TARGET morale issue need to be solved

[MagyarKhans Cham]

Target my main man, of all problems i just filtered the Morale Issue amongst the threads. It seems unit "fight till the death" even the weakest hardly run, it is like playing with "morale off" in the old game. Please explain this in here... on what purpose is it changed, why leaving the path of Sun Tzu, the name used in all previous advertisements?

we need to have a good morale balance before we can think of a unit stats balance...

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Quote I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well[/QUOTE]

[This message has been edited by MagyarKhans Cham (edited 08-16-2001).]

[DoCToR]

Added this to the other bug/problem thread i created...to me this seems to be biggest problem and the one which needs most immediate attention

One of the beauties of the original version was the fact that you could be losing a battle quite badly, but then with one inspired piece of tactical manoeuvering could turn the tide of the battle completely around!!

With the current setup this seems to be a complete impossibility....basically better/luckier unit selection along with stone, paper, scissors match up will prevail almost every time over tactical manoeuvering such as flanking and rearing.

Shame



[This message has been edited by DoCToR (edited 08-16-2001).]

[ShadowKill]

yep i agree wholeheartitly

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Clan Shades
come by and give us a visit
ShadeLord Shiba a member of clan shades

[monkeydan]

yes - morale issues must be fixed so the tactical importance of manoeuver is maintained -- this is what separates STW from (shudder) C&C!!

[Swoosh So]

Totally agree the morale has ruined the battles

Swoosh

[Lord Aeon]

I hope what you guys are saying that the morale for ALL units needs to be reduced, not just that of footsoldiers...

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Puzz3D]

The morale setting for 5000 koku battles was a bit low in the old game, but you could just up the koku and increase the unit honor which many people did to get more resilient units. One thing you could do now is play by agreement with all units at honor=0. That's just a band-aid solution, it does seem like the morale has been increased a lot.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 08-17-2001).]

[Maltz]

I can perfectly imagine how STW lovers would HATE to see the morale gets turned off. It simply ruins the fun of STW by disabling 90% of tactics.

Won't buy the ex pack unless this being fixed!

[Swoosh So]

Really important so im gonna bump it BUMP!

[Alastair]

I don't know about changing it so soon. I've had YS rout for no apparent reason even in the expansion.

[JAG]

routing for no apparent reason and what we r talking bout is different. . ..i agree with u on this one guys it a big shame

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Watch out for that. . . . . Dam too late!. . . the story of my life!

WarlordWarrior

[Alastair]

No, not the rout bug. It was while in combat and winning and I hadn't given it orders for a minute at least.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

bumpie

[TakeshidaSo]

Big Disappointment.

[Yagyu Emissary Kensen]

I seem to be in the minority in this, but it's my opinion (and much of my clans as well I think) that the morale situationhas improved and it now MUCH more realistic. In the old STW namely in MP, you could be destroying the enemy, when suddenly a cavalry unity to the rear of your general sends your general to his grave and all of your missile units running. The sight of a dead general, 240 running musketeers and some 200 bodies makes the other 600 men uneasy. WHY? Any battle hardened warrior knows that death is a realistic expectation, so samurai simply march over to the offending cavalry and impale a few ponies, enemies will is broken, the day is one, and most likely, the captain of the surviving unit with the most valor assumes the newly vacated general position. In WE, I've actually had some wonderful pulse pounding battles. On totomi Emperor Akechi, as a defender beat me by a total of 30 some men. EVERYONE was killed or the unit ran off in 1's and 2's. THAT's realistic. He had 26 nag cav left and 8 naginata or so, and I have 35 musketeers...hmm..do they run and expose their backs to charging cavalry...NO!, they do the only sensible thing, and shoot like they've never shot before and hope they bring down enough cavalry to save the day. I've had other battles, where it was literally fought down to 5 or 6 men on each side. Is this realistic? In some ways, yes, in others, no. But is it fun??? YEA! It's fun to know that your troops aren't gonna run even though they have 55 men left, just because a stupid archer unit got decimated. furthermore, If you're embroiled in battle, you don't tend to notice if your general, most likely way behind you is killed. Dead generals, do only, and SHOULD only affect rallying. I tend to take exception to the notion that battles being decided by army selection and rock paper scissors is a BAD thing. Face it, bringing the right army is an important! part of warfare. Also I don't feel as though it's paper rock scissors. Granted, there's a certain degree of math involved in the enginge, and just figuring out the battle calculations, but these calculations affect real life. If I win a battle it's because I brought the righ army. In the aforemention battle against emperor akechi, he had like 3-4 cav archers, had i brought 2 more samurai units instead of NO Dachi, the day would likely have been mine. But, that's part of the fun, not knowing. To say that strategy no longer plays a role is ludicrous. What you're really saying is, "it's no longer possible for me to ressurect my army form earlier strategic erros on my part by rushing the enemy general. More so now, you must win though STRATEGIC army deployment, and STRATEGIC flanking and rearing. Guess what, if you rear a general now, he won't run. But, you still butcher him. It's his rear! The fact remains now, that you have to bring 16 units. Because you cant just rout the enemy anymore. This is true in real life. Numbers rule. Even the most honourable warrior has a back. Please not that all of this argument refers ONLY to multiplayer, and if you have a beef about campaign, eh you're probably right, in campaign it is stupid for morale to be so high when you can just retreat to a neighboring province.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

hmmm may isuggest that the real fun lies in a fact that someone has a better composed army to fight yours but still looses since u found a way to break him. som ein here arent suggesting that the old things were right as well but as things are now it is just plain stupid especially with higher honoured troops. I have h4 archers seeing battling to the last men when complete surrounded and attacked by hardhitters.

I would suggest it must be somewhere in between, between what we have in stw1 and what we have in stw2.

[[Won-Ton] Atlus]

i agree with kensen, i think the morale is fine. people still run on me (those pansy a$$ wankers...) and i dont think that anything has to be done about it. maltz, its not that big of a problem if it is one at all. so buy the game NOW!!!

[Alastair]

Yagyu, that may be realistic in modern warfare, but when you have untrained peasants with a spear stuck in their hand and told to FIGHT! they rout pretty easily. Same with guns and crossbows. Samurai just out of the training area (read H0) also rout pretty easily. Samurai hardened by many battles (read H5) might fight to the fifty-fifth man, (60 man units) but that's obvious and the way it was in STW. Now it is ludicrous. If you're a peasant with a spear stuck in your hand, then if you see cavalry charging at your flank, you RUN!

[Lord Aeon]

I am also of the opinion that nothing needs to be changed. Furthermore, i'm confused as to which tactics have now become 'useless'. What are you having trouble doing now that you could do before?

Seems to me that the game has not become less complex, but more so. IF all the old strategies are nullified (and, mind you, i'm saying *IF*), then now we're all forced to use different strategies when engaging the enemy.

Also, i can't help pointing out that if units routed more easily, there would be more of a disparity between the effectiveness of charging Mongol cavalry and sitting yari samurai. As a result there would be *more* whining about how tough MHC are. I'm of the opinion that you guys can't have it both ways.

I think it's too EASY for one to just charge cavalry and rout the entire army... I have had armies rout just as easily in the ex-pack SP campaign as i did in the original STW campaign. So i agree that it is a bit too early to make blanket changes like this. Play the game awhile first. Get used to the new setup. THEN complain.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Yagyu Emissary Kensen]

Let me address some of the arguments put forth. Whoever said peasants with spears would rout is absolutely right. They do rout in WE, in fact Ashigaru rout around 20 men remaining. This makes sense, because they are not gonna run with over 30 men left. Why? They'll likely be killed by their general/daimyo for running dishonourably with over half their force left. I've routed ashi's constantly. Secondly, Do 0 honour troops rout? YES! I see it all the time, 15 0 honour samurai running like crazy. They're not peasants and there quite by choice. Now, someone said they were upset by the fact that their archers fought to the last man, well consider this: if you're winning the battle, and see many of your own flags still around, you may not notice the others dyign around you. At the moment you're a little concerend with slapping at that spear with your katana. Also, someone was upset because h5 troops never routed. Hmmm, Duh! Guys, think about it, h5, means you are a hardened elite force. In terms of the game, where most troops are new at h0, you are h5, and fully inact as a unit, meaning collectively, you've seen much battle, are well trained and most likely fearless. You would never run from 120 0h monks, because you are samurai, it is the way of the warrior. Furthermore, it is much preferable to the japanese non-ashi warrior to die honourably with a spear/sword to the chest, than to die dishonourably with a spear or hoof in your back. Frankly, I'm right. No matter how you look at it, the new morale makes sense. I don't care i you disagree about that though, what irks me is the notion that somehow the game has now been tactically cheapened?????? HOW????? Now you have troops who will actually hold their lines long enough for you to execute your strategies. instead of, OH LOOK< I HAD 180 MONKS IN THE TREES, rout the general. If the enemy still has 500 capable troops, they wipe tears from their eye sfor their lost general and avenge his death on the monks. Point is, dont say it doesn't require strategy. It just requires REALISTIC strategy.

[DragonCat]

Although I believe more research needs to be done, I find I tend to come down on the side that it is better now, even in multiplayer. I have sold my honor down in some battles, just to see them rout on me. But buying them more honor makes them fight much more tenaciously.

I also find that once enough men have been killed and enough tactical position has been gained, then units WILL break and rout.

But no longer am I seeing my whole army run early in the battle because of a domino effect of bad morale multiplying across the field.

If there is a change to be made back in the other direction, it should be a VERY subtle one- but if its either keep this or go back to the old, I will keep this.

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[Alastair]

Ashigaru should rout before 20 men. They should rout after two morale penalties, i.e. fighting Samurai and getting flanked, or a height disadvantage and fighting Samurai. They don't now. In modern terms, 20 men is about the right number to rout at. In medieval (read WE) terms, 50-55 is more like it for ashigaru. Also, Lord Aeon said that if units routed more easily, then there would be more of a disparity between charging MHC and dug-in YS. HUH? How does that follow?

[This message has been edited by Alastair (edited 08-17-2001).]

[Lord Aeon]

LOL, i thought it was fairly simple, but let me try and explain:

Right now the reigning idea is that MHC are too tough to beat. The best unit for the money to combat them seems to be Yari samurai with upgrades, right?

Follow me so far?

Now, if i understand it correctly, a charging cavalry unit gives the defending unit a penalty for morale, causing them to be more prone to rout. Right?

OK. Now, if units begin to rout more easily, e.g. Yari Samurai would rout still having greater than 20 men, then they would be at a disadvantage to charging MHC.

If you INCREASE their (YS) susceptibility to routing, that means that charging MHC would be even MORE deadly than before, because they would be able to make samurai rout easily when the samurai could just as easily stand and fight and perhaps win.

Have i explained it clearly enough? I'm being serious, because i know it's sort of difficult to work out if you haven't thought about it. I can try to state it more clearly if i take more time.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[MagyarKhans Cham]

besides the lowest kokus with units on honour 0 i didnt see any realistic routing.

even an hardened soldier will rout if surrounded by 4 times same number of hardenen soldiers

1 giant will run if he sees 4 others coming for him.

now i see h4 units fight till the death.

the thing is changed to give more -new-people a change and to stop the routing domino effect. but it would be better to keep it as it was and raise the koku amount. but the downfall for that was that most people took all monks...

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

I am not sure which morale setting is more realistic the original one or the new one, haven't participated in medieval samurai battles myself, just a tad before my time.

We can guess and check out historical battles, but even history can be quite twisted about the rendering of "what really happened". So this type of debate can be quite endless not to say pointless.

So i guess it comes down to what i prefer, what i like the most.

Given the choice between the two, i like the new settings better, you may not and you are entitled to your opinion. But Here are my reasons:

-This game has always had a rock/paper/scissors factor in it (Except for the WM but this seems fixed now) and the results of battles can not be determined by anything else than mathematical formulas. So basically nothing has changed.

-Nothing pissed me off more than a battle that i was winning until one unit had a problem and routed, creating a domino effect. No fun at all. Now it will not happen if i have decent honor units. Good.

-The original settings gave a tremendous advantage to speed, the quickest "clicker" was the better player. I'm an old fart, i don't click fast. Now they do not have this tremendous advantage. I have more time to react and counter, no more one blow wins. Good for me!

-Now i can spread out my army and really use the nice bigger maps TACTICALLY - the terrain features (woods, height) and climate features (Rain,Snow, fog). No more bland only summer/not to hilly maps for me anymore.
No more army that have to stay grouped because they will rout to easily problem. I can actually ambush, try to misdirect my opponent, set traps in my battles. Excellent! more depth, more options.

- I don't have to use only some specific types of units anymore because a good part of them we're useless in MP. The lesser impact of morale penalties, combined with the armor/weapons upgrades can make usefull ALL THE UNITS in some situations. More choices, more possibilities, more fun!

- A rear or flanking attack still gets you more kills, right? So that is a good reason to continue with those tactics. It doesn't make the whole army rout anymore because of a Domino effect? Very good, so know we have to work harder for a win.

The rules have changed and i am happy with those changes...

[Swoosh So]

They dont change the morale thing and im outa here thats how bad i feel about it either that or ill stick to the old foyer until they shut it down, its my belief thaat the inexperienced players will like the current morale but will get bored of the game as theres not enough tactical thought now

Swoosh

[Morpheus Akechi]

Guys this morale things makin me wonder if the expansion pack should be brought out in u.k at all until theres a patch or somit! I mean from what ive heard this sounds like its going to be more of an arcade game rather than a realistic battle game. True the japenese were apparantly renound for caring about honour and were supposed to of fought to the last man no matter what the odds , but it just means that the tactics are pretty much gone. Its just charge the enemy and hope u win! No more flanking in mid battle to the enemy rear to make them break. (Incase u havent read furys post shoggy x pac is out next week now!)

-Morpheus

[Algesan]

Yagyu, casualties in this era are traditionally lopsided with 90% of the casualties coming when one side wavered and fled. Although I'm not real sure about what is going on now with morale, sometimes units seem to be supermen and the next time superwimps. I've seen units rout for no good or apparent reason (i.e. - one on one fights against equal troops in evenly matched encounters) and I've seen one infamous YA stand under the assault of NI, ND and YC while half the unit died quickly until help could arrive.

[DragonCat]

In the new game, units do still rout- just not at the drop of a hat. They also don't have the ridiculous domino routing effect. Although as units rout, others will be more prone to do so, but it won't be automatic rout as before.

I think you should try it, and try it a LOT before you complain. I don't think I am a poor or newbie player and I like it a lot. And yes, you can spread your army out more to try more varied tactics. But guess what, I have still lost due to a high honor rush- although I felt I had at least a little bit of a chance to fight it out.

I say give it a month of everyone playing a lot and then let's see.

As with the MHC at first everyone was crying and wailing and gnashing their teeth that they were sooooo unfair. Now everyone seems to accept that they are good, yes, but unbeatable or grossly outbalanced, no. I think the same will be true of the suppossed morale crisis. It is far worst in its apprehension than in its reality.

That's my opinion, I could be wrong.

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[Magyar Khan]

still there should be a mongol vs mongol option...