ORG, TWC, and the Official Forum - what would the ORG specialize in?

[Axalon]

Alright Andres, I'll reply to your post in bit and pieces over multiple posts and work my self down on it whenever I might have some comments for it. So, first up...

About treating all games and their communities equal. Each and every single TW game has their own subfora already.

That is not true... CA's NTW has no own section/sub-fora at the ORG (whatever you want to call it). It is all bunched up with ETW. If NTW had it's own section, your claim would be true. As it has not, your claim falls apart.

Personally, I don't give a flying rats ass about NTW - never even bothered with it. However, I can look beyond myself and at the bigger picture here - and then it certainly does have a strong symbolical importance. If all ALL released TW-PC-games were to have each a section as per game. The ORG will then at least have a rhetorical ace that no other fan-forum can counter or compete with. "We seriously deal with all TW, not just with some TW". Namely, "one game, one section - we treat every game seriously enough to have that".... Get my drift? If you ask me, it's worthwhile to do it just to be able to say that - and it might even convince some NTW-fan or two to sign up here as well - and I fail to see the harm in that. You could use the same personnel as now, if that works fine as it is? Their responsibilities would probably be the about the same even if it in a strictly formal sense it would be "doubled" due to another TW-section.

Personally, I always valued the ORG due to its egalitarian tendencies towards TW, to me that is a major strength of this place - as no such tendencies are truly found and practiced elsewhere (so far, that can change as well). ALL other fan sites bunches games together somehow or possibly fail to address some game(s) completely. Its a classic and standard mistake and I fail to see any good reason why the ORG should do it as well... And yet again lose another possible edge to other sites. Why?

Because the games are older, there's less activity, less members.

I agree. However a heavier focus on mods may very well slow that process down significantly - hell even reverse it somewhat. It has happened before (in other games), and I think it can again - if we work on it. MTW2 is still the biggest TW over at the TWC and its hardly because the original game is exceptional somehow - it's because of the mods for it. I do suggest that we should at least try to consider ways to retain and activate the remaining existing "regular" members of section X. Instead of just leaving it be. I think it is at least worth to consider, not just passively stand by and let it fade away - staff included, because this is not solely the members responsibility - it is the staffs as well. I think TinCow is right, in the way that a few regular posts here and there on your "fave game" could do "plenty of bang" in relation to the actual effort. I think it is well worth a try, I mean what do we have to lose by trying it? About zero it seems?

The resources are here for everybody. But except for the EB fora, where there are regular screenshot contests and other activities, there aren't many people around asking for our resources.

Oh... That does set things in a different light, doesn't it? Well, at least we should try to consider ways to change that reality, no? I'll be happy to use some resources, I'll just have to find ways in which it is warranted to do so.


As for the branches of staff...

I have no objections to that outlined model, it looks good in general. My gripe is basically that the content-branch don't seem to operate beyond STW2 (do they at all?) - which I believe they should. There are 5-6(?) of these guys and I have yet to see them post or show any sort of presence in the MTW1 section for instance (this since the branch was set up). They should search for news, content and stuff in every TW-section to promote, and I can pretty much guarantee that they will be able to find something somewhere because of it. The one-sided focus on STW2 does not cut it. It is a poor implementation of an otherwise good idea, the practice should be changed as to include ALL TW and what goes on here and not just for STW2. That's, essentially my criticism here.

I'll use my own stuff as an example to prove my point. Now, I seriously doubt that had I not posted up my notes on the front-page myself - the content-branch would have missed it completely that I had a major release in April 2012. I mean, this is a grand-scale mod - some 7000+ files strong (this in total, the mod as such is about 6800 files, latest version). Hell even the folks over at the TWC realize that such stuff is news and so that stuff has been reported on - several times - in their publications over the years and it will probably be so again some day, over there. That's the TWC... The place that usually don't give a damn about MTW1 or STW1 essentially... Here, at the ORG however, no such thing has ever been attempted - even once - this since the content-branch was first created and I have now had 4 major releases since then. So, is it fair to say that the content-branch could do a better job? I think it is very reasonable to say so... Because if they are able to miss something like that - god knows what else they have missed around here that is not STW2. Get my drift?

As I understand things, it should not have been me that posted the existing notes on my stuff, it should have been them... I mean, it certainly strikes me as something that falls under aspect of, and I quote "maintain and promote content". Or did I get that declaration completely wrong somehow?

The ORG needs to take better care of the mods and stuff it actually has and make sure that the people that really do provide actual "content" here on their own (modders etc.) can feel recognized and supported here by staff. Not by some pretty words, but by active and regular action, hell even a post or two to show for it (not just to the modders, but to the rest of the world as well).... If you pull that off and do it seriously - and regularly - then you will eventually have more modders that feels it might just be worthwhile to start operate here and that will clearly work beneficial for the site. More modders and mods = more traffic. Just saying...

I'll do more comments later on...

- A

[Axalon]

As for post: 149-151....

If people want to question or disagree with my post:148 , at least read it (properly) first. After having done that, you can disagree with everything in it as much as you want. Preferably, by providing some solid reasons for it.

- A

[a completely inoffensive name]

As for post: 149-151....

If people want to question or disagree with my post:148 , at least read it (properly) first. After having done that, you can disagree with everything in it as much as you want. Preferably, by providing some solid reasons for it.

- A

I did read it. And I still think it is a whole lot of words that ultimately say nothing relevant.

[Maltz]

If people want to question or disagree with my post:148 , at least read it (properly) first.

I am actually in full support of... "self support". If contributors feel that they have done a great work, they should actively seek ways to promote their babies and not wait for the moderators to be englightened. Different moderators have different areas of interests, and it is very easy for a moderator to completely ignore an unfamiliar area simply because they cannot easily tell exceptional from average. And the contributors are fully justified to request the promotion of their works.

Modding is certainly an important area of modern games and should receive significant attention. I personally do not use mods for STW2 because I feel there are already enough vanilla contents, but I know many others will immediately apply mods without playing vanilla.

Yet currently the TWC modding community has been significantly developed and I wonder whether it would be meaningful to set up just a mirror site in ORG. Here is a question for modding experts - is the TWC lacking in a particular modding area that we can fill? Or It might be hard to maintain a sustainable modding community in the ORG otherwise.

[Axalon]

Another post for you Andres, related to post:152....

I see the point of the focus being almost exclusively on the newest total war game. But isn't that normal? After all, there are already tons of informations and discussions about the older games. People looking for help and advice for an older game, will most likely find that information in an old thread. If people post about TW, what are they most likely going to post about? The new game of course. Because, well that's new There will be far more unanswered questions about the new game than about the old game. So if we want to attract new members (and every community needs a regular influx of new blood in order to survive), we need to give them as much useful information about the new game as possible. That's the carrot we need to hold in front of people to make them sign up.

I have zero problems following your logic. And plenty of it does makes excellent sense. However, that does not necessarily mean that I do come to the same conclusions as you do, or look at it in the same way. There are other aspects to it as well – that should at least be considered here. If we do that, things will get more complicated and problematic, or so I believe. I have already been pointing at this stuff and I will now do so again, but this time in more detail as to get the point across.

Now, Information is good stuff, hell its great stuff – but – it is also standard stuff. Essentially available and offered in every site somehow. Here is where “normal” works against us… Hoping to beat the competition and come out on top with that somehow strikes me as unrealistic, at best an unreliable strategy. If we look at the results so far this strategy has failed to deliver any promising results that actually warrants further confidence in it. So, the supposed carrot you speak of is practically available every forum that covers STW2 somehow. That’s one bit.

Then there is also the matter of the site “standing out in the crowd”, this strategy fails to do that as it does not truly offer something that enables that in the first place. At least if we look at this soberly, we can hardly expect that offering the same thing as everybody else is going to set us drastically apart somehow. Our carrot is essentially the same as any other available everywhere basically. That’s a second bit.

Then the factor of the casual gamers (which clearly will be the majority of potentials we are hoping for here, as we are dealing with the latest game. In effect STW2/FOTS, so far) and what we might realistically expect of them. In this strategy we are obviously focusing on the casual gamer, more then anything else. At best, they do sign up, they do their utterly self-serving posts and then they will disappear once they have no further need for us - very possibly forever. They simply don’t give a rat’s ass about this site or the people that frequent this place. I think it is naïve to deny that. We essentially have no reason what so ever to assume anything other then a strikingly small minority will actually break that pattern and do stick around – long term. The track record obviously supports this conclusion as well. So, we are essentially waving the carrot to the wrong crowd. That’s a third bit.

The effort and focus on this strategy, is hardly properly motivated either as it is not a very effective in actually generating that new blood – this in large part due to the third bit. Again the track record is rather clear about that. Plenty of energy and attention must be invested to cater these STW2-arrivals making sure they have that information that you are talking about. The effort of holding that carrot does not stand in reasonable proportion to the actual gains of holding it up there. That’s a fourth bit.

Then there is the aspect of this strategy failing to recognize that the TW-community is not one but several communities. Now, while the focus is steadily fixed on catering the “STW2”-folk we simply lack a serious “plan-B” that addresses the very real possibility that we are actually missing out on potentially very promising candidates that play something else then STW2. People who are unlikely to be casual gamers but truly hooked on TW somehow. The people we actually want here as they are clearly more likely to stick around – if we provide them a reason(s) to do so. This regardless the game, it might be ETW or whatever. The circumstance is the same regardless. We have no true plan how to somehow convince them to actually sign up – but more importantly – to stick around if they do sign up. So, in effect the people that we should be waving that carrot in-front of is basically ignored. That’s a fifth bit.

The point should be clear enough at this stage...


Conclusions...

This strategy and the high hopes on it are bad news once we also consider these five aspects. Looking at things in this way, does raise a lot of warranted questions about it and its continued practice. This strategy is then essentially a “wild-card” and it has so far failed to properly deliver that “magic” influx of new blood that all TW-communities of this site need to get vital again. Just leaving all the other games/communities to tend for themselves in favor of STW2 and hope for the best is not a healthy nor viable strategy – long term. This has been conducted for over a year now – ever since STW2 was released…

To me it is obvious; this is not good for the site or for any of its several communities – save STW2 perhaps (short term) – this utterly regardless how “normal” things may seem or might be. It has failed to produce any promising results and this site gets weaker because of it. Act accordingly. Devise another and new strategy, a better one, more diverse, more reliable, more efficient, more distinctive and above all more successful one. At least try to set up a contingency-plan to patch up and cover the worst flaws of this current strategy somehow. That ultimately means that the solid fixation on STW2 will have to give way to something else. We can not solely rely on selling “carrots” in this context, we need “apples”, “oranges” and what have you – stuff that is rare and not available elsewhere. Stuff that makes this place distinctive, attractive and stand out. To increase our chances at this we should also be aiming for more people then just the casual gamers of STW2. We must plan for and target other and more promising “customers” of TW.

The work of establishing information for STW2 can and indeed should continue (I am all for that) - but - the hard focus and all the high hopes on that should cease (because that I do question, due to outlined reasons above). Re-examine your strategy, make a new and better one, a less destructive one, a more realistic and reliable one. That is basically what I am trying to convey here.

...

I understand your point of keeping the fire burning in dying fora, but there's only so much staff can do. We don't have an infinite amount of logs to throw on the fire; if most of the time, it are our logs that are needed to throw on the fire and all too seldom somebody else throws his own log, it won't work, imo.

Alright, I believe you. Now, do you have a better suggestion? Because doing nothing at all is hardly a strategy, now is it? We have too at least try to do something... I don’t have any statistics on each section but it would be very interesting to see such data – instead of just doing some wild guesses on which TW-section "seems" to receive the most/least traffic and visits, most/least activity etc. etc. After that, we would have some solid basis on which sections actually are worse off then others – and get clear understanding of what we are really dealing with and where... Just leave it be in favor the latest game, is no plan and it will obviously not magically fix it self somehow.

Ok, I'll do more comments later...

- A

[Axalon]

Hello Phill,

Correct me if I am wrong, but this can be reduced to a problem of manpower, right? Provided that content-branch get enough manpower, are you and I still going to have difference in opinions here? Roughly speaking?

If so, let me know... Now, if everything boils down to manpower. Maybe your branch should re-examine the requirements for becoming part of that staff? Making it a little easier to qualify or something? That might open up a few more possibilities for you guys. I don't have the details, you do, so I can't give any direct suggestions and ideas even if I wanted too. Obviously, it has to be a priority 1 for you guys to get that manpower...

If you have contributed something worthwhile or have seen such a contribution by another member, just PM me or Graphic or Voigtkampf. We'll gladly put it in the spotlight.

You bet. I'll do it until the manpower-issue is resolved (obviously I can do it afterwards as well, but then I will not do so actively) - then your people can take over and basically do it. I have already established contact with the "bladerunner" (VK), if that fails I'll go to the "peasantry" (you). Anyways, I already have my duties as a local moderator and so this will still be your operation and responsibility, but I'll help in the way I can...

- A

[Axalon]

Hello Maltz, some comments for you (as to post:158)...

I am actually in full support of... "self support".

Great, lets try to make more people join that movement/notion then...

... and not wait for the moderators to be englightened. Different moderators have different areas of interests, and it is very easy for a moderator to completely ignore an unfamiliar area simply because they cannot easily tell exceptional from average.

If that really is the case, I would think it is warranted to raise the question if that moderator is actually suitable for the job and especially the area assigned to him/her. I would argue that another additional moderator or assisstant moderator would be preferable (if possible) as to cover the area in question (whatever it might be) as thoroughly as possible - as I think that would be desirable somehow. At least the flaw would be better covered and countered that way.

because they [the moderators] cannot easily tell exceptional from average.

If they lack the skills required, they should contact and consult an expert in the field as to treat whatever X as seriously and fairly as possible. I think anybody who has clearly worked hard deserves that much at least. Hard work is hard work, and should be treated with enough respect to get that courtesy...

Yet currently the TWC modding community has been significantly developed and I wonder whether it would be meaningful to set up just a mirror site in ORG. Here is a question for modding experts - is the TWC lacking in a particular modding area that we can fill? Or It might be hard to maintain a sustainable modding community in the ORG otherwise.

If the ORG does not seriously try to get modders to operate here - you can kiss this site goodbye straight up. I'm not joking here, that's more or less a fact. Why? Because the original game is static, it can not sustain any community anywhere long term, that is the "why" for you right there... The ORG will never be something more then an ever shrinking shadow of past glory days until it is finally abandoned utterly. This is hardly up for debate, as there is no true alternative here, the question is how shall we get the modders to operate here, and in what numbers, and in what games because they must operate here in order for this site to survive at all. Having said that...

The TWC did not get there in one day - they worked for it, hard and seriously. They invested in their modders, they more or less focused on their modders. More so then this site probably ever have. And another thing, they did not consider what the ORG was up to either as they did it - they did their own thing totally regardless. That is exactly what the ORG need to do as well. It is a non-factor if the TWC has the same thing or not. Why? Because it is utterly ridiculous to even try designing the ORG after what the TWC do have and have not. The ORG is an individual entity, not a copy or a twin. These two sites are not "sister-sites", they are two sites who share the supposed to focus on TW somehow.

The TWC is in large part successful because it has fully realized the importance of modders and mods and they have acted accordingly and this seriously while the ORG basically and stubbornly held on to its focus on the static original games and have suffered because of it. The TWC don't give rats ass if you are "mature and superior" as long as you follow the their TOS, they have realized in contrast to many people here that they can not afford such blatant chauvinism and have acted accordingly. Obviously, I simply here, but there is probably plenty of truth in it still.

Overall, my impression is that the TWC deal with mods better and more seriously then the ORG does (considering current realities, it is pretty much a matter of fact). The TWC have also such things much more standardized, more formalized and a more solid infrastructure for all that in place. It has more manpower to actively deal with, and maintain, all that somehow. Now, does that still mean that the ORG can not have the same thing or be even better somehow at some point? Of course not! It is a matter of planning, strategy, determination, actual practices and manpower. If we lack some of that we must compensate somehow, do the things we can do and do them well - ever trying to be better then the competition. Otherwise it is essentially "game over".

That is how we should approach these things, or so I believe.

- A

[Maltz]

Axalon: As has been pointed out, forum moderators are hard to find and they tend to burn out quickly. People such as myself tend to go to the next game, once they think they have finished all that's interesting in this game. But forum moderators have to stay around and fulfill their duties. In my opinion, they should be paid to do these as it could be as repetitive, boring, frustrating, demoralizing, and mind-numbing as most day-time jobs.

If I find a certain forum moderator is mean, ignorant, or incompetent, I simply migrate to another forum of a similar subject. If I really love a forum think it deserves a better moderator, I apply to become one for them and hopefully make a difference. Maybe you can discuss with the ORG staff and revolutionize how the ORG handles the modding section? I am more of a no-mod hardcore single-player strategy person, so I will contribute on my area, too, by keep posting some (hopefully) good stuff.

I think many of us who participate in this thread wants to see the ORG improve. I am optimistic enough that something good is going to happen down the road.

[TinCow]

If the ORG does not seriously try to get modders to operate here - you can kiss this site goodbye straight up. I'm not joking here, that's more or less a fact. Why? Because the original game is static, it can not sustain any community anywhere long term, that is the "why" for you right there... The ORG will never be something more then an ever shrinking shadow of past glory days until it is finally abandoned utterly. This is hardly up for debate, as there is no true alternative here, the question is how shall we get the modders to operate here, and in what numbers, and in what games because they must operate here in order for this site to survive at all. Having said that...

The staff are broadly in agreement with you about this, but we're unsure of exactly what we can do to reverse the situation. The organization of the modding sections of the forum is one of the major topics we are discussing now as part of the proposed structural reorganization, but that alone won't do anything. We are, quite frankly, massively blind on the modding sector because we have no one on-staff who is heavily involved in that community. We've tried to rectify this, but have so far been unsuccessful. This has seriously hampered the various efforts we have made over the past year to make the Org a more mod-friendly place. Several months ago, I personally tried to assemble a modding toolkit; essentially, a pack of utilities and files that would be useful to modders for each of the various TW games. The idea was that anyone could download a single compressed file and get all of the important modding tools without having to search for them. The problem I ran into is that I don't know anything about modding. I pulled out every single modding file hosted on the Org, and realized that I have no idea what 90% of them do, let alone whether they are the best tool for that job, or even the most up to date. The fact is, we need help from the modders themselves to do a lot of the more intricate things that would make the Org more modding friendly. We have a lot of resources at our disposal that we can open up to the modders, but we don't know how to use them in an effective way. What can we do to get modders to help us with actual improvements?

[Andres]

Alright, I believe you. Now, do you have a better suggestion? Because doing nothing at all is hardly a strategy, now is it? We have too at least try to do something... I don’t have any statistics on each section but it would be very interesting to see such data – instead of just doing some wild guesses on which TW-section "seems" to receive the most/least traffic and visits, most/least activity etc. etc. After that, we would have some solid basis on which sections actually are worse off then others – and get clear understanding of what we are really dealing with and where... Just leave it be in favor the latest game, is no plan and it will obviously not magically fix it self somehow.

Ok, I'll do more comments later...

- A

I believe we tried to get such data in the past, but it was not possible to have them generated by the forum software we use, I think.

@TinCow or @Husar can correct me if I'm wrong or if there has something changed since the last attempt to get those data.

I see your point of too much focus on the new game. It's good food for thought. Thanks for the excellent feedback

[Peasant Phill]

...As for the branches of staff...

I have no objections to that outlined model, it looks good in general. My gripe is basically that the content-branch don't seem to operate beyond STW2 (do they at all?) - which I believe they should. There are 5-6(?) of these guys and I have yet to see them post or show any sort of presence in the MTW1 section for instance (this since the branch was set up). They should search for news, content and stuff in every TW-section to promote, and I can pretty much guarantee that they will be able to find something somewhere because of it. The one-sided focus on STW2 does not cut it. It is a poor implementation of an otherwise good idea, the practice should be changed as to include ALL TW and what goes on here and not just for STW2. That's, essentially my criticism here.

I'll use my own stuff as an example to prove my point. Now, I seriously doubt that had I not posted up my notes on the front-page myself - the content-branch would have missed it completely that I had a major release in April 2012. I mean, this is a grand-scale mod - some 7000+ files strong (this in total, the mod as such is about 6800 files, latest version). Hell even the folks over at the TWC realize that such stuff is news and so that stuff has been reported on - several times - in their publications over the years and it will probably be so again some day, over there. That's the TWC... The place that usually don't give a damn about MTW1 or STW1 essentially... Here, at the ORG however, no such thing has ever been attempted - even once - this since the content-branch was first created and I have now had 4 major releases since then. So, is it fair to say that the content-branch could do a better job? I think it is very reasonable to say so... Because if they are able to miss something like that - god knows what else they have missed around here that is not STW2. Get my drift?

As I understand things, it should not have been me that posted the existing notes on my stuff, it should have been them... I mean, it certainly strikes me as something that falls under aspect of, and I quote "maintain and promote content". Or did I get that declaration completely wrong somehow?

The ORG needs to take better care of the mods and stuff it actually has and make sure that the people that really do provide actual "content" here on their own (modders etc.) can feel recognized and supported here by staff. Not by some pretty words, but by active and regular action, hell even a post or two to show for it (not just to the modders, but to the rest of the world as well).... If you pull that off and do it seriously - and regularly - then you will eventually have more modders that feels it might just be worthwhile to start operate here and that will clearly work beneficial for the site. More modders and mods = more traffic. Just saying...

I'll do more comments later on...

- A

Hi @Axalon, I appreciate your input. I'm not taking anything you say personal and anything I say shouldn't be viewed solely as a way to evade my respsonsabilities. Rather as an explenation of the current situation and a base from which suggestions can be brought forward.

As a CM I feel I must respond to your comments above. The content staff is rather small. There are 5 of us at the moment, I believe, 2 with an assigned task (throne room for example). That leaves 3 for the entire Org. Keeping that number up has been very dificult. CM's seem to burn out fast and new ones are hard to find.
I probably spent around 1,5 to 2 hours on the Org every day (with some exeptions of course) reading and posting in no less than 7 subfora (staff subfora included). That doesn't include small side tasks originating from being a CM. I can honestly say I can do no more (unles I get payed).
I'm sure great content is missed on a daily basis. At the moment it can't be helped. That's why the tools have been provided to post your own articles on the front page, to make your own blog on the Org. You say it's the job of a CM to find every worthwile contribution and put it in a spotlight. I say the possibility is here to put your contributions in the spotlight and the CM's are here to help if you would need it. If that makes me obselete in your eyes, I will gladly step down (I could do with a sabatical).

Concerning the so-called overemphasis on Shogun 2, I can say that this is a deliberate strategy. New TW titles bring in new members. As staff (certainly the CM's), we agreed that Shogun 2 and it's following games would get priority (together with one or two other subfora). It's only logical. I wish we had enough CM's (and time) to give every subforum equal attention but that just isn't the case.

So what to do about it?
One simple word: emancipation. The CM's can't be everywhere so you (every member) have to draw our attention. If you have contributed something worthwhile or have seen such a contribution by another member, just PM me or Graphic or Voigtkampf. We'll gladly put it in the spotlight.

Hope to have cleared a few things up.
PP