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  1. #1
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default New Forum Structure Proposals

    The staff have been discussing a reorganization of the forum for a while now. The objective of this reorganization would be to make the system more efficient; making it easier for people to find what they are looking for while simultaneously reducing the creeping 'sprawl' we are experiencing due to the endless addition of new fora for each TW game. The main proposed structural changes are as follows:

    1) Use of an single Total War Legacy section to reduce the amount of index space devoted to older games. As you can see below, the proposed method of doing this reduces the actual space for each page, but does so in a manner that keeps all of the important game subfora accessible from the index. This has been done by making the parent forum for each game the current SP forum, instead of the current system in which the parent forum is just an empty category placeholder with no purpose except labeling. The disadvantages of this system are (1) it requires renaming the themed fora (i.e. Citadel, Colosseum) to more utilitarian names to enable new members to find what they are looking for (2) the sub-sub-fora get dropped from the index. The most recent game (currently TWS2) remains separate from the TW Legacy section, as it is the forum that most new members are arriving to look at. Once a new game is released, the new game would take the current TWS2 spot, and TWS2 would join the rest of the TW games in the Legacy section. This kind of system would significantly reduce the amount of forum lengthening that we experience with each new game release.

    2) The creation of a new Modding category, which is designed to increase the visibility of the modding community, particularly the Hosted Mods, which all retain top index listing with this section, something which would not be possible if they remained as game-specific subsections under the TW Legacy section. This category is also headed up by a Modding Boiler Room, which is designed to be a single forum for modders across all fora to communicate. Input from modders indicates that the actual modding sections themselves should remain under the individual game fora, so the other modding fora stay where they are under the TW Legacy section, but they also get links off the Modding Boiler Room for ease of access (and the modding subfora within TW Legacy will also have links going the other way, for the same reason).

    3) Major consolidation of the TW General Forums, Miscellaneous, and Tavern topics, to make them more comprehensible to new members. This involves multiple steps. First, all three forum gaming fora (Throne Room, Gameroom, Chapter House) are grouped together. Second, all other fora are placed into a single off-topic category, to clearly mark that they are not TW-specific. Third, the Hard-and-Software forum and the Apothecary are merged into a single tech forum which handles all tech topics, whether TW-related or not.

    In addition to this, there are two separate proposals about how the Forum Gaming and Off Topic sections should be handled. One proposal gives them full forum index space, while another significantly reduces the amount of room they take up by having them listed as subfora.

    I have prepared very rough mock-ups of the proposals below. Please note that these mockups do not include all of the forum renaming that would be needed, nor do they include all of the links that would be needed to make sure everything joined together in a sensible fashion. The below is focused on demonstrating what the index would generally look like, and how it would be organized.

    Here are the mock-ups for the proposal for the TW related sections:





    As noted above, for the Forum Gaming and Off Topic sections, there are two proposals. Here is the proposal with full forum index exposure:




    And here is the much shorter version:


    Here are some numbers on how these proposals compare to the current listing, in terms of length:

    For the proposal with the full forum index version of the Forum Gaming and Off Topic sections, the layout takes up a total of 26 individual 'forum lines' (a 'forum line' being an entry that receives a forum icon). By comparison, our current setup takes up 35 individual 'forum lines'. This roughly represents about a 1/4 reduction in forum length. Also, keep in mind that those screenshots are with the TWS2 skin, which uses larger than normal icons for the fora. The scrolling length would be reduced on any other skin, by an amount that is about equivalent to three to five 'forum lines' (depending on skin) on the TWS2 skin. For example, on the Guild skin, the fora end at about where the Tavern Backroom is on the TWS2 skin.

    For the proposal with the abbreviated forum index version of the Forum Gaming and Off Topic sections, the layout reduces the Forum Gaming and Off Topic sections down to two 'forum lines' from ten, resulting in a total reduction of eight lines. The cost of this is significantly reduced exposure for all Off Topic and Gaming sections. With this arrangement, the total forum size is 18 lines, which is almost exactly a 50% reduction in size from the current version.

    Please provide commentary and criticism on the above proposals. Nothing is finalized yet and we very much want to know what the members think about these possible setups. Please remember that we are trying to balance the needs of the existing members with the needs of new members who are coming to the Org for the first time. Once again, I want to emphasize that the above screenshots do not include all the minor tweaks that would be required, such as some forum renaming, added links, and cleaning up some of the mods that are listed as Hosted Mods but which are dead and were never released as a usable mod.

    Thank you in advance for your input.
    Last edited by TinCow; 06-05-2012 at 12:41.

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  2. #2
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Forum Structure Proposals

    I am for the "full forum index exposure".
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  3. #3
    War Story Recorder Senior Member Maltz's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Forum Structure Proposals

    Looks good. My suggestions:

    1. The hosted mods can become links "hosted mods" in the first section. Then they do not require the large icons in the mod section. The link can still be given there.
    2. I wonder whether the numerous off-topic forums can be combined based on similar topics. Currently a lot of posts come from off-topics, so it might be a good idea to leave them very visible.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member Ibn-Khaldun's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Forum Structure Proposals

    I like the first Off topic/Forum gaming set up.

  5. #5
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Forum Structure Proposals

    The shorter version looks terrible. If you guys are serious, please go with the full exposure.

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    Default Re: New Forum Structure Proposals

    "Engage".


  7. #7
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: New Forum Structure Proposals

    Oi, long time no see
    And quite serendipitous to be here in time for this topic, since I remember that, when last visiting about 6 months ago, I thought the board needed it.

    So, it is very nice of you to implement this TinCow

    Agree with the rest that the slightly longer, full exposure version is still better, even if less radical a change.
    If I would have a suggestion, it would be to have the Forum categories be made more visible. That is, New Members, Total War: Shogun 2, Previous Total War games, Forum Gaming, Off Topic. These titles should be bigger, so as to be more visible as you scroll down the page.
    And if you don’t mind a bit of feedback in general, then

    (1) it requires renaming the themed fora (i.e. Citadel, Colosseum) to more utilitarian names to enable new members to find what they are looking for
    Direly needed for what my opinion is worth.
    And in view of this, perhaps make sure all names in the On Topic categories and sections are crystal clear, except for the main SP (Tea House) and MP (Hachiman Fields) forum Sub-category titles of the current game, where the flavour should be kept – the voting and talk going along with it when choosing the names has always sparked a very convivial atmosphere as far as I recall, we should hold onto that part.

    Sections like Ludus Magna and the Confucian Academy should, however, be renamed as clearly and plainly as possible to something like Game Mechanics and the same name should be used all over for this type of section.
    In the same vein, rather than Total War Legacy, just write Previous Total War titles – it’s clear and clean.

    Please note that these mockups do not include all of the forum renaming that would be needed
    On that topic. Aside from replacing the flavour text, the explanatory notes below the forum section titles should be changed as well in my opinion. The text should be shorter, or more straightforward, and a bit more inviting too. Order should be emphasized when organizing these sections. After the SP, MP sections, we should always have Guides come up first, they’ve always been most important in attracting new members, we want them very visible. Then, in order of their importance for new members again, Mods, then the Game Mechanics sections (the Ludus Magna, Confucian Academy type of sub-forums), then AARs.

    I would also suggest not displaying the acronym for AARs, but rather the actual name, After Action Report. I must confess, when checking up on the .Org a year ago I had no idea what AARs meant, but, at the same time, I had towards it that sort of “I’ve no time to check what this is about” mentality we’re adopting more and more nowadays to block the stream of info flooding our brains. It took me 1 month to bother clicking on the section and finding out, I kid you not.

    Same thing applies for the Forum Gaming category; drop the section flavour titles there as well and go for clear descriptions and order it the other way around, let Total War Multiplayer Campaigns come first, followed by Interactive History Games and then Forum Games – despite the popularity of the latter among old-timers, the category should first try to emphasize Total War related forum gaming perhaps. It is one of those niches the .Org fills very well and which may at any time gain a large boost depending on the TW title released and the support ensured by CA for such features.

    The Off Topic category may, on the other hand, be all flavour in my opinion. It already has the Tavern, the Watchtower, the Mead Hall and the Monastery, which together lead one to imagine one of those small Italian or French medieval towns – we may as well go ahead and complete the tableau by renaming the Hard- and software and the Arena sections in the same spirit, say, and this is merely off the top of my head, the Laboratory and the Foreign Quarter respectively. And again, we should try to list them in a more appropriate order. Say, we first have the Tavern with its Frontroom and Backroom – we should then place the Monastery, since so many Backroom talks touch on the subject of history, then the Mead Hall, since the section really is all about members getting to know each other better at its most basic as well. The Watchtower, then the Laboratory (Hardware and Software) are the sections where chaps go for help, so list them one after the other; and then, ofc, we’d have the Foreign Quarter (the Arena). We may even try to align the Entrance Hall along the same concept by renaming it the Front Gate or something similar, even if it would remain at the top.

    And again, everywhere, we should place the most simple, inviting and straightforward texts.
    Probably a bit much to just say “change this and that”, so below you have a hurried sketch of how I think it should read:
    Note: Bold & Large stands for Forum category. Bold for Sub-category. Plain text for explanatory Sub-category notes. Underline for Sections.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    New Members

    The Front Gate
    Introduce yourself and learn our rules

    Total War: Shogun 2

    Fall of the Samurai
    Chat about Single Player
    Guides
    The Tea House
    Chat about Single Player
    Guides
    Game Mechanics
    After Action Reports
    Hachiman Fields
    Chat about Multiplayer
    Guides for Shogun 2
    Guides for Fall of the Samurai
    Clan recruitment and interaction
    Tournaments & Ladders
    Mods
    Chat about Total War: Shogun 2 mods


    Previous Total War games


    Empire: Total War
    Chat about Single Player
    Multiplayer
    Mods
    Guides
    After Action Reports
    Napoleon Total War

    Medieval 2: Total War
    Chat about Single Player
    Multiplayer
    Mods
    Guides
    After Action Reports

    Rome: Total War
    Chat about Single Player
    Multiplayer
    Mods
    Guides
    Game Mechanics
    After Action Reports

    Medieval: Total War
    Chat about Single Player
    Multiplayer
    Mods
    Guides
    After Action Reports

    Shogun: Total War
    Chat about Single Player
    Multiplayer
    Mods
    Guides


    Hosted Mods


    Mods: Advice and Brainstorming
    TW: S2 Add-ons
    etc.

    Total War: Shogun 2 Mod Development Forums
    Sakura
    etc.

    Empire & Napoleon: Total War Mod Development Forums
    etc.


    Forum Gaming


    Total War Multiplayer Campaigns
    Chat about Hotseat Games, Play-by-eMail Games and Total War RPGs
    Interactive History Games
    Forum Games


    Off Topic


    Tavern Frontroom
    Chat about anything non-controversial
    Tavern Backroom
    Chat politely about controversial topics
    The Monastery
    Chat about History
    The Mead Hall
    Chat about Arts, Letters and Stories by Orgahs
    The TreasAARy
    The Watchtower
    Chat about .Org management
    The Laboratory
    Chat about Hardware and Software
    The Foreign Quarter
    Chat about Games and Gaming platforms

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  8. #8
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Forum Structure Proposals

    Thank you for that post, there's a lot of sense in it. The themed forum names are a bit of a conundrum. We use them simply out of Org tradition, and, while the amount of confusion they actually cause is unquantifiable, they certainly have a least a mildly negative impact on the ease of use of the forum. At the same time, they also are part of what makes the Org the Org, and I think many existing members would be sad to lose them. I wonder how much benefit there is to retaining themed names anywhere if they are dropped in some sections. Why have themed names in the TWS2 section if those names will be dropped as soon as the next TW game comes out? Why have themed names in the Off Topic section if they exist nowhere else on the site? It would certainly be a shock to lose them all at once, but does it make any sense to keep them in some areas and not in others?


  9. #9
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Forum Structure Proposals

    I like Nowake's suggestions for the names for the off-topic areas especially, but no having any names at all would be another possible alternative.
    That would boil down to...

    Off Topic

    General
    General and Casual Banter and Fun
    Serious
    For discussions, debates and controversial topics
    History
    Discussion about History
    Technology
    Chat about Hardware and Software
    Creative
    Chat about Arts, Letters and Stories by Orgahs
    Game
    Chat about Games and Gaming platforms
    Management
    Chat about .Org management
    Last edited by Beskar; 07-02-2012 at 22:41.
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  10. #10
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Forum Structure Proposals

    Are you implying that .Org management is not serious, @Tiaexz ?



    Should I change your avatar to a joker and make your title "Resident clown" then?
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  11. #11
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Forum Structure Proposals

    Hmm, my previous post may have left you thinking about uniformity, yet my suggestions really targeted a few specific gains

    The thing is, the potential member comes here because of the games. So we must ease one’s access to our resources as much as possible, one must feel one has everything at one’s fingertips when one seeks data. So if we change the names of those categories and sections we give them order and clarity, which for me are the greatest assets a forum can have, besides the community. Now that’s a good segue, since...

    ...on the other hand, the New Members and Off Topic categories are solely about the .Org community. Which, for better or worse, has a kind of history in many people’s heads. The customized names leave one to intuit a tradition of sorts. And that does exist. I’m sure I saw long timers describing themselves or at least they implied to be perceiving themselves as Tavern dwellers, Backroom lurkers or Monastery wonks and such. The Watchtower is pretty iconic a name as well by now. These 3-4 categories and sections have their customs and dropping them would erase that partially. To my mind, we want to keep these long-standing virtual areas and so, we may as well align the rest of the Off topic section titles to them.

    And there is potential appeal in that for new members too. You stop by for the information, but if you want to stick around, you do so to be part of the community. Because really, absorbing the info about the specific Total War title you’re playing only takes a few evenings in between gaming sessions. It is one of the reasons old-timers do not post in the game sections after the first few weeks following a game’s release – not much to be said at all. So, the new chap will stay because the new chap wants to interact with Orgahs.
    I think we should insert that term more often by the way. It references the both the .Org and an interjection long-timers love because members are always fascinated by what they define as old-school, it identifies a group, the group itself has a history in the larger TW community and it’s really catchy, unlike talking about TWC..ers? or .Com..ers? The latter may break some record for the worst pun ever but that’s pretty much it.

    To conclude, if we’re to get this right, lets get the best of both worlds.
    Oki, feedback over!

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