http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/22/two-lo...rport-5766899/
3 explosions followed in the underground.
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http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/22/two-lo...rport-5766899/
3 explosions followed in the underground.
The religion of pieces everywhere. Doesn't seem all that bad so far, 10 dead. This is something we will just have to get used to
Terrible. Hopefully nobody else gets hurt and all the Belgian Orgahs are safe!
Yep, more explosions. You just got to respect that.
I'm just glad we spent billions on making flying more secure, but nobody could see this coming.
Wasn't Maalbeek the well-integrated area where some unfortunate youth recently threw projectiles at police because they were angry over the arrest of their terror chief? Why didn't Belgium send them to Turkey in exchange for some Syrians?
Nobody could see this comming, big lol to that. It is what is. If you didn't see it comming I really don't know where to begin. I am shocked nor surprised. Just hoping nobody does something stupid to people who have nothing to do with it.
another one just went of, have a nice day. No reports on casualties atm
Europe simply has not been willing to take the measures that would help prevent what happened today. And to be clear, that would be to have security checks outside the airport in such a way that people are not piled up for easy pickings with a bomb-vest. Nobody on an airplane was injured and the measures which have been implemented safely secured the goals of why they were implemented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Attacks have been claimed by IS. That must be absolutily an enormous surprise to people who think is a good idea to import people from IS territory and take back people who learned how to make explosives there. wtf how could we know?
Well just listen to what they say themselve I'd answer
Rest in pieces victims
15 dead at Maelbeek and 11 more at the airport, according to the BBC.
Seems like just a two-off and not an hours-long situation like Paris, but that's a pretty crappy silver lining to put on things.
Belgians should be ashamed. They weren't tolerant enough and faield to integrate these poor, repressed migrants.
Glad you liked the sarcasm, but "I am shocked nor surprised." makes no sense grammatically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
As for doing something stupid to people who have nothing or little to do with 'it', isn't that what just happened?
And how would one do that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhobbit
Must be a relief for the people who got bombed waiting for an airplane today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhobbit
Indeed, the French revolution showed us that every underclass will snap eventually and do horrible things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Yes it does makes sense grammatically Hussie; I am [not] shocked [and neither am I] surprised. So shocked nor surprised it is. Got nothing more important to say
edit, yep, looks like returnees from Syria (not comfirmed) did it, just a question why can they come back after they joined IS and got training there. Are we insane.
Well yes
By forming an orderly queue with staffers making sure that people are not crowding up. I thought Germans knew how to queue, do I have to further explain the concept? Then you simply conduct security checks before people are allowed inside, you know, look for bombs, guns, knives etc. Not sure what was hard to understand, could you elaborate?Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
You're so cool with your slick sarcasm criticizing security laws which do not greatly infringe on civil rights and afford us a fairly large amount of safety on our flights. If you want to prevent terror attacks outside of the flights then you have to put other measures to use. Don't blame your home insurance when your car on the street was set on fire. Surely you are able to understand this?
I am neither shocked nor surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
That way it makes sense, but you wrote that you are shocked, which can be confusing when we are talking about a terror attack.
http://thewritepractice.com/how-to-u...nor-correctly/
Quote:
“I fear man nor beast!” Jay proclaimed as Frank stared at the python coiled on the branch over his head. (Wrong.)
“I fear neither man nor beast!” Jay proclaimed as Frank stared at the python coiled on the branch over his head. (Right!)
And then we'll be surprised if someone blows up the new security queue, killing 20 people?Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhobbit
The English know how to queue, never heard that about Germans.
No Hussie as I wrote it is perfectly fine, what you write isn't, neither in combination with nor is a double negative. If you want to be a grammar-nazi at least be good at it.
anyways, don't know if it's connected but some stuff is going on here as well. A supposed hostage situation and a few false alarms.
Given how explosions work, unless they use different bombs, the effect will not be as lethal. And the ceiling won't fall down on the people in the airport. Of course this also needs to be matched with more resources and possibly tools for our intelligence services and improved intelligence sharing through Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Oh, ordnung is not a German notion? It certainly is up here.
Viewers discretion, this isn't very pleasant to watch, I don't think it's too much but it's not up to me to decide
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven..._zaventem.html
When I returned from Russia I went through a security check the instant I set foot inside their airport, which repeated once more just like in eu airports before going to the gate. It's great to hear that good honest law-abiding Belgians can waltz into an airport while carrying fragmentation bombs and assault rifles.
Or into a metro station, a train station, a bus station, a taxi stand, a hotel, a shopping mall, a park, ...Quote:
Originally Posted by wooly_mammoth
It's interesting how you complain about the airport security when more people died and got hurt in the metro station.
Are we complaining or pointing out what improvements can be made? Speaking of which, if you do it Delhi style then you'd have security checks at the metro also, though those can get more crowded very easily. Would you care to guess why the metro had more deaths? Could it be because the explosions were in a smaller area and more force was thus applied where the bomb blast struck? Which again goes to show that a check outside (or right inside if it is cold as hell like in Russia) can significantly reduce the risk and damage of terror attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Why exactly do you not want to make it harder to blow people up?
Either circumstance is appalling. Of course the fundamental problem is not the nonexistence of that added security check (the point was that it can work without any real issues and can help avoid something like this), but rather the fact that the same kind of people keep murdering rampantly in largely the same areas and the governments that should be doing something about it appear to be unable to cope with it.
I think unwilling is more likely. Security services seem to be starved of finances and troublemakers are not reigned in anymore as they used to be. I prefer a peaceful approach to problem solving as most should be aware here, but if you have chronic troublemakers I'd step up the game and stop them with far more force than is legally allowed nowadays.Quote:
Originally Posted by wooly_mammoth
That does not mean throw all muslims out or racially cleanse the country, but as I said earlier, why were the people who rioted over the arrest of a terrorist not rounded up and arrested for a start?
These are the moments where you count to ten Hussie, it's horrible what happened no doubt. But it shouldn't really come as a surprise. Very high on my wtfdidyouexpect-list all this
I didn't say I'm surprised and I've said before that we should be much harsher with people who think we are a victim culture. I just don't agree with blaming everyone who wears a hijab, building walls everywhere and having more and more controls of everyone. Fight the terror and not the citizens. Proper police investigation that catches them before they get to blow anyone up is much better than reducing the number of people who get blown up. Sadly this kind of investigative work is really lacking in some countries here, much easier to plaster airports with security and pretend everything is fine now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
And then you have these people who say each country should do its own thing and then a Belgian moves to Paris and after he blew up a lot of people the Belgians tell the French "oh yeah, he was definitely a suspect, we knew that for a while!". Yeah well, let's just cooperate only on a business level, nothing that could go wrong.
Cursed with genuinly good intentions, musn't resonate all that well with reality sometimes ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
I'm curious, what do you mean by "far more force than is legally allowed nowadays"? Torture is generally proven to be a very bad way of gathering information. I'm sure there is some law in Belgium about support for terrorism etc that could be applied, or if not then written pronto. I've not read any news about riots after the arrest of the terrorist the other day, could you link some news article or suchlike?Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Of course catching them before they strike is better than minimizing the causalities and nothing else. But doing both reduces human suffering and keeps the citizenry safer than otherwise at what to me seems like a very reasonable price.
Because reality is all black and white?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
No, I'm talking about things such as no-go-zones where "police can't go". What's so hard about sending a few men in with backup nearby to lure out the troublemakers, record them on video and then hunt them down with the backup? Beat them or shoot them if necessary, but just cowering in the police station because you're afraid to go outside or hurt someone is hardly a solution. There was a story in a respectable newspaper where a victim identified the family that stole all the wedding gowns from her store and when she called police they didn't do anything because the entire family of perpetrators "is probably armed". Well, go away and come back with more men, then surround and arrest, if they shoot back, kill them. I have little patience for this kind of excuse. We have all kinds of special forces to deal with such situations but then we let these people exploit us even when we know exactly what is going on. That's a political and policing issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhobbit
There is such a thing as being too hard on crime, but also being too soft. It's especially perverse when robbers and murderers get away with it while the government runs TV ads about how downloading a movie can lead to you getting raped in jail...
Wouldn't that be nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
We have the same issue in Sweden, is it a German issue as well? Obviously yes, the answer should be to crack down. Though given the risk to the poor police officers in that little bait action, I personally would prefer a larger show of force with full on riot-police and possibly army assistance if the situation calls for that. To my knowledge the police have a right to use lethal force if they are forced to in order to defend themselves or someone else, hopefully less violent resolutions than killings on a grand scale can be used though. Such as subduing with gas, water cannons etc. But if needs must then needs must. We've had a lot of issues all of a sudden with women safety being threatened in a way which has not happened for over 800 years, and a plains clothes policewoman trailed by a bunch of big strong colleagues would go a long way towards catching the assholes who don't understand they're not in the Arab world anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Did you see the 60 minutes Australia report last Sunday? Very telling of the police status in that area. The man in the wheelchair should get a fricken medal though.
This is not something that I wanted as a part of Holy Week. More people to add to my prayers and fewer people who can focus on life's joys.
All very sad.
Are our Belgian Orgahs safe?
LeftEyeNine might be in Belgium now.
Not in Brussels don't worry
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/ter...angladdningar/
In Swedish press apparently the airport bombers had plans for even bigger explosions, but they could not fit all of their luggage into the taxi. Thank God they did not get the bigger taxi that they had ordered, or the death tole might be multiples higher. Two of the five suitcases were left where they took the taxi and have now been taken in by the police, and with only two bombs out of five detonating this could have been a whole lot worse. Even taking into account that the second bomb was placed where people would be running. Meanwhile in Delhi they wouldn't even have been able to get to the airport parking lot.
Towards the end of the article it is made clear that a trio of would be terrorists were arrested in Germany after having fled Belgium. The arrests were made possible thanks to anonymous tips, in true Fragony style, should we guess the religion of the people who gave the tip? Given that there was no international warrant for these guys and nobody knew their faces, it would have to be someone close to them...
Am I a trademark now lol. Tips probably were from Absesalam who was at the Paris massacre. All in all this attack is a bit of a fail
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI6dxjxq4Fw
So while in isolation from the outside world he had very intimate knowledge of their whereabouts? If it was Abdesalam then they would not have been arrested yesterday but earlier. But go on, you can keep on hating the Muslims, we all know that is what you do best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Oh sigh, Abdesalam wanted to exchange knowledge of upcomming attacks because he didn't want to get deported to France. Attacks have been prevented all over Europe. And yeah I hate muslims I'll tell fuck offQuote:
Originally Posted by Snowhobbit
Are you one of those who think it's inconceivable (princess bride tune) that IS sends troops to Europe and radicals infest homegrowns, tickle me if you want to make me laugh
I don't hate muslims I just hate islam (look up what the word means for me please)
Of course he did, but somehow I don't think part of the attack plan is to run away like rats from a sinking ship. Attacks are prevented regularly, these guys are most likely somehow connected to the broader network that planned the attacks yesterday and the Paris November strike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Keeping to the topic, the third bombman and supposedly chief bomb-maker of ISIS has just been arrested! Good job! :2thumbsup:
From the BBC livefeed:
A suspect arrested in Brussels this morning was not Najim Laachraoui, thought to be one of three men in a CCTV image taken before the Zaventem airport attack, some Belgian media are now saying
The newspaper, DH, which first reported the story, says the man detained earlier on Wednesday in the Anderlecht district had been misidentified.
Police and prosecutors have not commented on the reports and are due to hold a news conference within the next hour.
The press conference has now been held and the third bomb-man is unfortunately still on the run.
My most humble and sincere apologies to everyone who reads the thread for posting news updates and not letting Fragony spew his hatred all over the thread, I am truly honestly sorry for sharing information on the attacks and the aftermath, as well as discussing ways to prevent this directly and indirectly. :dizzy2:
Obviously there is not much more to be discussed about islamist terror attacks unless someone wants to volunteer and argue that they're justified or a good thing for his arms sales?
Volunteers?
Well it is still possible to discuss further developments to the stories as well as various ways of preventing further attacks like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
I just read that the suit-case bombs were full of small metal objects, which is why there are so many injured, their limbs have been taken off or shredded. Fortunately it seems that the bombs exploded around knee level on the trolleys, if they had been chest-high the death-toll might be in the hundreds instead. I suppose we should count the small blessings we get.
Husar is perfectly right. Neither nor is not a double negation but a paired preposition, so what he says about its usage is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Now on topic: what was Russian officials' reaction to the latest events in Brussels
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...sels-bombings/
The English in that article is a bit lacking so it is hard to get the exact message of what he is trying to say. But he seems to be saying it is good for Russia that civilians in Europe are being killed by terrorists? That is a disgusting thing to say, and he is head of the Duma, which I presume means he is the Speaker? Not sure why such a person got that position, maybe it is not as important in Russia? At least Putin clearly condemned it, hopefully the meeting the Kerry will produce some results or future actions to be undertaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
No he's not, it's neither or or nor. More interested in what Snowhobbit has to say atmQuote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
I linked another article with a better command of English and a greater gamut of opinions from Russia's top officials. Yet it doesn't cancel what Zhirinovsky said. And some correction: Znirinovsky is an ex-speaker of Duma (was one in 2010-11). They say he proclaims openly what Putin thinks but is too cautious to spill out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhobbit
Was my estimation of what Zhirinovsky said correct? And who are they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
Scoring cheap domestic points on a foreign tragedy is sadly all too common, and can especially be expected of a Russia which has decided to try to reclaim its former super-power status. Fortunately there are more sane and level-headed politicians, such as the Moscow Mayor and Mr Putin himself. Taking a broader view, more international cooperation against terrorism is needed to stop the mindless violence which strikes all over the world. Russia, Asian countries and not the least the Arab world which is the main financier of this madness.
Also since Russia managed to get NATO on topic, does anyone think Belgium will invoke Article 5 same as France did?
integrate harder.
They said on the radio that in France, Germany and a few other countries it is indeed so that a lot of people radicalize due to their bad circumstances, living in the banlieus or what they're called. On the other hand in the UK being a radical islamist is the new punk, where bored rich kids want to rebel against their parents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
In countries like Iraq, where muslims were integrated much better, it does not look better though. It is a poorer country however compared to France or Belgium.
Germany has so far had 12 attempts at an attack since 2001, 11 of which were prevented by the police, partially due to cooperation with other countries, specifically the US. The one that was not prevented was a failure I think. But that is where I'd begin in order to stop it, give the police the means to stop them before they happen instead of trying to stop people from gathering or something like that.
The soft factors that you mention also count. If our country is more loveable, it will be harder for radicals to tell children that it isn't. :7gardener:
Or be like the Vizegrat-countries and just don't let islam in. There is no islamic terrorism if there is no islam
Define islam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Answers in new thread, please! - Beskar
Let's see if the Belgian attackers were second generation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
The ones identified so far have been second generation immigrants with roots from north Africa originally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Keep personal attacks to a minimum. This is not debate user thread, it is one devoted to some appalling attacks in Belgium. Violence is never good.
Edit: I deleted 25 posts. If this happens again, I am giving everyone involved a time-out.
"They said on the radio that in France, Germany and a few other countries it is indeed so that a lot of people radicalize due to their bad circumstances, living in the banlieus or what they're called" What THEY say is simply not true.
First of all, not many radicalised, reason why the terrorists came from Belgium. Can I remind here that France has (had?) the biggest number of "Muslims", most of them atheists anyway.
Khaled Kelkal, the first of the home grown Muslim killer was a student at Lyon III La Doua, in Sciences... Boualen Benasaid was a sport teacher. The 2 thugs involved in this attack of Charlie Hebdo were indeed drugs dealers, but their brother and sister, raised in the same background are successful in their chosen carriers.
This is the usual story. The criminals choose to go for a ideology based on slavery, murder and racism. It is not due to social backgrounds or I would have done the same. So my brothers, sisters and family. I heard this on the BBC this morning. Made my blood boiling. Stop trying to find excuse. They decide to kill people and put bomb in dreaming of free virgins because they are looser, for the ones blowing themselves. The ones making money in selling oil to Turkey are all alive, and live well.
I lived in banlieux, so all my friends. It is not great, but it is cheap rent, and you can move from it. They are not ghetto, only if self inflicted. Not that life is rosy and tender, but it is not SOWETO.
What excuse? Who said poverty is an excuse for murder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Stop making things up.
So I read that the belgium police asked a Teacher to stop tweeting after he reported that his muslim students cheered the brussels attack.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I'm not sure what to make of it, the proof is on twitter but it's just one guy's word, and a very ambiguous word at that.
I cant read dutch and google translate is as useful as ever, can anyone give a proper translation? I think I'm missing something because of the language barrier.
It says "How can you teach when there are muslim kids in your class applauding?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
The guy in question isn't a teacher in the usual sense though - he's a yoga instructor. He says his tweets were inspired by some facebook comments he saw from muslim kids.
So.. He extrapolates from facebook (which may well be a fake post) that his students are clapping while they are not, and thus he cannot teach and needs to spread hatred against minority groups? Shouldn't yoga instructors have enough "inner peace" to not mix internet rumors with actual reality? If there were actual people in his class applauding I'm sure there are ways more efficient than Twitter to get them to stop...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
There have been more of these incidents (cheering, applauding) but most kids didn't know how serious it was at the time, bit of a nothing
But are people such delicate flowers that reading about it on Facebook causes them to hallucinate it happening in their class? I do not think that people are so afraid of confrontation that they will not tell them off to their face but go crying on Twitter instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Police was right to ask him not to post these things, at least for a while. Many wounded will still die, after amazement comes angerQuote:
Originally Posted by Snowhobbit
Yep, it is never a good time to call for hate and anger against minority groups. When a sub-group of that minority group commits horrific crimes is an especially bad time. If anyone gets injured because of these tweets I hope the guy gets charged for incitement to *insert whatever happened*.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
"What excuse? Who said poverty is an excuse for murder? Stop making things up." Where did you mentioned poverty? Stop putting words in my mouth.
Poverty, feelings of exclusion/humiliation, lack of future, alienation are reasons for "radicalisation". I went through this as a late teenager/young adult. But I didn't choose to go for a pro-slavery, racist, xenophobe, discriminatory ideology. I went political then I joined the army, where all this anger and streams of violence were used, channelled and finally rested. I am still political, leftist, as I still remember these years and the absolute injustice of the social determination.
But, these criminals never went political. They went petty criminals, most of them (the ones we speak about, not the Bourgeois ones) choosing always the easiest way. Even their final choice was to rely not on the effort of an ascesis, a study of the Holly texts and their interpretation, but a short cut: Killings and suicide to reach a God and the rewards...
Trying to find out why someone does something is not the same as trying to excuse that behaviour. A key factor in preventing these things in the future is to stop the radicalization that happens, and to do that we have to figure out why it happens. For example why it did not happen with you or your family but it happened with these men who have mostly blown themselves up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
You seem to assume that we are not dealling with a fully-fledged ideoligy, and of course social-economic are also a factor but wouldn't be what I would be looking. People have the tendency to think that everybody thinks like they do themselves, follow the same reasonings. You don't have to disregard social-economic factors to acknowledge an ideoligy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhobbit
I'm fully aware that these people are driven by a violent ideology, but the question is why they sign on to that. They are not born murders etc, and it is key that we figure out how to stop the recruitment. Like I posted before, stop Saudi-funded mosques is one thing, but we also have to look at the individuals. I know that in UK there are programs where youth leaders and Imams work together to stop these kids and lead them to better thoughts before it goes too far. Likely a much cheaper and effective way than highly expensive security measures (which might be needed and justified also).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Works for some. But I am ok with things like this happening from time to time. We should learn from the Mossad and take out dangerous people imhoQuote:
Originally Posted by Snowhobbit
Drone strikes in our cities?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
We are training eagles to take out drones, not kidding. But that apart, I think that high-profile should be seen as agents of something that's hostile. Why should assymatrical warfare exist only in hotspots, seems old-fashioned to me. And I already agree with every objection you have against it in advance so don't botherQuote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Why should we turn our countries into war zones if there is no need to do so? Seems silly to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Not warzones, just assasinating key figuresQuote:
Originally Posted by Husar
You're right of course, cause =/= justification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhobbit
Since Charlie Hebdo it's been commonly known that many islamist terrorists have had criminal careers before they became religious thugs. I'd be interested in knowing more about the psychology behind such "conversions". Maybe at some level these people are aware that their violent behaviour is bad. And they're receptive to an ideology that says violence isn't bad at all, at least not when directed against the "other". That they don't need to feel guilty about whatever they did in the past, because the only people who matter are "true muslims".
I think in the case of criminals it is more about seeing redemption and salvation, an easy way out of hell and into heaven, with the love and respect of their peers and idols. They are of course also excellent targets, already having shown willingness to use violence to get what they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
Add to that feeling even more outside of society than most of their neighbours, and the forgiving of past sins and promise of heaven might be very appealing to the right person.
Once read the term atonement by proxy, was not in this context though. What everybody says about anyone probably applies for some. But it's a much easier licence to kill
How would one go about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Make a law that says the government can assassinate citizens if the government thinks they are a threat to society?
And how do we assassinate the key figures we don't even know about?
And if we already know about them, why don't we just arrest them as that would not require any changes whatsoever?
And doesn't that already happen all the time?
Told you I would agree with your objections, you are right on allQuote:
Originally Posted by Husar
If you are really interested in Zhirinovsky you can avail yourself of the opportunities internet provides. He is like a revved up version of Trump. But to completely disregard his looney ideas and statements would be wrong. Putin tolerates him to have him as a contrast to himself as if saying: "See what nutjobs may come to power if I step down?" Plus Zhirinovsky's statements and escapades serve as a kind of probing action - to see how the public would react and whether it is worth to proceed in this direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhobbit
You are deeply mistaken if you believe that Europe can put a halter on terrorism WIHTHIN the EU if it enlists the help of any outsiders, still less of Russia. No one can deal with terrorism in Europe except Europe itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhobbit
No thanks all the same, I read about enough crazies just keeping up with politics which actually impacts my life, don't follow Trump nonsense either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
Oh? And here I thought terror networks were international things which different intelligence agencies can all gather Intel on, that occasionally Russia bombed them a couple of weeks ago, and that with the loss of a passenger jet Russia might be motivated to hate ISIS on a personal level. But you are of course right, terrorism is exclusively a European issue and will forever only be a European issue.