Petition CA for MTW source code?

[caravel]

ID Software released the source code for most of their earlier games, including Q1, Q2 and Q3 : http://www.idsoftware.com/business/techdownloads/

Rebellion software released the source code for the first AvP game.

All of these are games that made huge profits, have huge and very real modding communities and in the case of the Quake series, spawned hundreds of other titles many of them free: http://www.urbanterror.net/news.php

The reason that the CA won't release the source code to STW (and MTW - but first things first) is anyone's guess. IMHO it's because we're dealing with a company that cares little for it's fans, especially those long term fans that bought the games and put CA where it is today.

When the source code is released, it does not mean that the game becomes free. In the case of the Quake games you have the necessary code to build the binaries and libs that the game needs. You then need the game media (the pak files containing the textures, models, weapons etc) in order to get the game running. To get to this point you need to buy the game OR download it illegally. But people still download it illegally anyway - so this would be no different to them releasing a patch.

It would work exactly the same for CA:

1) They would release the source code for the binaries.

2) The open source community would immediately sieze on this and:

a) Fix the problems in the existing game engine, port it to other platforms (GNU/Linux, MacOS, etc)

b) Start improving AI, adding functionality etc.

3) Joe public wants to download and run (let's call it) Open Medieval - Total War (for now). He gets either the win32, Mac or Linux build from sourceforge - installs runs and.... nothing

4) The user then reads the manual and realises that he needs the original game. He doesn't need the original windows binaries but he does need the game media files (images, sounds, scripts etc) and the licence.

5) Once he has these, which he pays for, he's up and running. He may be a Mac user or a Linux user, therefore he's a customer CA would otherwise not have had.

Tried, tested, works. Now tell me why CA won't release the source code for a 9 year old game?

[edyzmedieval]

Beats me... I really can't figure it out why CA won't release the source code. I'm sure they've seen this thread at least once, but still, I guess it doesn't matter.

What about actually making a petition and sending it over to them? Next year I'm off to uni in England, so I'll gladly hand them the petition personally.

[Ludens]

I am not sure if this petition is going to impress CA. I mean, why vote no? It doesn't cost us anything. A more relevant question would be: if CA releases the source code, would you be able (and willing) to do something with it? M:TW source code is likely to be thousand and thousands of lines long, so even trying to understand how it works will be a major undertaking.

[Garnier]

Unless they were really bad programmers who created it, it isn't that hard to piece it together and understand it, it does take time depending on how much code they used, but mostly depends on how good a job they did making it.

At least they're not Russians with Russian comments all through it.

Though I agree, they aren't going to think they have anything to gain by releasing it. Though I do think (with reference to Caravel's post) that they would gain from it, because the possible mods would still require the original game. Releasing the source code doesn't mean you release all license to the game. It doesn't make pirating legal.

[edyzmedieval]

Look around, we still have a fair share of experienced MTW moddern around. Blind King of Bohemia, Axalon, Tyberius... Even me, if the source code would be released or at least have some option of getting it, I will gladly take up my best arms and join the modding fight.

Make a petition? Enough support? Enough votes?
How about we all make an e-mail and send it to CA?

[Kaidonni]

It's better than just sitting around talking about it, that. If I could just get rid of the battle mouse-over bug, I'd be happy. They are still selling the game, and it is their responsibility to inform people of the issues with it on more modern PCs (and a majority of gamers are not going to come to places like here at the Org or other Total War sites, they've only bought the game to play it casually). I knew there could be issues back in 2006 when I got Medieval Gold, but I was lucky. Others won't know, and won't be so lucky, even if it's as simple as only needing the button fix or tweaking a few graphics card settings. They'll be frustrated and want to return the game, and feel cheated by CA or Nvidia, or both. Not really that good for reputation. As long as a game is sold, there should be some semblance of support, not a pretence that all is fine. It is also inefficient to continue selling the game, expending resources on the production of the software and other items and shipping them to stores, if the most probable result is that people can't play it.

It is not as if anyone is looking to pirate the game by having the source code. Mentioned before is the fact that anything done with the source code would still require that people have the original game. That means people will still be paying for the game. Sure, there will be people who pirate the game, nothing can stop that. But short of not producing and selling any games, only so much can be done to combat that. Punishing paying customers and those of us who are honest and only have good intentions is not the way to combat it. Nothing malicious will be done with the source code, and it only needs to be given to certain trusted people. CA and Sega both know that people can be trusted in this manner, too - look at Jack Lusted. He tried his darned best to fix Rome and Medieval 2, and eventually got hired by CA because of his contribution. They believed in him enough to allow him to become more intimately involved with the development of their games. They trusted him, that he was right about the flaws in the games. It would not be so different with providing someone with the source code. We swing it in our favour by suggesting we pay to have it - maybe to 'hire' it, even, rather than own it. Non-disclosure agreements are all that is required, only certain modders being allowed to have access to the code. And even if someone did distribute it further and pirated it...all games have been pirated, and again it does not mean we are all like that. Most people will not go down that route, most are willing to pay for the game. Something about not stealing. CA and Sega would do well not to be too pessimistic about Human nature, it is insulting.

I believe the issue is even being made more complex than need be. Non-disclosure agreements, paying to be able to have access to altering the code, maybe even a system that stops it (or does a very good job at trying to stop it) from being distributed beyond the original recipients. Maybe something along the lines of CD-keys, and they can only be registered once. This could make everyone happy. And it could net CA and Sega more money and a better reputation. Medieval Total War is a timeless game. It is at a time when the Total War games were really only just starting. It is as classical as Age of Empires and Age of Empires 2, or Doom and Doom 2. Same goes for Shogun. Do they really want to let this game die?

It takes a lot of effort to alter the source code for a game, anyway. And an artistic eye, nonetheless. Your generic pirates aren't going to get anything from pirating the source code. There probably wouldn't even be any effort put into distributing it. We're not talking about downloading something to play here (although I am NOT endorsing such an action, might I add), we're talking about modding. Not only that, but programming and coding. Most people do not have the patience or the time to do any of that. If they have the skills, then they are less likely to be the scum that doesn't pay for games because they probably want to do something with programming as a career. People who mod and who code do not steal, they are not the common thieves CA and Sega might be taking them for. These are people who would easily sympathise, not just empathise, with the pain endured through seeing your artistic/commercial property stolen. They don't even want people to steal any of their work. And I don't think people like being hypocrits, so...

It is definitely time for us to do something. Either we make a concerted effort to make a future for MTW, or we just decide to play it until we no longer can and let it fade into the darkness of the past.

PS: Besides, petitions won't be enough by themselves - individuals are smart, but get people into large masses and see their true nature . What we need is to argue our points and ensure that we are in the right. Debates are all about that - argue your points, take what you can from your opponent, and still find a way to be right somehow and win. No point in trying to lose.

[edyzmedieval]

Very good point Kaidonni.

I was recently playing a bit of Medieval: Total War, to remind myself of the glory days of the Total War series, and I still throughly enjoyed the medieval and historic feel of the game, something which cannot be reproduced at all in M2TW. And at the same time I thought it's a real shame we can't do anything to fix the diplomacy and other bugs which clear hinder the game progress.

[rabcarl]

*Grand visions of mod allowing the actual campaign map to be played on multiplayer* O.K. back to reality :)

[oz_wwjd]

I would personally contribute a sizable sum towards working out the annoying graphics cards issues with newer cards,as this has destroyed what was one of the best games for me..

[edyzmedieval]

I would personally contribute a sizable sum towards working out the annoying graphics cards issues with newer cards,as this has destroyed what was one of the best games for me..

This goes to show the atachment Total War veterans have towards this game...
Creative Assembly, please take notice.

[dragula42]

In Information Systems 300 our professor told us that sometimes customer service is so bad sometimes that people build anti-sites. The example she gave was www.ihatedell.com

Perhaps we could do something similar for TCA? since asking them nicely isn't doing anything?
just a thought I had, perhaps it would motivate them more to fix the problems...

[oz_wwjd]

Well if someone wants to contact CA,and find out if they are willing to sell,or at least let us look at the source code,as I can't see Nvidia fixing this anytime soon. With so many dedicated modders here,I'm 99% sure we could fix the problem,IF we can get a look at the code and find out what's causing the problems in the first place..

[oz_wwjd]

What would be the best way to contact CA and see what they are willing to do for us,about the MTW souce code? Not exactly sure of the best way to get in contact with them,except for the tech support e-mail address..

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Sure, why should they not release it?

[Gaiseric]

I voted yes, though I doubt a petition will have any effect.

I am a big time pc gamer. I have been playing pc games for over 15 years and I have hundreds of pc games. I am just getting into modding some games, although I find it very tedious. I dont know any programming languages and the source code would be useless to me.

Regarding editing the source code: I dont know why it would be illegal to change or modify something that I own. A law like this seems absurd and infringes on my freedoms as a United States Citizen. Furthermore if I buy something and improve it, I should have the right to distribute and even sell this product along with the improvements I made. This is actually the model for many American businesses. I suspect any jury would agree to this should someone decide to change a law or circumvent it.

I do not know what the penalties for breaking this technology law are. Surely there are much more heinous crimes. If I could modify the source code to improve any of my games I would do it and would gladly share my improvements to the community. In my opinion, CA and Sega should be more concerned with pirate torrents, where people can get their games without paying, then of people editing some file on a 5 year old game.

[vartan]

Regarding editing the source code: I dont know why it would be illegal to change or modify something that I own. A law like this seems absurd and infringes on my freedoms as a United States Citizen. Furthermore if I buy something and improve it, I should have the right to distribute and even sell this product along with the improvements I made. This is actually the model for many American businesses. I suspect any jury would agree to this should someone decide to change a law or circumvent it.

I do not know what the penalties for breaking this technology law are. Surely there are much more heinous crimes. If I could modify the source code to improve any of my games I would do it and would gladly share my improvements to the community. In my opinion, CA and Sega should be more concerned with pirate torrents, where people can get their games without paying, then of people editing some file on a 5 year old game.

Except you don't actually own the code when you buy the game. You just own one license to play the game. Copyright is pretty complicated and, heck, there's a reason why we have so many specialized copyright lawyers.

EDIT: And in light of copyright laws, you aren't free to edit certain things, or at least edit and distribute the new versions as long as you don't own the rights to whatever is in question. I know I might go into law in a couple of years, but whatever it is, it certainly will NOT be copyright law. Sheesh, some complicated stuff for me! And btw, you're completely right about the law. The only way this can be avoided (this whole copyright entanglement), is if the laws were changed to make certain things possible that are impossible today. But as we all know, changing the law takes time and effort. Not an overnight, easy task. Definitely worth it most of the time, if it means better life for citizens.

[Gaiseric]

Except you don't actually own the code when you buy the game. You just own one license to play the game. Copyright is pretty complicated and, heck, there's a reason why we have so many specialized copyright lawyers.

Is that what the liscense agreements say when you click agree to install the game? I never read them, but I have to accept them to install the game. I guess if you get the game illegaly and bypass the agreement, you are free to modify the files?

If its on my computer, its my property!!!

I wonder how well these laws are enforced? I think it would be easy to realease a mod via a torrent, that edits the source code. With all the illegal torrents out there, they would never find the host.

[vartan]

Is that what the liscense agreements say when you click agree to install the game? I never read them, but I have to accept them to install the game. I guess if you get the game illegaly and bypass the agreement, you are free to modify the files?

If its on my computer, its my property!!!

I wonder how well these laws are enforced? I think it would be easy to realease a mod via a torrent, that edits the source code. With all the illegal torrents out there, they would never find the host.

Piracy is easier committed than prevented. Hence why we still have piracy in some seas today. And where we don't have it or have reduced it greatly, we have actually spent (and still spend) lots of money to keep it that way.

And yeah, you pretty much have to pay to play. I think it's what they call an End User License. And you own that license, correct. You don't own the code that eventuated that game, or anything of that sort. You just own one license. Just like I don't own Microsoft Windows, but own the license that lets me RUN that software on this computer (that allows me to reply to your posts, get online, and so on and so forth).

[drone]

Regarding editing the source code: I dont know why it would be illegal to change or modify something that I own. A law like this seems absurd and infringes on my freedoms as a United States Citizen. Furthermore if I buy something and improve it, I should have the right to distribute and even sell this product along with the improvements I made. This is actually the model for many American businesses. I suspect any jury would agree to this should someone decide to change a law or circumvent it.

I do not know what the penalties for breaking this technology law are. Surely there are much more heinous crimes. If I could modify the source code to improve any of my games I would do it and would gladly share my improvements to the community. In my opinion, CA and Sega should be more concerned with pirate torrents, where people can get their games without paying, then of people editing some file on a 5 year old game.

Without a public release of the source code, the source falls under copyright. The object code (compiled and linked executable) is what is sold on the disk, along with the artwork/music/configuration files. The source remains the property of CA/Sega.

If for some reason CA did release the source code, I imagine it would be covered under some form of license which would restrict how it could be distributed. Something along the lines of the GPL, you wouldn't be allowed to sell it, even if you modified it extensively.

[Gaiseric]

Without a public release of the source code, the source falls under copyright. The object code (compiled and linked executable) is what is sold on the disk, along with the artwork/music/configuration files. The source remains the property of CA/Sega.

If for some reason CA did release the source code, I imagine it would be covered under some form of license which would restrict how it could be distributed. Something along the lines of the GPL, you wouldn't be allowed to sell it, even if you modified it extensively.

Since CA is doing nothing, there must be a way to bypass the liscence agreement. For instance what does the agreement\copywright allow you to do with the .exe? Does it specify what files can and can not be edited?

A workaround would be to not install MTW and get access to the .exe through your CD drive. Without having agreed to the liscense agreement, you would have no knowledge about what is and what is not your property. A person like me could even plead ignorance in court. I know very little programming and learned more about the source code today then I have my whole life.

The thought is someone who modifies the .exe through their CD drive, without installing the game and agreeing to the terms, could then host the changes. Every person who would download and use those changes would not edit their own .exe, but simply move it out of the MTW folder and move the modified version in.

There has got to be something that the gaming comunity can do instead of waiting around and signing petitions.

[drone]

[geek]
The .exe on the CD is the result of the compiler/linker converting the human readable source code files (C code and include files in this case) to a machine readable format (x86 Windows compatible). Not much can be done with the .exe without converting that back to a human readable format, and the conversion would not contain developer comments or useful symbol names (functions and variables). Basically worthless for the purposes of fixing these bugs or improving the game. The source code (.c and .h files, along with Makefiles) is what is necessary to do actual work, and these files remain on CA's servers (and hopefully backups ) and remain CA's property unless they decide to release them to the public.
[/geek]

The EULA does not really have anything to do with basic copyright on a piece of software. It adds additional restrictions on the use of the files on the disk. The EULA does not cover source, since the source is not part of the product delivered on the CD and is already covered under copyright.

Anyhoo, discussion of torrents, EULA evading, DRM evading, piracy, and disassembling is not allowed at the Org. So let's get back to discussing the petition, shall we?

[vartan]

You could always do the nice thing and create a brand new indie battle engine.