Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

[Tamur]

(09 May 2016 edit) Tamur's hosting site is now offline but he's graciously allowed us to host it here at the Org. --therother

(28 May 2008 edit) This guide has been downloaded nearly 15.000 times from thirty-two different websites over the past four years. I'm definitely grateful for the interest, but do want to let people know that has not been maintained for nearly three years now. Feel free to download and use with the 1.2 patch, but patches beyond that are not covered here.


(14 July 2005 edit) This diplomacy guide has had its first update in quite a long time. Not much, but the Bribe and Protectorate sections have been rewritten to bring them into sync with 1.2.

This is a PDF. Note that it is over 60 pages long, with a filesize to fit (about 330K).

RTWDiplomacy.pdf

You can download the Adobe Acrobat Reader (6.0+ required) at http://www.adobe.com/reader.

[Leet Eriksson]

Good job and very informative! I vote this thread for sticky!

[Thoros of Myr]

Hahah, Tamur your really taking a liking to the diplomacy I see. It's so much better in RTW for sure.

Ceasefires are great for getting huge money, I had Egypt pay me 2100g tribute for 6 turns once on a ceasefire "The mighty Pharaoh has no choice but to accept your insulting offer"

I'm still trying to figure out when/what is best to use with "accept or we will attack", it mostly seems to piss them off to the point where they won't deal with you even with a good diplomat. You can add it to a ceasefire but it tends to damage relations too much. I like to keep them as friendly as possible while milking as much out of them as I can at the same time. I think it has to be a suprise attack on a city and/or something where you clearly have thier faction leader or hier in a dire situation to get them offer serious money or regions.

Some juicy options to try in the Pompey and Caelius Maneuvers...

nice guide!

[RJV]

Document fires up but I then get an empty window....boo hoo

[Tamur]

Hahah, Tamur your really taking a liking to the diplomacy I see. It's so much better in RTW for sure.

Ha, yes! This diplomacy thing has me hooked... after that question you answered I realised I had no idea what I was doing with it, so time to delve and search and experiment.

I'm still trying to figure out when/what is best to use with "accept or we will attack"...

Right, that one needs to be added, though like Become Protectorate, I don't know enough about it to make any meaningful statements. Have no idea myself when it's a good bargaining tool. More research needed

I made the mistake of trying to move an army through an allies land without access rights.

Ah, also need to add items like this. Thanks!


I do wish I could find more information about the conditions under which offers are rejected. Also, factions must have stance values just like the Senate, but how to affect these in ways that you can predict (besides the rather lumpy "If I give them Athens they'll be happier") is still beyond me. I'm sure there's not a 1:1 correspondence between agent actions and faction stance or it wouldn't be real life, but still there have to be some broad guidelines to play by.

Glad it's working for folks. Again, feel free to hit me with info as you run across it.

[Adrian II]

Hopefully someone finds it useful.

Very useful indeed. When sticky-time comes around I'm sure this one doesn't only qualify, it's a model for all the other agent stickies. I still don't have the !&$# game, but from what you've written I finally understand what changes have been made from MTW. I'm glad someone finally gave me the whle picture. I gather diplomacy has been vastly improved, really beyond peoples' expectations. The way a diplomat makes a career now (and dies..) plus the number of options for negociations, the way your options are integrated into the strategy map,. the attention to detail such as the return of a Legionary Eagle - it sounds like a real labour of love for which someome at CA has been going out of their way researching, testing and refining. For someone like me who is really put off by the graphics (I still can't help crying for laughter over those phants with funny pants) this is really encouraging, certainly in conjunction with the headhurlers, a detail that could only come up in someone who truly appreciates (as most of us probably do) Monty Python's unforgettable Fish Slapping Dance.

Yeah, for the first time after seeing those goofy screenshots I'm beginning to really look forward to this game.

[SpencerH]

I made the mistake of trying to move an army through an allies land without access rights. The senate sent me a nasty message to get outa there (which I did). Realizing my mistake, I tried to negotiate access rights but I was no longer trusted.

[Basileus]

Very nice work man

[zentuit]

Tamur,
Nice job on the diplomacy guide. It is a great read. I have one other strategy and a response on the Map Information option.
I found that the factions I was close to and neutral with (Germans, Britons, and Spanish) would buy the map information. I offered it and let them counter-offer with an amount. In normal/normal, the offers were from 2000-3100 denarii. These 3 factions really pumped up my coffers and let me storm the Gauls.

Also I was able to negotiate Trade Agreements without any prior contact (no Map Information first). Again this was on normal/normal.

[Tamur]

I found that the factions I was close to and neutral with (Germans, Britons, and Spanish) would buy the map information.

Hadn't tried this, nice!

Also I was able to negotiate Trade Agreements without any prior contact (no Map Information first).

Yes, most of the time this works. I have had Trade Rights rejected (once only) and needed to go back to Map Info exchange first.

Thanks! I'll add all the new info as soon as I can get a break from this job of mine.

[Murmandamus]

Tamur,
Nice job on the diplomacy guide. It is a great read. I have one other strategy and a response on the Map Information option.
I found that the factions I was close to and neutral with (Germans, Britons, and Spanish) would buy the map information. I offered it and let them counter-offer with an amount. In normal/normal, the offers were from 2000-3100 denarii. These 3 factions really pumped up my coffers and let me storm the Gauls.

Also I was able to negotiate Trade Agreements without any prior contact (no Map Information first). Again this was on normal/normal.

Just played around with this and the deal seems to get sweeter as you keep haggling.

I started off trying for a straight exchange of map info with the Numidians, they kept offering me 2000 for my map info but wouldn't give me theirs. So I offered 1000 denari plus my map info for their map info. They counter was to pay me 2000 denari tribute for 3 turns for my map info which I took. Maybe the more you offer for theirs, the more they will give you for yours?

My guy had 5 influence vs the others 1 and it was on normal difficulty.

[Encaitar]

Something I've found is that the AI actually refuses gifts sometimes. The excuse seems to be something along the lines of either 'we can't match that offer' ( I'm not asking you to) or 'we don't trust gifts from you'.

[Tamur]

Revision up, with much added information, corrections pointed out here and elsewhere, revised Traits/Retinue info, a Diplomatic Disaster section, and a new Diplomatic Strategy -- the Robin Hood Maneuver

[JR-]

very nice, thanks.

[therother]

Excellent guide, very useful indeed!

I have one small quibble though: I've managed to bribe an army without it melting away. I believe the army has to be composed of units you could build yourself, i.e. bribing a Roman army when you are another Roman faction will result in you getting your mitts on the whole army, including any family members and agents.

[Soulflame]

Very nice. It's very detailed and very easily readable. I think even my silly cat can work it out .
Personally, (just started) I love the map exchanges. They usually demand around 5000 for the maps if I offer my maps too, but I can grind it down to 1500-3000 usually. I think it also relates to how much information they have.

One important thing that you might want to add to the guide is that if you get the map information, it's permanent. So if another faction takes over a region which you can see on the map, you see that! Even without units present! For free! (So basically you only need to buy map information for all regions just once.)
However, if the faction you bought the map info off expands into other territories, you don't get those for free (need to buy/trade for map info again).

Maybe I'm a bit unclear, so I'll use an example:
If you buy map info from the Gauls, but Germania takesover a region from the Gauls after you bought the map info, you can see the change in owner on the minimap.
However, if the Gauls expand after you bought the map info, you don't see that.

[Tamur]

Ahha, great, thanks for the clarification. I had wondered especially about the map info remaining as when you bought it, or if it were an ongoing exchange of map info.

I have forgotten twice now to add info about bribing family members... didn't know that about Roman bribery though, that could come in very, very handy, and his without a doubt historically accurate

I'll add and post up a new version sometime before the day is out.

[Sjakihata]

Excellent guide, very useful indeed!

I have one small quibble though: I've managed to bribe an army without it melting away. I believe the army has to be composed of units you could build yourself, i.e. bribing a Roman army when you are another Roman faction will result in you getting your mitts on the whole army, including any family members and agents.

when you bribe a normal general (actually captain) it melts away/disbands. when a family member leads the army it becomes yours. nothing to do with which units are in the army AFAIK

[Encaitar]

I just finished a full campaign as the Julii, and I had a diplomat going around bribing Brutii armies to get them out of the way, and every one of them joined my faction, rather than disbanding. None of them was led by a family member, they varied from 1 unit to about a dozen units, and my diplomat wasn't anything special skill-wise. But when bribing enemy armies earlier in the game (from non-Roman factions), I'd found that they would disband unless led by a family member.

[Silver Rusher]

You give unprompted cash gifts (only negative)

You know, I'm not entirely sure this is true. I believe that it is only when you give in too many gifts that this begins to happen. Earlier on in the gift-giving process I think it is actually positive. I'm not sure though.

[Praylak]

Earlier on in the gift-giving process I think it is actually positive. I'm not sure though.

When is too much, too much, I don't know. But I do know it works for a while.

In my last campaign as Germania, if you played them you know Briton wants to own you. I was able to keep peace for 20 turns between Gaul and Briton. All I did was setup trade rights between both, and every turn alternating between the two gave them 100 denari. In any other campaign, where I would ignore diplomacy for the most part, Briton would always attack with a few turns, and Gaul would follow close behind.

While I gave Briton 100d on turn 1, then I gave Gaul 100d turn 2, Briton turn 3, etc. I believe this gave me the time I needed to scoop up those rebel provinces to the North and East and thats all I wanted was a temporary peace to focus on that. Fortified my position, built some troops and around the 20th turn Briton attacked. 22nd turn, Gaul Declared war on me and formed an alliance with Briton. You can buy peace for a time.

[Maltz]

I could easily raise my diplomat's influence by a series of failed proposal. Even if starting with 0 influence, I can ask for ceasefire, trade rights, alliance, sell map, or whatever that is refused. Although I don't get the "trait increase" info. box, the diplomat's influence is quickly raised to 3+, even 4.

I am not sure whether I could call this a bug, but it makes sense that everybody learns through failure, too.

[therother]

Thought that this might be of interest. It is some preliminary research on the effects of agents on bribing.

[Delwack]

in terms of a window you have for timed things, like, say "accept or we will attack" or "will provide military assistance against", do you have any clue of what kind of window do you have for fulfilling your diplomatic obligation? (Obviously sooner is better, do you have any clue where people begin to not believe you?) And also, for "provide military assissance" does that mean you have to initate an attack, or can you provide assissance if the opposing faction attacks you. Does sieging a city (initating, capturing, or simply maintaining a siege) count?

Also, do you have any clue in how canceling treaties affects your diplomatic relations worldwide? (obviously again it hurts your relations with the faction, but I think there might possibly be some minor world-wide negatives).

[player1]

(14 July 2005 edit) This diplomacy guide has had its first update in quite a long time. Not much, but the Bribe and Protectorate sections have been rewritten to bring them into sync with 1.2. I will be continuing to revise, trim and add to the guide on an ongoing basis.

I remain interested in getting feedback on (or feedback INTO, more precisely) the Diplomatic Strategies section. A lot has changed with the 1.2 patch in diplomacy, so this section will need to be trimmed a bit as time progresses. If you have anything to contribute, please do feel free to contact me either via my email which is in the document itself, or via PM here on the boards.

I think that reference to Foreign Tastes diplomat trait need to be removed from the guide, sice that trait can't really be gained in the game (nor popular standing makes sense for a diplomat).

[Tamur]

Thanks player1... I'd never seen that one show up in any of my games, and had wondered if it were valid. I just yanked this, will put that fix up in the next update.

BTW, just discovered your bugpatch, quality work there!

[Soulforged]

I think that reference to Foreign Tastes diplomat trait need to be removed from the guide, sice that trait can't really be gained in the game (nor popular standing makes sense for a diplomat).

I've read the guide. Pretty useful, thanks Tamur. There's one problem however, when you talk about this trait ("Foreign Tastes") you state the following "...but they appear to be non-existent on the game itself..." that's not exactly true, if what you mean is that no character, wheter it's from your faction or another, can get this trait, certainly none of my diplomats got it, because I'm the worst diplomat ever, but I saw, in "Barbarian Invasion" with Vanilla 1.6 a diplomat from the "Western Empire Rebels" that had this trait. If I can I'll post a pic here.

[buckZor]

What about 1.3 patch changes? Anyone seen a thread that focuses on Diplomacy changes with 1.3?

[Tamur]

This guide should probably be archived on a dusty shelf somewhere, but, inexplicably, it continues to be downloaded about fifteen times a week. I edited the first post to reflect the fact that I haven't maintained it for nearly three years.

So, buyer beware!

[cncguides]

I see all of these posts about the diplomacy guide but I cannot find the diplomacy guide. Can anyone help??