1-Islam Women And Sex (2nd Edition)

Hello to Dear Friends in totalwar.org this is the complete thread and the firs one had problems of posting due to my bad Interrnet. SORRY.

first of all sorry for my very simple English (maybe bad too! Lol!) but you should read this and be important to you if you consider yourself Human because these are the matters of humanity and you must put yourself in those peoples shoes that how they live and why they live like this!

You may say hey i know about islam it doesnt need to go deep its obvious, but your wrong! thats when your not faced with a Mullah or a muslim clergy! if you face those so called Moderate Muslims" you will see how you are WEAK against their speeches and self-justifications and explanations! so you Must read the things that Shut their Mouths and stop Anti-Women & Anti_Humanity Enemies.

I've Worked alot by getting the English Translation and Typing it SO PLEASE READ IT & CAREFULLY AND WITH DETAIL ONE BY ONE IF YOU WANT TO KNOW AND KNOW THE TRUTH, THESE ARE THE ISLAMIC REFERENCES AND I HAVE PUT THE JUDGE FOR YOU….
i thought that now most of you criticize the poor Defeated Christianity in Europe & North America (that’s because Christ did not bring Shariah and strict laws and doesn’t invite you to fight and hate by his name or it would not be weakened in these times) and i was surprised why here no thread was opened for Islamic Logical Criticize with Documents of themselves!! well maybe most or all of you dont know anything about islam just heard on TV that a Muslim suicide bombed himself and killed people! and you dont know that "WHY" ! you just hate them and their work! well this is not enough! you must know the roots of this crazy and evil works and for that you can not speak to their preachers & expositors! because they that call themselves "Moderate Muslims" only know to escape and run away from truth, the truth that they know too but i dont know why they still insist on it maybe fear because Allah in islam have a high pressure of FEAR than to kindness and tolerance.
criticize titles are too much! well i tell you that discussing and criticizing about islam takes too much read and researches, its not like any religion that for example christianity, because something like christianity does not have strict laws and laws and laws! even laws in the very personal life such as how to have sex and afterwards like islam!!!! but islam is totaly different because first in all of its years many so called islamic scholars and expositors saw many incompleteness, weakness and nonesenses in the quran and hadiths itself, then they started to explanation that its better to be called self-justification to fool the person that is in doubts. and thats why there are toooooo many books and histories about Qur'an and Islamic History and life of Muhammad and his Khalifs (successors).

so its better to go and ask those EX-MUSLIMS than nonebelievers (Atheists) or the muslim so called intellectuals. the people such as these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariwan_Halabjaee a Kurdish high Intellectual that was an ex muslim clergyman himself and later a good wise modern sociologist and psychologist. (Please Visit EXTERNAL LINKS in WIKIPEDIA page for more information about his works and Islam itself) and https://sites.google.com/site/charlesrcblog/home That was threatened to death by Islamic League & Islamic Alliance (CANT’t be called them Kurds) and he Fled to Sweden with Family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Rushdie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Kasravi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_dashti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawal_Saadawi
and many that its not in wikipedia or its not english and many i dont know yet.
but the interesting matter is that that most of them have been killed horribly or threatened to death or jailed all of their life.
so lets Start

well. i wanted to make a separate thread for each subject and discussion because each of them takes many many references and debates and talks. For example the KILLINGS and even MASS KILLINGS & GENOCIDE matter Allowed Quran & Islam and the Bloody Wars of Muhammad until Converted Arabia To Islam and after his death his successors The Rashedin KHALIFS and later khalifs Forcing Many Great Nations but in their weak period times, Terribly To Convert To Islam such as Syria, Egypt, Greater Iran and Kurdistans and Afganistan, Tabaristan, Armenians,North Africa &…. At Any Cost By Mass Killings and Making their Wife & Children as Their SLAVES and after the war, Jaziyah (Ransom) For The Whole life or must convert, as the jews paid after their Mass Killings in Israel, Judaea, and…..many other things but I want now to go for Women’s Place in Islam and Muhammad & Arabs View for now. so i will start with the first and important one >>>>>>>>>>>> THE WOMEN !!

Women In Islam

here is a very useful and valueable source to know more about Islam and Women and Sex find the book in your language Sex Sharia and Women, In History of Islam by Mariwan Halabjaee >> https://sites.google.com/site/charlesrcblog/home or search in google its indeed a great fanaticism free and with accepted references!

well that book can EASILY TELL YOU EVERYTHING here i just want to tell things i've personaly want to quote and talk about it. But I tell you I’ve not edited the translations, all the translations for English I’ve brought from http://quran.com/ AND http://www.noblequran.com/translation/ just because of poor English translation I had to Copy one of them or in some cases I had to mixture them. For example in matter of sex one said how you wish to sex one said only vagina, but I should go to Explanation of SAHIH AL BUKHARI and see that which one is Confirmed. BUT I’VE NOT EDITED or my own wish translation of The Qu’ranik verses and Hadiths its all from their Confirmed Sources.

in Islam, as all of you know, there is no respect for women and call them idiots and deceiver and feeble-minded and the Tools of Sheitan (Satan) & ……such as these. Women Can NOT EVEN PRAY TOGETHER with Men even Her Father Brother and Husband they must be separate and not see each other!!
But as I see NO DIFFERENCE Between JUDAISM and ISLAM because their believes and stories and importantly Religious LAWS (in Hebrew Sharia in Arabic Shari’at شریعت-See! Even in Roots of Language!) and therefor Muhammad’s Religion is an ARABIC MUHAMMADIC ISLAMIC EDITED OF JUDAISM!!

In Surat Al Nisa’ Ayat 1 says: “O mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife [Hawwa (Eve)], and from them both He created many men and women and fear Allah through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (do not cut the relations of) the wombs (kinship) . Surely, Allah is Ever an All-Watcher over you.”

That Yahuwa/ Allah has created Eve (Women) from the Adam (Man)….(Islam Says Women were Created from Left Ribs/Chests of Man!! well this is common between Semitic Religions but not logical! How can women be from man?! And why?!
In most NON-SEMITIC religions believe Women (mother) as the Nature and Birth God! In many Pagan religions like Hinduism and other small native religions. IN ZOROASTRIANISM Zarathushtra believes that first it was Women that was created by the God AHURAMAZDA and then man created from her, because it is women that with her complicated magnificent birth system CAN BIRTH and be pregnant of children boy and girl. It is women that can raise children without any real problem. And it is women that can have indefinite Patience, Love and affection for everyone.

Judaism/Islam/Quran/Muhamad’s view are from the limited local believes. In Sahara of Arabia and Ancient Judaea (Ancient Israel) that women in those regions had no rights or at least had lesser rights than men unlike Ancient India And Iran (specially in Ancient Kurdistan by the quotes of Archeologists and linguisticians like Vladimir Minorsky and Mackenzie &…) ANYWAY.........

Muhammad both Loves Women and Lock and hate them and tools for Sin of Man!!

The Hate of Women in Islam & Muhammad’s View:

First, Muhammad ’s Wives Situation:

Muhammad as the Confirmed Clergymen of Islam says had Many wives some 12 Wives and 28 Temporary Wife (Mot’a) and 18 Kanizs (Female Slave) well too much for a prophet as the jewish prophets had many wives and Female Slaves too.
But Muhammad Loved one of them very much somehow really felt love with her and her name was AYISHA عایشه a SIX YEAR OLD GIRL! Beautiful Daughter of ABU BAKR on of his first loyal followers and later First Khalif (Successors) He wanted to marry her but abubakr said how she is not even in the prescribed age?! Couldn’t you wait until she be 9 years old?! Muhammad accepted but at last he could not resist and marry her in her 8th years old but promised Abubakr not to have sex with her until age of 9!! While this was when Muhammad was 56 Years Old!! I Don’t say anything you name it what is this …………
The interesting matter was Muhammad never had a son! Despite in Islam having Daughter is a Shame but Muhammad himself despite all of those women that had sex with, had no son but too many Daughters that he Gaved (Sold!) to those Chief of Tribes as a sign of Alliance that one of them was ABUBAKR & OTHMAN!! (Third Khalif that wrote & published Qur'an)…….these things I told needs too much reference links in here, but I will assure you no mullah and muslim clergymen Deny these as its they natural for them and see no shame in it……..lets stick to the subject….

Surat 33 Al Ahzab Ayat 32-33:
32.“O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah , then do not be soft in speech [to men], lest he in whose heart is disease should covet, but speak with appropriate speech. 33. And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.”

I Could say his wives were the most wretched people because they should be in full obedience to Muhammad even after his death! They could never marry or get out of the house too much even when they have no husband!!

Muhammad told that all muslim men must observe order to their sex with their women means to sex with them with order one by one and not one twice….but himself has exception that his Allah Gifted to him!! When HAFSA one of his wives went out but suddenly forgot something, Muhammad didn’t know and she came back and saw Muhammad on MARIYAH's Back a Black Egyptian Slave (Sinai), having sex while he had sex with her twice before and HAFSA Complained Muhammad told her not to tell to AISHA his very beloved Teenage (Child yet) wife. But Hafsa could not resist and Told to Aisha what happened and Ayisha complained greatly to Muhammad! Then Muhammad was angry with Hafsa and he claim Allah Sent to him this verse:

In Surat 66 Al Tahrim Ayat 5:
"Perhaps his Lord, if he divorced you [all], would substitute for him wives better than you - submitting [to Allah ], believing, devoutly obedient, repentant, worshipping, and traveling - [ones] previously married and virgins."

Well Allah has given them Honor they are wives of Muhammad so if they do something not likely to Allah and his prophet, Allah can Divorce them all Easily and can bring wives better than them like Virgins!! This is the last warning you wives of Muhammad!! (Except Ayisha!!)

Women In Islam In General
as the Muhammad itself has a Hadith (Islamic Holy Exemplum - Tale - Narrative) that suddenly tells the women laughing, that the hell is full of them because their hatred is too much(!!) and dont obey and submitto their their husbands, although they all have deficiency in mind and even faith, women asked why, he told them because your women!! dont you have menstrual period?! they replied yes Holy prohpet, Muhammad replied thats the other reason! and therefor you can not even pray in those periods!! isnt affirm and evidence and witnesses of 4 women counted as 1 man? thats the other reason!!! (Sahih Al Bukhari - al haizh - tark al haez al thawm - hadith 298)
.......!!
the witness matter in sura 2 al baqara ayat(holy verse)282, says absolutely that "womens witness and evidence is equal to 1 men, because women does not have a perfect mind & wisedom therefor they will forget"!!

and Allah has forgotten that what about if men forget?! this directly means that women can not think appropriate because of faulty mind and are not to be trusted! as simple as that!!

while we have many worse verses that equals Women to Turd and Shi t !!

surat al nisa ayat 43:
“O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying or in a state of janabah (in and after Sex without washing the body), except those passing through [a place of prayer], until you have washed [your whole body]. And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself by call of Nature [After Shi tting Out] or you have touched or contacted women [such as Jima’ (Sex) and Touching directly] and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands [with it]. Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving.”

first you see that touching shi t is equal to touching women and men should not go to pray at those times!! you see how much Allah is giving value to women!
Second….No more to tell to women? Only men?! AT ALL, Al Nisa' in Arabic means Women! so it should be the Surat or topic & thread somehow to Women themselves and to address them speak with them. with this, and more i will bring for you soon, you will see Nothing i repeat NOTHING tell to women directly only addresses and says to men what to do(men i mean male not mankind) or says some things does not have relevance to the subject women!!

Well this is Allah’s knowledge about his creature! Look how Allah or Muhammad Describes women’s menstruation!! > Surat2 Al Baqarat ayat 222: “And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is a harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you (go in unto them in any manner as long as it is in their vagina or anus!!).. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves."

First why should Allah create harmful things for his creature and only to women?!
Second why they are not Pure?! Menstruation is only in the matrix and in the vagina of the women IF WE SUPPOSE ITS UNCLEAN (because I don’t know whats it good for) but whats that to do with whole body and closeness?! How creature of God will be unclean for such a natural matter that only its dirtiness is when the liquid comes out? Why someone should be left for herself and do not touched and do not be kind and jail her in home only because it is going to be menstruation?!! This is Allah’s goodness & Mercy?! AND his knowledge about his creature?!

Here’s a Short video Of Mariwan Halabjaee By HRS (Human Rights Services) about Surat Al Nisa’ ayat 34 how tells men to beat women if you Feared and maybe THOUGHT that they don’t want to obey you because Allah has given higher value to others (Men)!! > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO08Pxa7Kro

And here in al baqara 228 avouches that men have higher ranking than women :

“Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have more right to take them back in this [period] if they want reconciliation. And due to the wives is similar to what is expected of them, according to what is reasonable. But the men have a degree over them [in responsibility and authority]. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise”

Well, Allah was Arab! And its Sahraean Arab not even Sabaean Arab! Only thought that women in the world are women in Sahara in Arabia!! And didn’t know that in modern times there are women too that can WORK and feed the whole family!! EVEN in Zoroastriansim and Ancient Iran & Mesopotamia (Ancient Kurdistan) Women had high ranks in the society and could have war and battle decisions and could have select her husband by her own and will they were praised and highly respected before islam and could punish Men for being lazy or bad or disbehaving !!

This is the highest women’s Value in Islam: Surat al Baqara Ayat 223:

“Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation, Crop Them however you wish (have sexual relations with your wives in any manner - Vagina or Anus) and put forth [righteousness] for yourselves. And fear Allah and know that you will meet Him. And give good tidings to the believers.”

Well your women are your tilth !! Do with them however you wish Dear Muslim Men !!

In the same surat in ayat 15 says: “Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your women - bring against them four [witnesses] from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them [another] way.”

First she may had some needs that the man could not afford so why so evil with a traitor?! You could easily divorce her and shoot her out of your home as it was in ancient Arabia
SECOND why Allah has not told about anything about traitor men?! And a women what should do if his husband had illegal sex? Well they have been given small law later AFTER Muhammad that women too should bring FOUR MEN WITNESSES!! How on earth a feeble women that can not even chat with men can bring 4men in the time of her husbands sex?!! And if SHE Complained and COULD NOT PROVE IT THE WOMEN WILL BE PUNISHED WITH HIGH NUMBER OF LASHES!!
Third if an accuse be upon the women If she could not prove against it, then she will be condemned to ZINA زنا (Adultery) an her punishment is death or beaten/Stoned or jailed in home for all of her life!!

This is Allah’s Justice to his creation without any discrimination!

In the same sura ayat 11: “Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females. But if there are [only] daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one's estate. And if there is only one, for her is half. And for one's parents, to each one of them is a sixth of his estate if he left children. But if he had no children and the parents [alone] inherit from him, then for his mother is one third. And if he had brothers, for his mother is a sixth, after any bequest he [may have] made or debt. Your parents or your children - you know not which of them are nearest to you in benefit. [These shares are] an obligation [imposed] by Allah . Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.”

Well this is Allah’s Justice again not only Daughter but the mother too that has suffered much to raise children must have less estate & domain compared to Male!!

In the same surat ayat 122 says: “They ask your legal instruction concerning women, say: Allah instructs you about them, and about what is recited unto you in the Book concerning the orphan girls whom you give not the prescribed portions (as regards Mahr and inheritance) and yet whom you desire to marry, and (concerning) the children who are weak and oppressed, and that you stand firm for justice to orphans. And whatever good you do, Allah is Ever All-Aware of it.”

you see how equal between men & women in Islam and Muhammad's View?! And this shows men how to not to give their Mahr & Prescribed portions to orphans and make her marry free as your own wish (Men)!! (Mahr مهر- مهریه is some portions scribed and accepted before the marriage for the women that ONLY the father of the girl define it, for himself mainly. But the good original law is Zoroastrian as in Iranic Langs Mehr means Kindness & goodness Mithrayism is Greek and Mehrism is Iranic, but no mean in Arabic)

Anytime Anywhere women are evil plotter and deceiver!! >> Surat 12 Al Yusf (Joseph in Hebrew/Jewish) : “So when he (her husband) saw his [Yusuf's (Joseph)] shirt torn at the back; (her husband) said: "Surely, it is a plot of you women! Certainly mighty is your plot!”
why i dont have money to buy PS 4?! ah Damn You Women its your Plot many are poor and cant afford Money well !!!!

Now The Love of Women (Not Giving Love but Love to Sex and Slave & Lock Them in Home!)

Now lets see the other side and the high Lust that Muhammad had and Invites the Muslim men to. Well if we don’t mention the KID AYISHA again, Why lust?! See for yourself I can not name these as Love!:

Surat 4 Al Nisa’ Ayat 3:

“And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses [Captives and Slaves]. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].”

You See! Muhammad & Islam Hate Women, but Love to bring as many of them as they can! And Limitation is not for Kaniz (FemaleSlave) Or Mat’a (Temporary Wife!-Islamic Whore) and they do not have any limitation. Note that limit of 4 women in Islam was because Rich Men were few In Those Times before the Invasions, but if you have much money doesn’t matter and you can have many you like (Again men!) women are for your joy! So be like a rooster and have unlimited joy of women but don’t let anyone have it only for yourself!!

So now lets Look at the PARADISE that Muhammad Invited Muslim men to it and caused many Killings and destroying of Civilizations during Abubakr’s & Omar’s Invasions (1st & 2nd Cruel & Merciless Khalif-Successor) that were ready to do whatever in any cost to preach Islam with force and rape and Allah give them these things (its at below) and if they be Martyred it will be given them Instantly!! Now don’t surprise those suicide bomb themselves…..!!

-18 !!

Surat 52 At-Tur Ayat 20 – 23 – 24:

“20.They will recline (with ease) on thrones arranged in ranks. And We shall marry them to Houris (Girls in The Islamic Paradise Ready To Sex Anytime For the “Good” Muslim Men!) fair ones with wide lovely eyes…..23. They will exchange with one another a cup [of wine] wherein [results] no ill speech or commission of sin. 24. There will circulate among them [servant] boys [especially] for them, as if they were pearls well-protected.”

Surat Al Rahman Ayat 56:

“Wherein both will be those (maidens) restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them.“

Oh my God I love to go there !!!!:no:

And The Same At 70 – 76:
70. Therein (gardens) will be fair (wives) good and beautiful
71. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
72. Houris (beautiful, fair females) restrained in pavilions;
73. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
74. Whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them.
75. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
76. Reclining on green cushions and rich beautiful mattresses.
77. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

Exotic temptation huh?!:laugh4: You see how that Hymen that is an insult to Women is important by Muhammad & Allah has been repeated many times?! Now in 21th Century whats your idea about Hymen?! So that who insists of having a wife must and must have not opened hymen…in these days what do we call it?!......!

Surat 78 Al Naba’ Ayat 32 – 34:

32. Gardens and grapeyards;
33. And young Full-Breasted (mature-bossed) maidens of Equal Age;
34. And a full cup (of wine).

That’s ………!! :Zzzz::rolleyes:

Oh! Look at Surat 56 Al Waq’iah 9-38:

9. And those on the Left Hand (i.e. those who will be given their Record in their left hands), Who will be those on the Left Hand? (As a disgrace for them, because they will enter Hell).
10. And those foremost [(in Islamic Faith of Monotheism and in performing righteous deeds) in the life of this world on the very first call for to embrace Islam,] will be foremost (in Paradise).
11. These will be those nearest to Allah.
12. In the Gardens of Joy (Paradise).
13. A multitude of those (foremost) will be from the first generations (who embraced Islam).
14. And a few of those (foremost) will be from the later time (generations).
15. (They will be) on thrones woven with gold and precious stones,
16. Reclining thereon, face to face.
17. They will be served by immortal Beautiful Young boys, (What? Sodomy!!!!)
18. With cups, and jugs, and a glass from the flowing wine,
19. Wherefrom they will get neither any aching of the head, nor any intoxication. (its wine or juice!!!!)
20. And fruit; that they may choose.
21. And the flesh of fowls that they desire.
22. And (there will be) Houris (fair females) with wide, lovely eyes (as wives for the pious),
23. Like unto preserved pearls.
24. A reward for what they used to do.
25. No Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk) will they hear therein, nor any sinful speech (like backbiting, etc.).
26. But only the saying of: Salam!, Salam! (greetings with peace) !
27. And those on the Right Hand, - Who will be those on the Right Hand?
28. (They will be) among thornless lote-trees,
29. Among Talh (banana-trees) with fruits piled one above another,
30. In shade long-extended,
31. By water flowing constantly,
32. And fruit in plenty,
33. Whose season is not limited, and their supply will not be cut off,
34. And on couches or thrones, raised high.
35. Verily, We have created them (maidens) of special creation.
36. And made them VIRGINS.
37. Loving (their husbands only), equal in age.
38. For those on the Right Hand.

You see that how deceiver Allah is?! Why the things that is Haram and Forbidden in this world but It will be good and free in the other world because you have done what Allah pleased in this world?! So where is the difference? Why not spending Lust in this world with your wife with love and let your daughters enjoy what is in the Paradise in this world too? Or it should Only Men Enjoy and have pleasure?! WHERE IS THE PLEASURE and WHAT IS THE PRIZE FO BEING GOOD WOMEN IN THE PARADISE?! But it seems women are not addressed because Quran is a Men Adorer and see Men Only as The Overlord and the “Perfect Human” and with these, Women are nothing to be placed and addressed in Quran and the Way of Life! They must Only be Limited To home and do whatever Man says raise children be ready anytime for the men’s sex and should not complain even if they are in not a good situation!!


Well if you be a good Muslim and make people muslim even with force and kill for the Allah and lock your wife and kill Love in this world. you will go to Paradise drink one by one cups of Wine (that is forbidden in this world too!!) and they will give you Houris and other Pleasureable things in Paradise, well in this world pederasty and Sodomy and Gayism is forbidden but will be free for you in Paradise and Boys Like Pearls are ready for you if your tired from Sexing too much from Houris!! NOW Wouldnt you like to be Muslim?! Really?! LOL !! I wAnT too !! I WILL MAKE THE WHOLE USA MUSLIM :soapbox: :furious3: that may Allah give me 72 Houris With Wide Big Eyes and **** and 72 Young Pearly Boys and cups of wine milk and honey!! Why Not who dislikes it?!:laugh4::rolleyes:

Well, the MULK ملک (Domain for goods-Slave for humen in Arabic) matter, takes much discussion and a separate thread. For now to be focused on women we describe KANIZ کنیز (Female Slave) in Islam.
Well as Allah (I cant call GOD of universe!) has not banned Slavery in Islam even has amplified as a “Good Thing” and as you know Slavery will bring much profit and power for that nation that we can example the corrupt & “Civilized” Wild Roman Empire - United Kingdom - USA until 1970s -Aztecs - Hellenics &..... Islam declares its Slavery is far much better and has given much points & advantages for them and its is not to be compared with all slaver Empires!!
My first Wonder is at all why SLAVERY in a religion that claims equality in human and preaches value and kindness of human?!?!
And the other wonder is that if this is advantages so what is disadvantages?!!!

What Is Kaniz ?! Kaniz is an female slave caught as captive or prisoner by the War as spoil & trophy & prize of the war by the victor. Note that being converted to Islam or even be Muslim does not change the place and value of the captive & slave, although even the declaration of Holy Marriage that is called Nikah نکاح in Arabic, that is an coercion and necessary in Sharia of Islam, it is not needed for the Kaniz and you can do whatever you want with the slave you can even lend or gift her to anyone you want!! Well as I said it is ملک Mulk (domain like Goods) in general and Kaniz is a part of it plus your legal wife!! Here is some quotes of the Quran and a sign of Generousity for the slaver MEN !!:

Surat 23 Al Mu’mnun Ayat 5-6: "5.And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts) 6.Except from their wives that their right hands possess (the captives and slaves), for then, they are free from blame”

Well here says the slaves (Kanizs) can be whatever even nude to their master and slaver because they will not be included as perfect humans and have not much value!!"

In Al Baqara ayat 221 says: “And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe. And a believing slave woman is better than a [Free] polytheist Women, even though she might please you. And do not marry polytheistic men [to your women] until they believe. And a believing slave is better than a polytheist, even though he might please you. Those invite [you] to the Fire, but Allah invites to Paradise and to forgiveness, by His permission. And He makes clear His verses to the people that perhaps they may remember.”

You see that a free women even if she is a good person but because she does not blindly accepts Islam is an evil work and against your God! and MARRIAGE in Islam IS NOT BASED ON LOVE or Anything Emotionaly! SECOND this tells how a Kaniz & women in slavery in islam are less value and their believers are a little better than polytheists but can not be better than non slave muslim women!

In Surat Al Nisa’ Ayat 24 for Marriage Conditions says:

“And [also prohibited to you are all], married women except those your right hands possess [You domains and spoil & trophy of war, Such as Slaves & Kanizs]. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.”

These says that Slaving is Allowed In Islam and not a bad thing therefor you can even make her for yourself even if she has married before!! it is legal And has not told even if she is Muslim or not important is that you can have them as Slave and have Sex with them how you Please.

Dear Friends, These were just titles-big titles that I brought for yo. If I type all of the Qur’anik Weaknesses and nonesenses and evil verses it would take more than 1000 page of book!! AS I LINKED YOU FOR MORE These were just titles for you to know what is real Islam and WHAT MADE IT POWERFUL to invade & abuse everyone and force convert them or be killed or pay ransom heavily for the life! DON’T THINK that this beautiful middle east, The Cradle of First Civilizations (Except Arabia and Israel) was like this sh it that now is! I told you for the examples of Iran & Kurdistan & Zoroastrianism and many other things before ISLAM & JUDAISM were CIVILIZED & Beautiful and place of Peace.
so that was it i hope be useful for you.
i will be glad to see your ideas and views and explanations and discussion
you people just should make this thread alive and Sticky so alwayse be in top so others that didnt saw can view and know it too.
thank you all for reading article....:bow:

Wow...

I'm honestly speaking flabbergasted.

EDIT: Can't wait for the third edition...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Wow...

I'm honestly speaking flabbergasted.

EDIT: Can't wait for the third edition...

---

Lol!! which part EXACTLY made you flabbergasted?!

and...actually it will be alot i linked the books of Mariwan Halabjaee and Ali Dashti and ..... for you to read more and more deeply ready to criticize Islam even with the highly cunning MODERATE ISLAMISTs

in near future i will post NEW THREAD About Islam, Religious Murder, Terror , Butcher, Genocide.
and i think i will have 3 threads about islam three important of course

you people just should make this thread alive so alwayse be in top so others that didnt saw can view and know it too.
thank you all

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus

Lol!! which part EXACTLY made you flabbergasted?!

and...actually it will be alot i linked the books of Mariwan Halabjaee and Ali Dashti and ..... for you to read more and more deeply ready to criticize Islam even with the highly cunning MODERATE ISLAMISTs

in near future i will post NEW THREAD About Islam, Religious Murder, Terror , Butcher, Genocide.
and i think i will have 3 threads about islam three important of course

you people just should make this thread alive so alwayse be in top so others that didnt saw can view and know it too.
thank you all

---

I for one vote to Sticky this thread.

It could serve as role model for posting etiquette. "How to kill a thread before it even got started".

When I say you killed the thread I of course allude to your almost INSANE ability to knit it all together into an unassailable package...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I for one vote to Sticky this thread.

It could serve as role model for posting etiquette. "How to kill a thread before it even got started".

When I say you killed the thread I of course allude to your almost INSANE ability to knit it all together into an unassailable package...

---

thanks its your kind, you didnt say what exactly made you flabbergasted?!

and how ow this thread will be sticky is it available?! and what should be done for it?! will you help?!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus

thanks its your kind, you didnt say what exactly made you flabbergasted?!

and how ow this thread will be sticky is it available?! and what should be done for it?! will you help?!

---

I think it is the sheer size of the post.

It takes a long, long time just to scan it.

You must have spent quit some time putting it together.

I doubt that many will bother to read it and would quickly dismiss it a ranting, without bothering to know what you are saying.

It does put a lot in perspective.

Religion is what some men think it takes to reach God.

It reveals their predigests short comings and fears without doing much to inspire grace.

The creator did not put those restrictions on the created, men did.

It is pretty interesting what men can convince others is god’s will and what rubbish they can attach to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fisherking

I think it is the sheer size of the post.

It takes a long, long time just to scan it.

You must have spent quit some time putting it together.

I doubt that many will bother to read it and would quickly dismiss it a ranting, without bothering to know what you are saying.

It does put a lot in perspective.

Religion is what some men think it takes to reach God.

It reveals their predigests short comings and fears without doing much to inspire grace.

The creator did not put those restrictions on the created, men did.

It is pretty interesting what men can convince others is god’s will and what rubbish they can attach to it.

---

well i got a headache and eye ache after ending this article
well i did not quiet got what do you mean
but yes i agree that those restrictions came from the men
i agree with you LAST sentence and yes well i believe in a greater creator of this universe or this world would be a nonesense completeley
thanks for your good opinion

I lol'ed.

Moderator should edit a poll in.

Did you bother reading the OP? Yes/No.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I for one vote to Sticky this thread.

It could serve as role model for posting etiquette. "How to kill a thread before it even got started".

When I say you killed the thread I of course allude to your almost INSANE ability to knit it all together into an unassailable package...

---

i Only See This Friend that has appreciated my hard worke.

i dont say after reading you should appreciate me i say you should at least say an opinion!!

what if i would talk about skotch Whiskey or facism or the surgery of rihanna or lady ****ing gaga?!
so it would full of replies and views

i think no one in this specially the 1rst world cares about nothing important about mankind matters only world-minded matters (Materialism)

well what should i say..............

I feel bad now :(

Anyway, KurdishSpartakus, you have a refreshing perspective. I would love to see you participate more on these boards, and not just in the threads you yourself make. That would also teach you how the discussion are run around here, and you would have an easier time debating your hearts topics later on.

I don't think lady Gaga or surgery of Rihanna is very popular topics around here. Please make sure you don't vent your frustration at the people around you, at us. Yeah, the common guy is a blathering fool. This however is where you come to get a break from it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I feel bad now :(

Anyway, KurdishSpartakus, you have a refreshing perspective. I would love to see you participate more on these boards, and not just in the threads you yourself make. That would also teach you how the discussion are run around here, and you would have an easier time debating your hearts topics later on.

I don't think lady Gaga or surgery of Rihanna is very popular topics around here. Please make sure you don't vent your frustration at the people around you, at us. Yeah, the common guy is a blathering fool. This however is where you come to get a break from it.

---

ah dear friend i quoted yours but my i did not mean you yours was an example of at least giving a BIT of importance about the long work someone does

so dont feel bad i thank you greatly :bow:

my mean was people here, giving importance about worthless and unimportant matters in the WORLD and Humanity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus

i think no one in this specially the 1rst world cares about nothing important about mankind matters only world-minded matters (Materialism)

---

I see.

Only the things you believe are important are actually important. The opinions of others are irrelevant. How delightfully arrogant of you. One might even call that sentiment ignorant....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I see.

Only the things you believe are important are actually important. The opinions of others are irrelevant. How delightfully arrogant of you. One might even call that sentiment ignorant....

---

Do we really have to remind you of the hundreds of times where you dismissed arguments of others by claiming the topic doesn't matter anyway after you had already engaged in a long discussion about it and ran out of arguments?
I would like to refer you to Matthew 7, 1-5: http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/7

no! i told you why?!
im asking you honestley if you are! if i would open thread about RIHANNA AT TOILET (Sorry!) or bRad Pitts goes to skydiving

flows of replies and views would come


i was just surprised after ALL of those typings and references very few people cared!! but that is when most of you hate Islam's hatred but you dont even read and dont care but your hatred is in its place!!

and dear hussar please stop satirize me!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus

no! i told you why?!
im asking you honestley if you are! if i would open thread about RIHANNA AT TOILET (Sorry!) or bRad Pitts goes to skydiving

flows of replies and views would come


i was just surprised after ALL of those typings and references very few people cared!! but that is when most of you hate Islam's hatred but you dont even read and dont care but your hatred is in its place!!

and dear hussar please stop satirize me!!

---

Bad bad Husar :yes:

Anyway, I think most people around here already acknowledge that Islam is ****. So you are kind of kicking in an open door. Seriously speaking, it's not like anyone here would laud Islam for its progressive gender movement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Bad bad Husar :yes:

Anyway, I think most people around here already acknowledge that Islam is ****. So you are kind of kicking in an open door. Seriously speaking, it's not like anyone here would laud Islam for its progressive gender movement.

---

Should we see if it's possible to reframe it to something useful?

Fundamentalist interpretation of Islam is bad for women's rights, agreed. So how to counteract it, both nationally and internationally?

Taking the streets and chanting "Islam is evil" isn't exactly going to make people to renounce Islam and starting to adopt humanistic goals instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ironside

Should we see if it's possible to reframe it to something useful?

Fundamentalist interpretation of Islam is bad for women's rights, agreed. So how to counteract it, both nationally and internationally?

Taking the streets and chanting "Islam is evil" isn't exactly going to make people to renounce Islam and starting to adopt humanistic goals instead.

---

Nationally, start fascilitating it, and stop making excuses for it. Internationally, nothing. Humanism? In islam? How? Islam is denial of humanity, islam is submission, see it working?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus

no! i told you why?!
im asking you honestley if you are! if i would open thread about RIHANNA AT TOILET (Sorry!) or bRad Pitts goes to skydiving

flows of replies and views would come


i was just surprised after ALL of those typings and references very few people cared!! but that is when most of you hate Islam's hatred but you dont even read and dont care but your hatred is in its place!!

and dear hussar please stop satirize me!!

---

That's your prejudice talking, I'm afraid.

A Brad Pitt or Rihanna thread haven't even been made on this board. Instead, we have long discussions on topics like Britains relation to the EU, Wealth distribution, Gun laws and the situation in Syria, to name a few of the threads on the first page here.

We have also had long discussions on the nature of Islam, and countless threads on violence and other issues relating to Islam or the muslim world. The reason this thread doesn't get many replies isn't because we're not interested in discussing Islam. We've done so many times. The reason few people are responding to this thread, is because the OP is badly written with countless errors, logical fallacies and invalid presumptions about knowledge and motivations.

Starting a thread with a statement that we're all dumb and clueless isn't going to generate much debate.


On a final note, I do believe most of the posters here have a more nuanced view of Islam than simple hatred.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

That's your prejudice talking, I'm afraid.

A Brad Pitt or Rihanna thread haven't even been made on this board. Instead, we have long discussions on topics like Britains relation to the EU, Wealth distribution, Gun laws and the situation in Syria, to name a few of the threads on the first page here.

We have also had long discussions on the nature of Islam, and countless threads on violence and other issues relating to Islam or the muslim world. The reason this thread doesn't get many replies isn't because we're not interested in discussing Islam. We've done so many times. The reason few people are responding to this thread, is because the OP is badly written with countless errors, logical fallacies and invalid presumptions about knowledge and motivations.

Starting a thread with a statement that we're all dumb and clueless isn't going to generate much debate.


On a final note, I do believe most of the posters here have a more nuanced view of Islam than simple hatred.

---

oh Oh Oh Oh Calm Down People Calm Down my friend HoreTore,
Believe me im not that evil you think!! its just many many misunderstandings!
i never called you dumb just complained that why now that all of you hate islam and know Islam as hatred thing you must know WHY ?!

and i can easily swear that before my thread no one knew about those things about women in Qur'an and Islam's Shariah

i said you just watch it on TV but you should know WHY? that is because if you contact or just see a MODERATE MUSLIM (!!) you can never convince them that they are wrong but inverse they can convince you easily because they are trained for that!
they claim Muslims make ISLAM bad but actually ISLAM ITSELF IS NOT THAT AND ITS GOOD AND FOR PEACE! and i brought you from their references that they are liars and just know run away & bypass the truth!!

that was all i meant not to hate anyone of you or call you dumb! i was just complaining............by the way i have respect for you all and wish you the best in life dear friends!

Accept my Regards and Respects

Well you are all dumb and clueless, you look at the islam with western eyes, they do not, it's a weakness that you do. Instant reaction, every time every day; christians isn't everything either I mean uh uh uh.... You can't compare the islamic world to the western world, that's not prejudice that's a fact. Bringing in islam in the western world doesn't change islam, no matter what. It's a different kind of animal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus

just complained that why now that all of you hate islam and know Islam as hatred thing you must know WHY ?!

---

And I tried to explain to you that this assessment of the forum's knowledge of Islam is incorrect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

And I tried to explain to you that this assessment of the forum's knowledge of Islam is incorrect.

---

Is it, are you up for a challenge. You get a week extra-ultra free use of an appartment a friend of mine has in Amsterdam, and you bring a friend. Downside to it is that I will tell everyone you are a gay couple. How do you think your week is going to look like?

Gays get beaten up, it's just how it is, nothing we can do and why should we.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Gays get beaten up, it's just how it is, nothing we can do and why should we.

---

Kidding me, it is utterly unacceptable that gays get beaten up. It's utterly unacceptible that women are harassed. Public secret: gay sex is very normal among muslim youth, and they aren't even gay. Dutch girls don't want them, and their own is kinda complicated because of what some people respect.

Sexual frustration, directed at women and gays.

Oy vey!

Darn, how boring. Judging by the title of this thread I thought it was going to be about something else entirely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Kidding me, it is utterly unacceptable that gays get beaten up. It's utterly unacceptible that women are harassed. Public secret: gay sex is very normal among muslim youth, and they aren't even gay. Dutch girls don't want them, and their own is kinda complicated because of what some people respect.

Sexual frustration, directed at women and gays.

---

It's just how it is, the international racist conservatism and their elephant who looks like a donkey mouse of a leader want it so. The gays will never like our values or try to adapt, it just doesn't work, nothing we can do.

Friend dont you think the thread and your post is going Off-Topic?!...............

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Is it, are you up for a challenge. You get a week extra-ultra free use of an appartment a friend of mine has in Amsterdam, and you bring a friend. Downside to it is that I will tell everyone you are a gay couple. How do you think your week is going to look like?

---

LOL !!!!! can i be in challenge despite we are somehow allies?! please just invite me to your country and with normal use is accepted too!! Thanks!! :2thumbsup::yes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

And I tried to explain to you that this assessment of the forum's knowledge of Islam is incorrect.

---

i meant the whole 1st world specially the westerns like canada & USA & Europe.......not only this forum
anyway You should answer Fragony............what say you HoreTore do you accept a challenge ?!! :pleased:

OK, so it seems like everybody in this thread agrees that a fundamentalist interpretation of the Koran would cause a lot of violence and oppression towards women in a given society.

To try and rescue the discussion here, how about this - we consider how far the Islamic world is still driven by the Koran, and whether or not it is possible for it to free itself from the shackles of the Koran.

Personally I think that right now the Islamic world is going through something of a Protestant Reformation. Ease of travel and communication has allowed for a sense of global Islamic brotherhood to replace the old tribalism and local ethnic squabbles that previously defined politics in the region. Hence why there are so any international Muhijadeen in Syria, Somalia and the like. The mass spreading of literacy and education has fostered a generation able to read the Koran and the Hadiths for themselves (you could say the internet is their printing press), without the ability to contextualise it in the way that dedicated scholars could. Hence why so many of al-Qaeda types are middle-class university graduates. Discontent with both the secular and religious establishment has fostered a sort of grassroots radicalism that has naturally thrived in the turmoil of recent revolutions and civil wars. All these trends tend towards a particularly fundamentalist and populist vision of Islam - hence why women are increasingly faring poorly in much of the Islamic world.

Thoughts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Thoughts?

---

Remove kebab before kebab removes you.

Nice in your face docu
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

OK, so it seems like everybody in this thread agrees that a fundamentalist interpretation of the Koran would cause a lot of violence and oppression towards women in a given society.

To try and rescue the discussion here, how about this - we consider how far the Islamic world is still driven by the Koran, and whether or not it is possible for it to free itself from the shackles of the Koran.

Personally I think that right now the Islamic world is going through something of a Protestant Reformation. Ease of travel and communication has allowed for a sense of global Islamic brotherhood to replace the old tribalism and local ethnic squabbles that previously defined politics in the region. Hence why there are so any international Muhijadeen in Syria, Somalia and the like. The mass spreading of literacy and education has fostered a generation able to read the Koran and the Hadiths for themselves (you could say the internet is their printing press), without the ability to contextualise it in the way that dedicated scholars could. Hence why so many of al-Qaeda types are middle-class university graduates. Discontent with both the secular and religious establishment has fostered a sort of grassroots radicalism that has naturally thrived in the turmoil of recent revolutions and civil wars. All these trends tend towards a particularly fundamentalist and populist vision of Islam - hence why women are increasingly faring poorly in much of the Islamic world.

Thoughts?

---

most of yours is right but

i see you all looking to Islam as your westerns culture (except Fragony)
i dont think we have PROTESTANT islam! PROTESTANT in christian happened because martin luther did not want to blindly believe those catholic priests,with the archbishops and cardinal's corruption, and they made laws which was not in Christ mind! so PROTESTANTISM happened because people too were tired of them!

but Islam is different in islam there is no edition in the shariah and Quran what has said and written its the unlimited perfect truth and came from Allah (i dont call it god) so you cant change Islam or even Update it!

those things you said its because some are not fundamentalists are just Normal Muslims and are not fundamentalist for YOU not their FAMILY!!

we must not look Islam & Judaism as this softness !!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus

most of yours is right but

i see you all looking to Islam as your westerns culture (except Fragony)
i dont think we have PROTESTANT islam! PROTESTANT in christian happened because martin luther did not want to blindly believe those catholic priests,with the archbishops and cardinal's corruption, and they made laws which was not in Christ mind! so PROTESTANTISM happened because people too were tired of them!

but Islam is different in islam there is no edition in the shariah and Quran what has said and written its the unlimited perfect truth and came from Allah (i dont call it god) so you cant change Islam or even Update it!

those things you said its because some are not fundamentalists are just Normal Muslims and are not fundamentalist for YOU not their FAMILY!!

we must not look Islam & Judaism as this softness !!

---

It's interesting that you give the recent fundamentalist stance as a core value in Islam.

To give an example. The Talibans blew up some huge Buddhist statues in 2001 because of idolism. That's kind of a good example of the intolerance of the Talibans.
Thing is, that they were the first muslims in about 1300 years that came to that conclusion and idolism has always been seen as bad according to the Koran. Are you going to claim that it took them 1300 years to discover that obvious core value?

You can compare with the fundamentalist movements of Christianity in the US (I'm sure there's other places that has them as well, the US ones are simply more publically known). Snake handling and not dying from it is proof that you're in God's grace for example (thanks to a literal interpretation of one passage in the whole Bible).
Also, there's passages like the second ammendment, from the US constitution "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". It's even intended to be red literally, but even there, there's alot up for interpretation (a minor one is to determine what arms means. A bazooka? A tank? A LMG is a "small arm". We had the nuclear arms race during the cold war. There's suitcase nukes that you can bear).

And at the very least, new technologies needs to be interpretated through the Koran. Ergo, eveyone dealing with this with a tempered mind will realise that even a literal interpretation isn't the unlimited perfect truth and anyone stating that has an agenda. And by some mysterious reason, most fundamentalists are prone to the strict interpretation that gives them power, rather than a generous interpretation. It's almost like the have an agenda and is driven by self interest.

Rhyfelwyr, something to add. The origin of funtamentalistic Islam was about 1900 iirc. Basically the Arab world came to the conclusion that they were backwater places at the time and tried to decide why that was. One group went secular (Islam is holding us back) and the other group fundmentalistic (we have fallen from the true path). The secular group won (mostly) and established secular dictorships. The fundamentalist groups remained in the opposition, so when the secular dictorships weakened/fell they were already in place to take power.

I started typing a reply to Rhyfelwyr's post yesterday evening, but I didn't get the chance to finish it. I haven't read the other responses yet.

I agree with most of what you outlined in your post, but I think your approach is a bit flawed here and there.

Quote:

---

Muhijadeen

---

Mujahideen(from Cl. Arabic مجاهدین; mujâhidîn)

Quote:

---

The mass spreading of literacy and education has fostered a generation able to read the Koran and the Hadiths for themselves

---

I disagree. Quranic schools have been around for ages, so male literacy in the Arab-Muslim world has always been pretty high (as learning was not restricted to just to clerics) and the Quran was more accessible to Arabic-speaking Muslims than the Bible was to European Christians (seeing how Classical Arabic continued to influence the spoken variants of Arabic throughout the centuries).

Quote:

---

To try and rescue the discussion here, how about this - we consider how far the Islamic world is still driven by the Koran, and whether or not it is possible for it to free itself from the shackles of the Koran.

---

I think this is this most important issue right now. We are pretty much all aware of the different legislative interpretations of the Quran and their respective jurisprudential schools (cf. madhhab), but what I think is lacking in most Islamic studies departments is a more sociological-anthropological approach to actual Muslim belief: recording and analysing statements made by religious scholars is definitely useful and interesting, but it doesn't necessarily reflect what Muslims actually believe​.

Quote:

---

Ease of travel and communication has allowed for a sense of global Islamic brotherhood to replace the old tribalism and local ethnic squabbles that previously defined politics in the region.

---

Hmm, I think you're only half-right here. A sense of global community and brotherhood has always existed in the Islamic world; and although it is true that with modern methods of transportation globalisation has increased, but it had always been a part of Islamic culture (e.g., the pilgrimage to Mecca). When reading travelogues from medieval Muslim travelers, it's very evident that people were already moving from place to place.

Make no mistake, tribal allegiances still play an incredibly important role. Also, ethnic struggles didn't really play that big a role until the 19th century.

Quote:

---

Hence why so many of al-Qaeda types are middle-class university graduates. Discontent with both the secular and religious establishment has fostered a sort of grassroots radicalism that has naturally thrived in the turmoil of recent revolutions and civil wars.

---

This.

But in all, I think it's not entirely correct to compare recent evolutions in Islam with the Protestant Reformation. There may be some similarities, but I feel that it would be more fruitful to analyse these evolutions in their own context.

And what's the purpose of the muhajideen Hax. There are various degrees of being a mujahideen, those who spread islam by word and those who spread it with violence. But the purpose is the same. Violence takes presedence as the the importance of verses and the hadith are reversed chronologcally in importance. So a later verse oudoes an older one.

i agree with Fragony!

beside i clearly want you hax and ironside. in a simple word you agree with islam (not muslims islam itself in quran and hadiths) or not or something else?!


(ah god thanks here is better at least! in twcenter they only focused on WHY i have BOLDED some words!! and after sometime they closed the thread!! this is Democracy & freedom of speech!!)

@Hax: good points, I was just throwing things out as an idea; you are better placed to know than me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ironside

Rhyfelwyr, something to add. The origin of funtamentalistic Islam was about 1900 iirc. Basically the Arab world came to the conclusion that they were backwater places at the time and tried to decide why that was. One group went secular (Islam is holding us back) and the other group fundmentalistic (we have fallen from the true path). The secular group won (mostly) and established secular dictorships. The fundamentalist groups remained in the opposition, so when the secular dictorships weakened/fell they were already in place to take power.

---

I don't think it is true that fundamentalist Islam emerged only in 1900 AD. Fundamentalism has ebbed and flowed continually throughout Islam's history. Muhammad himself was a puritanical warrior-prophet, and well... the earliest Muslims were obviously fundamentalists since they followed the fundamental principles Muhammad set down. When the Abbasids overthrew the Umayyads a large part of their justification was on returning to some sort of golden age of Islamic morality. The Murabitun of the medieval period were notoriously fundamentalist and banned music, imposed strict Islamic dress and segregation and trashed much of the vibrant culture that existed in Ghana and Andalusia prior to their excursions. Certain Fatimid rulers were also strongly opposed to idolatry (most notably this guy) and trashed Christian and Jewish places of worship in Jerusalem and forced Jews to wear decorative calves to remind them of Aaron's idolatry.

If you are talking about modern fundamentalism, then yes that emerged with the Wahhabi movement, but that is only a small part of the fundamentalist story in Islamic history.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus

what say you HoreTore do you accept a challenge ?!! :pleased:

---

I have another challenge for you two. I will send you and Fragony to a mostly Christian country, in purely Christian neighbourhood and tell everyone you're gay. How about that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus

i agree with Fragony!

beside i clearly want you hax and ironside. in a simple word you agree with islam (not muslims islam itself in quran and hadiths) or not or something else?!

---

Let see now. Do I believe in Mohammed and Allah? No.
Do I consider fundamentalistic Islam to be incompattable with western humanistic values? Yes.
Do I consider moderate Islam to be incompatitable with western humanistic values? No.
Do I consider fundamentalistic Islam as a sort of natural Islam? No.
Do I consider claiming that fundamentalistic Islam is a sort of natural Islam to be stupid? Yes.

Well I wouldn't consider it stupid if I was named the Joker and wanted to watch the world burn. If you got a bunch of fanatics claiming to represent true Islam, then it's quite stupid to say "hey muslims, those guys you call fanatics are representing true Islam. Wanna join our non muslim club instead?".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

If you are talking about modern fundamentalism, then yes that emerged with the Wahhabi movement, but that is only a small part of the fundamentalist story in Islamic history.

---

I was more pointing out that modern fundamentalism has older roots to draw on. But you seem to have known this already. Going fundamentalist isn't a new phenomena (Sweden was most fundamentalist about 1600-1700 legal wise for example), but to counteract what KurdishSpartakus is saying, there's no obvious red thread of fundamentalism to follow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I have another challenge for you two. I will send you and Fragony to a mostly Christian country, in purely Christian neighbourhood and tell everyone you're gay. How about that?

---

Dude I was raised in the Dutch biblebelt, hardcore thoushaltnot protestants. Our neighbours were gay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Dude I was raised in the Dutch biblebelt, hardcore thoushaltnot protestants. Our neighbours were gay.

---

Do you really believe Netherlands is what I had in mind?

nvm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Do you really believe Netherlands is what I had in mind?

---

Would be if you knew what the Dutch biblebelt is like. It's still better to be gay in the Dutch biblebelt than let's say, Amsterdam, much less people with culture who are an enrichment.

Bad idea anyhow, when our Kurdish friend is back in Iran he will be hanged.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I have another challenge for you two. I will send you and Fragony to a mostly Christian country, in purely Christian neighbourhood and tell everyone you're gay. How about that?

---

in moderate Catholicism they will hate us and despise in Orthodox they will warn you you must leave there or they will beat you! in Protestantism they watch you as sick person but still dont hate you as evil!
in jewish they will Stone you! in ISLAM they will first hit you with 100 lashes and then they stone you or mostly will cut of your head! and your estate & property not to our family but for Bayt Ol Mal !! (i dont say by myself, this is in the Sharia) and will give it to sheikhs and mullahs!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ironside

Let see now. Do I believe in Mohammed and Allah? No.
Do I consider moderate Islam to be incompatitable with western humanistic values? No.
Do I consider fundamentalistic Islam as a sort of natural Islam? No.

I was more pointing out that modern fundamentalism has older roots to draw on. But you seem to have known this already. Going fundamentalist isn't a new phenomena (Sweden was most fundamentalist about 1600-1700 legal wise for example), but to counteract what KurdishSpartakus is saying, there's no obvious red thread of fundamentalism to follow.

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you deny your words with your own words?! denying Muhammad & Allah while you do believe Moderate Islam in nature is Good?!!!

beside that Rhyfelwyr answered you that from the very beggining Islam raised as fundamentalism, i add it that it was the one of so called prophet that converted its religion with campaigns and moving his army like the jewish malefactor prophets! unlike Zarathushtra, Jesus Christ, Buddha & ....
i cant really believe we have peoples in west believes Islam itself is not evil!! oh my God am i seeing right?!

i dont know why your hatred against the poor and the wretched Christianity will make you do whatever against jesus!! Damn this Roman Religions (Catholicism) that corrupted and made a false name of Jesus! jesus is not like what you think! you know the medieval Europe with the corrupt cardinals and bishops as the sign of Christianity! but this is wrong! jesus came with peace to Reform the corrupt jews not to create another religion!

at all, anything good that went to west were corrupted! not only Christianity, that Romans adopted it as influenced their Bull shit pagan religions in it! look Ancient & Modern Armenia! then you know Christianity not Roman Vatican's Religion!

even MITHRAYISM that was the most ancient religion on earth even much more before judaism, was the Religion of Kindness Love, Friendship and the Blessing and the the Light!! but as soon as gone to west it became the god of war & soldiers and killings! Romans sacrificed for Mithra Romans Killed for Mithra Romans Abused for Mithra Romans Raped for Mithra! while in ancient Mesopotamia & Iran in times of both Mithrayism & Zoroastrianism, sacrificing was banned as an abuse to "Nature" and insulting (the Only) God and making humanity as barbarian, kindness to families including specially to Parents & Wife, to forgive, to love even with your enemy and .......... anything that represents the goodness peace and love and the way of light!

so i think your siding and support of so called "Moderate Islam" is just came from hatred against Poor Christianity and Jesus not more than that!

so for looking to a religion dont only look to its people, but mostly and deeply look to its roots!

Look to Mithrayism, in the peace lands, Mesopotamia (Ancient Kurdistan) and West and North-East North & North West of Ancient Iranian Plateau! but what Westerns & Romans did?! they corrupted it

Look Christianity, look to Armenia (Not Israel! that cursed land was for jews) but what now is Christianity?! a Roman Religion Corrupted it AGAIN because was based on their past religion's beliefs and customs and the Cruel Roman malefactor & criminal Emperors! it was they that showed you Europeans Christianity not the Peaceful Armenians or even not the Jesus himself!

Look To Islam!! the Always Tribal War Land and the extreme super Hot dry waterless lands of SAUDI ARABIA's Deserts that will influence the wildery and the culture like Mongols & Turks in steppe that had to rape and invade and abuse to provide subsistence and do livelihood or they die from hunger because simply had not CIVLIZATION to improve their living qualities !

ok.... :dizzy2:

Let see now. Do I believe in Jesus and God? No.
Do I consider fundamentalistic Christianity to be incompattable with western humanistic values? Yes.
Do I consider moderate Christianity to be incompatitable with western humanistic values? No.
Do I consider fundamentalistic Christianity as a sort of natural Christianity? No.
Do I consider claiming that fundamentalistic Christianity is a sort of natural Christianity to be stupid? Yes.

So who do I hate now, KurdishSpartakus?

I do not consider any religion a as force of good. They do have good aspects though. And many people want and has spiritual needs. And it's part of a cultural baggage. I consider it quite stupid to try to force someone who goes once in a while to the church because of traditions to denounce Christianity, even if they're only technically Christians and they stopping to be Christians would mean nothing in their life.

The rest of your post can be summarised as this:
A:It's proof of that it's impossible to define a natural state.
B: Whatever thing that mythological natural state was, it has only a minor influence on what will happen with it in the future.
I mean, compare what Paul wrote and Jesus is presumed to have said (he didn't write it himself after all). Corruption of the Bible started before it was even written down the first time. No need to blame the Romans. The Romans in turn has dominated on how Christianity looks like, even today.

And you say I should ignore how Christianity has looked liked for the last 2000 years, because that haven't been true Christianity. At least it's consistant with that I should ignore how Islam has looked like since its origin (varied that is).

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Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus

in moderate Catholicism they will hate us and despise in Orthodox they will warn you you must leave there or they will beat you! in Protestantism they watch you as sick person but still dont hate you as evil!
in jewish they will Stone you! in ISLAM they will first hit you with 100 lashes and then they stone you or mostly will cut of your head! and your estate & property not to our family but for Bayt Ol Mal !! (i dont say by myself, this is in the Sharia) and will give it to sheikhs and mullahs!!

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Sad and confused now. What religion does a KurdishSpartikus support? I thought I had some notion before, now I am lost. Protestant? I don't mean to be personal, but information is best received if the context from which it is presented is known. Also, you were aware that in the west Sparticus is an icon of the gay community?

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Originally Posted by The Lurker Below

Also, you were aware that in the west Sparticus is an icon of the gay community?

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Actually, in the West, this is what Spartacus means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8h_v_our_Q

Lesser known only after google searching is that there is some drama involving a gay Spartacus and a travel guide, but they are rather obscure.

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

Actually, in the West, this is what Spartacus means.

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Exactly! A bunch of scantily clad hot men shouting. That is Spartacus! For even more fun watch Starz presentation of "Spartacus."

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and what's the purpose of the muhajideen Hax. There are various degrees of being a mujahideen, those who spread islam by word and those who spread it with violence. But the purpose is the same. Violence takes presedence as the the importance of verses and the hadith are reversed chronologcally in importance. So a later verse oudoes an older one.

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mujahideen. It was in the same post, perkele.

I think your post is stupid, for several reasons. If you don't know the Arabic term for "verse", then don't replace it by something else; hadith has several meanings, including "story". A verse is called âya, (ar. آیة, pl. آیات, âyât). Sorry, but it just makes you look pretentious, rather than anything else.

The notion of abrogation of verses is something that is a bit more complicated than you make it out to be, and there are Muslims who tend to focus more on one verse and less on another. An argument I've often heard is that the verses pertaining to "killing non-believers" only apply to wartime, so you can't just randomly start hacking/shooting away at people. Whether that is or isn't what the Quran says doesn't really matter​.

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Muhammad himself was a puritanical warrior-prophet, and well... the earliest Muslims were obviously fundamentalists since they followed the fundamental principles Muhammad set down. When the Abbasids overthrew the Umayyads a large part of their justification was on returning to some sort of golden age of Islamic morality. The Murabitun of the medieval period were notoriously fundamentalist and banned music, imposed strict Islamic dress and segregation and trashed much of the vibrant culture that existed in Ghana and Andalusia prior to their excursions. Certain Fatimid rulers were also strongly opposed to idolatry (most notably this guy) and trashed Christian and Jewish places of worship in Jerusalem and forced Jews to wear decorative calves to remind them of Aaron's idolatry.

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A few points here: almost all the information we have about Muhammad come from the collection of hadith, meaning that outside of the Islamic tradition, there is virtually no information over him. While it is indeniable that he was most likely a good strategist and tactician, it also means that we don't really know that much about his personality. Hadith tell us much more about the environment in which they were collected than about Muhammad.

I'm also seriously in doubt on whether these "earliest Muslims" were such puritanical figures. Interestingly, the Umayyad caliphate didn't really approve of the conversion of non-Arabs to Islam (Islam was in its earliest days perceived as an Arabic religion for Arabs (much more similar to Judaism)) and in order to convert to Islam, a person would also have to become an "honorary Arab", meaning that he or she had to align himself with an Arab tribe.

Additionally, there is an interesting amount of evidence that suggests that "mainstream" Sunnism (as defined by these four schools of jurisprudence (ar. madhhab, pl. madhâhib) came as a reaction to the increasing influence and popularity of Shi'ite ideas (which itself, was incredibly ill-defined until the 10th/11th centuries), which also means that there wasn't really a central religious authority (which still doesn't really exist in Islam).

As for the Abbasids, while I am not one to argue against the idea that they used the idea of increasing moral decay to justify their rebellion, but at the end of the day, they didn't really change that much.

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The Murabitun of the medieval period were notoriously fundamentalist and banned music, imposed strict Islamic dress and segregation and trashed much of the vibrant culture that existed in Ghana and Andalusia prior to their excursions.

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I don't know too much about them, sadly, but this is the idea that I got too.

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ertain Fatimid rulers were also strongly opposed to idolatry (most notably this guy) and trashed Christian and Jewish places of worship in Jerusalem and forced Jews to wear decorative calves to remind them of Aaron's idolatry.

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Actually, almost everything we know about al-Hakim stems from later (Sunni) sources, that tried to denigrate him for several reasons. Most contemporary sources point to him as a wise and egalitarian ruler, who was loved by almost all of his subjects. Interestingly, he gave equal rights to both Shi'ites and Sunnites, forbidding the Shi'a mosques to curse the name of Umar during the prayer, but at the same time, he sought to solidify the rule of his dynasty and so he removed many Sunnites from positions of power and replaced them with Jewish and Christian officials. Although the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was definitely destroyed during his rule, the exact reasons are a bit unclear. If memory serves me well, I think it had something to do with more general anti-Christian sentiment.

[QUOTE]beside i clearly want you hax and ironside. in a simple word you agree with islam (not muslims islam itself in quran and hadiths) or not or something else?/QUOTE]

I don't think Islam = Quran and Hadiths (Shi'ites reject the Sahih al-Bukhari, for example) but to answer your question, no, I do not agree with it because I don't believe in God. There you go.

As for the rest of your posts, I can't even read them without using painkillers. I'll wait for other people to process them.

Hadith is wat we would call 'overleveringen', indeed has nothing to do with verses, where did I say it did. There is the Mohammed mecca, which is all unicorn and rainbows, and there is the Mohammed of medina, which is all bloodshed and opression. Since the latter is more recent these verses overrule the former.

The term verses don't apply to hadith at all.

Also, if you're telling me that your interpretation of Islam is the correct one, then by that logic, we would now all be dead.

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Originally Posted by Hax

The term verses don't apply to hadith at all.

Also, if you're telling me that your interpretation of Islam is the correct one, then by that logic, we would now all be dead.

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I never said it did. I know that.

And we would all be dead? lolliepop at that, they may be very good at killing, and much better at enjoying killing, but they aren't very good at fighting it seems.

[QUOTE=Hax;2053579907]

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beside i clearly want you hax and ironside. in a simple word you agree with islam (not muslims islam itself in quran and hadiths) or not or something else?/QUOTE]

I don't think Islam = Quran and Hadiths (Shi'ites reject the Sahih al-Bukhari, for example) but to answer your question, no, I do not agree with it because I don't believe in God. There you go.

As for the rest of your posts, I can't even read them without using painkillers. I'll wait for other people to process them.

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i said you agree or not! not to believe or not! but i guess your reply is yes......

hadith maybe, but well its a great surprise say that Islam is not Quran! in islam & Quran says that like Moses's miracle was to speak with god! and Jesus's Marvel was to heal and raise the dead, Muhammad and & Islam's miracle is that Muhammad went to moon and the moon was cut to two pieaces, then its Quran as no one can not bring as it and nor can edit it because all will change!!
i dont know where you have brought that say?!!

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Hadith is wat we would call 'overleveringen', indeed has nothing to do with verses, where did I say it did. There is the Mohammed mecca, which is all unicorn and rainbows, and there is the Mohammed of medina, which is all bloodshed and opression. Since the latter is more recent these verses overrule the former.

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indeed yes. Bravo! thats all im telling!

and i dont know which sources these pals read that they see "Islam not bad but chrisianity as bad!! the jews......oh shut up you racist anti Semitic they are the perfect oppressed!!!! but after all "we are atheists"!!!"

strange idea!!...............

This is a very good Logical Website for The English Speakers with Videos and Trusted References & Sources>>>>http://www.answeringmuslims.com/

lolwhat?

Trusted site? It's a site run by a crazy evangelical organization with the aim of converting muslims to christianity. There's nothing "trusted" about it.




(...and that they explain issues with videos is a negative, not a positive)

Horrie is right on this one, they are known to pick out what they can use, often leaving out all context or using only half a quote.

```

Really?! can you be more on details about negative?!

maybe not Trusted so much and i dont know about aiming for conversion but they bring sources in inside Islamic references.

am i wrong?!

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/p/dearborn.html

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/p/dearborn.html

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so why you directed me to here ?!

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Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus

so why you directed me to here ?!

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They are relinuts as well, as Horrie said, they are evangelists who want to convert muslims to christianity. Maybe less dangerous but certainly not less creepy.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

They are relinuts as well, as Horrie said, they are evangelists who want to convert muslims to christianity. Maybe less dangerous but certainly not less creepy.

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Yeah, it's unamerican. The American way is to not give a crap about what your beliefs/lack thereof happen to be. Actively harassing people (even people with culture) is downright rude.

I tried to google "Islam Women And Sex" to learn more.

I'll be back later.

We are slipping of our chairs with anticipation

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I tried to google "Islam Women And Sex" to learn more.

I'll be back later.

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I Praise your Willing for more logic and knowledge. but i recommended the book of Ex-Mullah "Mariwan Halabjaee" too >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariwan_Halabjaee and https://sites.google.com/site/charlesrcblog/home

that will tell you perfectly

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I tried to google "Islam Women And Sex" to learn more.

I'll be back later.

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SO?

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Originally Posted by Hamburger

SO?

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Is right arm is now noticeably bigger than his left one.

Let's leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Is right arm is now noticeably bigger than his left one.

Let's leave it at that.

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I must be using the wrong Google then because all I found was a lot of dull stuff about how Muslim men should be more considerate lovers and how they try to exploit loop holes in religious teachings to cheat.
Just to be clear none of this is my opinion. I'm just quoting.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by rajpoot

I must be using the wrong Google then because all I found was a lot of dull stuff about how Muslim men should be more considerate lovers and how they try to exploit loop holes in religious teachings to cheat.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk

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Hey, whatever gets you off man.

I'm not here to judge anyone.

I did not have sexual relations with that woman!

i think that Mariwan's book its quite good and perfect about this.

btw,Kadgar did you researched?