How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

[Tera]

I think we should make a clear distinction between moderators and administrators.

A moderator's role is to in a way, 'police' his given forum. It is mostly a reactive/passive job since 95% of the moderator's actions are reactions to someone's else actions. Basic knowledge of the topics discussed in his assigned forum is critical because he needs to properly assess, judge and take action on any situation that might arise. However, above all, the moderator must possess good social skills, good judgement, common sense and leadership qualities. He does not need to have a deep knowledge of the matter or be very involved in the multi player world.

On the other hand, an administrator's role is active. They dictate website and forum policy, create & execute ideas and keep the website and forums up-to-date. Their actions and attitudes will directly translate into what The Org is communicating to the outside world. If the website leaders don't give a crap about multi player or do not properly cater for the MP world, it will show and people will leave the forum. As Elmo says, this is part of the reason TotalWars.Net was created and why almost everyone who played STW/MTW online migrated from here to there. On the other hand, if the administrators are deeply involved in the multiplayer world, the site will reap benefits. For example ...
- seeing continuously updated multiplayer news on the frontpage communicates that The Org cares about the MP world
- seeing TotalWar.Org staff in the foyer and in online games communicates that The Org is really into multiplayer.
- The administrators will be in a position to gain the attention & confidence of online players
- It will be far easier to organize tournaments and other events
- The Org will be relevant again when it comes to who's who and what's happening in the multiplayer world.

To sum it up, I think the Org seriously needs some 100% crazy, multiplayer addicts in their administration line-up, not in their moderator staff. Of course, this doesn't mean recruiting the first high ranking idiot that comes across, but rather taking a courageous step to break the status quo and recruit key, relevant leaders in the multiplayer world.

[Togakure]

Hmm. There is something to be said about an administration that remains neutral and relatively uninvolved--or at least, uninfluenced to any great degree. Ahem ... we all know what can happen when administrators get carried away ... *cough*

You are rather audacious, Mr. Tera, lol. I like that.

Administration approves and maintains policy, but doesn't necessarily set it exclusively. I especially disklike the word "dictate." An admin who is good at what s/he does rarely has to dictate anything. The administration here has ever been open to suggestions and has accommodated many. That it has also been cautious of anything that even remotely threatens stability, security, and overall purpose of the board--which is not limited to MP--is understandable, expected, even. I'm not so sure forum administration and community leadership should be one in the same. Division/balance of power can be a very good thing.

True leadership requires no title, no appointed power. MagyarKhan didn't achieve the level of influence he has because he ran a board or a clan--he became a clan leader because he is a leader, demonstrated by his skill in game, and his ability to attract and retain the respect and loyalty of others. Though he's arguably the most well-known leader in the MP community of old, he isn't the only one. There were many others like him, you, Tera, among them.

I agree that the community needs some 100% crazy MP fanatics to lead, motivate, plan, organize, control and execute. I believe that, if the MP game is good, these will arise as a matter of course. They'll use the Org as a resource as they see fit--or not. They have options now that they didn't have back in the day. What happened before that led to the creation of the .NET was unfortunate, but I don't think the blame lies on either side. Both have responsibility. If anything, we should learn from that whole scene and not let it happen again. Both the community leaders and the administration here have a stake in that. Build consensus, be willing to compromise. Don't cross those arms and jut that chin; don't run off and reinvent the wheel. Work together.

But let's not re-open that coffin too far (Krast might pop out). My point is, I believe community leadership and forum administration are two different things that might very well be better kept separate. As long as the administration here is supportive of reasonable initiatives brought up by community leaders, it should be fine.

[Tera]

Good one Toga :-) Perhaps I was a little too extreme in the choice of words. However, the gist of the argument is that The Org must work hard to build strong bridges with the MP community, and for that to happen, the website needs the proper tools, including human resources.

I wish to branch the discussion in a new direction: We're attracting all the oldies, but where are the new people who are excited about STW2? This forum is a tomb compared to the activity brewing at TWCenter in the STW2 forums. What's the story about that?

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Call me a fanatic, but I believe this for the past 6 years 3 months now. I always thought MP players should run their own stuff on forums as Moderators/Admins. Call me a 19 century militaristic Prussian, but as much as I enjoy and respect our SP crew, I just think MP players are better at handing their own problems since they can relate to it.

[vartan]

As someone without S:TW experience or any Shogun history knowledge, I'll keep my post simple as I can. Tera's posts, starting with #10 in this thread, hit the nail on its head. It all boils down to the distinction of the various roles, from players all the way up to mods and admins. Probably more important, even than that, would be the attraction. Why do some people buy a specific newspaper of their liking every day? They go there to read those headlines, to find those interesting stories. These daily (or other frequency) ticks are what would solidify the Guild (or the 'Org') as the place to go for the multiplayer community (at least for S2:TW, to be specific).

Call me a fanatic, but I believe this for the past 6 years 3 months now. I always thought MP players should run their own stuff on forums as Moderators/Admins. Call me a 19 century militaristic Prussian, but as much as I enjoy and respect our SP crew, I just think MP players are better at handing their own problems since they can relate to it.

AKWC88, you know what I'm thinking. Although, I'm more for an integration of SP and MP, a hybridisation, an interweaving, not a segregation (of course SP and MP need separate forum sections, I am referring to another sense of community). And another contrast, AKWC88, also falls back onto what Tera has mentioned. That is, roles need not be vague but specific in their descriptions. The player should be one thing, the mod another, yet the admin another. The mod/admin would almost necessarily be one who has plenty experience in the field, though, of battles, tournaments, and so on. Even some web management would be handy (case in point). In any case, good luck to the S2:TW community, including SP and MP.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

As someone without S:TW experience or any Shogun history knowledge, I'll keep my post simple as I can. Tera's posts, starting with #10 in this thread, hit the nail on its head. It all boils down to the distinction of the various roles, from players all the way up to mods and admins. Probably more important, even than that, would be the attraction. Why do some people buy a specific newspaper of their liking every day? They go there to read those headlines, to find those interesting stories. These daily (or other frequency) ticks are what would solidify the Guild (or the 'Org') as the place to go for the multiplayer community (at least for S2:TW, to be specific).

AKWC88, you know what I'm thinking. Although, I'm more for an integration of SP and MP, a hybridisation, an interweaving, not a segregation (of course SP and MP need separate forum sections, I am referring to another sense of community). And another contrast, AKWC88, also falls back onto what Tera has mentioned. That is, roles need not be vague but specific in their descriptions. The player should be one thing, the mod another, yet the admin another. The mod/admin would almost necessarily be one who has plenty experience in the field, though, of battles, tournaments, and so on. Even some web management would be handy (case in point). In any case, good luck to the S2:TW community, including SP and MP.

We need to make sure new people want to come here. I know that the CCS players hate .Org for several reasons, one being the s-called elitist attitude here. One vet needs to make sure he/she does not act arrogant with new players or that will drive them off.

[AMP]

The elitist attitude here is nothing compared to other gaming forums that I've been to. I haven't seen vets rip apart new players here like I have at other places... then again I don't read every post here, so I wouldn't know, but I haven't seen anything horrid yet. :)

[Togakure]

Good one Toga :-) Perhaps I was a little too extreme in the choice of words. However, the gist of the argument is that The Org must work hard to build strong bridges with the MP community, and for that to happen, the website needs the proper tools, including human resources.

I wish to branch the discussion in a new direction: We're attracting all the oldies, but where are the new people who are excited about STW2? This forum is a tomb compared to the activity brewing at TWCenter in the STW2 forums. What's the story about that?

I need to go over to the TWC and observe at length. When I went there some years ago I disliked it intensely, but I imagine much has changed since then. Are there a lot of MP enthusiasts over there? Does the TWC show enthusiastic support of their MP community? Do they have consistent recognizable community leaders like we do/did?

I'd never thought that the Junior Membership process might be somewhat of a roadblock until others criticized it here recently. I haven't really considered the implications of it but obviously others here have. That's something that should be looked at if it is having a negative effect on getting new people in here.

Regarding attracting new peeps: I remember vividly when I was new to MP, here and in the STW foyer. "Vets" and clannies can be rather intimidating to newbs, particularly when they're together in their social groups. I think many took pleasure in making newbs feel small and stupid. Even now, "oldies" still cling together, give each other shout-outs and pats on the back--while pretty much ignoring unknowns and SPers, etc.. I don't think any disrespect or exclusion is intended--but it happens anyway sometimes. We all know how cliques work, how they can effect others on the "outside." So, what will we do to balance that out? Org staffers make it a point to welcome newcomers directly--this is a good start. "Vets" would do well to do the same. Their acknowledgments carry a lot of weight ....

I think many SPers who might be quite good at MP avoid it because they are somewhat intimidated by the veteran MPers and their cliques. This is sad. I was one of those, but found myself with an excess of time on my hands and decided to subdue my "fear" and try it out. Luckily, I found some cool guys (or they found me) who befriended me, showed me the basics and helped me acclimatize. A HUGE shout-out to them; they know who they are and epitomize what "honor" is in a gaming environment.

I guess my point is, veteran MPers can help attract new talent by openly welcoming new players and encouraging them to participate, being consistently friendly, being considerate of their ideas--even when we know what they are suggesting isn't practical--and actively including them in what we do. I tend to climb up on my pedestal and shout angrily on the subject of "elitism" when I see elitist behavior and structures that support it because it alienates. Everyone should be included and respected unless/until they demonstrate consistently that they are not worthy of that inclusion/respect. Such judgment should not be made flippantly. If a new player felt welcomed and respected--despite their lack of knowledge or experience--then I think more would be inclined to get involved. In time, they too will become knowledgeable and experienced, and we all stand to benefit from their shared insights.

This doesn't mean we have to be weak and accommodating when evaluating skills and training newcomers on the battlefield. That is a separate matter. The cub-to-adult process is brilliant and has produced some fantastic players who wouldn't be as good if they'd been coddled "politely." But community involvement is different. We would do well to distinguish between the two.

This is a good topic to focus on now, being that a community is people, and we would do well to increase our numbers and active involvement.

Rambling ... sorry. It is indeed good to talk about things MP with others who have a passion for MP.

[UglyElmo2]

My point is, I believe community leadership and forum administration are two different things that might very well be better kept separate. As long as the administration here is supportive of reasonable initiatives brought up by community leaders, it should be fine.

Ah I see where you are coming from now Togakure. :) In normal circumstances, I would agree, but given the .org's reputation concerning past events, I think there is going to have to be an olive branch thrown to the MP community, and having one or two moderators in the MP forum selected by the MP community itself would be a very good indicator of the .org's willingness to accept the MP community back. Otherwise, I fear the status quo will be maintained and the .org will remain just a fond memory to the MP community.

[Togakure]

Ah I see where you are coming from now Togakure. :) In normal circumstances, I would agree, but given the .org's reputation concerning past events, I think there is going to have to be an olive branch thrown to the MP community, and having one or two moderators in the MP forum selected by the MP community itself would be a very good indicator of the .org's willingness to accept the MP community back. Otherwise, I fear the status quo will be maintained and the .org will remain just a fond memory to the MP community.

I hear you, UglyElmo2. At the risk of sounding patronizing, I will say this: Often, to get, we must give. Often, to forget, we must forgive. Who will take the initiative? Who should doesn't matter ... who will?

With respect ....

[tibilicus]

Ah I see where you are coming from now Togakure. :) In normal circumstances, I would agree, but given the .org's reputation concerning past events, I think there is going to have to be an olive branch thrown to the MP community, and having one or two moderators in the MP forum selected by the MP community itself would be a very good indicator of the .org's willingness to accept the MP community back. Otherwise, I fear the status quo will be maintained and the .org will remain just a fond memory to the MP community.

This was done for M2TW I believe. Me and another person (the name slips me) were put forward to moderate the MP forum. Unfortunately, as total war history will tell us, M2TW was a bit of a let down and within a couple of months the forum was practically dead. If I remember correctly, the other nominated mod didn't actually turn up for work and I was kicked from the role due to a couple of months of inactivity without so much as a PM. Fair enough I was inactive, but it's not like there was a heavy flow of posts which needed to be moderated..

Anyway, back on topic, the one down side with such a nominated moderator system is that certain people from certain bits of the community would generally be put forward as names to moderate. Much then depends on how big the game is and how big the community is here. If we assume the community will be us plus a few others, then a nomination system would work fine. If it is bigger than we anticipate however, nominating moderators can often lead to cries of there being some sort of insiders "clique". It's kind of hard to explain but there was a debate in the watchtower a couple of months back where some people suggested the .org itself was a big "clique". This is of course a subjective observation and one I disagree with but it's also one some people perceive as accurate. Some people might be put of by this image of an inclusive .org clique but equally others might see it as attractive.

I do however generally agree with such an idea but I just thought it would be best to show the other side of the coin so that if such a thing comes about, it can be implemented correctly.

[Gregoshi]

Good discussion so far. Lots of good points to discuss and consider, both from the Org side and community side.

I have been pleasantly surprised at all the discussions that have popped up in the new forum. Comparatively speaking, the Dojo II has turned into a desert since this forum came to be. However, I too have noticed it is pretty much a retired veterans' club - where are the new clans? If we want this to become the focal point for S2TW MP, we must all become ambassadors. If you hear mention of new/unknown clans talking about S2TW, take it upon yourself to find them and engage them in discussion via email, chat, their clan forums, etc and invite them to join the discussions here. Welcoming of new players or new clans is a must if we want to grow the MP community. We will also have to be careful and not ram the "STW MP was soooo much better than the crap MP the TW series has now" attitude down the newer players' throats - the bitter old man syndrome if you will.

And as for moderation of MP forum(s), I recognize I am not well suited to moderating such forums and have said so to the Org staff. I volunteered to help moderate this forum with Kage for the time being in these early stages of the game's development until better and more suitable moderators are assigned.

[UglyElmo2]

Don't get me wrong Gregoshi: I think you are very capable of moderating the MP forum. :) You have the personality for it, as well as Kage. The reason I stated the .org may want to have the MP community vote for the moderators in this new section, is to disprove what Tibiculus stated as a perceive clique. Though, I also understand Tibiculus' thoughts about how the voting could also be perceived in such a manner. It's quite a conundrum. :)

I think the first step which needs to be taken is opening up this section of the forum to new patrons without them having to go through the introduction/waiting period. Otherwise, I think you will find people will not be willing to join here. This is probably the main reason some people feel the .org is a clique and not an open forum.

[Kocmoc]

Since many speak about the past. The current situation, as far i can see, was caused by the general opinion of how this game has to played - SP.
I remember endless discussion about this matter and it was always the same, this of course did lead to the situation, no Tourneys, hardly some clear positioning.

Newer clans are not here, as far i can see, without them this cant/wont work. How to suddenly attract those player?
If i see Gregoshi ask where are the new clans are, i ask myself, why the ORG took that way?
I remember the "NET" times, people always since then wanted more room for the MP part of the game, but the ORG didnt deliver!

We become older, Im sure, that many of the old guys are more than willing to help to build something up here.

A good point came up with some good player becoming a moderator here, this is more than needed. It was always a big problem to argue with moderators here who maybe played a bit online, but was far away from being a real good player. I made a post about what i expect from the ORG concerning tourneys. As i dont know how other guys organize there tourneys, i guess that the current hosts still face the same old problems, at least i didnt found a tool on steam to help organize a tourney.

I brought up this tool and want to mention it once again.

You all surely saw the "Table" of the football WM, there you always see this windows where the names of the Teams are written in. The amount thins out more and more and in the end you see just 2 windows which remain the last 2 teams. (I hope that is good explained from me...). This tool i expect here at the ORG. Its pretty easy to work with, in the first line you enter all the names of the player who want to take part, this can be done by the organizer or the player itself.

Now the easy part, which usually takes ages to actualize, after the 2 player played their game, the winner (actual he is the guy who has still interest) come here and write his name in the "second line", if the loser found that the winner did cheat or whatever he can speak to the moderater od the tourney.
This tool would speed a tourney up like hell, my tourney back in mtw was 200+ player strong and we did need 4 weeks to finish it - here you found the tourney - www.kocmoc.de

You could play surely 5-6 games in one day, assuming that a game takes 1h, that would be 32 or 64 player.


That tool is just an example of what could be done. Also i have never used Steam before, so im not the guy who could say something about it, what i saw was an extra unit you can get,
if you join a certain TW group on Steam. If this is possible, why the ORG with the help of CA doesnt get a deal done with Steam?

Replay´s. If i did learn something in another game, than that the people love spectating, they love to watch the better player playing a battle.
The Org should install ( right now, you dont need to wait for Shogun2) a site here, where player can upload their games.
We also could stream tourney fights, the software is out and easy to use. It needs to get promoted.

If shogun2 will really hold what CA actual promise, than we will see tons of new player and the young people today love watching. I know some use youtube, other have their own sites...
Org need the traffic and the space to host this, if the ORG cant deliver it, you can use Youtube and kinds implement it here, so it look nice at least.

I doubt that this place has any trouble to be a big meeting point, especially as the old clans, if they really come back, will rule it. This is the big advance.
You got all the big player still, now you can mix up some old memories, i know that Mag still has the 3v3 Allstart replay, of AMP, Mag and me. This are memories, get something from the old spirits in here.

The mob always runs to the winner, if the ORG contains almost all the winner, the sheeps will follow.
This said, hold the hands of the top oldtimer a bit and you already won.

Without knowing what CA is planning, i personal would create an official playernote, which contains personal infos, but also a lot of statistics.
This infos can be used to get a quick look at the player, since there are Steam achievements, why not give some more? Won a tourney, won two tourneys... and so on, more MP marks.

If i met a player online id like to know, how many percent of his games hes winning, which maps he mostly play on, he defend? He use art?
How long his battles last average?

What about the old Clanwar belt? or other longrun "tourneys", we always made it ourself, there was no help from the ORG or other places, there could be each weekend the fight for the belt.
It has to get organised, it needs preparation. If help is needed im more than willing to support and help where i can.

I have endless ideas, this just would take too long now to bring em all up.

Koc


edit: In another tread we spoke about communication. I saw, that Steam offer some kind of Team Speak.
What about, if the ORG would host a TS3 server? Im not sure, how good the Steam TS is, i just know that TS3 cause some very small extra latency, which is more than important these days.

Within the "ORG-TS" you could give each Clan who register at the ORG their own clanchannel.


What about different languages? While it might be a problem in the first place, there could be a some room for different languages, i give you the german elite clan and the spanish celtiberos.
Both got many players at those times and with more player becoming active in MP, the different languages could be interesting.
Why not offer player who lack english skills, like me, some space to get help in their own languages?
Some basics maybe, some help, i personal would like to help german players, other might want to help people from their country as well.

If the ORG runs tourneys, it would be more than helpful to write the rules not only in english, just one example.

[drone]

I think the first step which needs to be taken is opening up this section of the forum to new patrons without them having to go through the introduction/waiting period. Otherwise, I think you will find people will not be willing to join here. This is probably the main reason some people feel the .org is a clique and not an open forum.

Just a quick point. A while back (a couple of years ago?), the Junior Members were given access to most of the forum, and not kept confined to the Entrance Hall. If I'm not mistaken, they have access to all game-related sub-forums. They still can't edit posts, and might have some other restrictions, but they can take part in the game discussions as soon as they join up.

[Sp00n]

Good discussion so far. Lots of good points to discuss and consider, both from the Org side and community side.

I have been pleasantly surprised at all the discussions that have popped up in the new forum. Comparatively speaking, the Dojo II has turned into a desert since this forum came to be. However, I too have noticed it is pretty much a retired veterans' club - where are the new clans? If we want this to become the focal point for S2TW MP, we must all become ambassadors. If you hear mention of new/unknown clans talking about S2TW, take it upon yourself to find them and engage them in discussion via email, chat, their clan forums, etc and invite them to join the discussions here. Welcoming of new players or new clans is a must if we want to grow the MP community. We will also have to be careful and not ram the "STW MP was soooo much better than the crap MP the TW series has now" attitude down the newer players' throats - the bitter old man syndrome if you will.

And as for moderation of MP forum(s), I recognize I am not well suited to moderating such forums and have said so to the Org staff. I volunteered to help moderate this forum with Kage for the time being in these early stages of the game's development until better and more suitable moderators are assigned.

Its early days we have no details on MP and I think the pair of you have done a fine job so far, basically atm all we can do is throw around ideas, I do think the number 1 priority in this time should be to get theorg promoted more hopefully by getting some sort of tie in with CA TW site and or steam.
Has gone very quite here again since since the initial Shogun annoucement apart from the handful of old vets still posting.

[Magyar Khan]

I dont think clanleaders should be a moderator per say.... from what i see now the org mods do fine as long they stick to moderating, watching and reminding people to stay within some area..... I dont think it will be a good idea to make a clanleader a moderator here..... perhaps it would be better if the mods are not that much invloved in everything but i can imagine that they have close lines to the clanleaders or such.... but it should not be excaggerated.... if a mods role gets too important he may be on the wrong course anyway....

A like the idea of a place to upload replays.... where people can discuss them and rate them like in warcraft3 http://tft.replayers.com
I play warcraft myself and somethimes its nice to observe while im working or eating.... :o)

A different clan forum would be handy where rules are obeyed..... and a Warzone would be handy for all nasty stuff.... perhaps passworded to keep the accidential visitor out.... a simple pass but a pass...

What would be of very big help is that the org supports the members major voice when it comes to wishlists and patching.... this is what i missed many years ago... ofcourse much is debatable concerning this subject but its a challenge to try this time....

[Krasturak]

I need a technical guide to help me with the basics, such as: what is the current patch version? How do I join a multiplayer game? The basic stuff is not available, and this could be isolating the stuffy guys like me that can't figure it out for ourselves. Not much use to talk about tactics or fun tournaments or wahtever until I can get to play this.