nobles Hoplites error.
-Fixed Baktrioi Agema error.
-Fixed Machimoi Phalangitai error.
-Fixed Chalkaspidai error.
-Fixed Massiliotes Hoplitai error.

A series of very unusual errors: after overwriting each entry with the MP version (and ensuring ownership was appropriate) it worked fine. Really strange, but easily fixed with some patience.

Version 1.03

I noticed how foot missile, artillery crews and some skirmishing units seemed to be overpowered, considering they were supposed to be 'cut to pieces' by more professional troops and cavalry. In this version, I set out to change that by reducing their melee attack values and decided, once again, to turn to a ruleset to bring some manner of impartiality to the process:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

-Levy reduced by half.
-Semi-Professional reduced by two-thirds.
-Professional reduced by a quarter.
-Horse archers exempt, and some other troops.
-Values were rounded off where appropriate.

The results are simple enough: no longer will your professional troops take considerable casualties from such units, and will make short work of them as they should. Caution would still serve best with medium and light cavalry against unbroken units, however, as they are still vulnerable in a melee, though to a lesser degree than before. Changes below:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Full details of the actual changes are contained in the updated 'rebalancing' text file in the Pre-release changelog folder. Counter-intuitive, but it made more sense to just add on to that extensive log.
^In general, denotes a missle unit with appreciable melee skills; they have been granted a plus one after the reduction.

Units affected:

Archers:
-Sotaroas
-Toxotai
-Nuraghi
-Iaosatae
-Skutjanz
-Lankininkas
-Komatai Toxotai
-Sabean Archers
-Eransahr Arshtbara
-Medininkas
-Thanvare Payahdag
-Syrian Archers
-Numidian Archers
-Komatai Agrianai^
-Ethiopian Archers^
-Thureopheromenoi Toxotai^
-Giusim Aravim Tsfonim
-Subeshi Fistaegfataexsdzhytae
-Hallatamti Thanvare
-Levantine Saggitarius Auxilia
-Skuda Fistaeg Fat Aexsdzhytae
-Sarmatian Foot Archers
-Mardian Foot Archers
-Indian Longbowmen^
-Saka Foot Archers
-Toxotai Kretikoi^
-Caucasian Archers

Slingers:
-Accensi
-Komatai Sphendonitai
-Iberian Slingers
-African Slingers
-Arab Slingers
-Iaosatae
-Shuban Fradakshana
-Sphendonetai
-Rhodian Slingers
-Balearic Slinger

Skirmishers:
-Iovamann
-Artish Pada
-Akontistai
-Iberian Northern Skirmisher
-Iberi Velites
-Leves
-Velites^
-Imannae
-Jugunthiz
-Numidian Javelinmen

Artillery weapons:
-Triaspanai Katapeltai
-Triakubitai Katapeltai
-Triakontaiminai Lithoboloi
-Monotalanta Lithoboloi
-Vitruvian Scorpions
-Vitruvian catapulta
-Vitruvian 30 mina stone thrower
-Vitruvian 1 talent stone thrower

Other changes of note:
-Thureopheromenoi Toxotai gain +1 armour
-Herthaganautoz take -1 defense skill
-Germanic General take -1 defense skill

The patch can be downloaded from the attachments below. There are two versions: one for Jirisys' Alexander release, and one for everything else. Just extract and overwrite, and remember to copy either the MP or SP EDU to your EB/Data folder. Nice and simple. The patch is save game compatible, but I'm unsure if it will affect currently existing units or just newly trained ones, and there will obviously be a stat discrepancy if the latter is the case.

Version 1.04

To those paying attention, no, I'm not dead. That said, this will probably be the final update. I'm making good on my ramblings at the bottom of this page concerning javelin loadouts and fears that nerfing the ranged units attacks have ensured the AI has even more reason not to use them. I have no idea if this is actually the case beyond my limited experience in a test campaign, but if it's true I should fix it. So, this version follows on from the previous in format. Two versions (one Jirisys, one other), and it installs the same way as above.

I've decided to leave the v1.03 changes intact in the multiplayer EDU, while keeping them out of the singleplayer, and ensuring both have the javelin changes. Units which previously only had three, not two as I mistakenly said below, javelins now have four. There are a few exceptions, like Cidainh getting another 3 because they're terrible in melee, but most regular skirmishers just get one more. Of course, all of this is optional (and save game compatible), so the new version has simply been added to the list below for those interested. Thanks again to all of those who've downloaded, and hopefully enjoyed, my mod. I'll still check the thread every now and then as I usually do, and respond to any problems.

Old announcements:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

03-05-13: I've added a version compatible with Jirisys' RTW modpack. Apologies to those who thought it was meant for both, I should have clarified that. I've also added three additional versions for compatibility with MarcusAureliusAntoninus' City Mod v5.1a.

03-07-13: I've created two more versions bundled with V.T. Marvin's Spoils of Victory mod. At this time this does not extend to Jirisys' Mod, but because Marvin was kind enough to release the source code you could probably copy and paste the data into the appropriate files yourself. To help, I have also released a compatibility patch that combines my Romani reform changes with Marvin's EBBS_SCRIPT; if you do not use the Romani reforms feel free to disregard this. FAIR WARNING: These versions are NOT save game compatible.

03-08-13: As requested, four more versions have been released for compatibility with MarcusAureliusAntoninus' City Mod v5.1b. This brings the total releases to a whopping 13, and will probably be the last of the 'compatibility projects' for now, though I will always consider a polite request. The new releases are marked v5.1b while the regular 'City Mod' releases remain v5.1a.

If anyone is confused about the various editions don't hesitate to ask, and as always any further feedback is appreciated!
02-25-2013, 16:08
fomalhaut

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

is this save game compatible? awesome work either way, will this finally fix the fundamental issue I have with this game: Battles never take place, they are a benny hill chase scene and it's no fun at all.
02-26-2013, 06:44
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Hi fomalhaut,

Yes, it should be save game compatible, the only thing you might notice is the change of some unit sizes depending on what faction you're currently playing, though I will admit up front I haven't tested this...

As for your fundamental issue, I would recommend playing with Alexander, as what you describe sounds like an AI problem and this only modifies unit stats and a few other things. I haven't had any major problems with the AI engaging, as far as I remember.
02-26-2013, 15:16
fomalhaut

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

I do indeed use Alex.exe , and with DarthMod at that. regardless, playing as the Saba, for instance, is a total pain in the butt, since the AI does nothing but run in circles. I'm not kidding, it's boring beyond belief. Like, literally, the chases could go on infinitely around the battle square sometimes and i just quit out because WOW that's boring and a waste of time.

This is a problem I have here with EB and as you stated.. every skirmisher type (and in Saba, that's pretty much every single unit in the roster) acts like a horse archer and almost never engages in battle until the very end, if at all, but then it's in a haphazard and laughable way which, again, is a massive waste of time.
02-26-2013, 18:39
vollorix

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Downloaded the files, took a look, and found some similarities to what i have done to the EDU myself.
I have modified my phalanx units to "short_pike" + "spear" attr.; gave phalangitai "spear" back etc.
But... as i wrote on this forums lately, the armour value is, apperently, the most significant value when it comes to autocalc ( after the number of men in a unit ), so by reducing the armour value of some units, especially those of "barbarian" factions, i think you will weaken them even more. The funny thing is that even in 3D mode on the actual battlefield the strongest side of a ( phalanx ) unit was considered the left one ( large hoplon shield etc. ), while the right one was concidered more vulnurable, but in RTW "reality" it´s quite the opposite: it´s the right flank of the unit ( battle line ) that is the strongest ( even with "6" shield value of a phalanx unit it is mostly weaker then the defence skill of the soldiers in a unit ), while armour serves as an overall protection, even from the rear. So, weakening some units concerning their armour, you also negate their overall defence skills, since on the left side the unit defence skills doesn seem to count.

I for myself have lowered the most armour values: -2, but didn´t touch the "barbarian" ( and some eastern units ), on the contrary, i´ve added armour for the price of defence skill ( -2 A = +2 def. ). But there are also exceptions like levies, and all the skirmisher units, which shouldn´t actually be able to fight any kind of infantry.
I also made all the slinger units of "20" men ( EDU entry ).

All units, except the dedicated skirmishers, but not Peltastai ( since they are actually also light/medium infantry ) gained a shield value upgrade of +1 ( the "6" value of the hoplites is already included ). This is because i really can´t stand when a skilled, valueable unit gets annyhilated by missiles even before it can do any damage, and the archers therefore do play an inadequate role on the battlefield, massacering half of an army ( if that´s would be the case historicaly, no one would field any kind of light/medium infantry, but stick with archers/slingers instead... )
But all phalangitai units have experienced a decrease of their shield values to "4" ( in phalanx mode they are still pretty invulnurable ); therefore i´ve upped the javeline attack value +1, and also increased the ammunition of many skirmishers ( +2, iirc ), and reduced their numbers to 50 instead of 60 ( edu entry ). Together with weakening their melee stats, they are what they should be: a pain in the a**, harrasing, destructing, hunting down routers, but not acting like light infantry, if not stated as such ( i.e. Celtiberian Skirmishers ). Most of "pure" skirmisher units got the lethality of their "spears" reduced ( to 0.1-0.12 max. ), and also their morale values ( 7 as default, not "good morale" in UI cards anymore, gah! ), and their stamina ( only "hardy", no more "marathons" ). All of them are now vulnurable to cavalry attacks, and really flee after a short fight ( as stated in most of descriptions ).

Another main change are the changes in unit production turns. 3 turns to train any unit, 4 for some more valueable, and 5 for the elites ( like Solduros, Triari, elite Phalangitai/Hoplitai ). Speaking of which, i´ve restrikted the max. armour value of infantry to 12 ( again, for elite units only ), and adjusted their numbers in some cases ( halfed the numbers of Triari, Picked Lybiphoenicians, Pedites Ordinarii for example ). This i did primary because of the affinity of the AI to train the most well armoured units ( along with the biggest men wise ), to stop "Triari spam" of the Romans, etc. etc.

I´ve also entirely removed the "ap" attribute from the infantry swords, but changed the lethality of short swords from 0.1 -> 0.13, all the kopis and falcata armed units became 0.14, resp. 0.15 for their elites, instead. This is mostly to balance those units a bit better: a low lethality "ap" sword is quite ineffective against unarmoured units with high attack/def. values ( like skirmishers... ), while it is way too good against armoured units.
The axes and maces etc. have experienced a lethality reduction: those units were even stronger then dedicated swordmen ( mostly semi/professional ) soldiers, while their attack values were in about the same ( 0.11-0.12 for most units; some, like elites or rare units, famous for their weapons have 0.13-0.14, not to screw them up against unarmoured untis, again; and also, while their mass production will not be possible due to their availibility + up to 5 turns to recruit them, - thats a bit more strategy orientated, rather battle map concerning, i guess ).

I´ve experienced with weapons delays for infantry ( to weaken spearmen, instead of lowering their attack values, and thus changing autocalc results on compaign map ), but a 25 delay vanilla value for a levy spearmen led to them becoming utterly useless, not beeing able to kill anyone...o0 ). I´ve kept the 10 delay for longswords though ( and all the two handers ), and now the shortswordmen seem to be able to keep up a bit, while not matching those units totaly.
Recently i´ve added the "mount_effect": horse -2 to all sword units; it´s not very well tested yet, though in one on one a unit of gaulic swordmen still can kick a**ses of the Brihentin heavy cavalry.

One thing i´ve noticed was that units ( found observing cavalry behaiviour ) with higher lethality for their primary weapon ( here: spear, with "ap" attribute ), won´t switch to their swords/mases, as long as the lethality value of the last are lower then of the primary weapons. Concidering this, and the fact that the weapons delay value doesn´t work on cavalry units at all, i´ve reduced the lethality values of their "ap" spears significantly, so that their sec. weapons would exceed the primary in lethality ( even if it´s a 0.1 value ). And thus, their sec. weapons all gained "ap" attribute to compensate for the "loss". But, at the same time, i´ve also significantly reduced the charge values of almost all cavalry units ( except Catas, Skythian nobles, Iberi "Lanceary which have not been that heavily armoured, it seems ): - 10 charge value for the primary spears, and -5 for the sec. swords/maces. Also switched 2-3 points of armour to defence skill for the most of heavy cavalry units. And, last, but not least, i gave "very hardy" to all cavalry units ( yea, maybe way too inaccurate, but it would be too much work to consider the quality of each of them... ) so that they now can actually ride around on the battlefield without getting exausted after a short time, and still can fight effectively after a short rest ( armoured men get tired quickly, but unarmoured horses hardly do likewise ? ) I hope the skelleton differenses are significant enough to make an actual difference ( speed, for example ).

Ah, yea, i gave "power_charge" attribute to the most "barbarian" sword ( read: Celtig and German ) units, and also set their "discipline" values to "low" instead of "impetouos" ( i have read smw. that the impetouos value works only really good for units with excellent morale +12, which most swordmen units lack. Barbaric Warlords became "power_charge" too, as did the Catas.
I also removed the "thrown" attribute from most of infantry units, since this value is not only responsible for the quickness of "realoading", but also seems to have an undesired effect against units with multiple sec. HP ( like Eles ). Speaking of those, i´ve upped their HP +1 for the animals. And, before i forget, i added +1 ( so totaly 2 ) sec. HP to all cavalry units, except the Generals BG ( after i´ve noticed hordes of lone generals running around with 3 gold chevrons, and taking entire settlements on their own ( one word: easterners ), lol. Also, the "very_hardy" doesn´t apply to BG cavalry as it does to all the others ( those aren´t ment to be the battle winners, imo, and the "standard" cavalry gains even more value, along with their additional strengh in autocalc due to the second HP for the horse ).

Most of my theoretical knowledge i´ve got from Aradan´s guide on TWC, as most of us, i guess. Some things i´ve noticed accidently, some are just changed to my personal gusto, lacking any historical, or logical, explanation, who knows. But i thought i´d share my experiences, maybe they´ll be of some use to anyone interested. Call it "food for thought" :)
02-27-2013, 02:36
fomalhaut

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Can you upload a copy of your EDU? I love the idea of extended unit recruitment turns, although I think Levies should take only 1 turn.
02-27-2013, 14:54
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Quote:

Originally Posted by fomalhaut

I do indeed use Alex.exe , and with DarthMod at that. regardless, playing as the Saba, for instance, is a total pain in the butt, since the AI does nothing but run in circles. I'm not kidding, it's boring beyond belief. Like, literally, the chases could go on infinitely around the battle square sometimes and i just quit out because WOW that's boring and a waste of time.

Unfortunately, my mod can do nothing about that and I have experienced it myself. I always play steppe factions with the battle timer on to avoid this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vollorix

But... as i wrote on this forums lately, the armour value is, apperently, the most significant value when it comes to autocalc ( after the number of men in a unit ), so by reducing the armour value of some units, especially those of "barbarian" factions, i think you will weaken them even more. The funny thing is that even in 3D mode on the actual battlefield the strongest side of a ( phalanx ) unit was considered the left one ( large hoplon shield etc. ), while the right one was concidered more vulnurable, but in RTW "reality" it´s quite the opposite: it´s the right flank of the unit ( battle line ) that is the strongest ( even with "6" shield value of a phalanx unit it is mostly weaker then the defence skill of the soldiers in a unit ), while armour serves as an overall protection, even from the rear. So, weakening some units concerning their armour, you also negate their overall defence skills, since on the left side the unit defence skills doesn seem to count.

Some of the 'barbarian' factions in my mod have had unit sizes increased and many have been compensated with additional defence skill to somewhat mitigate the armour nerf. I'd have to pour through my logs to give you an exact picture, but most units did not take anything more serious than a -2 or -1 to their armour. Some non-'barbarian' factions, like the Romans, are fairly 'weak' until they can pump out well armoured units, as they no longer have high armour values for the likes of early Hastati. As ever, I anticipate factions with a good armoured infantry and cavalry roster will dominate the late game, if they survive. Auto-calc was pretty brutal to the likes of the Sweboz even before my mod, I doubt it will make it much worse. This mod is mainly to benefit the player: though the Sweboz may get brutalised in auto-calc, their lack of armor is no barrier to a competent commander provided he/she is not fighting steppe nomads, in which case you better bring vastly superior numbers...and fight in a forest.

It makes sense that unit defence skills don't count on the shield side, but many units with sizable shields also received armour bonuses under my 'rebalancing' (as they were heavily armoured), so that may help compensate for comparatively anemic shield values. Indeed, that is one thing I forgot to mention in my opening post, shields in this mod essentially go like this, with some wiggle room of course:

Eg.
4 = Hoplon
3 = Makedonian Pelte/Thureos
2 = Illyrian Pelte
1 = Buckler

I am unsure what the long-term campaign consequences of all these changes will be, which is part of why I did this: altering just about every unit in the game means a campaign may take a very different course to what we are used to, or perhaps not. I have not had time for extensive campaign testing, but I assumed some might play and give me a picture. I spent just about all my free time over the holidays and new years to create the mod. Playing a long campaign or two is probably out of reach for me for some time, but once it's done, it's done.
03-01-2013, 09:52
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

I have tried to use your mod with Jirsys Mod Pack but every time I launch it with your mod installed it crashes with the following error:

"Could not find soldier battle model for unit type 'roman infantry evocatae'"

Do you know how I can fix this? Would love to try your mod :(
03-01-2013, 09:59
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Agreed I would love to get a copy of this edu as well. Does it work with Jirsys mod pack?
03-01-2013, 13:19
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Opening post updated! :2thumbsup:
03-01-2013, 17:45
vollorix

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Guys, this is not my thread, and i never intended to post a mini mode, actually. Besided, my edu is made for Ferromancer´s BI version, and it is even more tweaked then just adjusting those values ( as i wrote on the other topic, the unit availability is quite different; not through EDB, but through EDU - many factions can not recruit most of foreign units in specific areas, like Romans aren´t able to recruit any Celtic unit, aside from missile troops, cavalry, and later Neitos. ). So, i doubt, anyone of you can, and would like to, just integrate all the changes... ;)
Other then that, EDU editing is the easiest thing moding wise in RTW; it´s save game compatible ( if you don´t screw the lines, therefore make backup ), and Aradans EDU guide is very well written, and understandable, that you can experience on your own.
03-01-2013, 20:30
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Thanks for the update! Gonna go try now!
03-01-2013, 20:59
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Edit: I still get the same error? Can you get it to work with Jirsys mod pack?
03-02-2013, 13:56
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Updated again. Hopefully it will work this time. Sorry! :sweatdrop:
03-02-2013, 22:32
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seer7

Updated again. Hopefully it will work this time. Sorry! :sweatdrop:

Thanks for your efforts but I still get the same error?
03-03-2013, 11:48
Seer7

2 Attachment(s)

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

How bizarre. It should work; it does for me. I went through the DMB to see if there was any error on my part, but it all lines up correctly, the same as what I am using personally. The soldier battle model for unit type 'roman infantry evocatae' is:

Code:

roman_infantry_cohorsevocata_cohorspraetoriana

In the DMB, the model is controlled by these lines:

Code:

model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebunit_Prome_new_unit_roman_CohorsPraetoriaAugustea_high.cas, 15 model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebunit_Prome_new_unit_roman_CohorsPraetoriaAugustea_med.cas, 30 model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebunit_Prome_new_unit_roman_CohorsPraetoriaAugustea_med.cas, 40 model_flexi eb/data/models_unit/ebunit_Prome_new_unit_roman_CohorsPraetoriaAugustea_med.cas, max

The Cohors Evocata share the model with the Cohors Praetoriana, they just use a different texture, hence:

Code:

texture seleucid, eb/data/models_unit/textures/roman/ebunit_Prome_new_unit_roman_CohorsPraetoriaAugustea_Julii.TGA texture slave, eb/data/models_unit/textures/roman/ebunit_Prome_new_unit_roman_CohorsPraetoriaAugustea_Julii.TGA texture merc, eb/data/models_unit/textures/roman/ebunit_Prome_new_unit_roman_CohortesEvocatae.TGA

What's more, I've released the DS models for Jirisys' mod before, here, and it worked fine, so I'm not sure if I can help you. Perhaps download and try my DS release from that thread, apply it, and see if you get the same error.

Edit: It has occurred to me that not everyone knows what Darth Stalin's models might look like, since they're buried in the archives. So rather than assume everyone has been here as long as me and knows what I'm talking about, I'll show what they look like:

Attachment 8658 Attachment 8659
03-03-2013, 20:29
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Thanks I will try again maybe I installed something wrong. So all I need to do is copy the optional Jirsy compatible data folder and single player export desc unit to EB Data? Could you maybe provide a more detailed step by step installation guide to install to Jirsys? I have to be doing something wrong?

Also when I replace the export desc unit text for single player I get this error:

Expected plus or minus indicator after mount type in mount effect in unit carthaginian infantry picked libyan phoenician...
03-04-2013, 04:48
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Okay, that's weird. I've managed to reproduce this error on my end, but I can't understand why it's happening. I cross-checked the lines between the SP and MP EDU and they're identical, and the MP EDU works... Both take a -1 to Elephants. I'll mess around with it and see what happens.

After I get this latest bug sorted, I'll do a more detailed installation procedure and I'll split it into two versions, one for Jirisys and one without.

Edit: Opening post updated!
03-04-2013, 22:04
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seer7

Okay, that's weird. I've managed to reproduce this error on my end, but I can't understand why it's happening. I cross-checked the lines between the SP and MP EDU and they're identical, and the MP EDU works... Both take a -1 to Elephants. I'll mess around with it and see what happens.

After I get this latest bug sorted, I'll do a more detailed installation procedure and I'll split it into two versions, one for Jirisys and one without.

Edit: Opening post updated!

Hooray it finally works thanks! Look forward to trying it out!

Just one note I do believe it conflicts with the City Mod as I get a city error when I quit the game. I use the City Mod with Jirsys.
03-05-2013, 09:48
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Quote:

Originally Posted by auboy105

Just one note I do believe it conflicts with the City Mod as I get a city error when I quit the game. I use the City Mod with Jirsys.

Yes, it would conflict as both this mod and Jirisys' Alexander version modify the EDB. From what I've gathered, so does his RTW release, but what it modifies is a mystery to me: it is obviously no barrier to the City Mod and it working together in your case. I've made an attempt in combining the City Mod with both editions of Jirisys and with my mod integrated as well. I had no trouble testing out the Alexander version (it loaded fine), but I am unsure of what the long-term campaign stability will be like. If it works, I'll attach it to the main post and we'll see how we go. Full credit for the City Mod goes, of course, to MarcusAureliusAntoninus. Also, the opening post has been updated to include a RTW release for Jirisys' mod.

Edit: The test was successful, and the opening post updated.
03-05-2013, 11:41
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

That fixed it for City Mod too! Thanks again for your efforts! Off to play!
03-05-2013, 12:16
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

I'm glad it's all working. Since the test was successful, I'll turn it into an 'official' release and stick it to the opening post. Thanks again.
03-07-2013, 05:42
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seer7

I'm glad it's all working. Since the test was successful, I'll turn it into an 'official' release and stick it to the opening post. Thanks again.

Just wanted to say I'm really liking the changes! Having some really epic battles and a great campaign!

You should post it here as well: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...dding-Projects
03-07-2013, 10:11
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

While a good idea, posting the mod to the TWC was about at pleasant as chewing glass. Can't edit posts (seriously?!), can't post download links, over-zealous language filter...

Here's the post, for what it's worth.

Edit: My grumbling aside, I'm glad you're enjoying it. I've also released something new in the OP for those who are interested.
03-08-2013, 08:19
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seer7

While a good idea, posting the mod to the TWC was about at pleasant as chewing glass. Can't edit posts (seriously?!), can't post download links, over-zealous language filter...

Here's the post, for what it's worth.

Edit: My grumbling aside, I'm glad you're enjoying it. I've also released something new in the OP for those who are interested.

Wow lots of options for people. I hate to ask but I actually play with city mod 5.1b. Could you provide this option as well?
03-08-2013, 10:32
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

May as well, though it is going to balloon the attachments to ridiculous proportions. That'll probably be the last 'compatibility project' for now. I'll get on it as soon as the TWC stops giving me a 500 - Internal Server Error.

Edit: Done and dusted. Check the OP.
03-11-2013, 19:19
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seer7

May as well, though it is going to balloon the attachments to ridiculous proportions. That'll probably be the last 'compatibility project' for now. I'll get on it as soon as the TWC stops giving me a 500 - Internal Server Error.

Edit: Done and dusted. Check the OP.

Great thanks! I get the same annoying error by the way ever since they changed their forum style!
03-27-2013, 17:36
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Hello everyone,

Just signing in to let you all know I'm still keeping an eye on the thread, and to thank those who downloaded for their support. It's really nice to see your work appreciated.
10-18-2013, 21:10
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Just wanted to say thanks again still really enjoying this mod most fun Ive ever had with EB! Quick question though I notice you limited Javelins ammo but Ive noticed that infantry such as Iberian Assault have unlimited pilum ammo. Is this working as designed?
10-31-2013, 10:50
Seer7

5 Attachment(s)

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Unlimited ammo? Definitely not something I intended. I'll check up on that.

On a similar note, I found some time to play through a few decades of a campaign recently, and I noticed that ranged units are rather sparse. I'm going to assume that's because of my third patch, since I don't remember it being this way in the past. I'll keep playing, but I'll tentatively recommend people only use Patch 3 for multiplayer/custom battles, in case it is affecting how much the AI trains them.

Edit: I've looked up the unit in both EDUs and tested the unit in a custom battle. Both entries in both EDUs list their ammo as 2, and my custom battle test reflected this. I'm assuming this is occurring in a campaign? In any case, it shouldn't be happening and I'm fairly confident I haven't made a mistake (this time!), so I'm perplexed. I suggest copying over this line from the multiplayer EDU into your single player EDU:

Code:

stat_pri 6, 10, pilum, 36.8, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1

The unit entry is 'iberian_infantry_dorkei_hatkafa_ibeerim', just use the find function. It's strange, but worked for patch two so why not this?

Also, I'll take the time to note here that, contrary to my opening post, some units with the 'prec' attribute have more than two javelins. One of the few examples is the Goidilic Laecha (Cladaca?), which use shorter 'darts' rather than javelins. I'm also considering raising the (average) number of javelins used by skirmishing units to three rather than two. This would still be half of what they were assigned before, but after playing a campaign I feel that two might be just a little harsh. I'm sure it's not beyond the realm of historical possibility. I'm not sure when I would get around this, but it's a possibility.

Thanks again for the feedback, and I'm glad you're enjoying it. I'll slap on some images from my Makedonia campaign. I'm taking screenshots of the world every ten years to see how the AI factions evolve. The last image is from a battle against Seleukid forces.

Attachment 11163 Attachment 11164 Attachment 11165 Attachment 11166 Attachment 11167
11-01-2013, 07:40
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seer7

Unlimited ammo? Definitely not something I intended. I'll check up on that.

On a similar note, I found some time to play through a few decades of a campaign recently, and I noticed that ranged units are rather sparse. I'm going to assume that's because of my third patch, since I don't remember it being this way in the past. I'll keep playing, but I'll tentatively recommend people only use Patch 3 for multiplayer/custom battles, in case it is affecting how much the AI trains them.

Edit: I've looked up the unit in both EDUs and tested the unit in a custom battle. Both entries in both EDUs list their ammo as 2, and my custom battle test reflected this. I'm assuming this is occurring in a campaign? In any case, it shouldn't be happening and I'm fairly confident I haven't made a mistake (this time!), so I'm perplexed. I suggest copying over this line from the multiplayer EDU into your single player EDU:

Code:

stat_pri 6, 10, pilum, 36.8, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1

The unit entry is 'iberian_infantry_dorkei_hatkafa_ibeerim', just use the find function. It's strange, but worked for patch two so why not this?

Also, I'll take the time to note here that, contrary to my opening post, some units with the 'prec' attribute have more than two javelins. One of the few examples is the Goidilic Laecha (Cladaca?), which use shorter 'darts' rather than javelins. I'm also considering raising the (average) number of javelins used by skirmishing units to three rather than two. This would still be half of what they were assigned before, but after playing a campaign I feel that two might be just a little harsh. I'm sure it's not beyond the realm of historical possibility. I'm not sure when I would get around this, but it's a possibility.

Thanks again for the feedback, and I'm glad you're enjoying it. I'll slap on some images from my Makedonia campaign. I'm taking screenshots of the world every ten years to see how the AI factions evolve. The last image is from a battle against Seleukid forces.

Attachment 11163 Attachment 11164 Attachment 11165 Attachment 11166 Attachment 11167

Strange yes I am playing a campaign with the same values. Maybe I am misunderstanding the game correctly. They throw twice and then attack. They then do the same to the next attacked unit. Is this how it works? Twice yes but unlimited.
11-02-2013, 11:59
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

I doubt you're misunderstanding the game. They're supposed to run out of ammo, after all. Do you get the same results in a custom battle? Also, did you try what I suggested with any success?

If not, you can try copying the entire unit entry from the multiplayer EDU into the singleplayer EDU - this is what solved past issues, so perhaps it might work where changing only a single line will not. Their ownership is the same so there's no need to worry about losing them mid-campaign. If that doesn't work I'm mystified, because I have no idea how to give a unit unlimited ammo beyond editing the user 'preferences' file (the 'LIMITED_AMMO' entry), which I assume you haven't done?
11-04-2013, 01:12
auboy105

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seer7

I doubt you're misunderstanding the game. They're supposed to run out of ammo, after all. Do you get the same results in a custom battle? Also, did you try what I suggested with any success?

If not, you can try copying the entire unit entry from the multiplayer EDU into the singleplayer EDU - this is what solved past issues, so perhaps it might work where changing only a single line will not. Their ownership is the same so there's no need to worry about losing them mid-campaign. If that doesn't work I'm mystified, because I have no idea how to give a unit unlimited ammo beyond editing the user 'preferences' file (the 'LIMITED_AMMO' entry), which I assume you haven't done?

Tried the multiplayer EDU and still the same thing :( So strange I have no idea why its not working for me? I checked the preferences file and limited ammo is true so not that either...
11-05-2013, 06:48
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Sorry to hear that auboy, but I'm out of ideas. Must be a very weird bug. Since it's just one unit I hope it doesn't ruin everything for you. I'll start up a Karthasdastim campaign and see if it's unique to you or not in the near future.
11-09-2013, 18:23
putoconcarne

1 Attachment(s)

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

So I downloaded what I think is the right file for Jirysis' Mega Mod Pack 1.2 for RTW (the one named "EDU Rebalance Mod for Jirisys' Mod (RTW).rar"), but I've been getting this error when I start up EB:
Attachment 11226
I'm sure I followed the right instructions. Could I be missing something? Maybe there's a module I didn't install like the cohorts thing?
11-14-2013, 19:29
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Sorry for the late reply, putoconcarne! You might have forgotten to copy over either the multiplayer or singleplayer EDU to your EB/Data folder, that's my guess at least. So just doublecheck you did that and, if not, I'll investigate further.
02-26-2015, 12:47
Baharr

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Hi, Seer7! I hope this doesn't count as thread necromancy :)

I just downloaded the mod and wanted to say it's great. I'm really impressed with the way you've rebuilt the EDU, in particular with the systematic armour system. EB is probably one of my favourite mods of all time due to its focus on historical accuracy (which makes it hugely immersive and a total joy to play), so something like this that makes units' stats consistent with their equipment, training, etc. in an ordered way is a huge plus for me. I'm really enjoying it so far; a touch of extra authenticity really goes a long way.

huge props!
03-10-2015, 19:11
Seer7

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Thanks for the kind words Baharr. I still check on the thread every now and then, and the way I see it: no posts, no problems. :2thumbsup:
03-10-2015, 21:08
Ludens

Re: EDU Rebalance Mod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seer7

Thanks for the kind words Baharr. I still check on the thread every now and then, and the way I see it: no posts, no problems. :2thumbsup:

Your diligence is appreciated.

:bow: