Let's hear it, how was the Universe created, and be prepared to be questioned.
I believe that God created it, but some Atheists and Scientists will say Big Bang and stuff, so bring it on. :smart:
-ZainDustin
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Let's hear it, how was the Universe created, and be prepared to be questioned.
I believe that God created it, but some Atheists and Scientists will say Big Bang and stuff, so bring it on. :smart:
-ZainDustin
Big bang and God are not incompatible -- plenty of Christians believe in it. The correct word for people who prefer the literal scripture to scienfic evidence is "fundamentalist," not "Christian."
I doubt we'll actually know how the universe was made anytime soon, if ever.
Christian's jobs are to lead people to God, and believe everything in the bible. The bible says that the Universe was created by God's hand, so the definition of Christian is one who believes Everything in the bible. If you don't, you need help. (You meaning anyone). Christians who believe in Big Bang are definently not on the same page as God.
-ZainDustin
Zain, if you're going to get all fundamentalist, please read all of Moses' laws, which are laid out very clearly as the direct commandments of God. Have you hugged your mother while she was menstruating? Then you are unclean, and if you didn't purify yourself in a tent for two weeks, you're violating God's will. Have you ever worked on the Sabbath? Collected firewood, for example? Then you should be stoned to death.
Look my friend, the smartest thing any priest ever told me about the Bible was, "It's not a book -- it's a library." And you can't take a library literally. Not if you hope to stay sane.
Read your Bible, and read it carefully. Then come back and tell us all about how you intend to live according to every literal precept within it. I can't wait.
The universe wasn't created, it's always been here ~:handball:
I think Zain and Nav need to get together ...
When Jesus died on the cross for everyone's sin's, things changed in a sense of the laws. But when it talks about how things are created, that kind of thing can't changed. That's why there is an Old Testament and a New Testament. I'm not talking about the laws, because of how things changed after the crusifiction, and the direct line of communication between God and Humans was created. People used to have to go to the Synagogue and pray, you know?
-ZainDustin
Things don't just appear, Sasaki.
-ZainDustin
Who's Nav?
Exactly, that's why I say it's always been here :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
Well, if you're ready to throw out Moses' laws, than you aren't really taking the Bible as literally as you claim, now are you? You've already gone deep into interpretaion land. Why are you allowed to ignore the word of God as given to Moses, but you're going to read Genesis as direct reportage?
You're already interpreting. You have to. The Bible cannot be read as literal truth, not if you want to have any sort of cogent life. Like I said, it's a library, and Christians should do everything in their power to learn from it. Do you want to see what the world looks like when everybody takes their scripture as the literal, unchaning Word of God? Do you want to know what it's like when science and art and squashed flat by the people who declare that they have divined God's will?
Go spend some time in Saudi Arabia. Then tell us how much you like living in a fundamentalist paradise. Say hi to the Wahhabis while you're there.
I'd rather not got to Saudi Arabia. I'm not throwing out the Ten Commandments, only saying the old laws have changed due to the crusifixion.
Nav is our resident fundamentalist. But hey, he's been here a long time, and if you want to apply for the job, I'm sure you'll get a fair chance.
Another thought -- since God is all-powerful and omniscient, since God is awesome beyond our comprehension, and since God doesn't have to justify a blessed thing to us (see Job for more details), why would you believe that a trans-human divinity would drop a literal text on us? Why would God feel the need to give us something so basic, so rudimentary, that all we need to do is connect the dots and do as little contemplation as possible? Does that sound like an omniscient being to you?
I never said it was literal. The bible is a big puzzle worth decoding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
He put it here to see who would take it literally. And then he sends all those people to hell :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
The atheists end up in heaven :2thumbsup:
:inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
it's a strange combination to not believe in God, but believe in Heaven. Seems kind of Oxy Moron, doesn't it?
-ZainDustin
Very funny, Sasaki. Reminds me of the South Park episode where all the dead people are insisting that they led righteous lives, full of love and compassion, but the guy at the gate says," Sorry, the correct answer was ... Mormon."
Zain, you're already interpreting the Moses' law away, which means you've just gotten rid of the only part of the Bible which condemns homosexuals. Now you're admitting that the Bible must be contemplated and decoded. It's a very small step from where you're standing to accepting that science has a legitimate role to play, that maybe, just maybe, the Lord's creation is worth the same level of scrutiny and study that the Bible deserves.
So let's not go calling people who believe in the Big Bang and/or Evolution a bunch of non-Christians, okay? It makes you sound like a fundamentalist.
I'm just saying that, why would the bible say, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth" if it wasn't true?
-ZainDustin
I think most people will agree that the Bible is metaphor. Since it's just a collection of stories to help guide you, then we should only realy judge the values that it preaches, and not it's historical value.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
Frankly, when I read the OT part of the Bible, it feels like some non-scifi version of a dystopian world ruled by callous alien overlords, who rule with an iron fist and kill all who disobey even the most arbitrary rule.
An example? That little SOB kid who thought he could gather firewood on a sunday without getting some divine justice...
:oops:
As I said earlier, the big bang does not exclude God. Many astrophysicists are also religious. And just because an early Jewish priest wrote that "God created the heavens and earth" does not mean that particular Jewish priest had the whole story. And how would it sound to everybody else if God did reveal to that guy exactly what happened? Would he jump up and run around the Temple, babbling about singularities, event horizons and the way that plasma converts to matter? His buddies would have said, "Zachariah, you've been sniffing too much incense," and taken him outside to sober up.
I strongly recommend you read up on how the Bible was composed. We know a lot more than we ever hoped to know, thanks to the discoveries of ancient texts in Israel and Egypt. Bible study has come a long, long way in the last 20 years. It won't shake your faith, unless you let it. And a book is much more meaningful when you know something about how it was written.
All I know about how it was written was that God used these people as vessels to write the bible.
Yes, of course, but how did God use those vessels? And was he using them all in the same way? And since we have been given free will by the Lord, to what degree have we managed to mess these texts up?
It wouldn't kill you to read up on the current state of scriptural study. There's some fascinating stuff out there.
You really should leave alone the whole last comments telling me what I should do, it's getting annoying.
Didn't mean to offend you, Zain, and I'm sorry that I have. Please accept my apologies. :shame:
Would you care to respond to the points I made?
Exempli gratia:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
I wouldn't know how God used the Vessels, but I'm sure the way religious fanatics are, the bible's text shouldn't have been messed with.
You didn't offend me, it was just annoying. I hope we are nicely debating, instead of angrily debating.
By Backroom standards, this is a terribly nice debate. We should serve tea and crumpets, it's so nice. We're probably sitting on wicker furniture, watching people play croquet in summer whites while servants bring us mint juleps. That's the kind of nice I'm talking about.
The overriding point I'm trying to make, Zain, is that fundamentalism is a slippery slope. It's very comforting to say, "I have God's will right here and nobody can tell me otherwise," but that way madness lies. And I really doubt that it's pleasing to God.
You sound sarcastic about the kind of debate we're having.
I doubt debate makes God happy because my father once told me that debate is one of the things that Satan wants more then ever, because it can create a shaky belief. I just like to debate because it feels like I'm testing myself, and makes my knowledge greater.
-ZainDustin
I was trying to be silly, not sarcastic. Sorry, tone gets lost in forums. I was attempting to make a funny.
Debate is what Satan wants us to do? Well, I guess that's one way of looking at it. Let's do a little side-by-side comparison:
Debate is fundamental to:
- Democracy (let's form a governmental system where everybody can voice their opinion, and then we all vote on it)
- Moderation (hard to be an extremist when you're digesting other peoples' views)
- Learning (disputation is a cornerstone of all knowledge)
A lack of debate is fundamental to:
- Dictatorships (listen and obey)
- Extremism (everybody agrees with me or is silent! Yay!)
- Rigid-mindedness (there's this one way of looking at things, and I don't want to hear different)
Which of these sets of characteristics do you suppose Satan would prefer?
Oh good, another one of these threads. We just need our friendly fanatical liberals and we will be good.
I'm a Christian, I believe God did create the universe, but I also believe in science. I believe he did through the big bang theory. As it was stated earlier in the dicussion, you can't take the Bible litterally. Well you can, but think about it...
Well. I pretty much gave all my views just a moment ago in the "What is Your religion: Part II " thread.
This is a fun topic. I want to play too. :2thumbsup:
The way you talk about it, he would want less debating, but there are other ways to think about it. I've got to go, so I'll talk to you later.
-ZainDustin
He was two-timing us, DA, talking to you in one thread and me in another. I feel used.
How are you used? I was just debating two different people at two different places.
-ZainDustin
Humor, Zain. Humor.
Humor, Zain. Humor.
Not on the Sabbath Lemur:no:
ZainDustin, Lemur is a respected and respectful member of the backroom. We may not agree with each other, and I happen to think he is liberal slime :laugh4: (that's a joke mods), but ultimately, Lemur is good people back here.
ZainDustin, unfortunately distance communication technology like forums, email, and MSN Messenger all lack the subtle interpersonal cues we rely on in day to day conversation. Sometimes it is hard to tell if someone is being a jerk or making a joke- we lack the smile, the roll of the eyes, a half-cocked eyebrow. If you always assume the best, you will never find yourself insulting or being insulted.
This is a great topic, though, and we are glad to have you back here. :2thumbsup:
Warm Regards Buddy.
And as for you, Lemur... you liberal scum you, I agree with all your points on biblical interpretation. I also concur that debate is healthy for all involved. Debate is no threat to one's faith. It only reinforces beliefs by explaining cracks. A fear of debate should make one suspicious of the snake oil being sold.
m-theory holds the key.
:flips open the Moderator's Guide to Humor:Quote:
...We may not agree with each other, and I happen to think he is liberal slime :laugh4: (that's a joke mods),...
Hmmm.
Non-specific insult, smiley (nice spoonerism: smile/slime), disclaimer...
OK!:laugh4:
The question that's been raised is "Does the Bible say exactly how God made the Earth?" Did he use a giant EZ-Bake oven? Do they sell Shake and Bake Humanity on some higher plane? :dizzy2:
Does the Bible say exactly how long those days were? (Thank you Clarence Darrow) What is time to God?
Man: God, how long is a million years to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob
God: A minute.
Man: God, how much is a million dollars to you?
God: A penny.
Man: God, can I have a penny?
God: In a minute.
:2thumbsup:
Nobody knows how it "was created" or "came about".Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
I find creation myths fascinating. A lot of the ancient religions tell of a great flood for example. This indicates to me a cataclysmic event that unfolded back in our pre-historical past. (Black Sea anyone?)
As for the universe, it is my opinion that to all intents and purposes it's always been there. In the human time scale, that is.
The Bible was early bronze age mans attempt to explain the world around him. As other 'good' books of that era are. Having no knowledge of physics, chemistry or biology, they had to try and find reasons for natural events. So they decided that a supreme being must be the answer.
As for taking the Bible literally, possibly, as long as we go back to living in tents and herding goats, then it might work. :laugh4:
BTW Kukri congrats on the promotion. :2thumbsup:
We could say that God created the universe with a Big Bang. Then we all can agree on the Big Bang, unless someone prooves the Big Bang to be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
An image says a thousand words ...
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers...osion%2003.jpg
I don't really bother with what came before.
That's more or less how I think about it :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
:balloon2:
But what about the translators and the editors ? Where they divinely inspired too ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
Correct me if I'm wrong ,but wasn't the big bang just a theory?
It's not yet been proven, true?
Big bang: first there was nothing, and then that blew up as well.:inquisitive:
:coffeenews:Quote:
The Big Bang Theory is the dominant scientific theory about the origin of the universe. According to the big bang, the universe was created sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago from a cosmic explosion that hurled matter and in all directions.
In 1927, the Belgian priest Georges Lemaître was the first to propose that the universe began with the explosion of a primeval atom. His proposal came after observing the red shift in distant nebulas by astronomers to a model of the universe based on relativity. Years later, Edwin Hubble found experimental evidence to help justify Lemaître's theory. He found that distant galaxies in every direction are going away from us with speeds proportional to their distance.
The big bang was initially suggested because it explains why distant galaxies are traveling away from us at great speeds. The theory also predicts the existence of cosmic background radiation (the glow left over from the explosion itself). The Big Bang Theory received its strongest confirmation when this radiation was discovered in 1964 by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson, who later won the Nobel Prize for this discovery.
Although the Big Bang Theory is widely accepted, it probably will never be proved; consequentially, leaving a number of tough, unanswered questions.
So is aerodynamic lift, are you sure you want to chance getting on a plane?Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong ,but wasn't the big bang just a theory?
It's not yet been proven, true?
I believe that in the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea. ~:wacko:
Heh, honestly I believe that the origin of the universe is one of the many mysteries of God. ~:)
Edit:This is actually pretty close to what I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
The Big Bang was created as a christian explanation to how the universe was created, and it was initially opposed by many who saw it as an extension of religiousity in science. In fact, the Catholic church has officially accepted it as compatible with The Bible.
So you believe in women covering their heads and slavery being fine and stuff?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
Anyway if God fails to understand his own universe, the name isn't God, it's manipulative controller and he isn't an all-powerful being, he's a human who wants power.
Simply what the universe looks like suggests the big bang. You can 'see' this (or at least an ancient universe billions of years old) by certain frequencies of electro-magnetic radiation. So claiming this isn't so is no different from claiming what you see in front of you with your eyes is not what it is. Hey look it's a banana! No, wait, it's a house, because this book here says so.
I believe the big bang created the universe as we know it today. Its a simple and understandable theory, big explosion spreads matters around, matter gathers together forms supermassive black holes, supermassive black holes create stars in surounding matter. Stars gravity helps to produce planets planet, walla earth. What I cant explain nor have I heard an explaination of is how the matter that was condensed to such a point got there in the first place. Obviously matter doesnt appear out of nowhere now, so it had to come from someplace, which is why there is room for a diety. We still know very little about our universe ad have much to learn. I would be curious as to whether or not a big bang hasnt happened many times in the past recreating the universe. Whether or not there are more universes out there, much like galaxies. Until the day we know everything about the universe I think something had to help out the big bang a little bit to get started.
Let's change the subject just a little bit to Evolution. Fact or not?
-ZainDustin
I have a way of disclaiming Big Bang from Evolution, and discrediting both of them in themselves. Please, someone explain Evolution for me, the best way you can.
-ZainDustin
No. Create a new thread.
We (humans) may never know. That doesn't preclude the fact they we will try. God willing. :oops: :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTex
Stop talking in terms of "fact". Science rarely deals with facts, instead with theories which over time are refined and improved and brought more into focus with observable data and hypothesis. Which, as new data is collected and advances are made in our understanding, can be replaced by new theories which better explain the phenomenon in question. The best example of this is Newton and Einstein. The former described Newtonian Mechanics, the latter found that Newton's Laws were merely a special case of Relativity. Was Newton wrong? Not really, he just didnt have the full picture. His laws are still probably the most common laws used in Engineering today. Who knows what the next advance will bring into focus, I very much doubt we have the full picture now. This is what is termed the Scientific Process. Nothing is really absolute. The beauty lies in the flexibility.
Mirco-evolution is pretty undisputable at this stage. It can be directly observed and indeed controlled in a laboratory. Macro-evolution is disputed by some, but the vast majority of scientists accept it, but may dispute many details.
You probably didn't mean this in a certain way, but when you mean Nothing, you mean Nothing, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by _Martyr_
So, you're telling me that I'm not absolutely sitting here, typing? You mean I could actually be walking in the streets of Sydney, Australia drinking a Cocktail?
-ZainDustin
Eh, well not really. What I meant is that at any time a new discovery could be made which would completely change our understanding about something in the Universe.
But you enjoy that cocktail! ~;)
Lol, thank you.
Lol, I once had a science teacher that said that absolutely nothing was absolute, so I used that exact line (about Australia and the cocktail), and he couldn't answer me. Some people are just morons...
-ZainDustin
Well, its not totally impossible that you are not infact in Texas at the moment and that you are for some reason tripping out in Sydney imagining all of this, but it is extremely unlikely. The probability would be aproaching zero and so still be something infintesimally tiny (Think 1/10^1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000) that someone using logical deduction would discount it.
:book:
Nothing is impossible, only improbable
It is impossible for a human being to fly (Like Neo, or Superman).
Nuh uh...just improbable...
Based on our understanding of aerodynamics, gravity and the current state of technology, yes. That however, leaves room for any of the above to advance/change.
No doubt further technology could make some kind of something to make this happen, but it's humanly impossible.
-ZainDustin
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by _Martyr_
Nothing is absolutely certain is something we can be pretty certain about. Your example of humans not being able to fly appeals to common sense. Common sens is often very, very wrong. people with common sense used to think the world was flat, or that rocket propulsion wasn't possbile in space (this was true in the early 20th century).
Recently scientist have build a (quantum) computer that works by not working:
This is about as far away from common sens as you can get. :dizzy2:Quote:
Even for the crazy world of quantum mechanics, this one is twisted. A quantum computer program has produced an answer without actually running.
The idea behind the feat, first proposed in 1998, is to put a quantum computer into a “superposition”, a state in which it is both running and not running. It is as if you asked Schrödinger's cat to hit "Run".
With the right set-up, the theory suggested, the computer would sometimes get an answer out of the computer even though the program did not run. And now researchers from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign have improved on the original design and built a non-running quantum computer that really works.
They send a photon into a system of mirrors and other optical devices, which included a set of components that run a simple database search by changing the properties of the photon.
The new design includes a quantum trick called the Zeno effect. Repeated measurements stop the photon from entering the actual program, but allow its quantum nature to flirt with the program's components - so it can become gradually altered even though it never actually passes through.
"It is very bizarre that you know your computer has not run but you also know what the answer is," says team member Onur Hosten.
This scheme could have an advantage over straightforward quantum computing. "A non-running computer produces fewer errors," says Hosten. That sentiment should have technophobes nodding enthusiastically.
BTW: if humans can't fly: how did Jesus ascend to heaven ?
..Based on our current understanding of the Universe. But had you told the average Joe in 1900 about the unthinkably large amounts of energy available inside a lump of Uranium, he would have said it was impossible. Not so.
Because He is God.Quote:
Originally Posted by doc_bean
I think humanity needs a few more hundred years before getting a clue on how the universe was created...so lets leave that to the "nerdy guys in white robes and plastic glasses".
...and in the mean time, we normal people could try and figure out a way to live side by side without blowing each other apart, pushing beliefes down others throuts and just in general hurt people. :2thumbsup:
and the Bible.... so boring, tried to read it once...trust me, Wheel of Time is way more fun to read! :book:
Read the book of Daniel. You like war stories?
-ZainDustin
But He was made human, just like the rest of us. If he was cheating his way through life there wouldn't be much to his sacrifice would there ? I mean, if flying is allowed, surely turning off a few pain receptors is no big deal...Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
He walked on water, he ascended into the sky, and he healed the hurt and sick because God was within him. He was human, yes, but he also was a very powerful vessel used by God.
AND he turned water into wine :2thumbsup:
Some late nights Jesus? (only kidding)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant...3014_q_06.html
this is the solution, no doubt. never question it. ever.
So, according to the Bible flying is humanly possible...