The Hardest Faction

[Bogdanovist]

I've played three campaigns now, a Scippi, Germanic and Spanish. All short campaigns on VH/VH. I have to say that while the spanish campaign was pretty hairy for quite a while, it's a little dissapointing how easy the game turned out to be. Admittedly I shamelessly exploit the gliches in the AI such as it's inability to deal with forts on the campaign map, or with skirmishes and sieges in battle. It's still a really enjoyable game though, despite some flaws.

Still I'm hoping there is a faction or two out there that is a real tough nut to play with for my next campaign, so I'd like to know what everyone considers to be the hardest faction to play with. I've left the romans off the poll, and probably should have left some others off as well, but I don't know much about a lot of the factions.

[DisruptorX]

Spain. Numidia is challenging, but spain is the hardest out there. I can't even contemplate beating the spanish campaign without bribes.

[solypsist]

word on the street is Spain - and i think it has to be modded to be played.

[Sin Qua Non]

With Spain you get fantastically crappy early game units... Iberian infantry, town militia and round shield is about it until your cities slowwwwwwly grow. Mercs can fill the gap, with money you don't have anyway. Once you get scutarii and bull warriors its pretty smooth.

[lars573]

No matter how hard spain is parthia is harder. Even if you cheat as the parthians your still on a shoe string most of the time.

[Bhruic]

Hmm, odd, I found both Spain and Parthia very easy. I suppose they would be hard if you tried to play them with infantry, but as long as you go cavalry, you are fine.

As Spain, kick Carthage out ASAP. Then make peace. They will agree, and likely not bother you again, as you are too far away, and they will be too busy. Then you've only got one enemy - Gaul.

As Parthia, you've got your back to the wall, somewhat literally. HA are excellent, and there are plenty of smaller factions in the neighbourhood to take on. Armenia is a good choice, as they get HA too, so you don't want them expanding.

I voted for Thrace. Poor economy to start with, as the others, but also poor cavalry. As cavalry tends to rule the game, that's a disadvantage. Especially as your neighbours tend to be quite expansionist. The only advantage they have is that the Romans (well, Brutii, mainly) tend to keep the neighbours busy. But then you have to deal with the Brutii, which can be worse.

Bh

[Silver Rusher]

Let's not forget here- Armenia is tiny. Tiny army, tiny economy, tiny cities, the only thing not tiny about them is the Carpathian mountains, which offer good defence in many cases. You are surrounded on practically all sides by factions much much stronger than you- the Pontics, the Parthians, the Seleucids and the Scythians. As a rule, the Parthians always attack you, wars usually start up when you as Armenia attacks Phraaspa. BIG MISTAKE. The Parthians practically own this settlement, even though it's technically rebel. It takes only two turns for them to conquer Media. And for Armenia it would take at least 4 or 5, meaning that by the time you are close enough, it belongs to Parthia, which means that you are transgressing and will undoubtedly cause a war, which you are definately going to be the loser of, no question.

The thing about Numidia is that although it may be hard to manage, you are in for a slow defeat which means you do have time to tips the scales in your favour. Numidia basically starts with no navy, and building one is obviously the key to defeating Spain. Egypt is not so easy though...

[Lonewarrior]

Numidia, pretty hard, I found Spain challenging too, but you only get one vote.

[Medieval Assassin]

Numida

[Turin]

Spain is by far the harder faction than Numidia IMO. For one reason only... Rome. The hardest enemy for Spain is not the Gauls, but the Julii. The Romans always invade with general armies making them hard to bribe. Also the hastati are a hell of a lot toughter than warbands, your roundshields can't hope to take on hastati even with repeated charges, those Roman bastasrds just stand up too well to it. Another point that makes the Julii hard to fight is where you fight them at. Since they always land at Osca, you have a hard time reinforcing and retraining your men cause Osca is so underdeveloped and grows slowly.

With the Numidians, you can make peace with Carthage and keep it so you only have to worry about Egypt. The Spanish threat is little cause they bring so few troops and your light armies can take them on no problem in the desert where you have the natural advantage. The Egyptian chariot archers are a pain but with enough light infantry (i.e. skirmishers) You can hold you own.

[Bhruic]

Also the hastati are a hell of a lot toughter than warbands, your roundshields can't hope to take on hastati even with repeated charges, those Roman bastasrds just stand up too well to it.

Er, what? I'm not trying to be insulting, so don't take this the wrong way, but if you can't defeat hastati with round shields, you are using them wrong. Round shields eat hastati for breakfast. Then they have principes for lunch. A successful cavalry charge into the rear of a hastati unit routs them most of the time. And even when it doesn't, you can usually pull back and charge again.

Another point that makes the Julii hard to fight is where you fight them at. Since they always land at Osca, you have a hard time reinforcing and retraining your men cause Osca is so underdeveloped and grows slowly.

A more valid point. There are a couple ways you can deal with this. Someone suggested forts, which can work quite well.

With the Numidians, you can make peace with Carthage and keep it so you only have to worry about Egypt. The Spanish threat is little cause they bring so few troops and your light armies can take them on no problem in the desert where you have the natural advantage. The Egyptian chariot archers are a pain but with enough light infantry (i.e. skirmishers) You can hold you own.

The problem with that strategy is that Carthage is going to fall to the Scipii. That means that unless you have pulled off the opening game quite well, you are going to be hit by another (quite powerful by that point) faction. Having to face the Romans and the Egyptians is a daunting proposition for any faction.

Bh

[Silver Rusher]

Wow, if I just tried out Numidia and I have to say, they are super hard! Their cities are just so far apart, it takes forever to get anywhere! Plus, it's basically impossible to develop because of the rubbish economy. Numidia does train some quite cost effective units though.

On top of that, basically everyone wants to attack you, with the exception of Carthage.

If I could change my vote now I would.

Oh, and I have played Spain before, and I know what they're like but Numidia is much, much harder. And Spain does also get the best non-roman infantry type, the Bull Warriors.

[Oaty]

All cavalry armies suck if you are using the kill rate mod. wich to me is more realistic and more fun than just taking a bunch of cavarly and gang raping units 1 at a time. It still can be done with the kill rate mod but much riskier and the price heavier.

[Turin]

In response to BH... Hastati do not rout that easily you can throw in your round shields as hard as you like even to their rear and they will still hold. Of course you'll loose a quarter of you rouns shields in the charge and even morewhen you pull out to charge again...

[praetorians cavalry]

The Numidian.Poor selection of units,lack of money,surrounded by much stronger factions,moving armies around is also very difficult.

[Red Harvest]

In response to BH... Hastati do not rout that easily you can throw in your round shields as hard as you like even to their rear and they will still hold. Of course you'll loose a quarter of you rouns shields in the charge and even morewhen you pull out to charge again...

That is not how you use round shields vs. hastati. You hit them with two units of cav at once (preferably one in the flank or rear.) No need to pull back and charge again, the infantry will already have routed. Immediately charge the next closest infantry with the cav and repeat until there is nothing left to face That is what I do on VH/VH and the Roman infantry crumbles very quickly. I take losses during the first rush or two, after that the AI is in group rout mode.

[Maltz]

I haven't voted yet because I haven't played all the harder factions to really tell which is the hardest.

In terms of my own experience on VH/VH with the current "top 3": Numidia, Spain and Carthage, my own progess is Spain (slowest) > Numidia (took Rome in 9 yrs) > Carthage (took Rome in 4 yrs). Slowing down means the AI will produce more troops to cause more problems, so I guess it can also mean the hardest.

I would say Spain is probably the hardest. Elephant makes all the difference for Carthage, while jav cavalry is the key for Numidia.

[Silver Rusher]

What about Bull Warriors? Best non-roman melee infantry in the game (excluding beserkers).

[aw89]

hastati are deadly for round shield's they used 5 sekunds to kill off all but 1 (large units). they charged, lost most, retreat all dead and the last routing. (med-med)

[Red Harvest]

hastati are deadly for round shield's they used 5 sekunds to kill off all but 1 (large units). they charged, lost most, retreat all dead and the last routing. (med-med)

That is improper use of cav... Attacking with a single cav unit doesn't make sense...and round shield only get +2 for charge, so pulling back and charging would be about the worst thing one could do. With cav you get to attack two on one, the one in front is just a holding force, while the other hits flank or rear. It is pretty easy to do on Very Hard.

[Maltz]

As Numidia, if you attack Carthage very early and take (just occupy) the Carthage city, the game will start to look easy very soon. (please refer to my Numidian experience in the RTW guide forum)

I guess the intuitive way is to ally with Carthage, but... AI has no feeling anyways.

[Tyrac]

There are alot of ways to make any faction much harder. Most of these involve NOTdoing the things which can be considered "exploiting" some of the glaring AI weaknesses. Doing things which the Computer AI cannot handle.

Also in doing things that give unrealistic results for doing them.
Some of them are very obvious and you know you should feel guilty for doing them and others are not so clear.

Selling map information. Just do not do it. You may as well be using the give money cheat at the start. It is simply a bad game mechanic not a clever tactic.

Pause during combat. Never ever pause, not even in those moments when you yell at the screen "WTF IS THAT WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT!!??!" as your units go the totally wrong way or your archers brutally gun down 3 units of your best cavalry. :) The stupid AI never pauses, why should you? Your abilities outshine the AI by such a huge margin that no one should ever need the crutch of the pause button. Fighting the AI is like Napoleon(you) vs. a mildy retarded kid with very fast reflexes(the AI.) :)

Bribery. This is just silly. Don't bribe anything, ever and suddenly the game is alot harder.
I could see alot of variation in this policy though. When I play a roman faction I let myself bribe other Romans on occasion. The price is always very high and it is the only way to "attack" them, pre civil war that is, post civil war, no bribing. Also it is not so unrealistic to bribe outlaws, slaves, and rebels. These forces would obviously be very vulnerable to being bought off. I never do it but I could see how some would. Maybe I will start to.

Using a small unit, say of cavalry, to tie up vast numbers of AI armies. Yes, you can completely block off a mountain pass with one unit of fast cav. You can also take a smal cav army and run in circles all around the AI controled lands tying up tons of their resources. The fact is the AI is unable to handle these tactics. If the AI did this to you, you could handle the problem. However, the AI CAN"T deal with it, ever, so don't do it.

Forts. An extension of the problem above but not nearly so obvious is forts. The AI cannot handle forts. Yes its lame and yes the AI SHOULD be able to deal with them but it cannot so don't build them especailly not in mountain passes.

There are many other very clear things that should be avoided. It is safe to assume that anyone that goes out and buys this game and then reads these forums in depth is smart enough to know what is taking advantage of game mechanics and what is a "clean" game and win.

In a perfect world and a perfect game you should not have to impose any limits on yourself to have a challenging and exciting game. In the Total war games, and all games of reasonable complexity that rely on A.I., you do.

Of course sometimes brutally crushing the AI using all the weapons you have can be fun too. :)

[Red Harvest]

All cavalry armies suck if you are using the kill rate mod. wich to me is more realistic and more fun than just taking a bunch of cavarly and gang raping units 1 at a time. It still can be done with the kill rate mod but much riskier and the price heavier.

As it should be. I still haven't tried the mods yet, but I am looking forward to the "moderating" influence it should have on cav. I also hope that it will strengthen the AI (a little) since it should be less susceptible to group routs.