Another terrible race motivated attack.

White man (21 yr old) wearing the flags of Rhodesia and South Africa on his clothing, killed nine in a black church in South Carolina, including the pastor. Specifically said before murdering the victims, "I want to kill black people", and that "black people are running the country".

Charleston shooting suspect Dylann Roof 'wanted to ignite civil war'

http://gu.com/p/4avk6

Watching the Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore, and guests are in agreement that the confederate flag needs to be removed from the capitol and for streets to be renamed something other than the names of confederate generals. To this I say let's go full steam ahead and restart radical reconstruction and eradicate this element of southern culture.

Removing flags and changing the of streets is stupid, confederates fought for many reasons. Glad they caught the guy.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

confederates fought for many reasons.

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That's a myth the South promotes.

Interesting, his age.

I do have to admit I don't understand the gun control angle. Assuming the gun used was the pistol the shooter's father gave him as a birthday present a few months ago, then it's really unclear to me what sort of targeted gun-control policy could even be relevant.

Well any policy might be good.

Like puppies and pistols don't make good presents.

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Watching the Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore, and guests are in agreement that the confederate flag needs to be removed from the capitol and for streets to be renamed something other than the names of confederate generals. To this I say let's go full steam ahead and restart radical reconstruction and eradicate this element of southern culture.

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You're an idiot if you think outright cultural suppression will in any way make things better.

Let me preface this by saying I am a staunch federal man. Something about an all powerful federal government just makes me all warm and fuzzy.

Many Americans do not understand the Civil War. Unfortunately, to truly understand America, you have to understand the civil war. Some of this misunderstanding comes from the way the war is simplistically taught in schools, some comes from the fact that what is now probably a majority of Americans families were not even here when the war happened, some comes from the simple maxim that people do not really care, I will try not to dwell too much on that point.

Mind you, this is all a generalization and I wish I had more time.

The Antebellum south was a vestige of a forgotten time. In keeping with the spirit of the place, the south was averse to anything even hinting at modernity, preferring to move at their own languorous pace. It is not unfair to say the last feudal society in the west died at Appomattox court house. The North by contrast, had begun a full industrialization akin to Western Europe. Fueled by Northern Coal, navigable rivers, and a steady stream of immigrants the north was very much modern.

The souths power, which had always been disproportionate, began to wane at a very quick rate. The whole free soil debacle is for another time. Suffice to say, the south saw itself boxed in. The Federal government was caught between two economic systems and chose the north (internal improvements and tariffs) over the south (ag loans and export focused). To say the war is simply about the moral pox that was (and I suppose is) slavery is a gross oversimplification that lets half the country off the hook for the shameful way it has treated Black Americans for all but about 10% of its history.

Schools never go into the tariff or freight charges. They never talk about the lynching of free blacks in Pittsburgh or the murder of abolitionists in Boston. In the north it is about slavery and in the south it is about some kind of nebulous "way of life". This is because nuance is hard, time is short, and most educators do not understand the war themselves.

Most peoples families were not even here at the time of war, immigrating at a later point. This is not a bad thing (immigration is an integral part of Americana) it is only to illustrate the fact that there is no personal connection for these people. I think that counts for something, however tenuous.

The south lost 1/3 of its men and did not recover until after WWII. The recovery was spearheaded by internal (north-south) migration and later immigration from Latin America. The side that wants to take away the confederate flag is talking past the people who want to keep it. They do not understand it.

https://i.imgur.com/idQTpRO.png

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

The souths power, which had always been disproportionate, began to wane at a very quick rate. The whole free soil debacle is for another time. Suffice to say, the south saw itself boxed in. The Federal government was caught between two economic systems and chose the north (internal improvements and tariffs) over the south (ag loans and export focused). To say the war is simply about the moral pox that was (and I suppose is) slavery is a gross oversimplification that lets half the country off the hook for the shameful way it has treated Black Americans for all but about 10% of its history.

Schools never go into the tariff or freight charges. They never talk about the lynching of free blacks in Pittsburgh or the murder of abolitionists in Boston. In the north it is about slavery and in the south it is about some kind of nebulous "way of life". This is because nuance is hard, time is short, and most educators do not understand the war themselves.

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"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth..."

“Corner Stone” Speech
Alexander H. Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America
Savannah, Georgia
March 21, 1861

"(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed." From the Confederate constitution.

Slavery was the issue the Confederacy decided to fight over. Why they chose this has economic reasons, but the choice was all about keeping slavery, rather than reforming the economy.

Edit: And that picture... Racism, bias and some points worth discussing but are quite hard to separate factors.

Statement: Institutional racism in the US forces the black population into a perpetual underclass with poverty and crime as a consequence.
Proof: That picture.

Truth: Insufficient data. It proves that blacks are generally an underclass (shocking I know). And that there's social factors doing at least some of this (one set of data shows that by 100%) Gives no data on why and what social factors. White seems to be a vague concept though. It's 63,7%, no 72%.

Topic wise, I'm not sure. Data used as propaganda leads to hate crimes down the road?

Let me continue Veho's great picture:

FACT: Whites genocided 95% of the original Americans.

FACT: 95% of the blacks (or their ancestors) didn't come to america voluntarily.

FACT: Talk about HIV all you want, god found other ways to kill white people: http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/skin/statistics/race.htm


SOURCES:

- Your mom

- my nose

- my butt

- the streets

- center of misleading statistics

I like how the statistics show black people are 'bad' because they are poor and starving in ghettos, how dare they rely on food stamps! Should take it a step further and suggest they should starve to death instead of the pittance poor week.

Not like actually providing better welfare support will significantly lower crime-rates or removing what is there wouldn't cause significant higher rate of crime..

So you are telling me that when you have institutions that destabilize the ability of a community to establish nuclear families, you get poverty, violence and welfare?

I could have sworn Rhy made a post describing aspects of UK society destabilizing because of the deterioration of families. I need to find it so I can respond to these "statistical" arguments.

In case you wonder what I mean about propaganda.

Reading that info like you normally would (so no through reading), would you say that a black murderer are?:
a) Vastly more likely to murder a white person than a black person.
b) More likely to murder a white person than a black person.
c) About the same.
d) less likely to murder a white person than a black person.
e) Vastly less likely to murder a white person than a black person.

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Originally Posted by Veho Nex

picture

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Do you sympathize with the killer Veho Nex?

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Edit: And that picture... Racism, bias and some points worth discussing but are quite hard to separate factors.

Statement: Institutional racism in the US forces the black population into a perpetual underclass with poverty and crime as a consequence.
Proof: That picture.

Truth: Insufficient data. It proves that blacks are generally an underclass (shocking I know)

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Yes, blacks are the underclass in societies that mix white/black or asian/black or wherever blacks go that isn't Africa.

You CAN argue that it is because of institutional racism, as you argue.

You CAN also argue that blacks culturally and/or genetically are subpar, and that's why they generally end up in the lower end of most scales measured by the western society.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

I like how the statistics show black people are 'bad' because they are poor and starving in ghettos, how dare they rely on food stamps! Should take it a step further and suggest they should starve to death instead of the pittance poor week.

Not like actually providing better welfare support will significantly lower crime-rates or removing what is there wouldn't cause significant higher rate of crime..

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Why are they poor? Why are they living in ghettos?

Is it because everyone hate blacks, or is it because blacks just doesn't seem to be able to show their worth?

Look at asians that join western societies... They can come from totally devastated backgrounds, and they still not only function, but generally prosper in white societies.




So yeah, there are two ways of looking at this issue...

One way is to say that blacks don't do to well is because of RACISM...

Another way is to say that blacks are treated as they should be in a free market economy...

And yet another way is saying blacks probably should get their testosterone in check and work on their social ethics.

Furthermore we have the perspective of "let blacks be blacks, and let ME live MY life without them troubling me or my children".



This is ALL very generally speaking, of course.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

You CAN also argue that blacks culturally and/or genetically are subpar, and that's why they generally end up in the lower end of most scales measured by the western society.

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Are you still pretending you're not a white supremacist?

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Another way is to say that blacks are treated as they should be in a free market economy...

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Hitler said the same thing about the jews.

@Tuuvi No, but I lived in Oakland where in my neighborhood 4 murders occurred in 1 year, less than 1 block from where I lived. Not a single one was perpetrated by a white person and 3 of 4 were black on black and 1 was black on Asian. It was not a predominately black neighborhood being mostly Asian (Chinese, Korean, and Indian). I believe there is something seriously wrong with race relations in this country, especially when the media only focuses on white on black violence. No one seems to give a damn if its black on black or black on other minority but the second white on black comes out it's suddenly #blacklivesmatter.

The whole perception of "woe is me and my fellow racial herd we are down trodden and left without a hope in the world" needs to end. There are 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanics that live in ghettos and still work their asses off to get ahead where we have 4th, 5th, or 6th generation blacks that believe shit needs to be handed to them. There are plenty of whites who think the same thing. It's the Govt that perpetuates the hate when your avg hard working American gets the brown end of the stick just so these bums can leach off the system. I see help wanted signs all over and I work 2 jobs myself, why do these people (black, white, or otherwise) feel they need food stamps, financial assistance, or whatever to make a living.

I don't really care about black on white crime as any racial vs white crime is going to be skewed because we are majority of population. There is obviously a large portion of Americans who will look at those stats and wonder why we even allow them to continue in our country. There are white ghettos just as there are black but we don't see the same crime statistics. This whole situation is sad but everyone is focusing on the wrong side of the argument. The guy was tired of what he saw and he hated them enough to throw his life away for it.

@Husar, R.O.C. man. Who cares where the people came from. Whites conquered the world and really I don't feel the need to say sorry for something someone else's ancestors did 300(0) years ago. They did what they had the capability to do, expand, kill and make room to grow so they could expand and kill more. No other nation or race of people would have done it any differently. And I say someone else's because with my Irish and Finnish heritage I doubt my family were slave owners or assisted in the slave trade in the late 1890s when they came to America or my Scot heritage when they came here in the Early 1900s.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Hitler said the same thing about the jews.

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Source?

Hitler has said a lot of things about jews, but it would be news to me that he said that they did to poor in a market economy?

Wasn't it more about them acting like vultures in the market economy for their own gains instead of working for the best of the nation at large?

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Originally Posted by Graphic

Are you still pretending you're not a white supremacist?

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I'm a factualist...

If I was a white supremacist, I wouldn't conclude that asians are smarter than whites, or that blacks run faster than whites...

I just look at the scoreboard mate...

And on that scoreboard, blacks don't do to well in western societies. Heck, blacks don't even do that well in their own societies or even nations.

Am I wrong?

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Source?

Hitler has said a lot of things about jews, but it would be news to me that he said that they did to poor in a market economy?

Wasn't it more about them acting like vultures in the market economy for their own gains instead of working for the best of the nation at large?

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That's not what you said, you said they are treated as they should, and he thought/said he was treating the jews as they should be treated or are you going to doubt that as well now?

According to the Ukraine thread that makes you just like Hitler because you use his rhetoric.

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Originally Posted by Husar

That's not what you said, you said they are treated as they should, and he thought/said he was treating the jews as they should be treated or are you going to doubt that as well now?

According to the Ukraine thread that makes you just like Hitler because you use his rhetoric.

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My point is that blacks might do less well in western societies because of cultural and/or genetical factors.

People at large are less eager to pay someone well or even hire them if they do not hold up to the standards set. It MIGHT be reasonable to argue that blacks just don't do that well in a free market.

I mean, seriously, with the amount of black people we have included, in a free market economy it would mean that, by your logic, the FIRST company that gets on the ball and start using the black labour force would profit like crazy, no?

But yet it never happens?

I say it again...

This CAN be because of structural racism.

This CAN be because blacks are not really worth much in the work market because of cultural/genetical reasons.



I know I am repeating myself, but seriously, why wouldn't a company or two have picked up on the HUGE potential that is the black population? By your reasoning, with blacks being on par with other races, the first company to invest in that workforce would sky rocket...

But yet, 2015, being black is still generally seen as a detrimental factor.


And from what I have experienced in my life, for good reasons.

Don't read me wrong though, I judge every person I meet individually. But in a macro-perspective... I mean, c'mon.. You would have to be blind not to see cultural differences.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

You're an idiot if you think outright cultural suppression will in any way make things better.

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Denazification worked. Tear down the symbols, root through the institutions down to the town level and systematically remove those in charge with a history of racial discrimination and their immediate subordinates.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Denazification worked.

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After a war that affected almost every German in one way or another. Kinda different from racist attacks that are quite rare.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Denazification worked. Tear down the symbols, root through the institutions down to the town level and systematically remove those in charge with a history of racial discrimination and their immediate subordinates.

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So... The correct way to handle a democracy is to go mayhem on democratic principles when someone challenge it?

You sound like RVG here, as you can read from my signature.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

After a war that affected almost every German in one way or another. Kinda different from racist attacks that are quite rare.

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It's not the racist attacks that is the problem, it's the institutional racism that targets black men and dismantles black families. This attack is just the tragic outburst that forces people to admit that there is a race problem.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

My point is that blacks might do less well in western societies because of cultural and/or genetical factors.

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No.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

It's not the racist attacks that is the problem, it's the institutional racism that targets black men and dismantles black families. This attack is just the tragic outburst that forces people to admit that there is a race problem.

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This.

When what we call middle class was being formed in the USA, blacks simply weren't allowed to become a part of it. The current plight of blacks is the result of institutional racism that is still happening (to a lesser extent) now in the US.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I know I am repeating myself, but seriously, why wouldn't a company or two have picked up on the HUGE potential that is the black population? By your reasoning, with blacks being on par with other races, the first company to invest in that workforce would sky rocket...

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Haha, yes, because companies are eager to solve the economic and educational problems of future employees. Next you are going to tell me that Goldman Sachs looks for poor, badly educated white/asian kids because they know that they have this huge potential from their genes or white/asian culture. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Veho Nex

@<a href="https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=16500" target="_blank">Tuuvi</a> No, but I lived in Oakland where in my neighborhood 4 murders occurred in 1 year, less than 1 block from where I lived. Not a single one was perpetrated by a white person and 3 of 4 were black on black and 1 was black on Asian. It was not a predominately black neighborhood being mostly Asian (Chinese, Korean, and Indian). I believe there is something seriously wrong with race relations in this country, especially when the media only focuses on white on black violence. No one seems to give a damn if its black on black or black on other minority but the second white on black comes out it's suddenly #blacklivesmatter.

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? The normal reaction when they play it up is black on white crimes. Your nice picture does it for example. Blacks are vastly less likely (factor 5x) to target a white guy for murder, than what would happen if they target people randomly. That data skewing is entirely due to black being a minority. Having a 10% minority, with the same crime rate as the other 90% would be 100 times more likely to commit a crime at majority than the majority committing a crime vs the minority. In this case, it's 20%=25 times. Either blacks aren't committing more assaults than whites or that increase are as large a the decrease to assault over the race barrier.

The big white on black cases has been about overly gun happy police that happens disproportionally to black people or vigilantes that decides to go after that black dude. Notice something in common?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Veho Nex

The whole perception of "woe is me and my fellow racial herd we are down trodden and left without a hope in the world" needs to end. There are 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanics that live in ghettos and still work their asses off to get ahead where we have 4th, 5th, or 6th generation blacks that believe shit needs to be handed to them. There are plenty of whites who think the same thing. It's the Govt that perpetuates the hate when your avg hard working American gets the brown end of the stick just so these bums can leach off the system. I see help wanted signs all over and I work 2 jobs myself, why do these people (black, white, or otherwise) feel they need food stamps, financial assistance, or whatever to make a living.

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I take it you're a regular Fox News viewer?

Short version. People working are common, people working their asses off and are talented in finding all job opportunities are less common. That applies in all social classes, but are more notable among the poor of course. If it simply was that people needs to pull oneself together under the threat of starvation, then we wouldn't had those huge issues in Eastern Europe after communism fell, or Romani beggars from Hungary all over Europe now.
That doesn't work. Well, it sort of do, alternate sources of money and food goes up rapidly, like begging and crime.

And the current situation aren't healthy for those "bums". As our "It's all about genetics" resident Kadagar can tell you, killing your own child is genetically stupid and a significant sign of mental unhealth coming from non-genetic sources. That is a situation they want to get out from, not something they choose to stay in because they're happy or content.

But by focusing on this, you can distract the poor from that they're working poor nowadays. You can still need food stamps while having a full time job.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

After a war that affected almost every German in one way or another. Kinda different from racist attacks that are quite rare.

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Outright murder is rare. Institutional racism is very common and the denial of it is a notable sign of it. Here's Fox News, presidential candidate nr 1, nr 2 denying that this was a racist crime. It was an (atheist) attack on Christians or even an "accident" caused by taking medicines.

Differential treatment from the police.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKGZnB41_e4

It's not necessary starting out as racism, but the police are recommended to search for alternative revenue streams. Police Chief Magazine are a big one in the US. Short version, loot money from the population (some suggestions are actually decent).
Anybody with half a brain are going to figure out that you can't do that policy on people with influence. So you'll target people whose complaints won't be heard. And in the US, you only need to watch the skin colour to find a decent marker.
That's for example the boiling pot in Ferguson.
"This practice explains why Ferguson Municipal Court issued 24,532 warrants and heard 12,018 cases in 2013. That averages out to 1.5 cases and three warrants per every household in Ferguson."

Without denying that that institutional racism exists, they do kinda cheat in their social experiment, the white guy is wearing it on his back, the black guy has it hanging next to his hip. The results will probably be the same vica versa but at least play fair.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Denazification worked. Tear down the symbols, root through the institutions down to the town level and systematically remove those in charge with a history of racial discrimination and their immediate subordinates.

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And now we have husar, what an Improvement.

The south have done nothing close to deserving such a crackdown and to institute such a white wash of their history over the actions of a few is a pointless injustice and the same breed of cultural suppression that was perpritrated against natives and slaves in the colonial age.

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The south have done nothing close to deserving such a crackdown and to institute such a white wash of their history over the actions of a few is an injustice of such a scale as to be a complete betrayal of the every good thing to come out of your revolution.

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This is one of the most delusional things I have ever read on this site. :no:

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

And now we have husar, what an Improvement.

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

I apologize for being this way. How can I make up for it?

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

This is one of the most delusional things I have ever read on this site. :no:

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Oh its one of those threads, where people are refreshing faster than i can edit out mistakes.

And dont BS me, you have read far far worse.

Wow, dude, you made it even worse.

How illuminating, surely that was the epitome of explanation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Without denying that that institutional racism exists, they do kinda cheat in their social experiment, the white guy is wearing it on his back, the black guy has it hanging next to his hip. The results will probably be the same vica versa but at least play fair.

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If that would be the single difference between "What'cha doing" and "CODE RED", you're sort of missing a few steps. It's not like it'll take a major time difference to become threatening between the two positions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

And now we have husar, what an Improvement.

The south have done nothing close to deserving such a crackdown and to institute such a white wash of their history over the actions of a few is a pointless injustice and the same breed of cultural suppression that was perpritrated against natives and slaves in the colonial age.

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The flag wasn't a major symbol until the Civil Rights movement began to take shape in the 1950s, says Bill Ferris, founding director of the Center for the Study of Southern Culture at the University of Mississippi, It was a battle flag relegated to history but the Ku Klux Klan and others who resisted desegregation turned to the flag as a symbol.

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BBC

Using it as a rebel flag without acknowledging its racist connections is a white wash.

1. The white wash I was reffering to was the renaming of the streets. What flag the capitol flies is irrelevant.
2. Racist connotation? You really think most southerners are using the flag with the KKK in mind?

I'm not going to see St George's Cross as a racist symbol because a couple of EDL assholes used it. The french dont consider the tricolour as a racist symbol because the National Front uses it.
Why should the south pay such heed to the KKK's usage?

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I'm not going to see St George's Cross as a racist symbol because a couple of EDL assholes used it.

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But it could become one, you see? Are you one of those people who says that no one should have a problem with openly-displayed swastikas because it 'meant something else' in Asia? The fact is that the swastika has become strongly associated with the Nazi regime and its values, just as the cross became a symbol of Christianity, and so on with every geometrical or pictorial symbol ever used by humans. This is quite literally how symbols work.

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Why should the south pay such heed to the KKK's usage?

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Well, that's exactly what they did, according to Ironside's source...Now, you could claim that the symbol was re-oriented toward some different evaluation or connotation, but this is largely untrue or irrelevant, because where it is not directly linked to white supremacy it is directly linked to an identity predicated upon opposition to the Union and to the federal government, which even in itself should be quite an issue.

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What flag the capitol flies is irrelevant.

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Er, no, it's extremely relevant, and if you're some kind of super-libertarian devolutionist type like ICSD then it's exactly what you want to see. On the other hand, for unionists it's quite repugnant.

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You really think most southerners are using the flag with the KKK in mind?

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What they "have in mind" isn't even ultimately the point. The point isn't even that its usage contributes to a culture of Southern exceptionalism that can easily recreate or reinforce perceptions of the Otherness of non-Southerners and non-whites in general.

The flag is really small-fry. However, as part of a larger program of social reconstruction, it obviously has to be re-evaluated (i.e. devalued) by Southerners, even leaving aside the goal of reducing racial animosity. What it represents to those who flaunt it is automatically problematic without even bringing racial history into it.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Are you one of those people who says that no one should have a problem with openly-displayed swastikas because it 'meant something else' in Asia? The fact is that the swastika has become strongly associated with the Nazi regime and its values, just as the cross became a symbol of Christianity, and so on with every geometrical or pictorial symbol ever used by humans.

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During WWII the collaborative Russian liberation army used tricolor and St. Andrew's flags which are now adopted as the National flag of Russia and Russian Navy respectively.
Attachment 15646 Attachment 15647 Attachment 15648
Does it mean that modern Russia glorifies nazi collaborators?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

But it could become one, you see? Are you one of those people who says that no one should have a problem with openly-displayed swastikas because it 'meant something else' in Asia? The fact is that the swastika has become strongly associated with the Nazi regime and its values, just as the cross became a symbol of Christianity, and so on with every geometrical or pictorial symbol ever used by humans. This is quite literally how symbols work.

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I am one of those people who say that asians shouldnt have to change thier symbols just because someone warped the swastika's meaning in the eyes of the public. Same with the Rebel standard, to quote office space "Why should I change? He's the one who sucks."

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Well, that's exactly what they did, according to Ironside's source...Now, you could claim that the symbol was re-oriented toward some different evaluation or connotation, but this is largely untrue or irrelevant, because where it is not directly linked to white supremacy it is directly linked to an identity predicated upon opposition to the Union and to the federal government, which even in itself should be quite an issue.

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BBC's magazine is such a great source and speaks for everyone, just ask the "canada's ugly secret" thread.

I find most interpritation and connotation claims to be worthless in general; mixes of confirmation bias and agenda pushing. What matters is the intent of the ones flying that flag. That intent will be different between every flag waver and I doubt anyone here can be trusted to identify any universally applicable intent without lying or toeing a party line.

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Er, no, it's extremely relevant, and if you're some kind of super-libertarian devolutionist type like ICSD then it's exactly what you want to see. On the other hand, for unionists it's quite repugnant.

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It is irrelevant to this argument because if the united states capitol takes down a flag they put up it isnt imposing thier will on anyone but themselves. The issue I have is ACIN's desire to impose that will on the entirety of the the south, specifically to make them comply with his political views. If nothing else but because none of his proposed edicts will have his stated effect.

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I am one of those people who say that asians shouldnt have to change thier symbols just because someone warped the swastika's meaning in the eyes of the public. Same with the Rebel standard, to quote office space "Why should I change? He's the one who sucks."

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Again, no - terrible analogy. It should be obvious that modern Southerners are more continuous with 19th century Southerns than Nazis are with centuried Asian symbols. A far better analogy would be that we in the West frown upon people marching around with a red armband with swastika, and would frown upon it a hell of a lot more if those people claimed that this sort of symbolism was part of their cultural identity, but no it doesn't have anything to do with Nazi ideology why are we goose-stepping no reason just exercising...

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BBC's magazine is such a great source and speaks for everyone, just ask the "canada's ugly secret" thread.

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says Bill Ferris, founding director of the Center for the Study of Southern Culture at the University of Mississippi

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You're really reaching here, aren't you?

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It is irrelevant to this argument because if the united states capitol takes down a flag they put up it isnt imposing thier will on anyone but themselves.

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Congratulations, you are now even more libertarian than ICSD. So why were you critical of the Scottish independence movement again?

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The issue I have is ACIN's desire to impose that will on the entirety of the the south, specifically to make them comply with his political views.

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Right now, any government building in the United States that flies a Confederate flag is giving an official endorsement of a separatist regime and separatist ideology more generally. That this would trouble anti-secessionists (who are also a majority in the South anyway, by the by) should neither surprise you nor invite your indignation.

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Also, repugnant? It's just a flag, coloured cloth, the north's interpritation of it's meaning may be repugnant (to them) but frankly I find most outside interpritations in general to be worthless; mixes of confirmation bias and agenda pushing. What matters is the intent of the ones flying that flag and I doubt anyone here can be trusted to tell us without toeing a party line.

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What? Completely-backwards paragraph. The North and the South share an interpretation, it's just that many in the South value it positively while elsewhere it is usually valued negatively.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Again, no - terrible analogy. It should be obvious that modern Southerners are more continuous with 19th century Southerns than Nazis are with centuried Asian symbols. A far better analogy would be that we in the West frown upon people marching around with a red armband with swastika, and would frown upon it a hell of a lot more if those people claimed that this sort of symbolism was part of their cultural identity, but no it doesn't have anything to do with Nazi ideology why are we goose-stepping no reason just exercising...

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Except for alot of them it is part of thier cultural identity, Thier ancestors marched under it, it's been included in ther history books since the war ended and it's been used in reenactments without shame since 1913.

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You're really reaching here, aren't you?

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No I'm dismissing with a pithy comment, I couldnt care less about this man's opinion of what meaing the denizens of the south takes from the flag, especially when his comment is proceeded by:

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He likens it to the swastika but others see it very differently. Indeed, the flag has been compared to a Rorschach blot because it means several things at all at once, depending on who is looking at it.

"All symbols are liable to multiple interpretations but this is unique in its power and ability to inflame passions on all sides, and the volume of interpretations and preconceptions about it make it unique in American history," says John Coski, author of The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem. He has even seen it displayed in Europe, where it has become shorthand for "rebel".

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It means different things to different people, the article showed that at least there were differences between these two men.

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Congratulations, you are now even more libertarian than ICSD. So why were you critical of the Scottish independence movement again?

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Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...83/040/cff.png

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Right now, any government building in the United States that flies a Confederate flag is giving an official endorsement of a separatist regime and separatist ideology more generally. That this would trouble anti-secessionists (who are also a majority in the South anyway, by the by) should neither surprise you nor invite your indignation.

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Never said it surprised me and the invitation was putting it on a public forum.

I stand by my statment that ACIN's an idiot if he thinks outright cultural suppression will in any way make things better, and he's a worse idiot if he thinks it is even warranted.

Call me when they stop paying taxes and start shooting feds.

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What? Completely-backwards paragraph. The North and the South share an interpretation, it's just that many in the South value it positively while elsewhere it is usually valued negatively.

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...How can they have the same interpritation if they differ in interpriting it's value?

Read strikes post again, the north and south dont share an interpritation on why teh war started let alone the meaning behind the war's flags.

I certainly don’t support the killer’s disgusting act, but I do understand it. The statistics shown in the infographic posted earlier in this thread are collected and published by our own government, and yet they never seem to make it into the ever present national discussion on race. In a rational, logic-based society, police would be encouraged to use data and statistics to target those groups most prone to criminal activity. In America, that’s called police brutality. In a rational, logic-based society, policing strategies based on such statistics that have proven successful would be standardized and duplicated throughout the country. In America, politicians are dismantling them. In a rational, logic-based society, it would be assumed that a group disproportionately prone to criminal activity would also be disproportionately represented in the prison system. In America, that’s institutional racism. In a rational, logic-based society the existence of a group that consists of 13% of the population yet commits 52% of the nation’s homicides would result in more policing of said group. In America, the problem of ‘over policing’ of the black community is common knowledge. In a rational, logic-based society, the fact that whites are 25 times more likely to be victims of black violence than the reverse, yielding 300,000+ victims annually, would result in significant public outcry. And yet in America, the #blacklivesmatter movement has swept the nation. It’s like we live in some Orwellian nightmare where everyone is aware of the reality surrounding them but no one is willing to acknowledge it for fear of reprisal from the thought police.

Having lived in a black majority city that was built by whites and once prospered under their leadership, I can understand the frustration and hopelessness of standing by while once proud institutions crumble, a once strong economy falters, and once beautiful and safe neighborhoods transform into drug and crime infested hellholes, without being able to utter a word because racism. The attack is a tragedy. However, it is just a symptom of the distorted way in which Americans have been conditioned to think about race.

Ignoring even the fact that the infographic is quite simply false and a gross example of statistical malpractice, you speak of logic and reason, yet I see you are careful to tiptoe around both the etiology of the problem and the indications for treating it.

Go back to SBPDL, please.

That was the biggest load of hogwash I have seen in a long time and writing "rational logical-based society" four times doesn't make what you said either rational nor logical-based, considering the lack of awareness for basic socio economic factors are being thrown out the window.

Considering crime-rate is higher for people in poor situations, and that 'black' people are disportionately poorer than 'white' people, a rational logic-based society would be aware of this, and act in the interest of reducing crime by improving living standards and giving opportunity to those who need it most. As such, people who use logic and think rationally would come to the conclusion that scapegoating over race is silly and pro-actively encouraging segregation and victimising of a populace based on amount of melanin in their skin cells would not decrease crime-rate but by inverse, increase it, exasperating the issue, leading to a stronger self-fulfilling cycle.

A rational logic-based society would actually conclude "treat others how you would like to be treated yourself" and actually start to promote a society based on these tenets, and improve the situation for everyone. As such, a rational and logical-based society wouldn't victimise people into a detrimental underclass, unless they are actually some kind of sadist and enjoy the thought of being trampled over by society, which in their case, they should volunteer to be in that position without putting others in it.

You're proving my point. You've been conditioned to think of any and all racial disparities as purely a function of socioeconomic condition without bothering to apply, pardon my repetition, a rational, logic-based approach to verifying your assumption. While controlling for socioeconomic factors can bring other ethnic groups to parity with whites, statistical analysis simply does not prove that out for blacks. I'm sorry. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Monty

Go back to SBPDL, please.

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Such intellectual insularity and close-mindedness towards other points of view isn't healthy, and is actually the same kind thinking that caused this tragedy.

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You're proving my point. You've been conditioned to think of any and all racial disparities as purely a function of socioeconomic condition without bothering to apply, pardon my repetition, a rational, logic-based approach to verifying your assumption.

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Not quite. Leaving aside the vociferous asseverations and ideological commitments of both broad "sides", the facts are as follows:

1. Since the end of the Reconstruction era, Blacks whether staying in the South or migrating to the North or West have been systematically exploited for their labor while being officially or quasi-officially segregated into under-invested slums. Both segregation and under-investment together created inherently weak and unstable communities.
2. Today, many large Black (especially urban) communities fare poorly on socioeconomic indicators, and overall crime rates are unacceptably higher than for most other possible groupings of comparable order-of-magnitude in population size.
3. Non-Blacks tend to look down on or ware Blacks, meaning that a widespread cultural bias (manifesting primarily with respect to the heuristics of skin color/facial morphology and voice quality/speech accent) leads to additional disadvantages for Blacks in their relationships with, for example, private employers and the judiciary at-large.

What we should take away from the three points above is that American political and civic institutions essentially 'ruined' the Black-American population through short-sighted policies based upon fear and contempt. The urban pathologies of the 1970s and 1980s did not spontaneously emerge from any post-war (i.e. WW2) federal policy or from the civil rights movement; they had been burgeoning from the end of the Civil War, and were only ever contained by severe repression and the coercive capacity of the non-Black population. The real problem today in concentrated Black communities underlying poor performance and outcomes, leaving aside whatever one may say of the acute effects of continuing under-investment or hasty discrimination, is that Black communities formed in the wake of emancipation and migration were by design so weak that very little sense of communalism developed, and inasmuch as it did it tended to be tamped by the political and economic disfavors done over the years. So now, then, many Blacks tend to be radically-individualistic. The Conservative/Libertarian ascendancy since the 1970s has only reinforced these tendencies.

Now we are getting to the crux. The most fundamental disease affecting underperforming Black communities is quite simply the very same disease that is constantly and publicly tearing at the very fabric of American civil society. It surprises me that even though some rightist commentators like to point out the relative social conservatism of "Black America", they have not hit upon this point, namely that there is really very little separating a Black "gangbanger living the thug life" and the usual suspects constituting the Tea Party. All the major ideological narratives offered in the reported discourse on race in America today are therefore wrong.

The etiology is quite clear, and many of its corollaries persist even today. No 'contained' reform, reparation, or rehabilitation targeting either some designated "powerful" or "privileged" group, or some "deficient" or "disenfranchised" group, can possibly produce any meaningful social change or useful outcomes. The "problems" affecting Black America are utterly inextricable from those affecting America as a whole, so splitting hairs about differences in specific "values" or whatever will not prove persuasive.

Only a wholesale reconstitution and reorganization of the political, economic, and administrative structure of the United States could possibly bring Blacks (or for that matter Aboriginals or Latinos, but by their own idiosyncratic histories that I will defer on) 'up to par', so to speak.

There's no real reason to believe that such a thing would occur in the medium-term however, so right now all we actually have is sanctimonious bloviation between serried ranks of fools, charlatans, and malingerers.

I don't really even give a crap about political or social issues anymore: you're all a bunch of BSers BSing BSers. All I have now is my (thankfully) impotent pedantry...

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Such intellectual insularity and close-mindedness towards other points of view isn't healthy, and is actually the same kind thinking that caused this tragedy.

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Didn't catch this edit. Kind of like Hitler saying that "Jewish science" is too plagued by "intellectual insularity and close-mindedness towards other points of view" to contribute anything to Der große Deutsch Physik....

You make a fine casuist, sir.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

If that would be the single difference between "What'cha doing" and "CODE RED", you're sort of missing a few steps. It's not like it'll take a major time difference to become threatening between the two positions.

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To me it would absolutily look different, if you do a social experiment you must eliminate everything that could alter the results. This looks like they were out for an outcome.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

In America, that’s called police brutality. In a rational, logic-based society, policing strategies based on such statistics that have proven successful would be standardized and duplicated throughout the country. In America, politicians are dismantling them. In a rational, logic-based society, it would be assumed that a group disproportionately prone to criminal activity would also be disproportionately represented in the prison system. In America, that’s institutional racism. In a rational, logic-based society the existence of a group that consists of 13% of the population yet commits 52% of the nation’s homicides would result in more policing of said group. In America, the problem of ‘over policing’ of the black community is common knowledge.

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Do you trust the police?

Would you trust a police using you as a piggy bank by giving you random fines?
Would you trust a police that randomly arrest you to fill a quota?
Would you trust a police were an arrest commonly ends up with a hospital visit or even death?
Would you trust a police who arrest you on bogus charges and then later admits to lying in civil court and ends up with no consequences at all?
Would you trust a police that made SWATing an actual thing in internet harassment?
Would you trust a justice system that keeps you imprisoned for years without conviction on a crime that amounts to shoplifting?
Would you trust a justice system where you get out quicker by confessing and sitting off the time than await the case to even come to trial?


A rational, logic-based society knows that people trusting to police makes wonders for reducing the crime ratio and generally improve the situation in the area. There's strategies that does just that, which includes a heavy police presence in the area, but since the police is friendly, the population now trust the police.

Most of the US police does not employ these methods, as they're expensive in manpower. And doesn't involve idea's such a black youths are thugs that deserves what are coming for them, when they are shot to death.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

In a rational, logic-based society, the fact that whites are 25 times more likely to be victims of black violence than the reverse, yielding 300,000+ victims annually, would result in significant public outcry. And yet in America, the #blacklivesmatter movement has swept the nation. It’s like we live in some Orwellian nightmare where everyone is aware of the reality surrounding them but no one is willing to acknowledge it for fear of reprisal from the thought police.

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A rational logic-based society calls that utter stupidity.

Hi, I'm from 20% minority Blue and have a rage issue. If I attack a random guy on the street, I'll attack the 80% majority Green 80 times out of 100.
Hi, I'm from 80% majority Green and have a rage issue. If I attack a random guy on the street, I'll attack the 20% minority Green 20 times out of 100.

Blue does 20 random assults a year. 16 will hit Green, 4 Blue.
Green does 80 random assults a year. 64 will hit Green, 16 Blue. So with the same crime ratio, Blue vs Green is the same number as Green vs Blue, despite Blue being a minority. This will always happen, no matter the size of the minority.
Now, because Blue are a minority, we have to multiply that 16 with 4 to get the "true number". Suddenly Blue commits 4x times as many Blue vs Green compared to Green vs Blue, due to a statistical lie.

In the case of blacks, they do have more assults in general so their number will be higher. For the murder ratio, you have the total number making it possible to see if there's any targeting effects or a side effect of a higher base number. The targeting effect is negative (as in black vs white murders are rarer than random) in that case.

My flaw from yesterday was mentally running with 100 assults for both groups and missing that is defaults to a higher baseline for the minority.

Looks like Monty agrees with me. Radical Reconstruction it is.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Looks like Monty agrees with me. Radical Reconstruction it is.

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Or radical denial because what you want doesn't resonate all that well with what is. I haven't checked the numbers but the outcome seems to be a given to you whatever the variables.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

The attack is a tragedy. However, it is just a symptom of the distorted way in which Americans have been conditioned to think about race.

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I have no words. And neither it seems, do you.

FYI the Nazi Swatizka looks as much like the Buddhist one as a cross (t) looks like an x

As for the confederate flag. Apart from reenactment and dramas I would have put its usage in the same category or worse than burning the flag of the USA. The confederates lost in rebellion to the USA. So showing any official allegiance to it should be treated like showing allegiance to an enemy of the state like Al Qaeda.

Really?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Chihna.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...marra_bowl.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...alencia%29.JPG
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...x-Swastika.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Swastika

A cross is an x rotated by 90 degrees. A Nazi swatizka is a Buddhist swatizka rotated by 90 degrees.

Subtle difference which is more obvious when you use it daily like a t and an x.

=][=

Anyhow might as well destroy all Christian churches as they have a cross and the Nazis had iron crosses...

A cross (as in a crucifix or a t) has one arm elongated, a bit more than a 45 (not 90) degree turn.

Do you mean perhaps the plus sign on a calculator?

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As for the confederate flag. Apart from reenactment and dramas I would have put its usage in the same category or worse than burning the flag of the USA. The confederates lost in rebellion to the USA. So showing any official allegiance to it should be treated like showing allegiance to an enemy of the state like Al Qaeda.

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Meh, I dont consider flag burning hienous (waste of a good flag, imo) and I certainly dont think either should be illegal.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

But it could become one, you see? Are you one of those people who says that no one should have a problem with openly-displayed swastikas because it 'meant something else' in Asia? The fact is that the swastika has become strongly associated with the Nazi regime and its values, just as the cross became a symbol of Christianity, and so on with every geometrical or pictorial symbol ever used by humans. This is quite literally how symbols work.

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There's nothing wrong with Swastikas, and they're everywhere in Europe, on Greek temples, in Churches, on a mass of public buildings from the late 18th Century up to the 1930's.

The question of St. George's Cross is a pregnant one because during the 1990's it was seen as a somewhat crass and possibly racist, or isolationist, symbol. In the last 15 years there has been a reaction against that and the Cross is now regularly displayed on houses, Pubs, Town Halls etc.

The Nazi Swastika is only seen as a Nazi symbol because everyone else stopped using it at the outset of WWII to avoid confusion, hence its removal from the US 45th Infantry Division.

Personally, I think we should put Swastikas on everything, and we should especially encourage the JEwish Community to integrate the design into the floors etc of Synagogues - it historically appears in some texts and art associated with Judaism.

If we did that it would cease to be an effective Neo-Nazi standard.

Moving on...

You are advocating the destruction of Southern Culture, symbolism, traditions... etc. because of a perceived ingrained racism. Such a destruction would necessarily have to be complete, it would require a program similar to the residential schools one discussed in our other thread. It would not just be a question of flags, but of social conventions, cultural institutions, traditions, history and even dialect.

It would be necessary to utterly suppress both white and black culture in the region for a couple of centuries to final wipe it out, if you are saying that Southern culture is inherently racist.

Such projects have been tried with varying levels of success in the Old World, English suppression of Welsh, Cornish, Irish and Scots; French suppression of the Bretons and Occitans; Spanish suppression of Basques and Catalans; Swedish suppression of the Sami.

In Spain and the UK this resulted in multiple flare-ups of rebellion and more recently terrorism, in France it has been more successful (I recall something about Brenus being Occitan but looking down upon them) but still causes tension, the Sami are not a particularly happy people these days but I know less about that to be fair.

DeNazification worked because it only had to scrape off a Nazi veneer which had persisted for around a decade and a half, even then if didn't excise Germany of its sense of superiority or its natural prejudices, it just redirected them - both reappeared with the Eurozone crisis. No, what DeNazification did was make everyone ashamed of what they and/or their parents had done. The strategy was effective in neutering the movement but it wasn't really healthy for Germany and they're only no getting over it.

So, Nazi's were around for at most two decades and the shock delivered to expunge them has taken 70 years and counting to get over. The South has a history stretching back about four centuries, how long do you think it would take to wipe the culture clean and rebuild it?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

So, Nazi's were around for at most two decades and the shock delivered to expunge them has taken 70 years and counting to get over. The South has a history stretching back about four centuries, how long do you think it would take to wipe the culture clean and rebuild it?

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Around the same time because that is about the time it takes for the people who lived under the former wrong system to die out?

Only if you go the slash and burn, rip children from thier mothers breast method that takes you from the moral high ground and straight into the laurentian abyss.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Around the same time because that is about the time it takes for the people who lived under the former wrong system to die out?

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If that were true we would have succeeded in wiping out the Welsh and the Cornish over a century ago.
The South is not a "system" it is a culture.

Compare to the Roman attempts to wipe out Christianity, or the multiple vigorous attempts to wipe out Judaism.

Nazism itself was a relatively short lived political ideaology, so it was relatively easy to wipe out, because you didn't have to attack Germany's underlying culture (which remains largely intact).

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Personally, I think we should put Swastikas on everything, and we should especially encourage the JEwish Community to integrate the design into the floors etc of Synagogues - it historically appears in some texts and art associated with Judaism.

If we did that it would cease to be an effective Neo-Nazi standard.

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:laugh4: :laugh4:

Oh yeah, that's such a trivial undertaking right there, compared to taking fresh oaths of allegiance from one-time traitor-provinces.

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You are advocating the destruction of Southern Culture, symbolism, traditions... etc.

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Technically for all cultures everywhere.

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because of a perceived ingrained racism.

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No. Again, the radical reorganization of human civilization on the planet isn't pertinent to what we're trying to describe in the moment.

Anyone can display any flag they like - unless they happen to be public properties or institutions. That's really not a lot to ask, and anyone who protests that it is must essentially admit themselves willing to submit to the most radical devolution any organization might be willing to institute within any set of borders - because despite contemporary shenanigans and grumblings, there is no country in the world with a stronger central government than the United States. Nowhere in the world are local, regional, and national (i.e. federal) so tightly-enmeshed and interwoven as they are in the US - and don't even think to bring up some edge cases like mini-islands and city-states.

I am not joking when I say that the very concept of central authority is at stake here. The American executive must not waver.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Only if you go the slash and burn, rip children from thier mothers breast method that takes you from the moral high ground and straight into the laurentian abyss.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

If that were true we would have succeeded in wiping out the Welsh and the Cornish over a century ago.
The South is not a "system" it is a culture.

Compare to the Roman attempts to wipe out Christianity, or the multiple vigorous attempts to wipe out Judaism.

Nazism itself was a relatively short lived political ideaology, so it was relatively easy to wipe out, because you didn't have to attack Germany's underlying culture (which remains largely intact).

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The Nazis also had children, the turning point was when the whole population was forced to admit the crimes they let happen in their country. Some were forced to walk through concentration camps and "clean them up", bury the dead etc. A similar method would have to be found for the south so that they realize how wrong their ideas are and begin to not teach their children the old and wrongful ways. Currently the federal government does not put enough effort into crushing the racist myths like the ones we have seen in this thread.
It's not about wiping it out, it's about making them face the problems with their culture so that they will want to change themselves. At the moment they perpetuate the myths about how great it is and noone really opposes or challenges them.

That you think about ripping children away from mothers is worrying though.

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Originally Posted by Husar

The Nazis also had children, the turning point was when the whole population was forced to admit the crimes they let happen in their country. Some were forced to walk through concentration camps and "clean them up", bury the dead etc. A similar method would have to be found for the south so that they realize how wrong their ideas are and begin to not teach their children the old and wrongful ways. Currently the federal government does not put enough effort into crushing the racist myths like the ones we have seen in this thread.
It's not about wiping it out, it's about making them face the problems with their culture so that they will want to change themselves. At the moment they perpetuate the myths about how great it is and noone really opposes or challenges them.

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Except that, again, you're only talking about things a generation deep, and only a small proportion of Germans were actually involved in Nazisim directly, or actively supported Nazi genocides. There's ample evidence from the diaries of German soldiers that they were disgusted by the Nazis, but they were honourable to a fault and loyal to their country.

That's completely different to crushing hundreds of years of history - something the North actually tried with "Reconstruction". They flat out failed and Southern Stats had to be forced to integrate by Federal Law.

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That you think about ripping children away from mothers is worrying though.

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Don't make this about my character, this has nothing to do with what I believe, I'm telling you how it can be done - if you feel it's justified.

I know the history, I didn't make this up - it was a common practice in most the world until about 50 years ago, the aim being to create homogeneous nation-states out of disparate peoples. One of the best expressions of the phenomenon and its impact on children and their families was an Australian Film called "Rabbit Proof Fence", there was also a US film about the residential schools there, but I can't remember the name of it.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I know the history, I didn't make this up - it was a common practice in most the world until about 50 years ago, the aim being to create homogeneous nation-states out of disparate peoples. One of the best expressions of the phenomenon and its impact on children and their families was an Australian Film called "Rabbit Proof Fence", there was also a US film about the residential schools there, but I can't remember the name of it.

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Or even cultural genocide in its purest form, as practised by Genghis Khan. Kill all males above a certain height (and thus age). Enroll all remaining males in a homogenised culture defined by you. Go and do stuff under the name of the new culture.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

:laugh4: :laugh4:

Oh yeah, that's such a trivial undertaking right there, compared to taking fresh oaths of allegiance from one-time traitor-provinces.

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My understanding is that, at the time, the Federal Government had no legal mechanism to prevent a state secededing.

Anyway, that was my personal opinion, but I understand why it's not likely to catch on. That doesn't change the fact that if Israel really wanted to stick it to the Nazi's they'd surround the Star of David with a Halo of Swastikas.

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Technically for all cultures everywhere.

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Except yours - your culture is like your accent, you think you're the baseline and everyone else is deviant.

It's your culture that makes you want to wipe out all cultures.

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No. Again, the radical reorganization of human civilization on the planet isn't pertinent to what we're trying to describe in the moment.

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Everybody who tried such a "radical reorganisation" is remembered a monster because everybody resisted and they had to kill thousands to cow the rest.

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Anyone can display any flag they like - unless they happen to be public properties or institutions. That's really not a lot to ask, and anyone who protests that it is must essentially admit themselves willing to submit to the most radical devolution any organization might be willing to institute within any set of borders - because despite contemporary shenanigans and grumblings, there is no country in the world with a stronger central government than the United States. Nowhere in the world are local, regional, and national (i.e. federal) so tightly-enmeshed and interwoven as they are in the US - and don't even think to bring up some edge cases like mini-islands and city-states.

I am not joking when I say that the very concept of central authority is at stake here. The American executive must not waver.

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Sorry, is the Executive currently doing something?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Except that, again, you're only talking about things a generation deep, and only a small proportion of Germans were actually involved in Nazisim directly, or actively supported Nazi genocides. There's ample evidence from the diaries of German soldiers that they were disgusted by the Nazis, but they were honourable to a fault and loyal to their country.

That's completely different to crushing hundreds of years of history - something the North actually tried with "Reconstruction". They flat out failed and Southern Stats had to be forced to integrate by Federal Law.

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History is only in peoples' heads and we have far more modern ways to mess with them than the people in any of the previous attempts had at their disposal. At one point it may become possible to just overwite their memories with different ones.
Either way I was talking about a very big and proactive effort, not just dropping some leaflets.

Something like switch all the TV programs to federal propaganda and facts about how evil the south was half the day. Some may resist at first but once they are crushed the others will slowly start to change their beliefs. Korea was one country at some point and now the entire north is brainwashed to believe the Kims are angels and everybody else is an enemy. Don't pretend it is not possible.

You could start to strip them of benefits, make shops that you can only enter wearing a union flag etc.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Don't make this about my character, this has nothing to do with what I believe, I'm telling you how it can be done - if you feel it's justified.

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You keep misreading me. I quoted both you and Greyblades and that part was especially aimed at Greyblades, indicated by the fact that I used the same words he did.

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Except yours - your culture is like your accent, you think you're the baseline and everyone else is deviant.

It's your culture that makes you want to wipe out all cultures.

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Playing fast and loose with terms like that only leads to trivial tautologies.

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Everybody who tried such a "radical reorganisation" is remembered a monster because everybody resisted and they had to kill thousands to cow the rest.

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Connected to the above, my position on the issue is simply that if the perpetuation of humanity for its own sake is the baseline objective, then absolute autocracy is the most effective long-run form of governance. Autocracy and social reorganization have been attempted before, but never absolutely and never on a global scale.

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Sorry, is the Executive currently doing something?

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Come again?

I love how removing symbols of oppression, renaming streets and removing racist police forces is akin to ripping babies from their mothers.

I hope some people actually look at the policies of radical reconstruction during the 1860s and 1870s. It was because of these attempts at destroying southern culture that blacks achieved for the first time representation in office. Moderate Republicans at the time felt that simply encoding into law the rights of blacks would be enough to protect blacks once the South re-integrated into the Union. What became of that was Jim Crow and the perversion of the law through inaction by racist police and loopholes written into law by racist state governments. There are more than a few districts in the deep south who still have not elected a black representative since the 1880s, despite the demographics of the area.

You people have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the insidious nature of racism against blacks in the South and midwest.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

You people have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the insidious nature of racism against blacks in the South and midwest.

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I'm wondering if you do. The South you want to reconstruct appears to be more caricature than reality, decades behind the curve.

It's actually fascinating how close to Dylann Roof's line of reasoning you've come in this thread without even realizing it.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

I love how removing symbols of oppression, renaming streets and removing racist police forces is akin to ripping babies from their mothers.

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...a way to misread my post. You wanna do it within your lifespan you gotta get nasty, taking their flags and place names will do nothing but poss people off.

Calm down guys, no need to be nasty here. Comparing me to a murderer and calling me a dumbass hurts my feelings.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Calm down guys, no need to be nasty here. Comparing me to a murderer and calling me a dumbass hurts my feelings.

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Yeah that was going too far. Sorry... though I don't remember comparing you to a murderer.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

though I don't remember calling you a murderer.

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That was Panzer who did that.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Playing fast and loose with terms like that only leads to trivial tautologies.

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Using more words doesn't seem to get through to you so I'm mostly just trying to discredit your ideas in view of everyone else.

It's important to oppose totalitarian ideas, in fact it is essential.

You are the product of a certain culture, something you will be largely unaware of unless you have studied it. Your particular reaction to your culture is to want to "destroy all culture" but that's not actually possible, and what you would merely be doing is forcibly homogenising all cultures so that they are indistinguishable.

Such has been tried before in the Old and New World and pretty much every attempt qualifies as state brutality.

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Connected to the above, my position on the issue is simply that if the perpetuation of humanity for its own sake is the baseline objective, then absolute autocracy is the most effective long-run form of governance. Autocracy and social reorganization have been attempted before, but never absolutely and never on a global scale.

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Absolute Autocracy is the best form of government when the Autocrat is enlightened, the worst when he is a Tyrant.

Compare Augustus and Caligula.

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Come again?

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What is the American Executive doing about racism in the US?

Anything?

at all?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Absolute Autocracy is the best form of government when the Autocrat is enlightened, the worst when he is a Tyrant.

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Computers can be very enlightened.

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Originally Posted by Husar

History is only in peoples' heads and we have far more modern ways to mess with them than the people in any of the previous attempts had at their disposal. At one point it may become possible to just overwite their memories with different ones.
Either way I was talking about a very big and proactive effort, not just dropping some leaflets.

Something like switch all the TV programs to federal propaganda and facts about how evil the south was half the day. Some may resist at first but once they are crushed the others will slowly start to change their beliefs. Korea was one country at some point and now the entire north is brainwashed to believe the Kims are angels and everybody else is an enemy. Don't pretend it is not possible.

You could start to strip them of benefits, make shops that you can only enter wearing a union flag etc.

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OK, right, now I know you're joking.

Southerners have to wear union flags or not be served in shops... like a Star of David.

Also, I know that you know North Korea kills any "citizen" who is in any way deviant, either bullet to the back of the head or a death camp.

In fact, North Korea is the perfect illustration of my point - a society reshaped by brutality and terror.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Computers can be very enlightened.

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No, they can't. As things stand computers just run calculations, the calculations humans tell them to. You could theoretically extrapolate what the world's greatest leaders would do given a set of variable from their speeches, writing etc. but what happens if you program in Ghandi and Julius Caesar and their opinions conflict?

Computer goes crazy and kills everyone by crucifying them whilst giving them free bread?

That's assuming your programmers are anything like enlightened, most modern computer programmers are poorly educated in a general sense, they don't study philosophy or metaphysics or literature.