Military coup in Turkey

Apparently there is a military coup going on in Turkey right now, still seems like noone knows what exactly is going on:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...rd-in-ankara1/

Quote:

---

Gunshots were heard in the Turkish capital of Ankara on Friday, a Reuters witness said, as military jets and helicopters were seen flying overhead.

Reuters witnesses in Istanbul, Turkey's biggest city, also spotted helicopters overhead.

Broadcaster NTV reported that both of Istanbul's bridges across the Bosphorus, the strait separating the European and Asian sides of the city, had been closed to traffic.

It was not immediately clear if the events were related.
[...]
Yildirim says "it would be wrong to call it a coup" but that there has been an attempt by "part of the military".

He describes it as an "illegal attempt" to seize power.

Turkey would never allow any "initiative that would interrupt democracy", he said, and promised the perpetrators "will pay the highest price".

---

https://twitter.com/search?q=coup+in...Ctwgr%5Esearch

Not sure what to think of it. Not a fan of Erdogan at all, but a coup seems like a sad way to end his reign, if it even works.

2016, codirected by Quentin Tarantino and George R R Martin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Telegraph link above

Turkish military claims to have overthrown Erdogan and taken control of country
In a statement, the Turkish military says the rule of law must remain the priority.

State TV TRT reportedly off the air.

---

That seems fast...

PM Yıldırım confirms a coup attempt in Turkey, says the attempt will not be successful

Quote:

---

Turkey's Prime Minister Binali Yıldırım said a group within Turkey's military has engaged in what appeared to be an attempted coup.

Yıldırım said on television: "it is correct that there was an attempt."

Yıldırım didn't provide details, but said Turkey would never allow any "initiative that would interrupt democracy."

"Those who are in this illegal act will pay the highest price," he added.

Earlier, military jets were heard flying over the capital, Ankara.

Media reports said ambulances were seen in front of the Turkey's military headquarters.

Justice Minister Bozdağ also confirmed a group tried to stage a coup and said the government is on duty.

Arrest warrants were issued for the soldiers who are involved in the coup attempt.

Entrance to Atatürk International Airport in Istanbul closed, military tanks deployed outside the airport.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greyblades

PM Yıldırım confirms a coup attempt in Turkey, says the attempt will not be successful

---

Yes, that was out earlier, the military claiming to have won is a bit newer than what Yildirim said.
Your link says published 23 hours ago, seems fishy to be honest, I don't think it was even going on yet at that time... :inquisitive:

I guess the big question is whether most of the military or just a small part was behind it and who exactly is lying? The PM or the military that claimed to have taken over? We'll know relatively soon/by tomorrow I guess.

Yeah, I dont know what is up with that timestamp.

A fellow I'm talking with on discord says that it could be the secular millitary getting fed up with the islamic Erdogan, tensions over the handling of Syria, Russia and the whole 200 or so officers being imprisoned in 2013.

LEN was last on at 9pm BST, so I'd like to see his view on this.

We really live in interesting times. So, up until now, both sides are winning?

Military coups have an honorable and longstanding tradition in Turkey. I'm no fan of Erdogan for sure but I don't think this will contribute to stability in the region.

It seems as if Erdogan is seeking asylum in Germany? This week has been nuts.

Both sides claiming victory?
This could get interesting:

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...0ZV2HK?sp=true

Attachment 18697

Erdogan seems to claim, too, that he is still in control, but then again we've seen this before, like the imminent counterattack when the Russians were already in Berlin or the Americans running away in fear according to the Iraqi disinformation minister.
Erdogan does seem to have a sizeable support in the country though, but if people actually stand up to the military with firearms or so, this could turn really ugly. I'd rather have seen Erdogan simply not getting elected anymore.

I mean on the one hand I wish for a modern and secular Turkey, on the other hand the majority of Turks seem to disagree with my wish and want to "democratically" forbid the existence of their more liberal fellow countrymen and -women.... :shrug: :dizzy2:

It's almost outlandish having the advocates of liberalism in a nation being the army of all things

I'm very anti-Erdogan but I hope that whatever is happening concludes quickly. Can't have as important and strategic country as Turkey descend into all out civil war like its neighbors.

Well, one of my theories is gone.
I was thinking an uprising by a minority of the army would be doomed to fail; apparently "...not a little tinpot coup...":

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tu...-idUSKCN0ZV2HK

https://twitter.com/Nayn_Co/status/754086295186661376

Helicopter fired from the skies over ankara.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y60wDzZt8yg

Sky news livestream says it was quickly shot down by jet.

Reap what you sow. Its time for him to pay the price of the MB government he made just like Morsi did. Now go flee just like the thousands of Syrian women and children you displaced. Dirty games bring dirty outcomes.

https://twitter.com/socialbook1/stat...86215775756288

Coup forces have apparantly been peacefully evicted from a provincial government building.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CncGaB_XgAYVfso.jpg

Well, looks like it's failed - unless it turns out the Army's Chief of Staff is actually leading the coup that's it, Erdogan 4 Life now.

My first reaction was "well, it's about time, surprised it took them this long." but it appears this was likely a small Kemalist remnant, not the traditional Turkish Army coup designed to kick out the tin-pot dictators the people occasionally elect.

Before you all go off on me being an anti-democratic hypocrite, what they have in Turkey right now isn't Democracy.

Seems to be still going on with reports that Erdogan will soon land in Istanbul, it's like noone can decide yet who won... :dizzy2:

What I find most disturbing, almost insulting, is how a lot of Erdogan supporters, and even Obama, seem to insinuate that Erdogan is the beacon of Turkish democracy. We can talk all day about how a military coup is not democratic, and I'd even agree, but placating Erdogan as some kind of poster child for democracy is just idiotic as well.... :wall:

The guy closed all the free press he could find, tried to shut down social networks when they were used against him, suppressed corruption allegations against him and his family, built himself a big palace and allegedly even dealt with ISIS. Oh and he also tried to shut down criticism in Germany. If that is what counts as a democratic leader nowadays, then I can just say :end:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Seems to be still going on with reports that Erdogan will soon land in Istanbul, it's like noone can decide yet who won... :dizzy2:

What I find most disturbing, almost insulting, is how a lot of Erdogan supporters, and even Obama, seem to insinuate that Erdogan is the beacon of Turkish democracy. We can talk all day about how a military coup is not democratic, and I'd even agree, but placating Erdogan as some kind of poster child for democracy is just idiotic as well.... :wall:

The guy closed all the free press he could find, tried to shut down social networks when they were used against him, suppressed corruption allegations against him and his family, built himself a big palace and allegedly even dealt with ISIS. Oh and he also tried to shut down criticism in Germany. If that is what counts as a democratic leader nowadays, then I can just say :end:

---

Turkey lacks the liberal bit of liberal democracy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Turkey lacks the liberal bit of liberal democracy.

---

So does America - that doesn't mean it can't be a Democracy full stop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

So does America - that doesn't mean it can't be a Democracy full stop.

---

It's more like a tyranny of the majority then, the point of a majority is that the minority is also at least heard and that there is a free press as part of the checks and balances and so on. Yes, the greek democracy was different, but we talk about a modern understanding of democracy. The US is not nearly as bad, they have a free press and an opposition that is allowed to talk and appear on TV etc.

I also entered a Turkish tweet into Google translate and it supports the last smiley of my last post...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Google Translate

President Erdogan in Istanbul . Armageddon greets a crowd of President Erdogan Airport.

---

:stare::sweatdrop:

The thing is, "Liberal Democracy" is apolitically charged term designed to imply that "Liberalism" is inherently Democratic, by which the people coining the term often mean high taxes, gender equality, secularism (in a strict sense), support for Gay marriage (maybe) etc. etc. Essentially the position of the "chattering classes" in Europe and the US.

That sort of outlook is what turns more conservative populations off democracy - they think it's a package deal that requires them to accept all these Left-Wing ideals at the same time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

So does America - that doesn't mean it can't be a Democracy full stop.

---

The US is possibly the most liberal state in the world. Americans are fanatical about the rights and freedoms and checks and balances guaranteed by their constitution and republic.

I'm still reading conflicting reports about the coup.
Support within the military is hard to gauge; it seems questionable that the coup elements have the support (military and civil) to make the revolt stick.
P.S.
Liberalism and Democracy are a tension not a unity.

Still not finally resolved, but it appears that Erdogan is likely to retain power...or enhance it?

Looks like it failed. Which would be a shame. Turkey is no ally, only the military is

Over 1500 soldiers arrested
29 colonels
5 generals

Turkish police must be the best in the world, can I say false flag

...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Looks like it failed. Which would be a shame. Turkey is no ally, only the military is

Over 1500 soldiers arrested
29 colonels
5 generals

Turkish police must be the best in the world, can I say false flag

---

In the end the military was undone by a number of factors I think:

Reduced Kemalist faction, lack of general support among the populace and a general unwillingness of the military to shoot civilians.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

In the end the military was undone by a number of factors I think:

Reduced Kemalist faction, lack of general support among the populace and a general unwillingness of the military to shoot civilians.

---

One of the reasons Napoleon came to prominence was supposedly his willingness to use artillery against civilians. Civilian resistance doesn't amount to much when the other side are willing to wheel out and use large calibre firepower.

Reading about more and more people saying that it may have been orchestrated by Erdogan to emerge even stronger.
Tonight I still dismissed that as a silly conspiracy but somehow today I also wouldn't put it beyond him. I guess one may get clues by looking at how he proceeds now. The coup seems to have failed by now and some say it was badly planned. Erdogan called it a "present from god" that allows him to "clean the military" faster. Even if it wasn't staged, the fact that he won it may do even more terrible things to his ego.....

I rarely support coups against elected officials but in Turkey's case, army is the protector of Ataturk's legacy.

This means Turkey will devolve into a full presidential dictatorship with strong islamist leanings.

There we go, the great Turkish reshuffling has already begun:

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-...ved-from-duty/

Quote:

---

Broadcaster NTV, citing a decision by the High Council of Judges and Prosecutors, said 2,745 judges had been removed in total.

The Anadolu news agency reported that five members of Turkey's high judiciary board Hysk had also been removed.

---

Twitter is already big on the rumor side, have to say it does not seem so outlandish anymore. As I said, we'll see what he does when he wins...
https://twitter.com/search?q=reichstag%20fire&src=typd

Pity. A military coup certainly isn't the best choice to change a government, but in Turkey's case it has always been a sure way to keep the country on (or lead back to) the kemalist path - which is something that should be in the center of Europe's interest when it comes to Turkey.
Reading the events in reverse, the fact that there has been a coup means Turkey is on the verge of leaving said path (or has already done so).

As far as the "staged coup" theories go - I wouldn't put it beyond him either.
The internet has already produced this:

Attachment 18698

The hell did the judges do to deserve dismissal?

So much for that. I hope this prick didn't have 265 people die just to level up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greyblades

The hell did the judges do to deserve dismissal?

---

Probably refused bribes offered to give the coup-members death sentences.

Rumour, American base surrounded by Turksh troops, power cut off. Could this have anything to do, if true, with the USA refusing to hand over Gülen to the neo-sultan? I thing the supermarketrolltoddler Erdogan would actually do that. That grey-wolf is a rabid dog full of resentment. What is happening in Turkey, it used to be the most beautifull girl in the class in the islamic hemisphere. Sometimes a Godwin is apropiate, won't make it but think it. Suffice to say that I think Erdogan is a really dangerous person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Rumour, American base surrounded by Turksh troops, power cut off. Could this have anything to do, if true, with the USA refusing to hand over Gülen to the neo-sultan? I thing the supermarketrolltoddler Erdogan would actually do that. That grey-wolf is a rabid dog full of resentment. What is happening in Turkey, it used to be the most beautifull girl in the class in the islamic hemisphere. Sometimes a Godwin is apropiate, won't make it but think it. Suffice to say that I think Erdogan is a really dangerous person.

---

Gulen is in the US - not Turkey.

You're probably referring to the Incirlik air base, were Coalition Jets fly from - the base commander has been arrested.

This is clearly a purge - the number of top military commanders and judges arrested demonstrate that. The Commanders of the Second and Third Armies have been arrested, which is interesting given that the First Army was apparently the source of most of the rebels - it suggests the President is conducting a complete "deadheading" of the military.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Gulen is in the US - not Turkey.

You're probably referring to the Incirlik air base, were Coalition Jets fly from - the base commander has been arrested.

This is clearly a purge - the number of top military commanders and judges arrested demonstrate that. The Commanders of the Second and Third Armies have been arrested, which is interesting given that the First Army was apparently the source of most of the rebels - it suggests the President is conducting a complete "deadheading" of the military.

---

I know that Gulen is in the US, Erdogan has a stick sharpened at two sides for him. It's time to really get worried bout Turkey imho. The Brussels is talking with tbe neo-sultan because about half of aan european-army would be turkish and free visum's on tops, what could go wrong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

I know that Gulen is in the US, Erdogan has a stick sharpened at two sides for him. It's time to really get worried bout Turkey imho. The Brussels is talking with tbe neo-sultan because about half of aan european-army would be turkish and free visum's on tops, what could go wrong

---

What does a European army have to deal with that isn't already covered by NATO? A Turkey that has decided not to cooperate with NATO offers zero threat to NATO, especially if Russia decide to settle scores at the same time. The only problems would be diplomatic, but in extremis Europe can always shut down diplomatic channels completely, and Turkey has far more to lose from such a situation. Turkey only has leverage if Europe decide to continue to play nice. Once Europe decide that Turkey can go eff itself, then Turkey can go eff itself and Europe wouldn't even blink an eye.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

What does a European army have to deal with that isn't already covered by NATO? A Turkey that has decided not to cooperate with NATO offers zero threat to NATO, especially if Russia decide to settle scores at the same time. The only problems would be diplomatic, but in extremis Europe can always shut down diplomatic channels completely, and Turkey has far more to lose from such a situation. Turkey only has leverage if Europe decide to continue to play nice. Once Europe decide that Turkey can go eff itself, then Turkey can go eff itself and Europe wouldn't even blink an eye.

---

True, but then the refugee deal would be off too and that would mean that Greece and the Balkans would be even more effed up and the balkan route reopened which is something the EU wants to avoid, because that in turn would strenghten again the autocrats and populists in Hungary, Austria and the rest of Europe.
By supporting Erdogan they are buying some sorely needed stability in the core territories and sensitive regions. The price is high though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I of the Storm

True, but then the refugee deal would be off too and that would mean that Greece and the Balkans would be even more effed up and the balkan route reopened which is something the EU wants to avoid, because that in turn would strenghten again the autocrats and populists in Hungary, Austria and the rest of Europe.
By supporting Erdogan they are buying some sorely needed stability in the core territories and sensitive regions. The price is high though.

---

Up go the fences. There's no need for a refugee deal if no one is allowed to travel from Turkey to the EU. The Turks within the EU won't be happy to be cut off from their families, but the exit door is always open if they feel that strongly about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Up go the fences. There's no need for a refugee deal if no one is allowed to travel from Turkey to the EU. The Turks within the EU won't be happy to be cut off from their families, but the exit door is always open if they feel that strongly about it.

---

That would be the pragmatic solution. But fencing the border in Greece and Bulgaria would mean the EU has to pay for Greece's and Bulgaria's cost (right now they only have to pay a fraction because Erdogan is supposed to do the dirty work) and it would bring the bleeding-heart-people crying about "no fences, you fascists!" back. Both not desireable. But eventually the EU will come to see that prolonged cooperation with Erdogan is becoming more and more impractical.

Edit: besides, fencing the borders would only strenghten the position of the extreme right. We have a problem with them as it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

What does a European army have to deal with that isn't already covered by NATO? A Turkey that has decided not to cooperate with NATO offers zero threat to NATO, especially if Russia decide to settle scores at the same time. The only problems would be diplomatic, but in extremis Europe can always shut down diplomatic channels completely, and Turkey has far more to lose from such a situation. Turkey only has leverage if Europe decide to continue to play nice. Once Europe decide that Turkey can go eff itself, then Turkey can go eff itself and Europe wouldn't even blink an eye.

---

Could you please say EU isnstead of Europe, Europe is just a continent. I see trouble, the EU wants an army and suddenly they are talking with Turkey again. Turkish army in our streets?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I of the Storm

That would be the pragmatic solution. But fencing the border in Greece and Bulgaria would mean the EU has to pay for Greece's and Bulgaria's cost (right now they only have to pay a fraction because Erdogan is supposed to do the dirty work) and it would bring the bleeding-heart-people crying about "no fences, you fascists!" back. Both not desireable. But eventually the EU will come to see that prolonged cooperation with Erdogan is becoming more and more impractical.

Edit: besides, fencing the borders would only strenghten the position of the extreme right. We have a problem with them as it is.

---

It's only a problem if you feel ethically unable to cut off the problem at source because of some belief in universal rights. Germany currently has an army that is sizeable but lacking on the heavy side, as do most other non-Anglo-French armed forces. They'd be adequate for border patrols, based on the doctrine that there is a this side and a that side, and anything on that side isn't allowed to come over to this side. They have to be fed and watered anyway, and they're no good for anything else, nor do they want to be deployed anywhere hot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Could you please say EU isnstead of Europe, Europe is just a continent. I see trouble, the EU wants an army and suddenly they are talking with Turkey again. Turkish army in our streets?

---

Britain has some say in NATO, particularly the European component of NATO. Britain has no say in the EU. Not after we followed your wonderful advice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

It's only a problem if you feel ethically unable to cut off the problem at source because of some belief in universal rights. Germany currently has an army that is sizeable but lacking on the heavy side, as do most other non-Anglo-French armed forces. They'd be adequate for border patrols, based on the doctrine that there is a this side and a that side, and anything on that side isn't allowed to come over to this side. They have to be fed and watered anyway, and they're no good for anything else, nor do they want to be deployed anywhere hot.

---

Let's not talk about the Bundeswehr, it's a rather embarassing subject.

Besides, a lot of legal obstacles to employ them domestically. Not good for much atm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I of the Storm

Let's not talk about the Bundeswehr, it's a rather embarassing subject.

Besides, a lot of legal obstacles to employ them domestically. Not good for much atm.

---

Can't you re-employ ostie veterans? Surely they have plenty of experience in keeping a border closed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Britain has some say in NATO, particularly the European component of NATO. Britain has no say in the EU. Not after we followed your wonderful advice.

---

Yeah and the EU just lost their most competent army, of couurse it's all a coincence that they are courting Turkey, the EU has only one priority and that is the EU.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Can't you re-employ ostie veterans? Surely they have plenty of experience in keeping a border closed.

---

Haha, they certainly do. But they are pretty old by now. In their 50's at least. The "good and efficient" ones are convicted and barred from service anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Up go the fences. There's no need for a refugee deal if no one is allowed to travel from Turkey to the EU. The Turks within the EU won't be happy to be cut off from their families, but the exit door is always open if they feel that strongly about it.

---

So what you're saying is that we should build a wall on Europe's Southern border to keep the economically and socially undesirable out.

Errr...

You've been hammering Greyblades in the UK Referendum thread for saying basically that.

Anyway, I think what Frag is saying is that Turkey would provide about half of a theoretical EU army (because their military is actually funded) and this would mean the EU could have a big army without good French or German boys having to sign up and do work. Of course, with the UK leaving an EU army is more likely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I of the Storm

Edit: besides, fencing the borders would only strenghten the position of the extreme right. We have a problem with them as it is.

---

Actually I think it would weaken the far right as it would steal thier primary selling point out from under them, in a similar way to how the Conservatives stole UKIP's thunder by running on a referendum promise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greyblades

Actually I think it would weaken the far right as it would steal thier primary selling point out from under them, in a similar way to how the Conservatives stole UKIP's thunder by running on a referendum promise.

---

Hm. Depends how you spin it. Might as well be giving them a boost, aka "didn't we tell you?". But the other way 'round is equally possible. Not sure on this point.

It's an observation that has been made to me by political commentators a few times: fringe movments only really gain ground when the centerist movements dont address a major problem.

Most people dont want to go to the fascists or the communists, but they will turn to them the longer the more safe/sane centerist parties show themselves incapable of solving a problem that negatively impacts thier lives.

The flood gates really open up when the centerist parties start being seen as not wanting to solve the problem.

Why would an EU army require Turkey?
Funding issues are far easier to deal with than having a despot in charge of (half) your army.
The German army needs more funding either way if it is meant to be capable of anything in the future.
The other thing they need to sort out is procurement, that the NH-90 lacks the necessary ground clearance to land on anything the doesn't resemble a big, flat concrete area for example is hardly a funding issue, it's pure incompetence... I'd also think that the beginning of an EU army would be somewhere between Germany, France and the Netherlands because the Bundeswehr currently cooperates with both of these already, one would think that the partial integration would just be expanded and then other nations are slowly added, unless we are talking about a completely seperate army in addition to the national ones. But who would fund the latter if noone is even willing to fund the national ones.

Would Turkey even cease control of its soldiers and equipment to an EU entity? Thery're very nationalistic after all...
Now France, Netherlands and Germany would be far more likely to attempt that, maybe Belgium and a few others like Italy, Austria and Spain, too. Even with Poland I'm not so sure, though maybe if it meant that suddenly a much stronger army defends their country against Russia.

ohohoh the left was furious when mr Wilders called the neo-sultan a total freak, but his call to rat on 'Gülen supporters' didn't go unheard, not a good time to be a secular Turk in the Netherlands right now. Or everywhere really. The neo-sultan even threatens the US, not delivering Gülen is supposedly an act of war. The shitlist was supposedly prepared before the failed coup(?). Erdogan is a dangerous man, godwins are apropiate for change I think. Glad our Lefteyenine is heading to Belgium but he has to be careful there as well, especially if the childless mutti gets her way and Turkey gets unlimited visums to travel into Europe. Secular Turks and Kurds are rightfully scared.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

I'd also think that the beginning of an EU army would be somewhere between Germany, France and the Netherlands

---

Why would you need one? You have NATO to cater to such needs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Why would you need one? You have NATO to cater to such needs.

---

Why would the EU need one, better question. The EU is ultra-undemocratic they accept no dissent. They aren't going to station Dutch troops in the Netherlands, no French in France, no Germans in Germany

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Why would you need one? You have NATO to cater to such needs.

---

First of all, I think it was Fragony who brought it up, I don't have access to his secret insider sources that are always right, so I can't know that.
Secondly, I would think because NATO is not always taken so seriously and there are fears that some countries may ignore a call to arms by NATO. Whether the NATO command structure works as well as that of a completely integrated single army would then be another question, but I can't answer it because I'm not sure how NATO works exactly. For example, are all NATO soldiers required to speak a common language or could there be cases where one doesn't understand what the superior wants from him over the radio? And despite all the fuss about NATO, most of its members don't even stick to the rules, especially the one where they should spend 2% of their GDP on defense...

A lot of people say that NATO is just a bunch of countries waiting for the US to come and rescue them, the EU army would seem like an effort of Europe to take its defense into its own hands. With pooled resources and standardized equipment it might even be more efficient than each country having its own army with lots of redundancy between them and smaller order numbers from the manufacturers because they all want different equipment (Eurofighter etc. being the obvious efforts to change that, which are going on already). Economies of scale might be a factor.

There are no sources, it's how I would do it if I was a machivallian eurocrat. People are reluctant to act against their own

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

There are no sources, it's how I would do it if I was a machivallian eurocrat.

---

Sentence that refers to what I said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

People are reluctant to act against their own

---

Random sentence that is completely unrelated at first sight.

Attempting request for further information in Fragoninglish: Qué?

Are you suggesting they want an EU army to start a military dictatorship? Do you not know that we already have foreign overlords?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016...n_9297112.html

Quote:

---

David Icke Backs ‘Brexit’

---

http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/...-an-inside-job

Quote:

---

David Icke insists Royal Family are ‘shape-shifting lizards’

---

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...-investigation

Quote:

---

Europe to crack down on wildlife smugglers to protect rare lizard species

---

Oooooh, I get it now...

I think eurocrats will do anything to keep the EU alive yes, including turning on European citizens the hard way. Most convenient in case of riots would be soldiers that have no emotional ties with the country they are stationed. I think that's also the reason why they want to spread possible jihadi's all over Europe, more EU needed, needs more power.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Secondly, I would think because NATO is not always taken so seriously and there are fears that some countries may ignore a call to arms by NATO.

---

So the EU is taken seriously? :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

For example, are all NATO soldiers required to speak a common language or could there be cases where one doesn't understand what the superior wants from him over the radio?

---

Superiors must speak more languages than the file and rank, so getting an order from a NATO commander in English a colonel from Poland will address his soldiers in Polish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

A lot of people say that NATO is just a bunch of countries waiting for the US to come and rescue them, the EU army would seem like an effort of Europe to take its defense into its own hands.

---

... which will put double stress on the national budgets since they will have to allot money both for NATO and the EU army.

Kinda odd, they could have shot down Erdogan's plane but didn't. It was right in their sights
@hussie, can't compliment you enough on your English language skills, I am really poor at six

And they missed a dozen ships:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tu...coup-nj8vj8xjz

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/18/eu...oup/index.html

Quote:

---

"The people now have the idea, after so many terrorist incidents, that these terrorists should be killed, that's where they are, they don't see any other outcome to it," he said.
"Why should I keep them and feed them in prisons, for years to come? That's what the people say," he said. "They want a swift end to it, because people lost relatives, lost neighbors, lost children ... they're suffering, so the people are very sensitive and we have to act very sensibly and sensitively."
The comments come in the wake of the President's vow over the weekend that those responsible "will pay a heavy price for this act of treason."
A total of 8,777 officers from the Turkish Ministry of Interior have so far been removed from office, according to the state-run Anadolu news agency.

---

Given that he calls journalists who are critical of him terrorists as well, there's nothing that could go wrong...

The "good thing" about it is this: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tu...-idUSKCN0ZY0YI

Quote:

---

Turkey cannot join the European Union if it reinstates the death penalty, German Chancellor Angela Merkel told Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan in a telephone call on Monday, a German spokeswoman said.

Turkey abolished capital punishment in 2004, allowing it to open EU accession talks the following year, but the negotiations have made scant progress since then.

---

he doesn't seem to care much at this point however, wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't really want to join anymore and would rather become a strong Sultan of a strong Turkey. :dizzy2:

It's all kinda bewildering, the EU keeps talking with him despite human-rights violations. But he isn't stupid he will detract his fart on death penalty seemingly giving eurocrats what they can present as having any cojones, and talks about visum free travel will continue, the nightmare of every modern-minded Euro-Turk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

It's all kinda bewildering, the EU keeps talking with him despite human-rights violations. But he isn't stupid he will detract his fart on death penalty seemingly giving eurocrats what they can present as having any cojones, and talks about visum free travel will continue, the nightmare of every modern-minded Euro-Turk.

---

I assume that they keep talking with him hoping that he will come around and try to join, with all the human rights changes that entails. And of course because that was part of the refugeee deal...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

I assume that they keep talking with him hoping that he will come around and try to join, with all the human rights changes that entails. And of course because that was part of the refugeee deal...

---

They aren't exactly usefull there, nor needed, the Balkan route is as good as closed. I don't know why we are still on speaking terms

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Kinda odd, they could have shot down Erdogan's plane but didn't. It was right in their sights

---

The pilot of Erdogan's plane reportedly told them it was an ordinary passenger plane.

https://www.rt.com/news/351995-wikil...key-documents/

Quote:

---

WikiLeaks reported suffering a “sustained attack” after it announced the upcoming release of hundreds of thousands of documents relating to Turkish leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s Justice and Development Party (AKP) in the wake of a failed military coup.

Despite the attack, the famous whistleblowing site promised to “prevail & publish” the first batch of documents on Tuesday. Earlier WikiLeaks announced that the release of documents, which could expose the Turkish “political power structure”, will contain 300,000 emails and 500,000 documents.

---

So, they've come for the academics and (what's left of) the press.

Remind me, who's next on the road to dictatorship?

Reducing electoral power of the masses. This can be by having the legislature vote itself out of existence (adios Weimar Germany), but changing the rules of government so that any representative body is functionally powerless (U.S. state legislatures increasingly), or watering down the power of the vote so that only certain votes really count ("Tribal" and class voting in the Roman Repuiblic).

Attachment 18731

Looks like the "cleanup" continues.

Interesting that they would purge so many of the education ministry. I suppose hes trying to purge the Gulen influences or something? Certainly a dark time for secularism in Turkey.

And to think I saw some Turkish expats turning up their collective nose at the idea of a coup. I suppose it's easy to rest on your ideals thousands of miles away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Attachment 18731

Looks like the "cleanup" continues.

---

I was severely warned once not to refer to social networks posts. Has anything changed since then?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Interesting that they would purge so many of the education ministry. I suppose hes trying to purge the Gulen influences or something? Certainly a dark time for secularism in Turkey.

---

Erdogan is determined to destroy Gülen, even blackmails America by surrounding an American base in Turkey. It's going to be interesting to see what the leaks prior to the coup got to show. Must be something there because Turkey completily shut wikileaks down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

So, they've come for the academics and (what's left of) the press.

Remind me, who's next on the road to dictatorship?

---

Lets see an officer purge, check
High level aids (probably because they saw how fast he high tailed it out of the country), check
Academics, check
Reporters, check

Leaves the clergy and oppositions parties to remove
And a special presidential/black/red/revolutionary guard to put in place