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The remains of the three missing teenagers who were kidnapped 3 weeks ago have been found. :shame:
Praying for the souls of the departed, and comfort for their family. Also praying for cool heads and restraint. Barring that, also praying for the soon-to-be victims of what is likely to follow... a heavy-handed retribution designed to punish, not resolve.
Cooler heads will not prevail, more blood will be spilled, peace will never come.
Prayers well placed, and I will echo them.
Hooahguy:
"Never" is a long time, and I pray not lifetimes away in this instance, but this 50-year-old, despite hoping to double that total, does not expect to see it in his lifetime.
I have lost any hope in a peaceful settlement of this conflict. Just look at the comments people are saying, on both sides. The Israelis are demanding Palestinian blood (preferably of children it seems) and Palestinians are celebrating the murders. Disgusting.
Hit back and hit hard, how obvious do you want things to be. Palestinians cheer for the death of these poor sods, they cheer for 9/11, they cheer for the death of an abducted Israeli soldier and rub up their face with his organs, crazy frenzy. It is what it is so treat it as what it is. Why care if it only makes them angrier, the hate is already well established.
Probably not a good idea to be advocating that a Jewish state, currently accused of recreating the early days of the holocaust against the Palastinians, hit back hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I don't know - eventually both sides will get worn out, or more likely the US will lose it's grip and another country will impose peace. In another generation the Holocaust will be merely history, with no living witnesses, and at that point Israel's special standing will drain away and they will be forced to behave like adults.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Then the Palestinians will be forced to behave like adults in turn.
Laughable, in the Hamas own writings it is 100% obvious what they are after for. They don't even pretend they don't want to kill all jews. Kill the vermin whenever you can, whenever you got a reason given it's a gift.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
The sense of guilt will last longer than the deaths of those remaining Holocaust survivors. How much longer I am unsure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
You realise you are talking about Humans yes? I would think about rephrasing your tirade a little - you sound much like the preachers you claim to hate...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
On the matter at hand - sadly I don't think it will ever end until one side is gone - Israel insists on slowly strangling the Palestinian people by striping their land away settlement by settlement and in turn the Palestine people refuse to cast out the Terrorist organisations and instead continue to support them with fervour - it would take both sides to step back and so far neither is overly interested...
Sure I am talking about humans, but their wellbeing doesn't interest me all that much, live with hate untill you die because of hate. The palestinians are in a pinball-machine because of powers that are bigger than them, sucks. But I don't feel sorry for them, they made their choice, no going back. They cheered when people were jumping out of the WTC because that was a better option than burning alive, they cheer because of these 3 youths were murdered, they cheer for the most horrible things. Not just in Palestina, also in Europe where nobody is taking anyone's land. It's the islam and the islam is nothing more than it is, a sick ideoligy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
While a disturbingly large number of Palestinians have expressed sympathy for the terror attacks,the images from their cheering on 9/11 are pretty ambiguous.they're actually not ambiguous at all, sadly. Additionally, the PNA also condemned the attacks.
I don't know what your point is, Fragony, but I think that your ideas on how to solve the conflict are insane.
I think Israel should initiate some kind of program to fully integrate Palestine into Israel and fully integrate Palestinian Arabs into Israel as equal members of society. I'm still a bit lost on the specifics though.Quote:
On the matter at hand - sadly I don't think it will ever end until one side is gone - Israel insists on slowly strangling the Palestinian people by striping their land away settlement by settlement and in turn the Palestine people refuse to cast out the Terrorist organisations and instead continue to support them with fervour - it would take both sides to step back and so far neither is overly interested...
Palestine and the Diaspora outnumber the 'Jews' in Israel, so they do not want to integrate option due to becoming a minority within the state. If the numbers were the other way around, it would have worked better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Alternative solution would be the integration of the diaspora within Jordan properly opposed to refugee status, considering Jordan is pretty much ethnic palestinian in makeup then work with some solution as to the lands within the bloc as you are suggesting.
A Jewish friend of mine talked about visiting the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin, and for Germans under thirty the guilt is already mostly gone. Increasingly, the camp guards etc. who committed the Holocaust are also fading from memory, and in another 25 years they will be the great-grandfathers of the ruling class rather than the grandfathers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
The US tends towards memorialism more than Europe, so perhaps it's more of a thing over there but here's we're returning to "business as usual" to the extent that during the financial crash the term "Anglo-Saxon banker" was declared with a nod and a wink, and a candidate for London Mayor can be openly anti-Semitic without being pilloried.
Maybe it's time for the Israelis to lump it? The commitment to a "Jewish Homeland" was never intended to produce a soverign state, and that state has frankly become an embarrassment to the West.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
War is war. Both sides attack civilians and should expect nothing less in return.
I wish we'd just keep the whole region as isolated from us as possible, instead of keeping "key interests" there and supporting this state or that state. Other than the oil in the oil states, there is nothing of interest there that we don't already have within the EU. If they want to kill each other, rather than wring our hands over how it never ends, we should just leave them to it. If there is any legal way possible, I'd strip anyone who enters that region of UK citizenship. That guy whose son appeared in Syria got it right. His son was a traitor to his country. Similarly with that British-Jewish guy a few years back who harped endlessly on about doing aaliyah and joining the Israeli army. If they identify with an identity other than British, wash our hands of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Now you know how I feel about all those twats who serve in the IDF then come back to the US and live the rest of their lives. I dont mind if you want to move to Israel and serve, just dont bother coming back and living here if you feel so strongly about defending your "home."Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
'I don't know what your point is, Fragony, but I think that your ideas on how to solve the conflict are insane.'
I didn't mention any ideas on how to solve the conflict Haxie, I just said that I don't feel sorry for the Palestinians. They are already treated better than they deserve. They get more aid than any people in the world. If it's about their homeland it's already there, it's called Libanon. The Palestinians are invented they don't exist, it's a refugee camp. Got any landmarks of a civilisation to show me or is it just one big township. Hamas is very clear about what they want. PLO is less loud bu they can't be trusted either.
Dead Palastinian Boy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28124329
To be fair, they aren't sure if it was a revenge killing. Either way, pretty despicable.
To be fair, they aren't sure those three boys were killed by Hamas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Wasn't there a case a couple of years ago there Hamas got blamed for a dead boy and it turned out to be just a regular domestic murder?
Fair enough.
Well some Hamas leaders did praise the episode, albeit without claiming specific "credit" such as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
And I think everyone should get a unicorn for free...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
I respect your solution, but the odds of it happening in this century is extremely bad, to say the least.
Lol you forgot the rainbow, shame on youQuote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Which is not to say that it wasn't an ethnically or politically motivated killing - but I don't see any suspects as yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
I'm sure they did - but Israel has no proof and has already begun blowing up houses just for kicks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
It's not hard to see why these guys think the only good Jew is a dead Jew, given that the vast majority of Jews they meet want to kill them and actively try to do so.
Sounds familiar, same sort of thing that happened with american irish and the IRA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Sad, really sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Yeah, it's terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Racism is pretty common, though, and as ugly as Israel can be we need to keep it in context.
More seriously, it has frankly become an embarrassment to plenty of its own citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
To the west it is a liability with a severe case of psychopathy at best, and a little hellhole actively competing for "most insidous caste system based on ethnicity and religious fundamentalism" at worst.
Case in point: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...851982465.html
The sooner we disentangle ourselves from this entirely, the better. Who knows, it might even give us the opportunity to formulate a sane strategy towards the Middle East that gets us something in return.
Looks like earlier speculations of the Palestinian kid being a victim of a family feud were wrong. He was probably burned alive by extremist jews. How can you do such a thing. Pouring gasoline over someone and actually set someone on fire. How screwed up can you be, that boy probably never hurted anyone. fu
Exactly that. Monsters don't have borders and neither do innocents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Pretty amusing to hear the stammering from my extremely Zionist friends: "Oh no, the people who did this probably were those Israeli Christians or something, a Jew could never do this" and "Im sure they are just lying or something, Haaretz is clearly Palestinian propaganda!" and even worse, "that kid deserved it for the murders of the three the Palestinians murdered."
The whole "blood for blood" thing makes me sick. Unfriended a few people from facebook over this.
An eye for an eye destroys the sunglasses industry... I might be remembering that wrong.
Well, it does say "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life"Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
If you want to see it in a literally Biblical context, then for every "Jew" the "Palestinians" kill and death should be returned in kind - until all the Palestinians are dead, down to the last man, woman, and child.
Like the Amonites.
The Amonites were already on a lengthy decline when they were finally finished off by the asteroid that took out the dinosaurs. No need to blame the Israelites for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Actually the Ammonites are still going 70 billion strong. Despite a 16 million year civil war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Attachment 13543
There was actually a point to my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
God told Samuel that the Amonites were all evil, and that was why they all had to die.
I'm sure the Israelis who think it's OK to kill Palestinians think they're all evil - yes - I'm absolutely serious.
"If you gaze for long enough into the abyss....."Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
I kept looking at this closing line....it could almost stand as an epigram for your generation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Well, it really is the best way to cut someone you dont see everyday from your life. Besides most of those calling for blood who I know are mostly in Israel now, which means Im not interested in talking to them anyways.
I am curious as to what you mean with that question in this regard, are you thinking of the framing where one side thinks "palestinians are all the monsters" and the opposite?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Why don't they just move? I'm sure there's plenty of land in the US midwest for example and no one will be killing them etc.
The same reason the mexicans can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Well the full quote isQuote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
so if I had to guess it probably means something along the lines of that people tend to become the thing that they are fighting after a long enough period. A classic example of this occurring would be Animal Farm.Quote:
He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.
See, you cannot truly expect a people to just get up and completely move, whether it be the Israelis or the Palestinians. Both sides has too many chips in play for them to relocate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
UKIP propaganda lied to me. :sad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Pff, non-europeans are so inflexible...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period
It's supposed to be about not using the enemies foul tactics against them, the so called "4ace to the bottom" where both sides try to outdo each other in nastiness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Pretty much. Both sides' protracted intransigence has allowed them to fall into this cognitively simple, but ultimately self-defeating rut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
If you stop thinking of the other side as a group of persons with hopes, dreams, aspirations, limited perception etc. -- just as you yourself possess -- it is all too easy to de-humanize them. The only way to win then is via eradication of the opponent -- which history teaches us always exacts a harsh if delayed price on the victor as well.
Rome's eradication of Carthage led, over time, to the destruction of the Roman Republic.
The USSR's eradication of Nazi Germany did damage that modern Russia is still coping with, and ended up creating the context for the USSR's own dissolution.
etc.
Plus, quoting Nietzche always has that "badass" cachet.....
I find it both amusing and frustrating how self-centered my friends on facebook are about the escalation in Israel. So many statuses and pictures on how the world isnt paying attention enough to Israel. "Oh noes there are rockets raining down on Israel and its not the top story of every news agency. Nevermind the fact that there are thousands dying in Syria, theres a civil war going on in Ukraine, bloody cartel wars in Central and South America, and other crises going on around the globe, but noooooo everyone has to fall into your narrow worldview, and gods forbid someone say they simply do not care enough about whats going on in tiny relatively insignificant country. Of course I told some people this in long-winded comments to their cries that nobody is paying attention, but in three cases my comment was deleted with no response by the OP, and in one case, I was even unfriended for my comment which is perfectly OK by me.
Ugh such stupidity and sheer ignorance of how the world works.
/rant
Save your anger on more meaningful things. Block idiots on facebook and don't pay attention to them anymore.
this will never be resolved....having visited Israel a few years ago it's impressive how even middle-class young IT professionals can turn irrational over a simple discussion of the politics of the area at lunch.
and we all know the proclivities of the hard core element on the other side.
2 groups of people can´t live in peace if they do not want to do so, and both sides have to much blood on their hands to claim to be a straight cut "good guy" in the situation.
it's political incorrect to say it, but possibly the situation could only be resolved by erecting a wall around both sides, providing both with weapons and letting them solve their issues, and let the chips fall were they may.
The one good point about supporting Israel is we can say we are meddling in the Middle East and it isn't for oil...
It's from Nietschze 'if you gaze long enough in the abysd the abyss gazes into you'Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Relevant video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY
I'd be blocking half my friends and most of my relatives....would get sorta quiet.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Well, in the long term Israel MUST annex the West Bank if it is to survive, that means they Palestinians must either be killed or forced out. However, it's foolish to assume the Arabs will, not at some point, produce a new Saladin which means that Israel will ultimately be destroyed after is his killed enough Arabs to convince the remaining Arabs to make a concerted effort to force the Israelis out.
Again.
Rinse and repeat in 500 years.
The only way to break the cycle is for the Israelis to integrate, but they can't because they're Jews and the surrounding people are Muslims.
The punchline, of course, is that some Jews did integrate - at the start of the last century they were living in Jerusalem, in Jaffa etc. They had integrated and converted to Islam - we call these people "Palestinians".
So much idiocy in one article.
Gods forbid that the POTUS call for restraint on both sides. Its almost as if he wants there to be peace and for people not to die!
:wall:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Mr. President, what is this man's four children, American citizens all, doing in the Israeli capital? If they're going to grow up thinking of Israel as home, do they really count as American citizens?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shmuley Boteach
Oh dont even get me started about people who claim to be upstanding US citizens yet continually declare Israel as the homeland. Ugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Well, before we get TOO heavy on them ALL Americans do that. Many Irish-Americans actively supported the republican terrorists during the Troubles, including sitting politicians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
But do they actively encourage people to move back to "the homeland"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
No, they just went and killed British soldiers, or sent money and guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Then they'd complain at another time that Britain was not supportive enough of America
Fair enough, did not know that. Either way, still makes me want to hit my head against the wall.
It is stupid regardless of who does it.
When you swear the oath to become an American citizen, you renounce all ties to your previous homeland AFAIK but I guess people just talk the talk as usual and then stop caring about what they just swore.
I can kind of understand why Jews cling onto the idea of a homeland in Israel. The reality is that many Jews in America have anti-Semites for political representatives, of both the left and right-wing variety.
No matter how American you feel hooah, I think there is still a sense that Jews are part of some Hollywood-Communist anti-America conspiracy. It might not be a mainstream idea but it is there and it is tolerated within mainstream parties as the case of Legvold shows.
I don't doubt it, I wasn't meaning what I said as an attack upon America. You would probably be right in saying Jews have more to worry about here in Europe than they do in America. Some even feel the need for a Jewish homeland in Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
It all just goes to show that Jews to this day aren't entirely welcome in the Western world. With that in mind I can understand why they would identify with Israel as somewhere where they feel they could belong and be free from persecution.
Americans who complain about the Jewish identification with Israel should stop electing anti-Semites to power if they want Jews to feel part of American society.
It doesn't explain why they think they have a claim on America though, even after moving abroad and declaring themselves for their new country. I think Sean Connery is a tit for getting involved with Scottish nationalism, despite being such a dyed in the wool Scot that he lives anywhere but.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Also, the argument you've put forward for Jews applies several times more to Muslims, in terms of feeling unwelcome. But to me British Muslims, same as British Jews, are British above all else, same as me, unless they declare otherwise.
I always thought it ironic that they cast Connery as the Spaniard and Lambert as the Scotsman.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
It is interesting how support for Israel is actually higher outside the monolith of Jewish American opinion:
http://happynicetimepeople.com/mad-t...tell-jews-jew/
So apparently a cease-fire was called, but Hamas kept sending rockets, so Israel started bombing again.
:wall:
One of the problems, of course, is that Hamas is not a discrete entity but a coalition. It does not speak with one voice or act according to one set of directions.
This is a standard Israeli trick. They attack, kill hundreds, offer a "ceasefire" which has some totally unacceptable conditions - then make a big fuss when this ceasefire is rejected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Hundreds of Palestinians dead after collective punishment attacks from state of the art military. Zero Israeli dead after random crude rocket attacks from fringe group. This is not an even fight.
Pffffft, having as many civilians as possible killed is what Hamas is after. Cynical but true. Hamas has a better weapon, the media, and they play it like a violin, and everybody falls for it.
I thought Egypt offered the cease-fire?Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
And apparently one Israeli was killed by mortar fire yesterday.
Did they, or did they offer a way out of escalation. That was rejected. Hamas needs dead Palestinians more than a junk needs crack. In the meantime normal Palestinians who never harmed anybody get bombed because Hamas is more into pr then anything else. They are sacrificing their own, kinda screwed. Stop firing that shit and you won't be hit back, and continue herding your wives and loving goats, or was it the other way around. Stop firing rockets. You can say 'what's it to me', but antisemitism is what islamist colonists brought here and we just got rid of it, or should I call them immigrants, sounds better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
While simple enough on one level, "don't shoot at me and I won't shoot at you," the position you advance fails to consider the living conditions in Gaza. Lots of people crowded together, haphazard infrastructure, huge un and under employment, disproportionate numbers of youths to elders....violence is no less a certainty there than in Chicago's south side. Then you add in Hamas, which provides a focus for that frustration-generated anger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
As to the most recent Israeli attack, Israel is taking the easy way out by lumping all of Hamas into one label. Hamas is a kaleidoscope, and the shifting fragments do NOT always line up on one goal or set of behaviors. Hamas -- the larger leadership elements -- may very well have agreed to and kept this latest cease fire (hard to know). But some fragment repudiated it, acted, and Israel struck back at Hamas.
Is it ethical to punish all of Hamas and Gaza for what may have been the unsanctioned actions of a comparative few? One argument says yes -- that if you claim leadership you must enforce your authority upon your membership and if you cannot you will be held responsible. The other position holds that efforts should only be focused upon the guilty few. The second route is much harder, requiring time and intelligence resources and some degree of cooperation.
Cognitively, it is much simpler to just lob rockets at known targets....much easier than doing the meticulous detective work required for specificity. Besides, the rockets have a shelf life and you eventually have to throw them away if you don't use them.
Of course it's not ethical to punish the whole of Gaza, but is that happening? The Palestinians are the victim of their own government and whoever they are that are really controlling them. I can't blame Israel for being the way they are, I am glad I am not an Israeli who has to have an opinion on it, and I am extra-glad I don't live in Gaza. But who should you really blame. Hamas or Israel? I wouldn't know, but I am absolutily rooting for those that aren't out to destroy everything, guess who I root more for.