Being assaulted and robbed isn't very much fun at all

So, in one of those rare occasions I didn't have my bodyguard with me (my dog), I got robbed.

I was walking home from the commuter train station, and I was on the phone. I payed little to no regards to what happened behind me.

Anyway, I got a push in the back. Kind of well balanced as I am, I didn't fall, which might have been a mistake, as 4-5 guys then jumped me with punches and kicks.

When they had asserted I wasn't a physical threat anymore, they went through my pockets and stole everything of value.

They ended the whole ordeal with spitting me in the face.

Do I have to say the gang was mixed with sub-sahara-africans and arabs? I think it was 4 or 5 of them.

I don't like living in a multicultural society *shivers*

This happened some days ago, but I was to shocked to write about it till now. It seriously upset me, as it felt more like a hate-crime than robbery. Oh, and my right middle finger will never be okay again, according to the doctors. They stomped on it, and it had also been twisted.

Too bad, was looking forward to Diablo 3 expansion... But now my mouse-handling skills will forever be impaired.

FML

Sorry to hear it. Violence is scary, if it doesn't frighten and shock you there is something wrong with you. Good luck with your recovery, don't worry about your finger, I can't remember how many times I have broken my hands, or anything really.

Are you getting any aftercare by the way, wouldn't be too proud to look for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Sorry to hear it. Violence is scary, if it doesn't frighten and shock you there is something wrong with you. Good luck with your recovery, don't worry about your finger, I can't remember how many times I have broken my hands, or anything really.

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Let's just say that the doctors have stated that a career as piano player is out of reach. To put it mildly.

I guess it can still fill a symbolical value though. So there is that going for me...

Dislocated knuckle? Do go talk to someone by the way. A few years ago someone was shot in the head and two friends of mine had blood and brains all over them, they weren't all that upset at the time but they later got nightmares of eyes fading away. Being assaulted (and humiliated) leaves a mark.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Dislocated knuckle? Do go talk to someone by the way. A few years ago someone was shot in the head and two friends of mine had blood and brains all over them, they weren't all that upset at the time but they later got nightmares of eyes fading away. Being assaulted (and humiliated) leaves a mark.

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That of course as well. But also quite some dead nerves. I guess the dead nerves is the problem.

Next time claim to be a job recruiter and it will scare them away

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

That of course as well. But also quite some dead nerves. I guess the dead nerves is the problem.

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Don't worry, this is what is left of my hand and I can play a piano just fine.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ps603c4a8e.jpg

Sorry to hear about it man. I can empathize with what you must have gone through. Good thing you are making a recovery though.
About that middle finger....did they choose to assault it specifically because of something you did to spite them or was it just whim?

They stomped on the hand to inflict the greatest crippling damage without killing him. The middle finger was probably at the point of the heel impact.

I will say a prayer for your speedy/best possible recovery.

What a bunch of bastards.

I agree with Frags, talk to someone, and get a second opinion about the hand - often a specialist will give you a different answer to a normal hospital doctor.

And - hell - I know what you mean - come to my country by all means, but don't kick the **** out of me and knick all the bronze war memorials.

I agree with PVC (I hate when people ruin the bronze Hitler statues), hope you have a speedy recovery, especially for your hand/finger.

Also one more reason not to concentrate on the phone too much, obviously some people hate that. ~;)

But seriously, that sounds like a very brutal attack, would be good if they can be found and jailed due to being caught on video or so. I suppose charges were filed?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Husar

I agree with PVC (I hate when people ruin the bronze Hitler statues), hope you have a speedy recovery, especially for your hand/finger.

Also one more reason not to concentrate on the phone too much, obviously some people hate that. ~;)

But seriously, that sounds like a very brutal attack, would be good if they can be found and jailed due to being caught on video or so. I suppose charges were filed?

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It was a bronze Jesus, actually.

Much local rage - because - you know - been there almost a hundred years.

I won't say who was suspected of doing it, let's just say it's something else Kad and I have common ground on.

Sorry to hear about this Kad. I hope it doesn't trouble your thoughts too much and your finger recovers better than expected.

MRD, if only it was that easy.

Rajpoot, I think Seamus Fermanagh's assessment is correct.

Seamus Fermanagh, Cheers, and thank you.

PVC, Thank you. As political as it was, I really don't dwell on that. Politics are about statistics, there I am but a number. This incident was very... personal? But then, I guess there is the same harm in all the numbers.

Sucks.

Husar, charges are filled, yes, That happens automatically when you come to hospital. I don't think it will be solved though... No cameras around, and only (mine) witness description is "a blur of people attacked".

Gregoshi, Cheers, thank you.




Bravado aside, I am quite shaken by this.


EDIT: I have an appointment with a hand specialist on Wednesday.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

MRD, if only it was that easy.

Rajpoot, I think Seamus Fermanagh's assessment is correct.

Seamus Fermanagh, Cheers, and thank you.

PVC, Thank you. As political as it was, I really don't dwell on that. Politics are about statistics, there I am but a number. This incident was very... personal? But then, I guess there is the same harm in all the numbers.

Sucks.

Husar, charges are filled, yes, That happens automatically when you come to hospital. I don't think it will be solved though... No cameras around, and only (mine) witness description is "a blur of people attacked".

Gregoshi, Cheers, thank you.




Bravado aside, I am quite shaken by this.


EDIT: I have an appointment with a hand specialist on Wednesday.

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1. You are most welcome.

2. Hope the hand specialist has a better sense of how to make things right.

3. Whatever therapy is assigned, do NOT skimp on it -- it is amazing how much strength and r-o-m can be recovered with proper physical therapy, even where nerve damage has occurred.

4. Of course you are shaken up. That is what we would label a normal emotional response -- and braggadocio about being a "successful" ski instructor aside, you are probably a pretty normal fellow.

Seamus Fermanagh, r-o-m-?

rom in swedish = rome, so all I get from a google search is ruins and gladiators, with the odd centurion tossed in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Dislocated knuckle? Do go talk to someone by the way. A few years ago someone was shot in the head and two friends of mine had blood and brains all over them, they weren't all that upset at the time but they later got nightmares of eyes fading away. Being assaulted (and humiliated) leaves a mark.

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I risk my physical status most days of the week. Even when I'm in Stockholm (Parkour).

The mental side of this whole thing is the bigger cross to bear, you are spot on - on that observation. I think it's the humiliation that really will grow a scar.

I usually am proud of my ability to fathom things in a logical manner, but this ordeal just blows my mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

It was a bronze Jesus, actually.

Much local rage - because - you know - been there almost a hundred years.

I won't say who was suspected of doing it, let's just say it's something else Kad and I have common ground on.

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I was just thinking about whether this happened here and who we could possibly have a war memorial of and then I thought this might be funny, but yeah, I'm a German, shouldn't attempt jokes, point taken....again...

You may remember that I got robbed by an immigrant as well, there's no need to be forgiving if they can't behave, but also no need to wish the ones out who do behave. Just saying, I'm glad my assailant got jailed but these guys obviously deserve it a lot more given the physical harm they caused, it's way more brutal and I can fully understand that Kadagar is shaken.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Seamus Fermanagh, r-o-m-?

rom in swedish = rome, so all I get from a google search is ruins and gladiators, with the odd centurion tossed in.

---

I think he means range of motion/movement, let's hope you regain enough of that to be comfortable at least.
And please don't take my attempts at humor as insensitive, it's just my way of dealing with almost anything, I'm quitte a bit shocked by your description of what they did, it's mind-boggingly brutal. :bow:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Husar

I think he means range of motion/movement, let's hope you regain enough of that to be comfortable at least.
And please don't take my attempts at humor as insensitive, it's just my way of dealing with almost anything, I'm quitte a bit shocked by your description of what they did, it's mind-boggingly brutal. :bow:

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You just have to face that you as German are comedy-impaired.

Thanks for the "translation" though, and also for your best wishes.

And yes, it was brutal alright.



I don't even know why I write about it here. But in a way, having shared close to 3000 thoughts on these boards and have them met by all of you, you guys are as close to me as any - but my best friends.


Any puns you have, please save them for a later thread. I appreciate all puns and attacks on these boards, but right now my nerves are on the skin of my body. Literary speaking ;)

PS: My finger was against a pebble as they stomped repeatedly, if you wonder why I worry.

Sorry, you communicate so well in English that I sometimes forget that it is your 2nd or 3rd language. Husar was quite correct: range of motion.

You do understand, logically, that the only mistake you made was situational awareness -- a mistake we all make and which nobody gets perfectly right. Moreover, even that may have made little difference. 5-1 is bad odds/damn near insurmountable odds for anything outside of a chop-socky flick. In other words, you did nothing wrong and have nothing to be ashamed of in any way. At those odds, macho doesn't cut it...and you know this too. It may take your emotions a while to catch up with that truth, but let them catch up.

Yeah. Kinda surprised they picked you, I assume you are in pretty good shape because your profession. Hope you can recognise them if the odds are more in your favour.

'violence doesn't solve anything' <- screw that

Very sorry to hear about your assault.
I hope the hand specialist can give you some good news, and I hope your body finds ways to restore your rom and functionality.
All I could add I believe Seamus already said: no need or point in self recrimination, you were victimized by a random act of brutality; like being blind-sided in sports-by the very definition of the event there is next to nothing you could have done about it.

I am sorry to hear what happened to you Kad. I hope for once the cops would get lucky and catch the SOB´s.

Sorry about what happened to you Kad.


It may well be that they will be found. You may even be the one to find them. It is unlikely that this was a one off attack on their part and they may just hang out in the same area looking for new victims.

Just up you vigilance and do use your camera.

It is not a cheery thought to run into them again, but be advised that it could be the case.

I would be delighted to see them again really. Same area, yeah probably. You will probably find them very fast if you are looking for them Kads. These inbred-challenged retards are this cowardly for a reason, they could never take you on mano de mano.

I sorry to hear about it Kadagar and I hope that you'll get a full recovery. And that those assulters gets either the police or revenge on them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Yeah. Kinda surprised they picked you, I assume you are in pretty good shape because your profession. Hope you can recognise them if the odds are more in your favour.

'violence doesn't solve anything' <- screw that

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What? You can't see how "macho" they were? It was outright mugging, not robbery. They probably picked him because he is well trained in this case.

It kinda does sound more like a hate-crime than a robbery. Mabe it's for the better for all of us that his hand is a bit broken; if he he would be a Swedish ski-instructor with a history-degree who can ALSO play a nocturne it would get a little difficult for the rest of.

Thank you all for caring.

According to the police, this gang goes to different small stops for subway/commuter train, and wait until they see someone walking alone. Ironside is right in his assessment according to the police, I was probably picked because I was a fit, young, white man.

They want to humiliate.

The others they have attacked had been between 20-30, at 33 I was the oldest. But then I do look and dress somewhat younger.

It's actually a relief hearing that they never attacked in the same area twice. Yes I want revenge, but I don't want to run in with them again, unless I have some friends along.

According to the police, they had rushed in my case, others have been treated worse. I think another train came, so they had to abort. Previously they have also forced people to give up their codes for the cash machines, with me they didnt have time. Lucky, well.... as luck goes...

I have noticed that I don't feel "safe" anymore, look over my shoulder and stuff. I think the mental damage will take longer to heal than the physical, if at all.

I never been much pro-immigration, as you all know. This however have cemented my belief, and I notice that I am more hateful now. I don't like hating, but I cant fight my own emotions. GAH!!

Oh well...

Don't really know what I wanted out of this thread, but hearing that my reaction is normal helps. Again, thank you all!! :bow:

EDIT: I wouldnt recognize anyone of them, unfortunately. I can walk right by them and have no idea... That irritates me. It really was all a blur, and I was a rubbish witness to the police. But the police have other witness reports from previous assaults, so yeah.... I hope they get caught.

I couldnt even say how many they were :no:

If they operate in trainstations then why are they so hard to find, trainstations have security-camara's. Seems to me that the police isn't even trying. Buy a good knive that you can swing open by the way, you will feel better if you it have in your pocket.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I have noticed that I don't feel "safe" anymore, look over my shoulder and stuff. I think the mental damage will take longer to heal than the physical, if at all.

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That's a damn shame.
Something similar happened to me in Scotland back in '92 when I was out'n about in Glasgow. Won't get into details but I managed to run them off. Can't for the life of me remember any faces and I didn't report it as I wasn't too hurt (only a cut from a bottle over my right ear). Even as "victorious", the mark is there. You just tense when you see youth gathered and think about how to best get out if attacked (never got it professionally looked into).
Of course back then - I wasn't distracted by a mobile phone, and saw them coming.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

If they operate in trainstations then why are they so hard to find, trainstations have security-camara's. Seems to me that the police isn't even trying. Buy a good knive that you can swing open by the way, you will feel better if you it have in your pocket.

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They wait outside the stations until they see someone walking home alone. A knife probably wouldnt have helped much, and odds are I would just have been stabbed then. Also, I dont want to go to jail for knife-crime as that is seen as a serious crime here in Sweden. We're not even allowed to carry knifes, if it's not part of our job. As teacher it would be hard to explain why I need it.


Sigurd, Seems like you were lucky, or very fast?

I rarely use my phone, I make maybe 1-2 calls a day. This time however my mother called about my dog, he had an operation last thursday, so I really needed to take the call. Was a mistake in hindsigh, of course. But I'm not sure I like a society where you have to be on constant alert. I'm not used to living that way.

The problem with bringing in people from the 3rd world is that they bring the 3rd world with them. I'm in favor of immigration and freedom from oppression, jobs, and education for everyone, but in the US we balance it with having everyone armed to the teeth on their walk to the store or to Church. It is a hedge. Sorry that you felt the brunt of multikulti firsthand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

They wait outside the stations until they see someone walking home alone. A knife probably wouldnt have helped much, and odds are I would just have been stabbed then. Also, I dont want to go to jail for knife-crime as that is seen as a serious crime here in Sweden. We're not even allowed to carry knifes, if it's not part of our job. As teacher it would be hard to explain why I need it.

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I don't know if this is true for Sweden as well, but using a weapon in defence doesn't weight as much as possesion of something you aren't allowed to have. My knive is legal here at least, I like the thought that I can defend myself should I have to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I don't know if this is true for Sweden as well, but using a weapon in defence doesn't weight as much as possesion of something you aren't allowed to have. My knive is legal here at least, I like the thought that I can defend myself should I have to.

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Knives won't help you unless you are Doug Marcaida, but they might get you killed. You need firepower and you need to avoid large groups of people walking together. Always be alert

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

The problem with bringing in people from the 3rd world is that they bring the 3rd world with them. I'm in favor of immigration and freedom from oppression, jobs, and education for everyone, but in the US we balance it with having everyone armed to the teeth on their walk to the store or to Church. It is a hedge. Sorry that you felt the brunt of multikulti firsthand.

---

I don't think it's a very good idea to turn this into an immigration thread when Swedish football fans just whacked one of their own this weekend.

It seems the 3rd world was already present in Sweden before any immigrants came over.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I don't think it's a very good idea to turn this into an immigration thread when Swedish football fans just whacked one of their own this weekend.

It seems the 3rd world was already present in Sweden before any immigrants came over.

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You be the judge. In the US, the vast majority of violent crime exists in areas with the highest levels of immigrants due to their low educational attainment and place of origin. Those are also my favorite places because they represent where successful decent people work the hardest to elevate themselves.

For the record, I turned it into an self defense/gun rights discussion first. Multiculturalism is the just the catalyst I'm using to convince people to defend themselves from the important experiment that their governments are running. No racism, no interest in reducing immigration, just an interest in not having your ass kicked in public by knuckledraggers of all colors, shapes, and sizes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Knives won't help you unless you are Doug Marcaida, but they might get you killed. You need firepower and you need to avoid large groups of people walking together. Always be alert

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Quik slice on the forehead is all it takes, there is so much blood pouring into their eyes that they can't do anything. If you can hit someone you can do that as well. It will only hurt their pride, you won't do any real damage. And yeah, did that. Had no problem with doing it, still don't. Thing is, you don't get picked if they can see that you will have absolutily no problem with doing that. And they can absolutily notice that.

Quote:

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but in the US we balance it with having everyone armed to the teeth on their walk to the store or to Church.

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Hard to explain the low crime in areas with no guns, eh?

Quote:

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the vast majority of violent crime exists in areas with the highest levels of immigrants

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A blatant falsehood.

For someone who lives around NYC, you sure have to ignore a lot of stuff to construct your worldview...

So sorry to hear about this. What a bunch of cowardly bastards.

I truly hope for a speedy recovery for you, physically and mentally.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Sigurd, Seems like you were lucky, or very fast?

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I was 20 and had just finished military training. My self-image was "invincible". These were native Scottish alley cats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Hard to explain the low crime in areas with no guns, eh?



A blatant falsehood.

For someone who lives around NYC, you sure have to ignore a lot of stuff to construct your worldview...

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I've never heard of anyone being jumped by roving white youths where I'm from. That may be different in other areas of the country. I have been reading about lower rates of crime for first generation immigrants to be fair, but violent crime rates double that of the white population for 2nd generation Hispanics. I'm not sure what to think. Most of the crime problems where I come from black youths rather than immigrants, whose rate of violent crime is somewhere on the order of 4-6x the rate of whites, but Eastern European criminal activity is crazy in NYC, but most of it is fraud related.

I like the kinds of Hispanic immigrants that we get here on LI. They are generally hard working and great. I hear that it is much worse in areas bordering Mexico.

None of my friends have ever been in jail. Ever. In fact, none of them have even been pregnant before getting married which is even wielded. But a few of them have had their asses kicked by minorities, so my personal anecdote is worth something to me.

Quote:

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but [ex-Soviet] criminal activity is crazy in NYC.

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I think this may be outdated. But I will grant that in the US organized-crime groups have tended to arise from the first generations of large, cohesive immigrant groups.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

I think this may be outdated. But I will grant that in the US organized-crime groups have tended to arise from the first generations of large, cohesive immigrant groups.

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I've changed my post a bit to more closely match my understanding

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

I think this may be outdated. But I will grant that in the US organized-crime groups have tended to arise from the first generations of large, cohesive immigrant groups.

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For me, assimilation is mandatory. If I see a polite person with a unique cultural background I am instantly drawn to them. People naturally assimilate with their surroundings. If you leave people in the ghetto, they assimilate into the ghetto.

Assimilation doesn't mean Asian people become twinkies or black people become oreos. It means they get a bit lighter as I get a bit darker. Both cultures change, it is our job to ensure that both cultures change for the better.

And also that everyone has a sweet gun collection and is constantly armed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

For me, assimilation is mandatory. If I see a polite person with a unique cultural background I am instantly drawn to them. People naturally assimilate with their surroundings.

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Why should they? I really don't mind it if they don't, we have no right to tell them how and what to think. No obligation either, quid pro quo.

Regarding ICSD's points:

Multiculturalism, aka an integrated identity, is something for which to strive. Assimilation, at least in academese, is the term used to denote the immigrant being forced to discard their parent culture and adopt the new host culture. Ideally, we would want them to embrace both as an integrated whole or at least "code switch" in an appropriate fashion so that they can enjoy both their culture of origin and the dominant culture of the community to which they have come. Of course, this level of benign integration is the most challenging. I suspect that you are using "assimilate" in this latter fashion.

There are huge problems with economically challenged immigrants, particularly when they come from a culture that has a fairly different set of values. I want to be clear, though, that race has nothing to do with it. The whites from Italy and Ireland in Hell's Kitchen, or Southie, or the Five Points were just as quick to form gangs and embrace hooliganism and "getting even" violence as were the Chinese in Chinatown in San Francisco or the Cubans in Miami. And we are all well aware that you don't need immigrants to form gangs or beget groups of hooligans and street thugs.

Two things that have to be considered:

Slowing the rate of immigration to a level that spurs economic growth but does not greatly surpass the rate of employment growth in the host economy. Lack of opportunity has always been associated with criminality.

Enhancing the police ability to suppress such things -- though be aware that suppression will involve police abuses as well since suppressive strategies feature a more overt and prominent role for police officers on the streets of the community. Also more costly on the tax payer.

Sorry to hear that Kad. Hope you recover your hand fully - you'd be amazed at what your body can do.

Random violence is scary in that it is random. We logically understand gang wars, or real wars, but being a victim of violence without provocation is upsetting. A powerlessness comes with it - a sense that nothing you could have done would have made it turn out any different. I have been in an unpleasant situation before, and now get really paranoid about areas where i might get attacked to the point I don't stop at traffic lights at night in some areas if i don't feel i really have to.

All I can say is pay attention to your surroundings always, and leave checking your phone for when you're in a place you know to be safe. Of course hindsight is always perfect.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Regarding ICSD's points:

Multiculturalism, aka an integrated identity, is something for which to strive. Assimilation, at least in academese, is the term used to denote the immigrant being forced to discard their parent culture and adopt the new host culture. Ideally, we would want them to embrace both as an integrated whole or at least "code switch" in an appropriate fashion so that they can enjoy both their culture of origin and the dominant culture of the community to which they have come. Of course, this level of benign integration is the most challenging. I suspect that you are using "assimilate" in this latter fashion.

There are huge problems with economically challenged immigrants, particularly when they come from a culture that has a fairly different set of values. I want to be clear, though, that race has nothing to do with it. The whites from Italy and Ireland in Hell's Kitchen, or Southie, or the Five Points were just as quick to form gangs and embrace hooliganism and "getting even" violence as were the Chinese in Chinatown in San Francisco or the Cubans in Miami. And we are all well aware that you don't need immigrants to form gangs or beget groups of hooligans and street thugs.

Two things that have to be considered:

Slowing the rate of immigration to a level that spurs economic growth but does not greatly surpass the rate of employment growth in the host economy. Lack of opportunity has always been associated with criminality.

Enhancing the police ability to suppress such things -- though be aware that suppression will involve police abuses as well since suppressive strategies feature a more overt and prominent role for police officers on the streets of the community. Also more costly on the tax payer.

---

In practice, multiculturalism has resulted in ghettos. It's like Communism: nice idea, never works in practice.

Take a moment to think and it's obvious why - because nobody has two cultures, they may have a blended culture, but not two cultures within them. The political doctrine allows different groups to form their own cultural units within a society, this weakens the overall cohesiveness of the society and what happed to Kad is the logical result.

Kad: I don't think it was a "hate crime" I think they just attacked you because you weren't "one of them".

Which frankly, is a daft situation for a Swede to be in in Sweden.

Same applies to the bronzes on the War memorials here - the way we're brought up, you'd basically have to be a socio-path to be able to do that - but a foreigner doesn't care about our cult of rememberer, so he can steel a 100-year old figure of Christ or the plaque listing the names of the Fallen without feeling anything.

Can I get my points. I have been warning for this for years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

In practice, multiculturalism has resulted in ghettos. It's like Communism: nice idea, never works in practice.

Take a moment to think and it's obvious why - because nobody has two cultures, they may have a blended culture, but not two cultures within them. The political doctrine allows different groups to form their own cultural units within a society, this weakens the overall cohesiveness of the society and what happed to Kad is the logical result.

Kad: I don't think it was a "hate crime" I think they just attacked you because you weren't "one of them".

Which frankly, is a daft situation for a Swede to be in in Sweden.

Same applies to the bronzes on the War memorials here - the way we're brought up, you'd basically have to be a socio-path to be able to do that - but a foreigner doesn't care about our cult of rememberer, so he can steel a 100-year old figure of Christ or the plaque listing the names of the Fallen without feeling anything.

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A logical result? I can't agree. I have lived in a neighbourhood where the most dangerous and violent people were the neo-nazi Real Madrid supporters. Immigrant gangs originated to defend against their attacks rather than to attack others. Eventually most of them (both neo-nazi and immigrant gangs) evolved into drugs and random violence, but that was absolutely not how it began.

I could postulate that generalisation creates violence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Can I get my points. I have been warning for this for years.

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It's a Cassandra thing. If your prognostications are wrong, you get reviled for the inanity of your predictions. If you are later proven correct....you are reviled even more.

Internet justice, ain't it beee-ooo--tiful.

About multiculturalism, I of course agree that the idea as is sounds good. Not as good as making a national country, where everyone love and support each other though (as much as can be expected).

Sweden used to be rather idyllic, I have no idea why we decided to tear it all up and instead import people from the worst cultures in the world, Somalia and Afghanistan comes to mind, also gypsys...

I don't get it.

Maybe because the average guy here is like HoreTore or Lars, who refuse to believe there is a problem even if they hear gunshots in their hallway.


About weapons and guns... Sure, we could of course build a society where to feel secure, one have to arm up resembling the marines in Aliens, and move in tactical formation down the streets.

That's not my idea of a idyllic society though.

Crimes like these used to be non-existant to extremely rare. If they happened, media would write all over about it, and police would concentrate their efforts to catch the criminals.

Today, people hardly raise an eyebrow.

I feel disgusted at what we have become.

Keep Sweden Swedish, and out with the lowlife immigrants (not talking about German Doctors here).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Sweden used to be rather idyllic, I have no idea why we decided to tear it all up and instead import people from the worst cultures in the world, Somalia and Afghanistan comes to mind, also gypsys...

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You got beaten up by immigrants at the same time as another Swede was beaten to death by ethnic Swedes.

Go cry me a river.

I am sorry to hear about this, Kad. Try not to let yourself become hateful of it - it is a human reaction but not a good one.

IMO such random violence is a result of social bonds breaking down. People don't respect other people any more, they can't identify with each other, they live in different worlds and don't have any sort of shared experience of life. Immigration plays a part in this process, but it only a small part of the story. I blame anything that creates division in society - where people stop becoming human beings, and become labels - a 'chav' or a 'toff', a 'dole-scrounger' or a 'snob', a 'Paki' or a 'cracker', a 'hun' or a 'taig', or whatever. Because when you see people as labels, you don't consider the human pain they feel when you inflict it on them, all you see is whatever the particular label you give them denotes.

Immigration might create a very visible divide in society due to skin colour etc, but really all the above is going to be on some level a side effect of urban society. It's because of the monkeysphere. As human beings, we are capable of recognising an extended group of about 150 people as being our co-humans, and any people beyond that core 150 are seen as completely one-dimensional characters that have no existence beyond whatever it is we see them doing, or know them for in our own lives. Hence I feel that to you, an Arab immigrant is not a person with parents and children and a life story, he is in fact just a threat. Likewise, to an Arab immigrant, you are not an teacher and ski-instructor that loves history and women from many different countries, you are in fact just a walking cash machine.

I guess the only solution would be to return to living in smaller communities with more organic social ties, but that is just hopeless romanticism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

I guess the only solution would be to return to living in smaller communities with more organic social ties, but that is just hopeless romanticism.

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Yeah, bringing back shaming, hushed whispers and social exclusion whenever someone doesn't conform to the norm is a brilliant idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

You got beaten up by immigrants at the same time as another Swede was beaten to death by ethnic Swedes.

Go cry me a river.

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I don't see your logic here. We don't have an immigrant problem, and I shouldnt whine for being assaulted, because another guy died this week? Perpetrator is unknown btw, might well have been an immigrant.

I really, REALLY fail to see you having any point what so ever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I don't see your logic here. We don't have an immigrant problem, and I shouldnt whine for being assaulted, because another guy died this week? Perpetrator is unknown btw, might well have been an immigrant.

I really, REALLY fail to see you having any point what so ever.

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The perpetrators are identified as casuals, and they're almost all ethnic Swedes(as are most football fans in general, immigrants support Barcelona).

I don't care about your whining, what I do care about is how you twist it from a crime problem to an immigration and cultural problem, coupled with neo-nazi slogans.

Considering that your fellow Swedes showed their true character this weekend, I find the timing of your reference to idyllic Sweden hilarious.

In related news, this is what it looks like when a group of fine, young Swedish gentlemen visits a pub.

I can see why people don't want to ruin this idyllic society.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

The perpetrators are identified as casuals, and they're almost all ethnic Swedes.

I don't care about your whining, what I do care about is how you twist it from a crime problem to an immigration and cultural problem, coupled with neo-nazi slogans.

Considering that your fellow Swedes showed their true character this weekend, I find the timing of your reference to idyllic Sweden hilarious.

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HoreTore, first of all, immigrants viciously attacking ethnic Swedes are far more common than the other way around. Even IF, and that's a big "IF", the hooligans killing that man were Swedes, it doesnt change the statistics.

Secondly, what makes you think the perpetrator was an ethnic Swede? Helsingborg is full of arabs and south-of-Sahara-Africans.

Looking at Helsingborg at large and its modern demographics, I give it 50/50 odds that the perp was immigrant.

Why so eager to jump to conclussions? I guess because it's so rare with Swedish perps in horrible assaults like this, that you take any half-arsed chance you have to support your completely failed political beliefs?

Patethic. At least wait till you know who did it before you start screaming "Swedish Murderer!!" Mmmmmmmmkay?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

In related news, this is what it looks like when a group of fine, young Swedish gentlemen visits a pub.

I can see why people don't want to ruin this idyllic society.

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Rare happenings does not change statistics HT. I never said Sweden doesn't have our share of idiots, I just wonder why we import people we know are professional at it.

Also, I think that link just said it was supporters, nothing about it being ethnic Swedes... Or do you just assume it's Swedes when perp is unknown, even when statistics would lean the other way?

Seems kind of.... stupid...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

HoreTore, first of all, immigrants viciously attacking ethnic Swedes are far more common than the other way around. Even IF, and that's a big "IF", the hooligans killing that man were Swedes, it doesnt change the statistics.

Secondly, what makes you think the perpetrator was an ethnic Swede? Helsingborg is full of arabs and south-of-Sahara-Africans.

Looking at Helsingborg at large and its modern demographics, I give it 50/50 odds that the perp was immigrant.

Why so eager to jump to conclussions? I guess because it's so rare with Swedish perps in horrible assaults like this, that you take any half-arsed chance you have to support your completely failed political beliefs?

Patethic. At least wait till you know who did it before you start screaming "Swedish Murderer!!" Mmmmmmmmkay?

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Rubbish.

Swedish football fans are, like Norwegian, Finnish and Danish fans, predominantly natives. Nothing strange about that: since our leagues sucks monkeyballs, the only ones who would watch it are those people who do so for reasons other than football(ie. tradition and so on). Immigrants rarely have this, and so prefer to watch real football instead of our pathetic leagues. The casuals firms I know in Norway(ISKO and Fineste) are all ethnic Norwegians. I have no reason to believe Sweden is different.

My source for this claim? 27 years of being a die-hard football fan. Which you appear not to be. Have fun flicking through footage of HIF and DIF supporters. Playing "spot the darkie" will be a hell of a lot harder than finding Wally. Here is a good start, from the match this weekend.

That you refer to Swedish football violence as a "rare happenings" just shows how blinded you are by your racism. Swedish football hooliganism is right up their with England in 80's now. This weekend's death was merely the latest and most brutal event. It was the logical climax of years of fighting, someone was bound to get killed eventually.

This is the true face of your idyllic ethnicity. It fails. Hard.

But do continue to cry "but they're all immigrants" if that makes you sleep at night. Pathetic.

EDIT: Oh look, more upstanding Swedish gents upholding honour and virtue in the land. You're going to tell me it's a 50/50 chance they were immigrants as well, eh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Rubbish.

Swedish football fans are, like Norwegian, Finnish and Danish fans, predominantly natives. Nothing strange about that: since our leagues sucks monkeyballs, the only ones who would watch it are those people who do so for reasons other than football(ie. tradition and so on). Immigrants rarely have this, and so prefer to watch real football instead of our pathetic leagues. The casuals I know in Norway(ISKO and Fineste) are all ethnic Norwegians. I have no reason to believe Sweden is different.

My source for this claim? 27 years of being a die-hard football fan. Which you appear not to be. Have fun flicking through footage of HIF and DIF supporters. Playing "spot the darkie" will be a hell of a lot harder than finding Wally.

That you refer to Swedish football violence as a "rare happenings" just shows how blinded you are by your racism. Swedish football hooliganism is right up their with England in 80's now. This weekend's death was merely the latest and most brutal event. It was the logical climax of years of fighting, someone was bound to get killed eventually.

This is the true face of your idyllic ethnicity. It fails. Hard.

But do continue to cry "but they're all immigrants" if that makes you sleep at night. Pathetic.

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You fail to understand that Sweden has accepted like what? 10 times as much immigrants as Norway?

In the 90's, you would have been correct that "darkies" were far apart among the supporters, but hardly today. Specially in football, which is an immigrant sport. Hockey fans are still rather ethnic, though.

Also, the more violent fans tend to be darkies... So there is that as well.

I am not saying that it's impossible that it's Swedes who are the perps, I am saying that it's stupid to accuse them of being Swedes untill you know it is so, when statistics would give it more of a 50/50 chance. Eveen you should be very much able to understand this VERY simple fact, if not I shiver when I think that you teach children.

Again, pathetic. Your argumentation doesn't hold for any type of scrutiny what so ever.


EDIT: I dont think Norways immigrants have had the "Zlatan" effect we see in Swedens youths. Basically, every arab, african and their mother are kicking ball these days.

To offer what anecdotal evidence I can, as somebody who has lived in (or around) Glasgow and Belfast, I have experienced my fair share of run-ins (somehow I've not gotten into an actual fight) with people and not once has it been with an immigrant. Of course, these two cities have notorious crime problems that predate the modern waves of immigration, and they also have relatively low immigrant numbers for UK cities. But you still get problems there as I have seen.

Latest incident was about a month back coming back from work on the train (was working backshift), and some kid, maybe 15 or so, who is covered in blood started doing some sort of techno dance in front of the carriage window as if left from my platform, then came up to me asked me if I had ever been stabbed. I said "are you alright" or something to that effect, and he was quite placid, turns out he had taken LSD and had tried to cut his finger off. Stabbings happen all the time here so I was expecting things to happen there and then, I felt sorry for him because he seemed like a nice kid after I talked to him a bit walking down the steps.

But as Sigurd will tell you, that is Glasgow for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Yeah, bringing back shaming, hushed whispers and social exclusion whenever someone doesn't conform to the norm is a brilliant idea.

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I don't think that would happen, but even if it did, it is preferable to complete social breakdown, political alienation, cultural collapse, economic hopelessness, moral degeneration, and all the other fruits of this world that are experienced by those at the bottom.

HT, you like maths, so let's be logical about it.

I bring up one anecdote supporting me, and I point to statistics supporting me.

You bring up one anecdote that mmmmmaybe supports you, and refuse to bother with overall statistics.

And then you claim that you are right? This is stupid on a scary level. Stop teaching math at once, you are being as logical as TotalRelism here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

You fail to understand that Sweden has accepted like what? 10 times as much immigrants as Norway?

In the 90's, you would have been correct that "darkies" were far apart among the supporters, but hardly today. Specially in football, which is an immigrant sport. Hockey fans are still rather ethnic, though.

Also, the more violent fans tend to be darkies... So there is that as well.

I am not saying that it's impossible that it's Swedes who are the perps, I am saying that it's stupid to accuse them of being Swedes untill you know it is so, when statistics would give it more of a 50/50 chance. Eveen you should be very much able to understand this VERY simple fact, if not I shiver when I think that you teach children.

Again, pathetic. Your argumentation doesn't hold for any type of scrutiny what so ever.

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I would advise you to get a clue before you speak, as you are obviously talking about things you do not understand.

Immigrants do play football in Sweden. They also attracts immigrants as supporters. However, the clubs we are talking about are the likes of Syrianska, Assyriska, and so on. You know, the clubs founded by immigrants. Funnily enough, they all play in Superettan and are not known for hooliganism.

The teams with crap supporters, like the Stockholm clubs, Göteborg and so on, have supporters who are predominantly ethnic Swedes. The percentage of ethnic Swedes in the Ultras factions are especially high.



That you distinguish between hockey and football fans is just so clueless I'm wondering whether I should laugh or cry. Get a clue before you talk, son.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

I don't think that would happen

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Its alive and well in all small places.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I would advise you to get a clue before you speak, as you are obviously talking about things you do not understand.

Immigrants do play football in Sweden. They also attracts immigrants as supporters. However, the clubs we are talking about are the likes of Syrianska, Assyriska, and so on. You know, the clubs founded by immigrants. Funnily enough, they all play in Superettan and are not known for hooliganism.

The teams with crap supporters, like the Stockholm clubs, Göteborg and so on, have supporters who are predominantly ethnic Swedes. The percentage of ethnic Swedes in the Ultras factions are especially high.



That you distinguish between hockey and football fans is just so clueless I'm wondering whether I should laugh or cry. Get a clue before you talk, son.

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You still dodge overall statistics.

Anyway, go to Helsingborg and spend some time with the supporters. Lots and loads of Yugoslavians, arabs and whatnot. Norway havent had the Zlatan effect of Sweden, as I edited in before, every damn immigrant and their mother are playing ball these days.

I distinguish between hockey and football fans because... it's two distinct groups. Way, way, WAY more immigrants who bother with football.

Maybe not in Norway, but definitely so here in Sweden. Again, we don't share the same multicultural problems, as Norway has been way more moderate in their intake of immigrants.

GAH, like talking to a brick wall :wall:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I distinguish between hockey and football fans because... it's two distinct groups. Way, way, WAY more immigrants who bother with football.

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This proves just how hopelessly ignorant you are of how supporter shenanigans work.

Get a clue. I would advise you not to comment on issues you have no knowledge of.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

This proves just how hopelessly ignorant you are of how supporter shenanigans work.

Get a clue. I would advise you not to comment on issues you have no knowledge of.

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I have been to surely hundreds of both football and hockey games in my life, here in Sweden. I have seen how the demographic around football has changed, while hockey has remained about the same.

You seriously think your take on it from a Norwegian perspective trumps my hands on experience?

Immigrants don't care about hockey, they care about football. Thus, yes, the fanbase between hockey and football is very much different. Just because you support AIK in football, doesnt mean you have to support AIK in hockey.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I have been to surely hundreds of both football and hockey games in my life, here in Sweden. I have seen how the demographic around football has changed, while hockey has remained about the same.

You seriously think your take on it from a Norwegian perspective trumps my hands on experience?

Immigrants don't care about hockey, they care about football. Thus, yes, the fanbase between hockey and football is very much different. Just because you support AIK in football, doesnt mean you have to support AIK in hockey.

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Swing and a miss.

Again, get a clue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Swing and a miss.

Again, get a clue.

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What!? Have you started with drugs or something?

You are usually at least comprehensive, but in this thread your arguments are coco as cocopuffs.

Immigrants_do_not_care_about_hockey, they_care_about_football. What is it about that you don't understand?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

What!? Have you started with drugs or something?

You are usually at least comprehensive, but in this thread your arguments are coco as cocopuffs.

Immigrants_do_not_care_about_hockey, they_care_about_football. What is it about that you don't understand?

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....Which actually proves that the guys stirring up trouble at football stadiums are ethnic Swedes.

If you can't make the connection now, you are too ignorant on this subject to discuss it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

....Which actually proves that the guys stirring up trouble at football stadiums are ethnic Swedes.

If you can't make the connection now, you are too ignorant on this subject to discuss it.

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WHAT!?

We have much more problems around football games than hockey games.
We have much more immigrants watching football than hockey.

And in your viewpoint, that points towards it being the fault of the ethnic Swedes? :dizzy2:

:wall:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

WHAT!?

We have much more problems around football games than hockey games.
We have much more immigrants watching football than hockey.

And in your viewpoint, that points towards it being the fault of the ethnic Swedes? :dizzy2:

:wall:

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....And it is the average supporter who engages in hooliganism....?

Here is a pic of the causal firm in question, by the way. Again, play "spot the darkie".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

....And it is the average supporter who engages in hooliganism....?

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No, it's generally immigrants or Swedes borne and raised in immigrant ghettos, who have been culturally diseased.

Coco as cocopuffs... Your arguments are coco as cocopuffs... :dizzy2:

EDIT: Play "spot the Yugoslavian". Or spot "The Swedish kid ruined by immigration".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

No, it's generally immigrants or Swedes borne and raised in immigrant ghettos, who have been culturally diseased.

Coco as cocopuffs... Your arguments are coco as cocopuffs... :dizzy2:

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Firman Boys
Young Boys
Fanaticos Landskrona
Urban Boys
Wisemen
Youth Crew
GAIS Yngre
Hammarby KGB

"Spot the darkie".

And for the sake of completion:
Fineste
ISKO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Firman Boys
Young Boys
Fanaticos Landskrona
Urban Boys
Wisemen
Youth Crew
GAIS Yngre
Hammarby KGB

"Spot the darkie".

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My previous answer stands. Spot the Yugoslavian or Swede ruined by immigrant surroundings.

BTW, the firms actually are rather good at attacking each other in a more controlled fashion.

Random violence is more an immigrant thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

My previous answer stands. Spot the Yugoslavian or Swede ruined by immigrant surroundings.

BTW, the firms actually are rather good at attacking each other in a more controlled fashion.

Random violence is more an immigrant thing.

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This is laughable.

The ignorance is staggering.