Is the public THAT stupid?

Correct me if im wrong but Im getting more and more the impression from each TW installment that the "developers"=*cough*publishers with a wip*cough* think of the target group audience as the lowest common denominator of low IQ and even lower taste...
Excuse me for the pun but this approach reminds me the first European explorers of Africa and Polynesia that assumed that the locals were a bit better than animals and were offering them impractical but flashy objects in exchange of food and other practical and valuable things.
After the presentation of several units and the general flashy approach by SEGA/CA I wonder is the public that stupid? Should the ignorance and the darkness of FALSE imposed by the media images be preserved and nurished? God forbids that the masses actually LEARN something? And please for Christ sake dont bring "teh limitedtimebudget" excuse, the designing making up and general creation of the "egyptians" in RTW drew more resources when they could simply copy paste the Seleucids...

Hellenes

It's hellenes time again! :wink:

I think it has little to do with what CA thinks their target customers are. There are more games aimed at the same group that are more realistic and not a cartoon of reality. The problem is the vision of the Art Director and artists.

It's a games company's over riding responsibility to make money to run, so targetting the market most likely to buy their games is the sensible option.

Besides, MTW was hardly perfect, remember the 56 year bug? That annoyed the hell out of me and certainly killed the immersion people talk about, luckily they fixed it.

Give them a chance to release the thing before you crucify it.

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Originally Posted by Duke John

It's hellenes time again! :wink:

I think it has little to do with what CA thinks their target customers are. There are more games aimed at the same group that are more realistic and not a cartoon of reality. The problem is the vision of the Art Director and artists.

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Can you please mention even ONE melee game on the scale of TW tactical battles that resembles even at 10% the reality and has the same target group audience?
Cause the only thing that mass appeal strategy games have are poor Dune2 clo(w)nes like AoE, RoN etc...

Hellenes

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Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi

Give them a chance to release the thing before you crucify it.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi

It's a games company's over riding responsibility to make money to run, so targetting the market most likely to buy their games is the sensible option.

Besides, MTW was hardly perfect, remember the 56 year bug? That annoyed the hell out of me and certainly killed the immersion people talk about, luckily they fixed it.

Give them a chance to release the thing before you crucify it.

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So the public IS STUPID?
Can you tell me ONE thing:
If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?
And on the crusifiction thing being fan is one thing but being a occultists is something completely different...

Hellenes

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Originally Posted by hellenes

So the public IS STUPID?
Can you tell me ONE thing:
If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?
And on the crusifiction thing being fan is one thing but being a occultists is something completely different...

Hellenes

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It may, it may not, we will never know.

Too many people are looking for faults in this game, they aren't giving it the chance it deserves. The units may turn out shocking but you may find the gameplay to be the best in the series and an absolute gem of a game, which gets better when some modellers release accurate unit appearances to use.

As long as they LOOK atleast a bit medieval I am fine with that, I care more about how the game plays then whether its entirely accurate, I can handle knights with incorrect armour if the game is a good play and something we can mould to be more realistic.

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Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi

It may, it may not, we will never know.

Too many people are looking for faults in this game, they aren't giving it the chance it deserves. The units may turn out shocking but you may find the gameplay to be the best in the series and an absolute gem of a game, which gets better when some modellers release accurate unit appearances to use.

As long as they LOOK atleast a bit medieval I am fine with that, I care more about how the game plays then whether its entirely accurate, I can handle knights with incorrect armour if the game is a good play and something we can mould to be more realistic.

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Hes right. Although realism helps, the reason people have lost so much interest in RTW is not because of the horribly inaccurate units and factions. People are very much stupid. How many people do you think know anything about ancient civilization? When 14% of americans cannot even point out their own country on a world map (an actual statistic and im sure it applies to all countries) how do you expect them to know that a hastati had a slightly more rounded shield than whats in the game? People are very much stupid. But im getting off topic. The reason RTW died off like it did was because of the crappy gameplay. The AI was complete shit. I could play with my eyes closed and beat the AI on the hardest difficulty settings. For this reason alone the game failed miserably. Yes historical accuracy helps but when CA says that their main focus is on gameplay then i expect a game worth playing.

I myself could care less about historical accuracy. Yes i would prefer it. But id rather have a game that i can actual play more than twice.

With that said. At the moment, I do plan to buy MTW2. But there is a very real possibility that MTW2 will be the last TW game i buy if it does not significantly improve. I say this as a loyal fan who bought STW the day it came out however many years ago.

Anybody here, nomatter how idealistic in theory, would do exactly the same thing as anyone at CA in the same situation. And only arguing about the graphics is playing to the idea that those are the chief concern among consumers. As NagatsukaShumi said, as long as they look medieval, it's fine. Modding graphics is always an option. You can't possibly expect an intricately detailed reproduction of historical authenticity in a vanilla game. No matter what screenshots come out, there are tons of people picking it apart to unrealistic standards, complaining about the tiniest things. Shield is too small, spear is too thin, animation leaves body exposed. As far as the game company goes, there have to be lines drawn as far as how much they can put into all the aspects of such an immense game. Unless the game is represented as being a 100% authentic, historically accurate one by the ones releasing it, it shouldn't be held to those standards.

Also, lets not forget NO Total War has been 100% accurate, its a game BASED on history.

Gameplay is the actual thing to worry about, and we can't do that UNTIL we PLAY the game.

All these anti-MTWII threads are pointless.

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Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi

Also, lets not forget NO Total War has been 100% accurate, its a game BASED on history.

Gameplay is the actual thing to worry about, and we can't do that UNTIL we PLAY the game.

All these anti-MTWII threads are pointless.

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For sure. Unfortunately, it's an undeniable human instinct to criticize and it's terribly easy to do so from afar. Nothing is perfect and it's not hard to point out things that make it so.

I think some people here are being a bit harsh on RTW. OK, the AI left a lot to be desired, and it could have been a lot more historically accurate, but if you all hate the TW series so much, why are you here anyway? It was the brilliant gameplay of the TW series that led to these thriving TW communities. They created a game engine with huge potential, that modders such as those at EB and RTR and god knows how many mods have taken advantage of, giving us one of the most enjoyable PC games of all time.

And don't judge a game just because of a few clips of units. MTW had stunning graphics, and it should have a brilliant gameplay system like RTW. Even if it is a bit of a fantasy game to begin with, modders can build upon that, to give us fantastic gameplaying time like with EB. The mods are what make these forums what they are in the first place.

I just think people should give M2TW a chance. If it wasn't for CA, we wouldn't all be here in the first place, thinking up mods and talking about all our gameplay experiences.

1st Historical Accuracy =/= Gameplay
EB has proved it.
2nd I asked a question and still await an answer:
"If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?"
3rd I dont care if they make the game accurate or not, Im not bashing their game and Im well aware that they have the monopoly of strategic tactical games amongst the idiotic darkness of basebuilding/resourcecollecting clickfest toys...Im just wondering if the mass media including the gaming industry really thinks of the target groupd customer as ignorant morons...

Hellenes

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Originally Posted by hellenes

1st Historical Accuracy =/= Gameplay
EB has proved it.
2nd I asked a question and still await an answer:
"If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?"
3rd I dont care if they make the game accurate or not, Im not bashing their game and Im well aware that they have the monopoly of strategic tactical games amongst the idiotic darkness of basebuilding/resourcecollecting clickfest toys...Im just wondering if the mass media including the gaming industry really thinks of the target groupd customer as ignorant morons...

Hellenes

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What they know is that people buy these games, if they didn't, they'd change their ways.

It might, however, you've got to understand that this is a game based on history, they make units that look "cool" to the majority.

My concern is not so much with historical accuracy (we are, after all, making our own history), as it might not be as much fun for some factions.

I have been playing since S:TW, and have played M:TW VI and the XL mod extensively. The problem that I have with R:TW that has prevented me from buying it, and makes me anxious about M:TW2 is the fact that several persistent bugs are still in R:TW that CA has said they will not address!
This strikes me as a strange stance, as I am somewhat used to companies addressing problems with their product sooner or later, since it has an impact on future sales. I have admired companies that have not "rushed out" a product that was not finished, and have doggedly chased down bugs that do exist. Weak AI is somewhat forgivable, bugs are not.

While complaining about the gameplay of MTW2 is pretty moot, since none of us have played it, I still find it perfectly reasonable to argue (or, as in my case, whine uncontrolably) about its visual aspects, since the eye candy will obviously be a very major selling point, and since we've got quite a few screenshots and previews to talk about...

"Im just wondering if the mass media including the gaming industry really thinks of the target groupd customer as ignorant morons..."

People aren't morons just because they are not afficianados of a particular area of history. A fairer question would be "does the games industry think the target consumer is not an expert on medieval warfare"- and obviously it doesn't for the very good reason that most people aren't.

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Originally Posted by Woad Warrior

I think some people here are being a bit harsh on RTW. OK, the AI left a lot to be desired, and it could have been a lot more historically accurate, but if you all hate the TW series so much, why are you here anyway?

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Because we want more of Shogun and Medieval.

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...MTW had stunning graphics, and it should have a brilliant gameplay system like RTW.

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You surely mean the other way around.

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Originally Posted by hellenes

So the public IS STUPID?

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Not all of it, but the majority. And numbers speak for themselves.

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Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi

Also, lets not forget NO Total War has been 100% accurate, its a game BASED on history.

Gameplay is the actual thing to worry about, and we can't do that UNTIL we PLAY the game.

All these anti-MTWII threads are pointless.

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Indeed. Although pointless complaining threads (little will be changed according to our protests, I fear, and we will only drive CA deeper into their trenches) help us venting. Why? Because of Great Expectations.

But then again, I don’t care about anything else, give me a decent fundament to mod the game and I’m happy.

Yes in my post I meant M2TW has stunning graphics.

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Originally Posted by Wonderland

And only arguing about the graphics is playing to the idea that those are the chief concern among consumers.

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Yes, but since we're getting little else but screenshots to talk about, what else can we discuss but the graphics? Be realistic, please.

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Originally Posted by hellenes

Is the public THAT stupid?

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I can answer this in two ways - the short way, and the big long explanation way. I'm going to answer the short way.

Short way - yes. The general public are all morons who generally think the Romans built the pyramids and that anyone who wasn't Roman was a vile barbarian who commited incest with his Mother.

So therefore, they will only buy something they recognise. After all, they want to be buying a game that looks just like all the movies they've seen of Medieval times, not a historic representation.

If it's historic, then it would just look too boring. And *gasp!* they would actually learn something, that just won't do.

No, instead, the public wants all soldiers to be like fighters out of Mortal Kombat, doing combo moves and with the ability to fly through the air.

And ninja's. The public want ninja's, so don't forget the ninja's CA!

Flying ninja's obviously. With elephants mounted on their backs. And these elephants have trebuchets mounted on their backs. Flying-ninja-elephant-trebuchets. With eye lasers if you buy the upgrade in the Turn of our Lord, 213.

Looking back, that wasn't really a short explanation...

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Originally Posted by Furious Mental

"Im just wondering if the mass media including the gaming industry really thinks of the target groupd customer as ignorant morons..."

People aren't morons just because they are not afficianados of a particular area of history. A fairer question would be "does the games industry think the target consumer is not an expert on medieval warfare"- and obviously it doesn't for the very good reason that most people aren't.

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"If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?"

If the game will sell as good then what is the reason for making up designing and allocating resources to the "Egyptian" faction?
If the game will not sell why will that happen?

Hellenes

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Originally Posted by hellenes

"If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?"

If the game will sell as good then what is the reason for making up designing and allocating resources to the "Egyptian" faction?
If the game will not sell why will that happen?

Hellenes

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I will answer again, it MAY, it MAY NOT. You'll never know.

The Egyptian faction was there because the MAJORITY of people think of Egypt in the way its depicted, not as the Ptolemy's!

We'll see how MTW2 does, the graphics are more gritty and EB like. Accurate or not.

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Originally Posted by hellenes

"If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?"

If the game will sell as good then what is the reason for making up designing and allocating resources to the "Egyptian" faction?
If the game will not sell why will that happen?

Hellenes

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I think you have a point, however it is unfortunately entirely muted by the way you present it. If I was a game designer I wouldn't even read a thread which has a title that contains the word stupid. By using words like "stupid" and "moron" you made sure that your posts cannot have the slightest effect on CA because such posts are principially filtered out as worthless. And rightfully so!

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

I think you have a point, however it is unfortunately entirely muted by the way you present it. If I was a game designer I wouldn't even read a thread which has a title that contains the word stupid. By using words like "stupid" and "moron" you made sure that your posts cannot have the slightest effect on CA because such posts are principially filtered out as worthless. And rightfully so!

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So the proposal of the EB team (which I am NOT part of) towards CA, EB which has historians and archeologists amongst its ranks, was worded in a way that insulted CA?
If youre unaware EB has proposed to CA to offer all the backround information needed to depict the barbarian factions in a more immersive and rich way far before RTW was released.
CA rejected that offer and we all know the result in RTW's shallow and boring barbarian factions.
BTW IMO designers and developers have very few things to say about what gets in the game, its the marketing department's job. Of course no CA emploee will ever say anything like that.

Hellenes

According to CA they never got an offer from the EB team.

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Originally Posted by TB666

According to CA they never got an offer from the EB team.

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I didnt know that the EB team is pretty confident about the fact, otherwise their mod wouldnt exist now...
Do you have the link with the denial?

Hellenes

Searching for it.
Unfortunately the search function here is kinda bad so it will take a while.

Edit: found it https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...784#post859784

That statement by Captain Fishpants just goes to show that the offer from the EB team didn't get very far within CA.

I read somewhere that there are legal reasons why they can't just incorporate stuff from modders, even with the modders' permission.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

I think you have a point, however it is unfortunately entirely muted by the way you present it. If I was a game designer I wouldn't even read a thread which has a title that contains the word stupid. By using words like "stupid" and "moron" you made sure that your posts cannot have the slightest effect on CA because such posts are principially filtered out as worthless. And rightfully so!

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Your right of course, but I dont think that very much said on boards has an effect anyway.

Your gaming purchase does, and there in lies the power of this community. Dont crucify them, provide feedback and wants, and when the product comes out lets see the reviews and what it has and what it doesnt and what they achieved and what they did not.

And then purchase accordingly, the gaming industry is a business and businesses change when the customer withholds thier consumption of the product.

Thats what needs to happen with this release, if we all go off half cocked and preorder then we havent done CA or this gaming community any service at all. I commend guys like hellenes for yelling a little louder then necessary from time to time, it provides a forum by which a logical decuction can be made for the most effiecent way to affect a change.

Your consumption is your power

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

That statement by Captain Fishpants just goes to show that the offer from the EB team didn't get very far within CA.

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Did you also not see that EB stated themselves that they never made a direct offer to CA as well then? Blinkers on?

EB simply provided information publically that COULD be used, it wasn't a direct offer to anybody at CA.

(From the thread in question, just below Captain Fishpant's post...)

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Originally Posted by Colovion

No one officially offered the information in a package to the CA offices - but simply having it posted here and having the game not include any of the material is rejection enough. Not direct rejection - true. IIRC the massive thread was stickied here in the Colloseum for months.

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Seems quite clear to me...

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Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi

Did you also not see that EB stated themselves that they never made a direct offer to CA as well then? Blinkers on?

EB simply provided information publically that COULD be used, it wasn't a direct offer to anybody at CA.

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Then CA wasn't even aware of the publically provided information? Of course they were aware of it, but decided not to use it. Once in a while CA will incorporate a suggestion into the game, but most of the time they don't. I don't think you have any idea of the number of suggestions CA has rejected over the last 5 years. And, if you think Palmedes is going to have any great impact, you're dreaming.

I want to be able to properly evaluate MTW2 before I purchase it. It clear from the way RTW was marketed that you cannot do that by looking at magazine reviews, official interviews, official statements, official screenshots, official videos and the non-optimized, scripted demo.

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Originally Posted by hellenes

So the proposal of the EB team (which I am NOT part of) towards CA, EB which has historians and archeologists amongst its ranks, was worded in a way that insulted CA?

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I'm talking about what you said. Here. Now.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

Then CA wasn't even aware of the publically provided information? Of course they were aware of it, but decided not to use it. Once in a while CA will incorporate a suggestion into the game, but most of the time they don't. I don't think you have any idea of the number of suggestions CA has rejected over the last 5 years. And, if you think Palmedes is going to have any great impact, you're dreaming.

I want to be able to properly evaluate MTW2 before I purchase it. It clear from the way RTW was marketed that you cannot do that by looking at magazine reviews, official interviews, official statements, official screenshots, official videos and the non-optimized, scripted demo.

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I'll say no more on the matter, because its clear people have chosen their camps and won't be moved.

Since many people get their history from movies, games, etc., you'd think the creative types would do their best to be accurate.

The ony reason I could see for them to ignore accuracy would be to save money by not using researchers or for game play reasons.

Then again, they know the game is moddable, so they do give the option of more realism...what I suggest is they work with EB next time to offer their mod as a downloadable program for a small fee. (Notice their Greek mod is being done like this.)

You know what's funny is if they made a Lord of the Rings Total War they would probably have to be MORE careful than with actual history as the fanboys would tear them apart if they messed up.

I suspect historical accuracy is of minimal importance when it comes to TW sales. Most of us strategy gamers are very uniformed about ancient and medieval combat. We would not have known if a EB triarii is more historical than a RTR or a RTW one. Probably because we've never even heard of a triarii. We probably think Romans in chainmail (or even worse, those dinky little square armour things over the hastati's hearts) look daft, whereas lorca segmenta looks historical and cool. Egyptians are expected to look like those of the Pharoahs etc. One reason I love TW games - ironically, especially the derided RTW - is because they are great history lessons. Just seeing a map with the factions laid out is very informative, even if some of the factions and starting positions are a little out. Finding out who exactly the Seleucids were, how close in time Alexander was to the rise of Rome etc has been a revelation for me. But I doubt many other people buy them for that reason.

Where I do agree with Hellenes is that a RTW with EB style units would have sold as well. But I think that's because many of EBs units are just gorgeous looking. If they were all pale and muddy, then however realistic, I doubt they would sell much. For example, EBs Polybian hastati, rorarii, levees etc would not attract many mass market gamers, although the EB triarii and equites would as they are stunning. Think about a Napoelonic TW: units in full dress would look splendid. Depicting them as they would look in a campaign, dirty, often shoeless, with ragged uniforms etc would be disasterous for sales. But by this criteria (graphics), RTW was head and shoulders over MTW. And M2TW seems to have caught up with EB and RTR in terms of nice looking units, even if they are less realistic.

I'd rather have stick figures that work properly.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

I'd rather have stick figures that work properly.

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Yep

As I understand the issue, the fancy graphics (that do make for wonderful screenshots and a more immersive game sometimes) actually prevent us from correcting the bizarre individual unit movement speeds. All I'll need to see in any MTW2 demo is fully armoured foot troops running away from pursuing cav, and I'll not be a buyer.

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You said it yourself: "No one officially offered the information in a package to the CA offices..." There was no rejection of anything.

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There is a big difference between that which is offered and that which is available to use. Holding up any mod as a saviour is quite wrong, simply because with no game there would be no mod. Unless that is, the modders would like to release their own game. I am all in favour of historical accuracy but for every pro there is a con. Yes, the game would sell equally well with EB unit skins. So what? It sold well enough without them and, dare I risk repeating myself, EB would have had nothing to work with without RTW being released.

I would have liked all the TW games to be accurate but they were not. I want MTW II to be accurate but I doubt it will be. What we should all be happy about is that the game IS moddable

......Orda

What looks "cooler" this:

https://img362.imageshack.us/img362/...toninfo2qp.png

or this

https://img362.imageshack.us/img362/...toninfo1gz.png

~:rolleyes:

Hellenes

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https://img362.imageshack.us/img362/...toninfo2qp.png

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That one hands down.~:cheers:
But on the other hand I always loved the headhurlers so maybe that wasn't a good comparison.

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Originally Posted by screwtype

I read somewhere that there are legal reasons why they can't just incorporate stuff from modders, even with the modders' permission.

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Yup... I presume that the situation is similar to authors and fans giving ideas for books. If you want your favourite author to write a book on something you have made up, the worst thing you can do it send the material to him. Then it will never happen.

But CA has used EB supplied info. I know that the text for the Night Raiders is more or less the same as one of the members wrote here (for a dev discussion), after which a dev said he would look into it, and apparently did pretty well.
So they are clearly selecting it.

Btw, what Captain Fishpants is, that not only has he, personally, not seen it, but that we are talking about specific info. Not a general announcement that they could receive free help.
If the EB people did send such an offer of help, then it is no suprirse that one of them would have to say "no, we didn't send you any specific info."

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Originally Posted by TB666

That one hands down.~:cheers:
But on the other hand I always loved the headhurlers so maybe that wasn't a good comparison.

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I suspect most RTW buyers would agree with you. EB presents a guy in dull coloured clothing and a sword against RTWs David Beckham hurling a head. Beckham wins hands down in the mass market "coolness" factor.

And I think that is true with nearly all the ahistorical units/features that offended with vanilla RTW - the dogs, pigs, screeching women, the druids, the Imperial Romans arriving too early, the pharoah-type Egyptians, the flaming onagers of death, the scythed chariots (EB is thinking of pulling them), the machinegun archery, the uber leaping cavalry etc etc. I suspect they all added variety and spice to the mass market players. Those like myself who see TW as a historical wargame have to accept we are in a small (vocal) minority here.

I don't think the public are stupid - they are just not history buffs and don't place historical accuracy high up on the list when buying a strategy game.

Its not that Im as a history fan dislike fantasy...
Its just that I hate travesties of cheap bastadization between historicall accuracy and someones sick imagination that is attempted to pass as historically immersive.
I want my historical game historical and my fantasy game fantasy.
I find it baffling how you cant see this guy with a HUGE double handed sword that has the place for that sword on his back (like samurai) as "cool" I find him much "cooler" than a cartoony blond boy that thows heads...
I have no problem with fantasy like:
https://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7996/00008qc.png

Hellenes

I wouldnt categorize myself as a "history buff", but if you're gonna make a game like TW with a historical setting then it should have more than a smidgen of reality. Without that gaming aspect, it's just another RTS and should be compared to games such as AoE (that can be fun but dont pretend to be "wargames" or wargame-like).

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Originally Posted by hellenes

...
I want my historical game historical and my fantasy game fantasy......

Hellenes

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Exactly. I have no problems with super fast elves and would be more likely to buy a fantasy TW than another unrealistic TW game that bugs me.

Just for the record, EB is not THE history, it is a version of history recreated from a particular perspective, which is what Khelvan himself said on a number of occasions. If CA adopted EB as THE historical source, then they would receive a lot of complaints on historical grounds, from many people, me foremost among them. As it is now, CA created a neutral platform, EB can create their thing there, other people can create theirs, and there's no protest.

I really couldn't care less if a border of a tunic on a soldier is wrong, and I'm not going froth at the mouth with fury at CA for being so horribly evil as to commit such an inexcusable historical mistake. People who do that... need to get out more. As long as I'm allowed to change things, all I want from CA is a beautiful immersive engine, and an exciting and challenging gameplay.

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Originally Posted by dsyrow1

Just for the record, EB is not THE history, it is a version of history recreated from a particular perspective, which is what Khelvan himself said on a number of occasions. If CA adopted EB as THE historical source, then they would receive a lot of complaints on historical grounds, from many people, me foremost among them. As it is now, CA created a neutral platform, EB can create their thing there, other people can create theirs, and there's no protest.

I really couldn't care less if a border of a tunic on a soldier is wrong, and I'm not going froth at the mouth with fury at CA for being so horribly evil as to commit such an inexcusable historical mistake. People who do that... need to get out more. As long as I'm allowed to change things, all I want from CA is a beautiful immersive engine, and an exciting and challenging gameplay.

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Present those "complaints" with something called arguments and if they are strong enough I cant see any reason for them not changing it.
And please can you show some respect and stop telling other people what to do...
A fan is something completel different from a fanboy...

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Originally Posted by econ21

Where I do agree with Hellenes is that a RTW with EB style units would have sold as well. But I think that's because many of EBs units are just gorgeous looking. If they were all pale and muddy, then however realistic, I doubt they would sell much. For example, EBs Polybian hastati, rorarii, levees etc would not attract many mass market gamers, although the EB triarii and equites would as they are stunning. Think about a Napoelonic TW: units in full dress would look splendid. Depicting them as they would look in a campaign, dirty, often shoeless, with ragged uniforms etc would be disasterous for sales. But by this criteria (graphics), RTW was head and shoulders over MTW. And M2TW seems to have caught up with EB and RTR in terms of nice looking units, even if they are less realistic.

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I gotta' tell ya'... In all honesty, I'd be extatic if they made shoeless, muddy, raggedy-ass soldiers and I think a lot of others probably would too. They've already made strides in that direction with M2TW with mud and I think even blood somewhat accumulating on troops over the course of the battle.

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Originally Posted by hellenes

So the public IS STUPID?
Can you tell me ONE thing:
If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?
And on the crusifiction thing being fan is one thing but being a occultists is something completely different...

Hellenes

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Is the public that stupid, its a rhetorical question of course, Hellenes; deep down you know the answer as well as do I and anyone else. Yes, the public is that stupid. EB is fantastic, played it, but have played RTR 6.0, 6.1, 6.2, in the end it's not the corps that care for what is correct in a historical game, it's the people who play, mod and research to make it better.:book:

stop crying and mod the game if you dont like it when it comes out hellenes.

oh, and i dont think that not being overly concerned with historical accuracy makes someone 'stupid'. also, you are a member of the public.

"oh, and i dont think that not being overly concerned with historical accuracy makes someone 'stupid'. also, you are a member of the public."

You're wasting your time, Wandarah. These people are convinced that anyone who doesn't share their highly specific interests and knowledge is a Neanderthal.

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Originally Posted by Wandarah

stop crying and mod the game if you dont like it when it comes out hellenes.

oh, and i dont think that not being overly concerned with historical accuracy makes someone 'stupid'. also, you are a member of the public.

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What harm would then the historical accurate LOOK of units would do? Do they have to be product of someones poor imagination?
How "cool" does this look?

https://img349.imageshack.us/img349/...tryinfo8nt.png

Compared to this:

https://img349.imageshack.us/img349/...maninfo5ur.gif

I never said that the public was stupid because it doesnt know anything about history, if it doesnt know anything about it why should it be kept in darkness?
Should all others bow to that ignorance and preserve it?
And its not only ignorance its also the preservation of FALSE beliefs, I hear everywhere:"What one sees in Hollywood movies/games/TV isnt history"
But the truth is that people take these false images as FACTS and then expect the same ignorant trend to be followed by everyone...
We all know that fantasy sells in the gaming industry, but its getting kinda old everyone catering to the same unimaginative, poorly conicieved "fast-food" fantasy like the "Egyptians" in RTS...
As I said before I want my fantasy game fantasy and my historical game historical...


Hellenes

yeah, i am arent i.

Don't make this personal, lads.

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Originally Posted by hellenes

https://img349.imageshack.us/img349/...tryinfo8nt.png

Compared to this:

https://img349.imageshack.us/img349/...maninfo5ur.gif

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Hmmm tough choice on that one.
The pink I always thought fit the eastern spearmans quite nicely and think they look cool on the battlefield as well.

Now, now, Hellenes, historical accuracy is not everything. I imagine that I am as thoroughly disgusted by the Egyptians as you do (and probably will with the Aztecs *shudders*) but my problem would be different than yours. I presume you're angry that the Ptolemaics are brushed aside in favor of the affectionately-called "mummies," and the unhistorical side of it. For me its the shame of seeing such an unbalanced game with Rome trouncing everybody left and right, Pharaonic Egypt trouncing everybody left and right, while the real superpowers are unbalanced and weak.

The key word here is balance. In other words, gameplay. Medieval Total-War was quite well balanced; a few flaws, like the Spanish-Almohad massive empires, do not hinder the fun. Roman-Egyptian domination of the map hinders the fun.

CA has limited time. Let them do their job, which is create the best gameplay possible to build on, and let them garner their sales, which is by the gritty battles and cool units. I expect great things from M2TW but I do not expect historical accuracy. My only demand is a fun game. And I trust them.

We here obviously have a talented modding community--and mods, if the developer supports them, can do wonders. Just look at Morrowind. Look at the vanilla game, then a modded game. You will see why it is such a popular game.

Historical can be fun, but the excruciating process of research, debate, continuous historical revisions, compromise, and others of such nature will only suck up valuable time. CA's goal is to break into the mainstream, unlike, say, Paradox, which caters to the historical folk.

And yes, the public is ignorant of history. Stupid? Maybe. Doesn't matter.

Dear Antiochus,
I would have 0 demands from CA if the said making up, designing and allocation of resources on pointless poor fantasy stuff didnt harm gameplay design.
Why should the company pay for the working hours on the mummies design when this can be allocated to MP coding or even better on "AI" code?
By aligning to the dominant FALSE beliefs CA and any company admits its role in PRESERVING the ignorance and the darkness that the Hollywood has put the general masses.
Should the masses be kept in their imaginary ignorant world? What would happen if RTW was historically accurate in LOOKS? Wouldnt people buy it?
I seriously doubt that...

PS As I said before I dont deter fantasy, I adore LOTR and Wlesmanas LOTRTW mod never left my HDD, Ive even combined METW and LOTRTW to play the campaign earlier.
But LOTR is inspired and quality fantasy, not some poor excuse of design...

Would RTW released with EB-style units have sold as well as RTW actually did? Probably would have been pretty close. I doubt whether you'd have heard ANY complaints from PC Gamer and the review fraternity along the lines of 'where are the head hurlers?', and 'I wish this game had flaming pigs'. It would have got the same gushing response. We all bought the game knowing it had daft units didn't we? I suspect the reverse would be largely true.

That said, when you have a publishing deal with the big boys you have to explore the avenues that might get you those extra sales, like head hurlers and units that fit a public perception rather than historical fact.

I would expect there to be some glaring inaccuracies in M2TW, mostly of the 'fantasy unit' type as opposed to a case of poor implementation or lack of research. In other words, a design decision.

But regardless of that, will I care if my crusaders are wearing ray-bans as long as THE GAMEPLAY IS GOOD? No of course not. If the AI is challenging will I worry that a there's a guy over there with a brightly coloured hat instead of a muddy brown one? No.

Just give me a good economy, sensible diplomacy (that has a purpose) and a challenging and tactically aware AI, and the rest will take care of itself.

Cheers,

Rob.

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Originally Posted by RJV

Would RTW released with EB-style units have sold as well as RTW actually did? Probably would have been pretty close. I doubt whether you'd have heard ANY complaints from PC Gamer and the review fraternity along the lines of 'where are the head hurlers?', and 'I wish this game had flaming pigs'. It would have got the same gushing response. We all bought the game knowing it had daft units didn't we? I suspect the reverse would be largely true.

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Agreed on that...

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Originally Posted by RJV

That said, when you have a publishing deal with the big boys you have to explore the avenues that might get you those extra sales, like head hurlers and units that fit a public perception rather than historical fact.

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Who has shaped this perception? Maybe the same media that now is bowing to and nurishing it?
The bizzare thing is that games like Full Spectrum Warrior and First to Fight boast their realism as an asset. They advertise as being used by the US army as simulators (same thing that RTW did with Time Commanders and Decisive Battles).
And the Pro Evolution Soccer series have as their central selling point over FIFA the REALISM of the gameplay....
I doubt that it wouldnt be an adverising boost if RTW could claim being as close as possible to Ancient warfare in the looks of the troops.
EA used the BF1941 modders to make BF2 why CA cant do the same?

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Originally Posted by RJV

I would expect there to be some glaring inaccuracies in M2TW, mostly of the 'fantasy unit' type as opposed to a case of poor implementation or lack of research. In other words, a design decision.

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And that is IMO a clear demonstration of CA/SEGA's FEAR to sway from the well known road of ignorance and false beliefs.

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Originally Posted by RJV

But regardless of that, will I care if my crusaders are wearing ray-bans as long as THE GAMEPLAY IS GOOD? No of course not.

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If you are not playing these games for IMMERSION in the era, IMMERSION in the setting and just for pure challenge IMO youre missing a lot.

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Originally Posted by RJV

If the AI is challenging will I worry that a there's a guy over there with a brightly coloured hat instead of a muddy brown one? No.

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Ill have to disagree with you on that the so called "AI" (for marketing purposes so we dont realise how far behind the coding is in that area) will never offer anyone NO challenge without at the same time frustrating with endless stacks of troops and overpowered through sheer bonuses strength peasants that chew knights for breakfast.
Ill sound like a pessimist but the best that I can expect in "AI" coding is for it to improve on the campaign map and overcome the player through sheer stack strength...

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Originally Posted by RJV

Just give me a good economy, sensible diplomacy (that has a purpose) and a challenging and tactically aware AI, and the rest will take care of itself.

Cheers,

Rob.

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RTR had 100000 downloads on the first date of release...
Without the modding community this game would end up in the dustbin for alot of people, its a smart move in shortterm for CA to milk the money but this is not how customer relations are being built.
So the rest will not take care for itself. It will take the hard work of many people to raise the design level of the game from the age group that Tim Ansell has set:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/...ode=interviews
(3rd video from the top)

As a conclusion I have to say that design affects gameplay as well, the overall focus on twitch gameplay with flashy effects and 0 substance featured in RTW has lead to the high kill/movement speeds, the tiny battlemaps, and most importantly drew resources from code development...
I REALLY wish to be proven wrong with M2TW and my only hope is for it to be moddable enough for the community to give us the game that the publishing beurocrats wont give us.

Hellenes

Hellenes I'm with you on most of your points to be honest.

Public perception is a difficult one. Thing is, when you're dealing with what is essentially ancient history (in the case of the Ptolemies), the average gamer cares not one jot about the accuracy of his egyptian unit. In his (or her) head they have a perception that they all look like anubis warriors out of 'the mummy', and that is that.

But here's the freaky thing - if the egyptian units DIDN'T look like anubis warriors and were in fact historically accurate, would this hurt sales? In my opinion absolutely not. But you try getting that through to a marketing executive...


When I say 'the rest will take care of itself' I am referring to the modding community. I shouldn't have to rely on this community to make my game look better, but in a lot of cases these days this is how it is. Look at X3 as a prime example. If CA get the engine right, I'll be happy with that for a while, and historical accuracy can come later. I'm a keen total war player and have been since shogun day 1, but by no means hardcore (hey, i have kids) - I suspect other more hardcore types want the accuracy as well from day M2TW day1, which is fair enough but I can wait a couple of months. I was heavily into RTR, even modded on their forums for a bit, and playing the vanilla game made me realise just how much work they did.

To be honest I thought MTW VI was challenging on the battlefield. Like I said I'm keen but not hardcore, I don't have the reactions I once did, and I do like it when the 'AI' beats me in a fair-ish fight. I suspect I am years away from a truly challenging AI but it doesn't stop me wanting one!

Cheers,

Rob

Now, now hellenes.

You should sooo get out more mate...
Much as I like you guys it seems lives of some of yous revolve around this game exclusively.
Everyone forgets it's only a bloody game and if you don't like it it only means you're not within the target group.
In case you're finding it hard to understand - THE GAME IS NOT FOR YOU. It's over dude, give up.
Make your own game why dontcha.:wall:

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Originally Posted by ShadowMagnet

Now, now hellenes.

You should sooo get out more mate...
Much as I like you guys it seems lives of some of yous revolve around this game exclusively.
Everyone forgets it's only a bloody game and if you don't like it it only means you're not within the target group.
In case you're finding it hard to understand - THE GAME IS NOT FOR YOU. It's over dude, give up.
Make your own game why dontcha.:wall:

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Now, now ShadowMagnet.

You should sooo get out more mate...
Much as I like you it seems lives of some of yous revolve around the fans of this game exclusively.
Everyone forgets it's only a bloody fans forum and if you don't like it it only means you're not in the right place.
In case you're finding it hard to understand - THIS FORUM IS NOT FOR YOU. It's over dude, give up.
Go to the .COM why dontcha.:wall:

Hellenes

Shadowmagnet and Hellenes, please try to avoid personal attacks.

I think this thread has run its course.

Self explanatory, this, hellenes, econ21 et al.
It just winds me up a bit when the game gets a brutal kicking for no reason.
I would just prefer it if all of yous gave it a fair go before statements are made, is all.
Maybe I'm just bitter coz my tenner says CA will let me down no end when push comes to shove. And I'll have to fork out forty quid just to know this for sure...
Nought personal peeps, sorry if I was being mean. :embarassed:

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Originally Posted by ShadowMagnet

Self explanatory, this, hellenes, econ21 et al.
It just winds me up a bit when the game gets a brutal kicking for no reason.
I would just prefer it if all of yous gave it a fair go before statements are made, is all.
Maybe I'm just bitter coz my tenner says CA will let me down no end when push comes to shove. And I'll have to fork out forty quid just to know this for sure...
Nought personal peeps, sorry if I was being mean. :embarassed:

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Its ok mate ~:pat:
You should see me in Greek forums trying to persuade my AoE/WIII maniac compatriots how amazing (compared to the rest) strategy game RTW is... ~D
You just should understand that this all critisism is coming mainly due to the last traces of hope that remains in us MTW nostalgic folk that CA will return to its roots of immersive and deep strategy games that kept us awake till dawn...and also its the last attempt to awake the concience in developers that worked at MTW since once the game is released its too late...
As I said in the other thread: I REALLY hope to be proven wrong and all my fears to be proven baseless.

Hellenes

Awwwww ~:grouphug:


.........*runs off*.........

Thanks, Shadowmagnet and Hellenes - it is good to be able to bring this thread to close on an amicable note. ~:grouphug: