EDU Rebalance Mod

[vollorix]

Downloaded the files, took a look, and found some similarities to what i have done to the EDU myself.
I have modified my phalanx units to "short_pike" + "spear" attr.; gave phalangitai "spear" back etc.
But... as i wrote on this forums lately, the armour value is, apperently, the most significant value when it comes to autocalc ( after the number of men in a unit ), so by reducing the armour value of some units, especially those of "barbarian" factions, i think you will weaken them even more. The funny thing is that even in 3D mode on the actual battlefield the strongest side of a ( phalanx ) unit was considered the left one ( large hoplon shield etc. ), while the right one was concidered more vulnurable, but in RTW "reality" it´s quite the opposite: it´s the right flank of the unit ( battle line ) that is the strongest ( even with "6" shield value of a phalanx unit it is mostly weaker then the defence skill of the soldiers in a unit ), while armour serves as an overall protection, even from the rear. So, weakening some units concerning their armour, you also negate their overall defence skills, since on the left side the unit defence skills doesn seem to count.

I for myself have lowered the most armour values: -2, but didn´t touch the "barbarian" ( and some eastern units ), on the contrary, i´ve added armour for the price of defence skill ( -2 A = +2 def. ). But there are also exceptions like levies, and all the skirmisher units, which shouldn´t actually be able to fight any kind of infantry.
I also made all the slinger units of "20" men ( EDU entry ).

All units, except the dedicated skirmishers, but not Peltastai ( since they are actually also light/medium infantry ) gained a shield value upgrade of +1 ( the "6" value of the hoplites is already included ). This is because i really can´t stand when a skilled, valueable unit gets annyhilated by missiles even before it can do any damage, and the archers therefore do play an inadequate role on the battlefield, massacering half of an army ( if that´s would be the case historicaly, no one would field any kind of light/medium infantry, but stick with archers/slingers instead... )
But all phalangitai units have experienced a decrease of their shield values to "4" ( in phalanx mode they are still pretty invulnurable ); therefore i´ve upped the javeline attack value +1, and also increased the ammunition of many skirmishers ( +2, iirc ), and reduced their numbers to 50 instead of 60 ( edu entry ). Together with weakening their melee stats, they are what they should be: a pain in the a**, harrasing, destructing, hunting down routers, but not acting like light infantry, if not stated as such ( i.e. Celtiberian Skirmishers ). Most of "pure" skirmisher units got the lethality of their "spears" reduced ( to 0.1-0.12 max. ), and also their morale values ( 7 as default, not "good morale" in UI cards anymore, gah! ), and their stamina ( only "hardy", no more "marathons" ). All of them are now vulnurable to cavalry attacks, and really flee after a short fight ( as stated in most of descriptions ).

Another main change are the changes in unit production turns. 3 turns to train any unit, 4 for some more valueable, and 5 for the elites ( like Solduros, Triari, elite Phalangitai/Hoplitai ). Speaking of which, i´ve restrikted the max. armour value of infantry to 12 ( again, for elite units only ), and adjusted their numbers in some cases ( halfed the numbers of Triari, Picked Lybiphoenicians, Pedites Ordinarii for example ). This i did primary because of the affinity of the AI to train the most well armoured units ( along with the biggest men wise ), to stop "Triari spam" of the Romans, etc. etc.

I´ve also entirely removed the "ap" attribute from the infantry swords, but changed the lethality of short swords from 0.1 -> 0.13, all the kopis and falcata armed units became 0.14, resp. 0.15 for their elites, instead. This is mostly to balance those units a bit better: a low lethality "ap" sword is quite ineffective against unarmoured units with high attack/def. values ( like skirmishers... ), while it is way too good against armoured units.
The axes and maces etc. have experienced a lethality reduction: those units were even stronger then dedicated swordmen ( mostly semi/professional ) soldiers, while their attack values were in about the same ( 0.11-0.12 for most units; some, like elites or rare units, famous for their weapons have 0.13-0.14, not to screw them up against unarmoured untis, again; and also, while their mass production will not be possible due to their availibility + up to 5 turns to recruit them, - thats a bit more strategy orientated, rather battle map concerning, i guess ).

I´ve experienced with weapons delays for infantry ( to weaken spearmen, instead of lowering their attack values, and thus changing autocalc results on compaign map ), but a 25 delay vanilla value for a levy spearmen led to them becoming utterly useless, not beeing able to kill anyone...o0 ). I´ve kept the 10 delay for longswords though ( and all the two handers ), and now the shortswordmen seem to be able to keep up a bit, while not matching those units totaly.
Recently i´ve added the "mount_effect": horse -2 to all sword units; it´s not very well tested yet, though in one on one a unit of gaulic swordmen still can kick a**ses of the Brihentin heavy cavalry.

One thing i´ve noticed was that units ( found observing cavalry behaiviour ) with higher lethality for their primary weapon ( here: spear, with "ap" attribute ), won´t switch to their swords/mases, as long as the lethality value of the last are lower then of the primary weapons. Concidering this, and the fact that the weapons delay value doesn´t work on cavalry units at all, i´ve reduced the lethality values of their "ap" spears significantly, so that their sec. weapons would exceed the primary in lethality ( even if it´s a 0.1 value ). And thus, their sec. weapons all gained "ap" attribute to compensate for the "loss". But, at the same time, i´ve also significantly reduced the charge values of almost all cavalry units ( except Catas, Skythian nobles, Iberi "Lanceary which have not been that heavily armoured, it seems ): - 10 charge value for the primary spears, and -5 for the sec. swords/maces. Also switched 2-3 points of armour to defence skill for the most of heavy cavalry units. And, last, but not least, i gave "very hardy" to all cavalry units ( yea, maybe way too inaccurate, but it would be too much work to consider the quality of each of them... ) so that they now can actually ride around on the battlefield without getting exausted after a short time, and still can fight effectively after a short rest ( armoured men get tired quickly, but unarmoured horses hardly do likewise ? ) I hope the skelleton differenses are significant enough to make an actual difference ( speed, for example ).

Ah, yea, i gave "power_charge" attribute to the most "barbarian" sword ( read: Celtig and German ) units, and also set their "discipline" values to "low" instead of "impetouos" ( i have read smw. that the impetouos value works only really good for units with excellent morale +12, which most swordmen units lack. Barbaric Warlords became "power_charge" too, as did the Catas.
I also removed the "thrown" attribute from most of infantry units, since this value is not only responsible for the quickness of "realoading", but also seems to have an undesired effect against units with multiple sec. HP ( like Eles ). Speaking of those, i´ve upped their HP +1 for the animals. And, before i forget, i added +1 ( so totaly 2 ) sec. HP to all cavalry units, except the Generals BG ( after i´ve noticed hordes of lone generals running around with 3 gold chevrons, and taking entire settlements on their own ( one word: easterners ), lol. Also, the "very_hardy" doesn´t apply to BG cavalry as it does to all the others ( those aren´t ment to be the battle winners, imo, and the "standard" cavalry gains even more value, along with their additional strengh in autocalc due to the second HP for the horse ).

Most of my theoretical knowledge i´ve got from Aradan´s guide on TWC, as most of us, i guess. Some things i´ve noticed accidently, some are just changed to my personal gusto, lacking any historical, or logical, explanation, who knows. But i thought i´d share my experiences, maybe they´ll be of some use to anyone interested. Call it "food for thought" :)

[fomalhaut]

Can you upload a copy of your EDU? I love the idea of extended unit recruitment turns, although I think Levies should take only 1 turn.

[Seer7]

I do indeed use Alex.exe , and with DarthMod at that. regardless, playing as the Saba, for instance, is a total pain in the butt, since the AI does nothing but run in circles. I'm not kidding, it's boring beyond belief. Like, literally, the chases could go on infinitely around the battle square sometimes and i just quit out because WOW that's boring and a waste of time.

Unfortunately, my mod can do nothing about that and I have experienced it myself. I always play steppe factions with the battle timer on to avoid this.

But... as i wrote on this forums lately, the armour value is, apperently, the most significant value when it comes to autocalc ( after the number of men in a unit ), so by reducing the armour value of some units, especially those of "barbarian" factions, i think you will weaken them even more. The funny thing is that even in 3D mode on the actual battlefield the strongest side of a ( phalanx ) unit was considered the left one ( large hoplon shield etc. ), while the right one was concidered more vulnurable, but in RTW "reality" it´s quite the opposite: it´s the right flank of the unit ( battle line ) that is the strongest ( even with "6" shield value of a phalanx unit it is mostly weaker then the defence skill of the soldiers in a unit ), while armour serves as an overall protection, even from the rear. So, weakening some units concerning their armour, you also negate their overall defence skills, since on the left side the unit defence skills doesn seem to count.

Some of the 'barbarian' factions in my mod have had unit sizes increased and many have been compensated with additional defence skill to somewhat mitigate the armour nerf. I'd have to pour through my logs to give you an exact picture, but most units did not take anything more serious than a -2 or -1 to their armour. Some non-'barbarian' factions, like the Romans, are fairly 'weak' until they can pump out well armoured units, as they no longer have high armour values for the likes of early Hastati. As ever, I anticipate factions with a good armoured infantry and cavalry roster will dominate the late game, if they survive. Auto-calc was pretty brutal to the likes of the Sweboz even before my mod, I doubt it will make it much worse. This mod is mainly to benefit the player: though the Sweboz may get brutalised in auto-calc, their lack of armor is no barrier to a competent commander provided he/she is not fighting steppe nomads, in which case you better bring vastly superior numbers...and fight in a forest.

It makes sense that unit defence skills don't count on the shield side, but many units with sizable shields also received armour bonuses under my 'rebalancing' (as they were heavily armoured), so that may help compensate for comparatively anemic shield values. Indeed, that is one thing I forgot to mention in my opening post, shields in this mod essentially go like this, with some wiggle room of course:

Eg.
4 = Hoplon
3 = Makedonian Pelte/Thureos
2 = Illyrian Pelte
1 = Buckler

I am unsure what the long-term campaign consequences of all these changes will be, which is part of why I did this: altering just about every unit in the game means a campaign may take a very different course to what we are used to, or perhaps not. I have not had time for extensive campaign testing, but I assumed some might play and give me a picture. I spent just about all my free time over the holidays and new years to create the mod. Playing a long campaign or two is probably out of reach for me for some time, but once it's done, it's done.

[auboy105]

I have tried to use your mod with Jirsys Mod Pack but every time I launch it with your mod installed it crashes with the following error:

"Could not find soldier battle model for unit type 'roman infantry evocatae'"

Do you know how I can fix this? Would love to try your mod :(

[auboy105]

Agreed I would love to get a copy of this edu as well. Does it work with Jirsys mod pack?

[Seer7]

Opening post updated!

[vollorix]

Guys, this is not my thread, and i never intended to post a mini mode, actually. Besided, my edu is made for Ferromancer´s BI version, and it is even more tweaked then just adjusting those values ( as i wrote on the other topic, the unit availability is quite different; not through EDB, but through EDU - many factions can not recruit most of foreign units in specific areas, like Romans aren´t able to recruit any Celtic unit, aside from missile troops, cavalry, and later Neitos. ). So, i doubt, anyone of you can, and would like to, just integrate all the changes... ;)
Other then that, EDU editing is the easiest thing moding wise in RTW; it´s save game compatible ( if you don´t screw the lines, therefore make backup ), and Aradans EDU guide is very well written, and understandable, that you can experience on your own.

[auboy105]

Thanks for the update! Gonna go try now!

[auboy105]

Edit: I still get the same error? Can you get it to work with Jirsys mod pack?

[Seer7]

Updated again. Hopefully it will work this time. Sorry!