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looks like it was not an accident, the French autorities think it was done on purpose. No terrorist-attack at least, but suicide with taking 150 people with you. This is really a tragedy there will probably be nothing to bury, that plane looks like it was evaporated you can only see a wheel, the rest is gone.
RIP victims.
ffz if you have to commit suicide put a bag on your had and take a bath, so many lives lost
One of the main theories with that Malaysian flight that went missing was suicide as well IIRC.
I normally have sympathy for people who commit suicide but its hard when they do it in such a way. RIP to all who lost their lives.
This would be murder/homicide, not simply suicide - to state the obvious.
Heard the announcement this morning. Nauseating.
Said prayers for them and the families. Simply horrifying.
This morning I watched the press session with the Lufthansa CEO. He was, to my ability to read body language (not a German speaker, so I don't know all the cultural norms there) sincere and earnest in his responses. Moreover, he had a look on his face that I have come to associate with a person experiencing heartburn but whose antacids aren't kicking in.
Then this afternoon I heard a snippet from Merkel's address on the issue. I don't believe I have ever heard her sounding so emotionally affected by something -- though admittedly we only get limited exposure here to German political events.
I am getting a sense that many in Europe are quite horrified by this event.
Of course we are horrified, it's horrible. The -alledged- guy who -alledgedly- did this is supposed to have had a mental breakdown, but that was years ago and he passed all psychological tests. Nobody seems to understand it, employers nor relatives, he seemed to be perfectly sane is what they all say. From the video's I saw the system is pretty foolproof, but systems can fail. That he was steadily breathing untill the impact doesn't really say anything either, it could really be an accident. I hope it was. Also bears mentioning that the fabricant of airbus-planes warned against a defect in certain models, this was one of them, that if a plane reaches a certain angle the software takes over and the pilot isn't in control anymore. There is a door at the front, what if it opened for some reason, pulling the plane in that angle. I am not going to draw any conclusions just yet.
update: major fuckup. He didn't just have a mental breakdown, he was in a closed institution. People can fully recover of course but becomming a pilot? A tad risky I would say. Since when is the background of employers not checked anymore.
People can fully recover so I'm waiting for me, can still be an accident but it at least looks bad. Not comfirmed: he might be a convert to islam.
There is one problem with the accident theory: The pilot didn't get into the cockpit.
The cockpit door should have opened after 30 seconds if the copilot had passed out, unless the copilot actually denied the opening of the door. The following video explains it with some scenes that remind me of Harry Enfield sketches:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs
You can probably scretch both things from my update, he apparently was never in a nuthouse, and if he was a convert also probably isn't true, he had a relation with a muslim girl but that's about it it seems.
Seen the video, but electrical systems can fail, ask any windows user. If the airplane has a certain angle manual control is shut off, I am still not sure if this was actually intentional, very likely it was but still not sure. The police found some stuff in his appartment but no word on what it is for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Latest I heard is that police found torn-up sick notes in his house that said he was unfit to work. Didn't mention what illness the sick notes spoke of.
It's a really bad idea to compare the systems on a multi-million-Euro airplane to a multimedia computer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
And what Rhyfelwyr says, it seems like the copilot wasn't fit for work and went there anyway.
Swedish media report that it was a suicide... And he just took the others with him...
He locked the other captain out, and crashed the plane.
Also, he seems to have some type of illness... He was already "free of work" for healthcare reasons, but didn't inform his bosses and flew anyway... We all know what happened afterwards.
Absolutely HORRIBLE...
I have a mountaineer friend who used to work at the same ski school as me... He was/is part of the "rescue"... Handling dead people isn't exactly what normally comes with the job, but he said every qualified mountain guy in the vicinity went there at once, and called in their friends from around...
So well, a thought for those unsung heroes... They don't even expect pay, they are volunteers...
RIP for the victims of this horrible deed. I cant understand why cant people novadays just kill themselves, but have to take innocent lives with them in the process.
I would do the same given this guy's resources.
I find it so strange that liberal democratic societies prefer to extract every last bit of productivity out of citizens rather than facilitating their deaths in appropriate circumstances.
That might be because our societies are geared completely towards productivity, there are people who get depression from being unemployed because they feel worthless and not appreciated etc. And other people call them lazy leeches on society, which probably does not help. Now this pilot wasn't unemployed so he probably had other issues. Given that he was excused from work and went there anyway, him having been overworked sounds unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
But what was so bad about his resources? He could have rented a small plane and crashed that or jumped in front of a truck from a highway bridge or whatever, lots of means to suicide without killing more than a hundred other people. Yes, the truck driver may get emotional damage but he'd rather get that than die in a plane crash I assume.
That said, the investigation is not entirely concluded yet, it just seems very, very likely that it was a kind of amok-suicide, apparently experts say people do that if they don't just want to die but also hate or blame the world somehow. Maybe something happened to him that has not been revealed yet. :shrug:
Do keep in mind that I like to be provocative at times. Anyway -
By "resources", I mean this:
"Active" forms of suicide are extremely difficult to carry out and are usually impulse-actions. For the long-term suicidal, there is almost no hope for such an outcome. I count suicide by firearm in this category, though it is perhaps the least "active" form of them all.
"Passive" forms of suicide - such as dying in an explosion - are excellent for such individuals in that they require a minimum of effort in the moment. They are, unfortunately, very difficult to actually set up. Most individuals, for example, do not have access to bombs or, as it were, planes.
If the state were to provide a simple medium-term vetting process to exclude the impulsively suicidal, then the long-term suicidal could be terminated in controlled circumstances. Hopefully better-thought-through than the United States lethal injection process, at any rate.
TLDR
Never has there been so much wrong in such a simple post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
The guy just killed 150 people, and you are seriously saying you would do the same thing to all those individuals purely because society didn't make it easy enough for you to kill yourself? Then there is your bizarre idea that Western societies' opposition to euthanasia is nothing to do with traditional ideas of the sanctity of life, but in fact is all about maximising productivity from citizens?
In fact, before I go on, I must remind myself that I rarely understand your point, and I should probably just stop now.
If you want my serious view, then it's not about "sanctity of life" either but a holdout from Christian morality concerning God's "ownership" of human souls.Quote:
Then there is your bizarre idea that Western societies' opposition to euthanasia is nothing to do with traditional ideas of the sanctity of life, but in fact is all about maximising productivity from citizens?
Clearly, Western liberalism minus this particular influence would demand that the 'agency' and 'true will' of the passively-suicidal individual must be upheld. From tolerance, it's a short leap to pragmatism: much better for society to administer death in a systematic manner than to have to deal with "public fallout", so to speak.
A tragedy.
Having dealt with depression coupled with work in transportation, the emerging explanation makes sense.
Caught in the U-Turn environment of thoughts of self destruction, being left alone in the cockpit; Motive, Opportunity, Desire!
Depending on how long the co-pilots condition lasted, you do eventually hit a wall; "while I can rationalize reasons to no do it just now, at least it would stop the *ing thoughts/dialogue/debate" silence, sweet peace.
The other aspect involves his position.
If he informed his employers, what reaction could he expect?
If your expectation is to simply lose your job; you shut-up and try to muddle through.
Not many countries, companies, employers have supports in place to aid people in his condition; where supports exist you can look forward to reduced earnings; a "file" on your condition that will follow you the rest of your life and the stigma that comes with being "not quite right"
Still a tragedy that it should come to this.
I kinda wonder why his shrink didn't warn his employers, must be confidality, in hindsight easy to say but he knew there were risks. What if had been a technician at a nuclair plant.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32098578
Kind of sounds like an asshole.Quote:
"one day everyone will know my name"...would at times wake up screaming "we're going down".... "it is because he understood that because of his health problems, his big dream of a job at Lufthansa, as captain and as a long-haul pilot was practically impossible,"..."One day I'm going to do something that will change the whole system, and everyone will know my name and remember,"
Oh, that's just the typical mass-murderer profile. You know, workplace violence, school shootings, etc. - same idea.
What would be their equivalence of waking up screaming "we're going down"? This isn't just depression or extreme narcissism. This is a multi-tiered complex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Yeah, that's implicit. Almost all these guys have both "personality" disorders and "affective" disorders.
I do find it somewhat weird how the press is now tearing apart his life and how they act around the victims.
There are apparently reporters in a village where half a school class died on the plane and they offer money to children for them to make some kind of prepared statements in front of a camera. Maybe the pilot was disgusting but many here say the conduct and self-respect of a lot of the press crashed together with that plane.
Hrm, I'm certainly getting the "news companies are glorifying the perpritrators of crimes and thus encouraging copycats" vibe from this.
A psychoses ain't just a cold, waiting for the official reports but he should have never been there in the first place imho, missed the radar so to say and that is probably all circumstances that were never considered by anyone. Probably nobody nobody to really blame for this happening if you are being reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossLOPER
No arguing that. Well we don't have a definitive diagnosis, and will probably never will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Looks like it was exactly what it looked like, second black box rules out any doubt that it could have been an accident. It was pretty likely from the go of course, but it can always be unfortunate circumstances.
What a mess.
Gets even worse, Lufthansa knew that he had serious psychological problems, and should have shared that information by law.
Perhaps that decision boils down to a simple scarcity issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Luckily we have already developed drones... :creep:Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
oh ouch, that's going to hurt. If that was a consideration Lufthansa is in trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Heh, I saw an article in German that said some pilot came out and said only the Lufthansa still pays a relatively decent wage, all pilots are under stress due to cost cutting measures with the heavy competition and that he doesn't know of one colleague who hasn't fallen asleep for a few minutes in the cockpit at least once. He also said the wages are so bad that some pilots live in the cheaper countryside and have to drive several hours to get to their plane, which just adds to their being tired. The point was apparently that the situation with pilots is far worse than one would think and it's mainly due to capitalism.
Apparently the problem isn't all new though:
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan...er17-2010jan17
Quote:
The Pinnacle pilot says he has seen his co-workers take short naps or have trouble staying awake while in the cockpit. A 2008 study by NASA found that about 80% of regional pilots said they had nodded off during a flight.
Isn't that why we have 2 pilots though?
I mean... I honestly don't care if one nods off, as long as the other one is awake...
But yeah, price dumping has really left aviation in shambles... We should seriously start to take another look on it, like we do with farming where people are willing to pay more for a more humane environment...
Being honest though, taking turns power-napping sounds like a good solution.
Well, I assume that:
a) part of the point is that it didn't turn out well when one pilot left the cockpit to pee (can also be replaced with nap I guess)
b) it doesn't help a lot if both pilots pretty much arrive tired for their shift
c) power naps do not replace actual sleep and some pilots also thought of that, it's mentioned in the article
d) part of the problem are regional flights were the pilots probably can't power nap in the short time they are in the air and probably have other things to do between flight, like checking the airplane, filling out forms, coordinating with staff and so on, the article says international flights over longer distances are less problematic and less stressful, especially since the number of takeoffs and landings is lower there, which put the pilots through a lot of stress since they are the most dangerous parts even for experienced pilots.
How about we ban flights under a certain distance and start to research really fast trains for those distances instead? Imagine the resources one could save by not propelling people 10km into the air only to come down again 20 mins later. The pilots who lose their jobs will apparently earn more as train drivers as well, possibly because of the lower fuel prices.
High speep trains are cool, it only takes a few hours to get just about everywhere. No need to check in, almost never any delays. I never fly because I am scared of hights, my personal philosophy is that if something is higher than a tree I really don't ought to be there.
Underneath of here is a pilots take on this...
Funny, a part of it very much mimic MY thoughts on the subject...
See, I AM a ski instructor. I haven't worked as it for years now, except teaching the odd friend and family... But part of me will always be a ski instructor, no matter what career I have.
I take people up mountains, and bring them down safely. That is my creed, that is my honour.
AND THIS IS WHAT I CAN'T GET ABOUT THIS PILOT!!!
If you want to take your own life, by all means... Who am I to judge all in all...
If you want to do it in an airplane... Again, by all means, just rent a plane and go fly yourself...
But how the **** can someone bring down an airplane with 150+ people on it, because HE wants to die?
I have tried to wrap my head around this, but I still don't get it. Terrorists blowing themselves up I can GET, not agree with of course, but GET on some level... But this just... I have no words.
I can only view it from my own perspective... It would be like ME wanting to kill myself... And how I do it is by taking a skiing group who trust my ability to an extreme risk avalanche area...
I just... I have no words. The thought is so far beyond me that I don't even know how to handle the thought... How can someone hate himself so much that he kills not just himself, but his HONOUR, his creed? This is a hatred or bitterness that goes to levels I may not be built to understand.
Not in my wildest nightmares would I even have been able to conceive the idea of me willingly risking other people's lives, people who trust me, people who I have made into a large part of my life to serve...
I. just. don't. get. it.
https://disciplesofflight.com/letter...wings-tragedy/
@Kad: Didn't the pilot's girlfriend say he made made comments about wanting his name to be remembered and him generally being a bit of a narcissist? Maybe he just wanted his 15 minutes.
Well the backroom is talking about his dumb ass instead of the 47 treasonous senators, so I'd say he succeeded.
It's not necessarily just a hatred of oneself, it might be combined with a hatred for the entire world/society at large etc.
Or he went into such an internal rage that he simply "forgot" about all the other passengers for a while. Although he must have thought about the pilot at least in order to intentionally lock him out.
Was over for a while as I understand, might, might not. I am not trying to upset you Hax before you think I am being mean, but there is a particular thing I consider.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
US Policy on this is for one of the flight attendants to replace the pilot who is heading off for a piss so that there is never a one-person-in-the-cockpit solo situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
It is possible that he just didn't think of anyone else.
Thoughts of self-destruction => intensely internal focus => today is a good day to die => oh, hey! I'm all alone in here!!! => success
pretty likely probablyQuote:
Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny
As I already said, he must have locked the pilot out intentionally, surely he kind of thought about at least one other person at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny
I'm not so sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fregory
I'm sure a few extra long toilet breaks were arranged for in the past...Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Me neither, but they found nothing in his house that suggests that it wasn't an impulsive act. I imagine that if he really wanted to make a point out of doing this he wanted to ensure everyone knows that he did it on purpose. As I understand the relation with the girl who claimed that he wanted his name to be known to everybody was already over way before this happened. That in itselve isn't such a weird thing to say, a gifted musician or painter could say the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Take that Breivik, also a mass-murderer with narcistic tendencies, he wrote a manifest of hundrerds of pages.
I meant that if he just thought of himself and forgot everything around him, the other pilot would have come into the cockpit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
But when the cockpit door alarm started he must have consciously locked "the other people" out of the cockpit, which usually entails thinking about them in some way or another. One might even say he actively denied them the right to live in that moment/decided to kill them too.
Probably. I don't think things like this will ever be foolproof. I doubt he never considered the people on board but just wanted to drag them down with him. But there is still way too much unknown to us, there will probably be formed a commision that will look very precise at everything. Just a wild thought, the plane had six hours delay because of maintenance, the front-hatch could have opened dragging the plane down, a problem guys who make airbus-planes warned abouf, he speeded up before the crash, that could also mean that he did that to gain hight. That he breathed steadily also doesn't have to mean anything, he could have come to peace with his life being over. Maybe he didn't do this on purpose, you never know. I think he did but I can't know. Easy on any conclusions by now is probably best, but it looks bad in any case. There is also the convert thingie, hate to say it but that's also a consideration, should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Again, he had to turn a switch into a position that one can safely assume is rarely used for this switch. If he did not turn the switch into that position on purpose, the other pilot could have entered the cockpit with the safety code. Given that the other pilot very obviously tried to get into the cockpit for quite a while, it would be safe to assume that the co-pilot locked him out on purpose, he certainly didn't open the door to let the other pilot in in order to recover the airplane together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
There are only two scenarios where he didn't lock someone out consciously:
a) the switch became conscious and moved itself (it seems to be safeguarded against accidental movement by having to be pulled out first)
b) the other pilot was just banging on the door for fun and noone noticed that there is no door opening alarm while they were listening to the audio recordings, the pilot basically faked wanting back into the cockpit
You can probably tell me how likely these scenarios are.
I'm not sure how to judge what he did but that this was all an unfortunate accident seems very unlikely. You'd think if he was dealing with a technical problem, he'd open the door for the pilot to get back in. If he used a technical problem to commit suicide on purpose and take everyone with him it doesn't really change a lot. Even if the problem was hard to recover from, why did he not let the pilot in to help him do that?
No idea, it is VERY likely that it wasn't an accident, but I want to know more before I besmear his name. It can still just be an electronic fairrue, unlikely but possible. I am just not making any conclusions yet. It looks absolutily bad, depression, possible psychosis, convert to islam, but it hasn't HAVE to be any of that. I find my take on why he speeded up at least pleasible if there was a problem with the hatch, it could make sense in the scenario I gave, which I don't believe myselve by the way.