ORG, TWC, and the Official Forum - what would the ORG specialize in?

[Maltz]

Here is my first post as a senior member! (p.s. If you are older than 34 please feel free to slam me.)

As I skipped E:TW and N:TW due to school and career reasons, when I returned to patronize the ORG, I find that while there are still many enthusiastic and intelligent moderators and contributors, the once glorious anonymous flock that repeatedly bumped the hit count of significant posts to 4 or 5 digits have largely migrated to... our sworn enemy TWC!... I mean the very friendly and nice site TWC. (In my distant memory, ORG was a huge franchise while TWC was a small business.)

When I browse the TWC, I cannot help but notice also the great work of the people in charge. I am not saying they are better people - just more people. I also noticed an especially large modding community. However, as population increase, you can see ungrateful and uncivilized forum users... yes we will then blame their parents, blah blah. But contributors who like to increase their readership will think twice about where to go.

But of course there is the official forum on Steam. It definitely has the largest user base, but I can't call them fans. I only go there to complain about bugs and hope that CA people can see them more easily. But quality works gets instantly drowned out by "how do I play this game" type of questions.

I am no business person at all, but my instinct tells me that we ORG have to "brand" ourselves, so users have something in mind when they think of ORG. I am not saying we should go out and "compete" with TWC or others. We are not running for profit, right? So there is no point in that. But we just want something to... hm, define ourselves. For example, users would go to the official site to complain about bugs, to the TWC to look at mods, and to the ORG to...? A good starting point is frogbeastegg's great guide for STW2. Personally, when I get Shogun Total War 2, I would go to google and type "Shogun Total War 2 tips", "Shogun Total War 2 forum", and choose which forum to learn from and to patronize. If I want tips, I wish to see high-quality strategic articles and maybe video links for tactics. If I want to ask questions, I want to pick a place where there are friendly and knowledgable members who respond and discuss with maturity. (As a result GameFAQs is usually the last place I want to be.)

I wonder what do the managers have in mind? :) Just throwing out some ideas for now.

[rickinator9]

TWC seems much more serious. We play a lot of forum games like Mafia. I don't see that anywhere in the other forums.

[Beskar]

TWC seems much more serious. We play a lot of forum games like Mafia. I don't see that anywhere in the other forums.

TWC plays Mafia games as well.

[johnhughthom]

TWC plays Mafia games as well.

It's on life support though...

[Rhyfelwyr]

.org has mafia and more intellectual discussion. I think the average age of TWC posters in their political etc discussions is a fair bit lower.

[frogbeastegg]

If I want tips, I wish to see high-quality strategic articles and maybe video links for tactics. If I want to ask questions, I want to pick a place where there are friendly and knowledgable members who respond and discuss with maturity. (As a result GameFAQs is usually the last place I want to be.)

This is about right. We aim to be a friendly, mature community with as much helpful content as possible. Guides, research, strategy discussion threads, videos, and anything else which can be managed. We'd like any new player to be able to register and ask for help, and be certain of getting a pleasant reply. I believe that we have the infrastructure to support that, with our guides and research forums, media gallery, and image hosting capabilities. We will consider any suggestions people have as well, and will implement any which are practical. The question is always how we can support and encourage patrons who are likewise interested in this content, particularly those who are generous enough to spend time creating it.

We also want people to be able to discuss the games without the aggressive atmosphere which is frequently found on the internet. People should be able to say they like or dislike aspects of the game without fearing a horde of angry people telling them that they are, well let's politely say "stupid" and leave it at that. People do not need to post lengthy analysis of why they do or don't like the games - and nor do we want them to feel like they must! - but at the same time it's nice to be able to do that without getting people posting "TLDR lol" and nothing else. It's nice to post something and feel like readers will consider it, even if they totally disagree with the idea. Discussion is frustrating when you feel you are being dismissed after the first three words fail to agree with the reader's own ideas.

Away from our TW content, we like to keep that same atmosphere. Whatever people are interested in doing here, we'd like them to be able to do it without having someone screaming gamefaqs style abuse in their face. Again, we're open to any suggestions people have on what we can add or improve, or do to support patrons' own efforts.

I suppose you could consider us the friendly local pub to TWC's big night club and .com's on-site bar. Still alcohol, different clientele and decor.

[edyzmedieval]

Very well said Froggy.

I do miss the hustle and bustle of 2005/2006 Org a lot, but the quality of the posts is still high.

[caravel]

It's quantity vs quality... TWC's user base probably has a lower average age? The TW games, in my opinion only, since RTW have been squarely aimed at children and the "casual gamer" rather than the mature players who helped popularise the series and who populated this forum back in the day. The .org is obviously tailored towards an older audience and built up it's own unique user base over the years of the maturer player. In real terms this has resulted in a decline over the last few years.

My opinion is that the .org needs to continue to focus on the maturer player as TWC is already there for the kids...

[Maltz]

Indeed I absolutely salute the "Confusian Academy" (strategy articles) area of the ORG.

By the way, I have seen some methods in other forums to promote user participation.

(1) "Recommended" threads

The moderators have the authority to mark a thread as special (with a special icon). The forum can then display only the recommended threads. Alternatively, there can be a sticky list of all recommended post, organized by different categories.

This makes it easy to find good articles and discussions. The recommended threads can be further ranked by a few number of tiers (but personally I think it makes things unecessarily complicated). This is considered the highest status of a thread. All users have a "recommended thread" counter (if they are they original author) and a link to all their recommended thread in their personal profile for others to refer to. This also makes it easy for the moderators to reward the important contributors objectively.

(2) "Highlighted" threads

The moderators have the authority to give a thread's subject a different color or bold font. This makes the post easier to be noticed. But it does not carry the same weight as the recommended thread, as it might not be as important. But may be a good read for the moment (like an important news release from CA).

(3) Rating system

The power and responsibility goes to the users - the users can freely rate others' posts. The forum makes it possible to rank posts by their scores. I believe the users here are mature enough not to register 100 accounts to give their own posts good reviews.

Just some ideas...

[frogbeastegg]

Thread rating is already present. I think all account levels should have access. If you look at the top of a thread, there should be a button called "Rate thread" next to "View first unread" and "Thread tools". If it's not visible for normal users I'll ask a techie to check our settings. We've also got a "Thanks" system which allows users to mark posts they found particularly useful, and that should help to highlight them without going too bling-bling.

We'll need to see if suitable vbulletin mods are available for the other two suggestions. When we know what tech options are available, we can better look at whether we want to trial them on the site. It can be surprisingly hard to find suitable mods. There's a couple of very basic usability features I want which are impossible to get unless you use very old forum software.

[TinCow]

Thread rating is already present. I think all account levels should have access. If you look at the top of a thread, there should be a button called "Rate thread" next to "View first unread" and "Thread tools". If it's not visible for normal users I'll ask a techie to check our settings.

Thread rating is not enabled for non-staff.

[frogbeastegg]

Thread rating is not enabled for non-staff.

Well that was easy.

In that case, looks like there's one minor tweak which would need making. We don't want everyone able to rate a thread as "CA post present". To PM ...

[Tellos Athenaios]

By staff you mean forum staff plus local moderators, right?

[Hamata]

we also need to invite more people into the modding sections of the forums here rome total war mediveal 2 total war modding is practicly dead here except Eb and a few others

[edyzmedieval]

I would really like it if the Org would get more traffic and more posters would come in.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

If the Org is to surivie, it must be like TWC or the TWC forums. It must be bigger. At the moment, we have less users. We need more promotion and more bigger avatars. We need active forums.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Why should we make the .Org like other sites? If I wanted a website like the .com or TWC I would go there. I don't want another .com or TWC. If you want the .Org to be like those sites, just go to those sites.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

Why should we make the .Org like other sites? If I wanted a website like the .com or TWC I would go there. I don't want another .com or TWC. If you want the .Org to be like those sites, just go to those sites.

Well, there are less active forums here for one. Second, If the Org was a such a big business back then it's not anymore now. It's rather redundant and small. And to be honest, it should have some sort of big forums. Why, the TWC is massive now, releasing Napoleonic total war III. Whats with the org? Nothing.

[caravel]

If the Org is to surivie, it must be like TWC or the TWC forums.

Does the web have the need for two such forums as TWC...?

It must be bigger. At the moment, we have less users. We need more promotion and more bigger avatars. We need active forums.

Well, there are less active forums here for one. Second, If the Org was a such a big business back then it's not anymore now. It's rather redundant and small. And to be honest, it should have some sort of big forums.

Do you have a plan of action... something in the way of details for putting any of this into practice? "It must be this" and "we need that" is mere talk...

Why, the TWC is massive now, releasing Napoleonic total war III. Whats with the org? Nothing.

I don't want to bash TWC, I've not posted there much, but I've never had trouble with the staff, etc - but from my perspective it mostly caters to kids. The .org originated in a time when adults still played these games, both SP and MP, in rather significant numbers - before the days of steam, before the dark times, before Empire... I mean Medieval 2 ok Rome.

The .org could allow custom avatars, that wouldn't hurt anyone, but the .org has a "theme" and wants to stick to it. I don't agree with that, but taking the other side of the argument for a second - most of us knew and accepted that when we joined. Times have changed however and the .org probably does need to bow to pressure and consider allowing custom avatars in the near future (custom signatures seem to be allowed - I personally don't see the difference).

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

Does the web have the need for two such forums as TWC...?



Do you have a plan of action... something in the way of details for putting any of this into practice? "It must be this" and "we need that" is mere talk...


I don't want to bash TWC, I've not posted there much, but I've never had trouble with the staff, etc - but from my perspective it mostly caters to kids. The .org originated in a time when adults still played these games, both SP and MP, in rather significant numbers - before the days of steam, before the dark times, before Empire... I mean Medieval 2 ok Rome.

The .org could allow custom avatars, that wouldn't hurt anyone, but the .org has a "theme" and wants to stick to it. I don't agree with that, but taking the other side of the argument for a second - most of us knew and accepted that when we joined. Times have changed however and the .org probably does need to bow to pressure and consider allowing custom avatars in the near future (custom signatures seem to be allowed - I personally don't see the difference).

First, stop being rude with me. I did not talk to you in such a way and therefore demand an apology.

Do you have a plan of action... something in the way of details for putting any of this into practice? "It must be this" and "we need that" is mere talk...

If you disclaim my talk is mere rubbish, then I'm afraid what you're speaking is absolute crap.:) How would you bring this into practical theory? You're crazy, I can't go on the website and edit it! Do I have that power? No, the Mods have.

I don't want to bash TWC, I've not posted there much, but I've never had trouble with the staff, etc - but from my perspective it mostly caters to kids. The .org originated in a time when adults still played these games, both SP and MP, in rather significant numbers - before the days of steam, before the dark times, before Empire... I mean Medieval 2 ok Rome.

There is a strict policy of respect. You're disrespecting that. You're saying ''kids''. Well, Adults should not feel it that way. If kids like it, let them like it. It seems everyone here hates them. No, not here in the world! You know that the real drisicimantion is not about the colour of your skin, it's kids.

Times have changed however and the .org probably does need to bow to pressure and consider allowing custom avatars in the near future (custom signatures seem to be allowed - I personally don't see the difference).

That is what I have said and you dismiss it.

[caravel]

First, stop being rude with me. I did not talk to you in such a way and therefore demand an apology.

That's a huge overreaction and drama...

If you disclaim my talk is mere rubbish, then I'm afraid what you're speaking is absolute crap.:) How would you bring this into practical theory? You're crazy, I can't go on the website and edit it! Do I have that power? No, the Mods have.

I see... I don't remember writing "rubbish". I said "mere talk"... nor have I suggested you "edit the website"...

I asked if you had a "plan of action", what's wrong with that...?

There is a strict policy of respect. You're disrespecting that. You're saying ''kids''. Well, Adults should not feel it that way. If kids like it, let them like it. It seems everyone here hates them. No, not here in the world! You know that the real drisicimantion is not about the colour of your skin, it's kids.

Eh... what? Who's policy?

That is what I have said and you dismiss it.

In fact didn't dismiss anything - you seem to have gotten your knickers in a twist over nothing. I said in effect "let's see your plan". And why not? I'd like to know how you'd put what you've suggested here into practice.

[Peasant Phill]

The masses have shifted from the Org to TWC. We (every Orgah, not just the staff) are all very much aware of that. Regardless, becoming a second TWC in style and behavior isn't the answer. For one, there already is a TWC, why would those patrons move to the copycat. Secondly, niches (we have to admit that the Org caters to a certain kind of TW fan) are there for a reason. TW itself started as a niche game.

Just please be aware that there are many members on this site actively discussing how to keep the balance between keeping the atmosphere of the Org and keeping a healthy member base.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

That's a huge overreaction and drama...


I see... I don't remember writing "rubbish". I said "mere talk"... nor have I suggested you "edit the website"...

I asked if you had a "plan of action", what's wrong with that...?


Eh... what? Who's policy?


In fact didn't dismiss anything - you seem to have gotten your knickers in a twist over nothing. I said in effect "let's see your plan". And why not? I'd like to know how you'd put what you've suggested here into practice.

You were being downright rude here and talking to me as if you were the lazy person and I was the fool. I demand an apology at once!

I see... I don't remember writing "rubbish". I said "mere talk"... nor have I suggested you "edit the website"...

Mere talk is rubbish.

I asked if you had a "plan of action", what's wrong with that...?

How the heck am I supposed to have a plan of action? Ask the mods!

Eh... what? Who's policy?

A made up policy to remind you of being a Official racist and discriminator against Children.

let's see your plan". And why not? I'd like to know how you'd put what you've suggested here into practice.

What plan? I don't have a damn plan! How am I supposed to do that? All I can say are opinions!

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

The masses have shifted from the Org to TWC. We (every Orgah, not just the staff) are all very much aware of that. Regardless, becoming a second TWC in style and behavior isn't the answer. For one, there already is a TWC, why would those patrons move to the copycat. Secondly, niches (we have to admit that the Org caters to a certain kind of TW fan) are there for a reason. TW itself started as a niche game.

Just please be aware that there are many members on this site actively discussing how to keep the balance between keeping the atmosphere of the Org and keeping a healthy member base.

Are you very sure on that? Far as I know nearly everyone is less active. If they all shifted to the TWC, that's because most of the members here have to adapt to new things now. They cannot keep the hatred they feel for the Japanese. What's done is done. If the Org doesn't have much co-operation from CA, as on it's offical forum website, I'm afraid we're cut loose. And TWC has over a million members of course. If the ORG needs to surivies, it's members must come too it's aid. Whether on any website.

The only unformulated problem is that is this an Amercian website, I don't mean to be offensive here, And here they talk a lot about the points of view from Amercians only. Any different view is simply not accepted. Remember that Total War has become one of the most recognized games in the world. And there is an international pool of players. NTW has the most European players in their multi player community. ETW has many americans. SH2TW however has thousands of British and Europeans, including Americans and Japanese Amercians. Remember now that Total war has become famous, it's websites must cater to international standards. Simply by keeping it Amercianzied won't do any good. After all, isn't the USA the most powerful country in the world? No wonder you get less accperation from other websites. Once I showed my hatred of this website on the TWC forums( The Official onesof the websites) and one of the guys said that the Org was racist and really out of reach. So I conduct that you take surveys of the Org on every total war website and see how much it ranks, and how much people like it. You must accept new players, regardless of their countries and origin. Action must be taken by now. If it is not, then I'm afriad the Org will go bang!

[Maltz]

:Thread rating is already present. I think all account levels should have access. If you look at the top of a thread, there should be a button called "Rate thread" next to "View first unread" and "Thread tools". If it's not visible for normal users I'll ask a techie to check our settings.

I can't locate the "rate thread" tool, so I guess senior member is a non-staff. (sob)
There are four links on my top right:
View First Unread, Thread Tools, Search Thread, Display.

I would recommend that the "Thank" icon be increased so people can be thankful more frequently.

[Ja'chyra]

Are you very sure on that? Far as I know nearly everyone is less active. If they all shifted to the TWC, that's because most of the members here have to adapt to new things now. They cannot keep the hatred they feel for the Japanese. What's done is done. If the Org doesn't have much co-operation from CA, as on it's offical forum website, I'm afraid we're cut loose. And TWC has over a million members of course. If the ORG needs to surivies, it's members must come too it's aid. Whether on any website.

The only unformulated problem is that is this an Amercian website, I don't mean to be offensive here, And here they talk a lot about the points of view from Amercians only. Any different view is simply not accepted. Remember that Total War has become one of the most recognized games in the world. And there is an international pool of players. NTW has the most European players in their multi player community. ETW has many americans. SH2TW however has thousands of British and Europeans, including Americans and Japanese Amercians. Remember now that Total war has become famous, it's websites must cater to international standards. Simply by keeping it Amercianzied won't do any good. After all, isn't the USA the most powerful country in the world? No wonder you get less accperation from other websites. Once I showed my hatred of this website on the TWC forums( The Official onesof the websites) and one of the guys said that the Org was racist and really out of reach. So I conduct that you take surveys of the Org on every total war website and see how much it ranks, and how much people like it. You must accept new players, regardless of their countries and origin. Action must be taken by now. If it is not, then I'm afriad the Org will go bang!

What are you talking about? I'd suggest you calm down just a bit.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

What are you talking about? I'd suggest you calm down just a bit.

How dare you? I'm talking what the Org is and what it needs to do in order to improve. Seems you Org Members can't even read my posts carefully! Disgraceful, I say, disgraceful. CAN YOU NOT READ WHAT I WROTE?? CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? And, no, I was not angry in my post! And don't you tell me to calm down, It's perfectly safe to read my post!

[Maltz]

Er... as the thread opener, here are my inputs to make the ORG more popular (while not losing the quality):

1. Game-related contests - I see a video contest for shogun 2 and think it is a fantastic idea. For this very video contest it will be nice to have multiple awards/mentions (best battle, best story, most humerous, etc) to increase the participation (as not everybody is super creative) and exposre of good works (as many people want to see good gameplay videos). I can also think about periodic contests about screenshot and stories (apparently people now call it AARs - I personally hate acronyms so I will stick with stories).

2. Some kind of systematic reward for high-quality works

Be it a story, a strategy, a discussion... the "Thank" system is actually a great existing, quantitative system, but unfortunately it is not very frequently used. Maybe we can give members some kind of ranks based on how many thanks they receive. Then the site can reward these appreciated members with mentions and previleges (and cough, responsibilities) possibly with those badges that hang below the avatar.

A good start is to make the Thank icon a little bigger and maybe move it to somewhere more noticable.

Is there a way to display the number of "thanks" in a thread on the forum's thread list? Then it will be equivalent to a recommendation system.

3. Custom Avatar

Allowing custom avatar up to a certain size is a good start to increase user's loyalty. I don't think it will break the theme as the users are still here to post about the game and related things. They are not here to talk about Mass Effect even though they may look like Commander Shepard. (Endorcement: And this is my favorite post on the ORG.)

That's it for now.

[Maltz]

I agree with a few points in the above posts in particular:

1. We do not need to be like the TWC, COM. Exactly. We want to be able to find things that uniquely define the ORG. If people think of the ORG, they will think of something that we offer as a unique feature.

2. ORG must think of ways to increase visits and participation. I think this will come naturally if we get the nice features in place and bump up our ranks on google.

And here are the points I do not agree with:

1. We cater to a more mature fan base and the others cater a younger fan base. I think a good site should aim to take everyone if they wish to visit. The youngs, if left along, will act their age. But if they are among the wise, most watch and learn (while a few get thrown out). There is no point to purposely keep out the young, as one day they will become the pillars of the ORG. My current loyalty to the ORG comes from my participation here 11 years ago.

2. We do not want to become a second TWC. Aren't our goal to dominate the TWC like the old days? :P Just kidding. We want to be as popular as the current TWC, or the prevoius ORG.

[Andres]

Er... as the thread opener, here are my inputs to make the ORG more popular (while not losing the quality):

1. Game-related contests - I see a video contest for shogun 2 and think it is a fantastic idea. For this very video contest it will be nice to have multiple awards/mentions (best battle, best story, most humerous, etc) to increase the participation (as not everybody is super creative) and exposre of good works (as many people want to see good gameplay videos). I can also think about periodic contests about screenshot and stories (apparently people now call it AARs - I personally hate acronyms so I will stick with stories).

For that you need members who have the talent to participate in contests and have the dedication to put in some hard work. Such members are always a minority on all sites and if you're a site with not many members, such members will be rare. One thing that could be done is advertising our contest on other websites. Some websites won't like that, others won't make a big deal out of it (e.g. TWC has been very nice and cooperative in the past with allowing us to advertise contests and all kinds of stuff, like games in the Throne Room or mafia games in the GR). Perhaps advertising our contests on gamersfora of other strategy games (e.g. Paradox games) could help.

These are things that can be done by every member here (e.g. if you have an account at the Paradox fora or the TWC, you can talk about an .Org contest or mafia game there).

I'm going to be very honest here: staff can't bring the .Org back to its' glory days all by themselves. We need the help of our members for that. All our members. We're a community. Yes, I know there's the feeling of there being a sort of distinction between staff and not staff, but please, you shouldn't look at us as "different". Staff is only here because, well, a community is made out of humans and some form of organisation is needed. But in the end, staff are also .Org members, just like everybody else. Just like all other members who care for this place, staff cares.

We don't have the illusion of holding all the wisdom in the world. Our role is to serve the community. But it's the community as a whole, all members of it, so also the non staff members, that needs to work together.

Suggesting things and posting ideas is a good first step. Working on those ideas is the necessary second step and also the hardest part. It would be good to see all members who have time and ideas to do a bit of work too.

We need to be a community and stick together and collectively work on this place to get somewhere. And if you need "special powers" to get your project up and running, by all means, pm one of us.

2. Some kind of systematic reward for high-quality works

Be it a story, a strategy, a discussion... the "Thank" system is actually a great existing, quantitative system, but unfortunately it is not very frequently used. Maybe we can give members some kind of ranks based on how many thanks they receive. Then the site can reward these appreciated members with mentions and previleges (and cough, responsibilities) possibly with those badges that hang below the avatar.

A good start is to make the Thank icon a little bigger and maybe move it to somewhere more noticable.

Is there a way to display the number of "thanks" in a thread on the forum's thread list? Then it will be equivalent to a recommendation system.

These are good suggestions. I've been playing with a similar idea: create badges for people who did something extra. I've been playing with this idea for GR hosts, like a badge for everybody who has hosted a set number of games. Idem dito for the Throne Room. Perhaps more forms of recognition for modders, writers of AAR's, people who post guides.

I know we have the senior member system, but perhaps that's not enough diversity.

I also realise that some of our members don't like to see distinctions, ranks etc. That's in fact a strong argument against it. But then again, how do you motivate people to do work, for free, on some gaming site? It's nice to get recognition. It's nice to be thanked. It's nice to know people appreciate what you did. And it's only a badge. Something small. A little gesture that can make all the difference in the world.

3. Custom Avatar

Allowing custom avatar up to a certain size is a good start to increase user's loyalty. I don't think it will break the theme as the users are still here to post about the game and related things. They are not here to talk about Mass Effect even though they may look like Commander Shepard. (Endorcement: And this is my favorite post on the ORG.)

That's it for now.

Ah, the avatars. We did a poll on that some time ago and a clear majority was in favour of keeping the current system.

Then again, the idea is to attract new members, so why is it important what current members think. Because the current members are what make the place what it is, of course. Their opinion is valuable and we don't want to alienate the current userbase. In the end, there's no guarantee that allowing custom avatars will bring us even an inch closer to getting more popular.

Please, let the ideas come, it's good to have food for thought. I think I'll bundle some of the ideas from this thread and put up polls about it. Don't hold back on ideas, even if you think they'll be "revolutionary" or a complete different style than the .Org style. In the end, we (and with "we" I mean all of us, all members), need to decide on our direction: keep everything as it is with the risk of this place eventually simply fading away or change some things drastically, which may mean (no guarantees, there never are) more new blood, but also losing a bit of our current identity (you can't have everything).

I'd like to hear input from as many members as possible; new members, senior members, regular members, oldtimers, people who just signed up 5 minutes ago; everybody. Be open. Share your thoughts and no idea is too crazy.