Archers and Slingers need tweaking

[zhuge]

Ranged units like archers appear to be much more potent in R:TW as compared to its predecessors. I've read that ranged shots do not take into account unit defence (only factoring in unit armor and unit shield (if shot from front/left)). Perhaps they should since archers appear to do a boatload of damage.

I was playing as the Greeks lately and had the chance to use both Cretan Archers and Rhodian Slingers.
First off, I feel the range of the Cretan Archers is just plain obscene (you can literally shoot units a mile off) and allows you to easily outrange any regular archers. The fact that they also seem to kill about 5 men per volley makes them really deadly.

As for Rhodian Slingers, they simply do tons of damage and their range isn't shoddy either. When I took a wall-less Ancyra (occupied by 3 enemy units of Naked Fanatics and 1 unit of Barbarian Cavalry, all units had 2 experience), my Rhodian Slingers basically did all the work (contributing 130 kills while my 2 Generals mopped up the rest). The town square AI needs to be tweaked so that units adjust their facing (to get a shield bonus) or to charge instead of just quietly being stoned to death.

Since the patch isn't out yet, here's a fervent request to get this tweaked. IIRC it wasn't so bad in M:TW and archers were handy but weren't really that effective in S:TW. Currently Cretan Archers and Rhodian Slingers tend to be a bit shafted due to the Stamina bug (they both have Good Stamina and as a result from the bug now tire more easily). Once this bug is fixed in the patch, they would be even more formidable.

Settings at VH/VH, with Cretan Archers and Rhodian Slingers having 2 and 1 experience respectively, normal unit size (40).

[RZST]

they do seem overpowered, maybe lessen the damage? but thats as far as i can go.
the slingers range is perfect since i well placed cavalry charge usually kills em.

also, the center of the town "feature" or bug is quite annoying. the enemy just sits there waiting for its doom.
i make up for this little feature by not using missile units in the town center, rather i just bumrush it o.o;

[Sin Qua Non]

Does anyone know how many arrows each unit carries, or if they differ from one archer type to the next? Archer Auxilia seem to be able to shoot through an entire battle (a short one anyway). I've never counted how many salvos they actually get off on average.

[Oaty]

IMO archers are'nt all that tough. When I face an archer heavy army I march up and as soon as I see the enemy knocking there arrows I run all units and they get 1-2 rounds off and then they start getting choped to pieces.

The problem with the A.I. is that they sometimes have too much of a defensive mode. I walk up and start shooting them. Now the A.I. is'nt programmed to figure out if they are going to get shot to death or not. So they just stand there.

What needs to be done, possibly prebattle is a calculation if they can sit back or if they need to charge home as soon as the missiles start coming in.

Hopefully this will be one of the A.I. improvements in the patch.

[Sin Qua Non]

If anyone wants to know, it looks like foot archers get 30 arrows each, horse archers 40, chariots either 40 or 60, and elephants get 60. I just shot through the description file, and everything looks pretty standard for all factions.

[zhuge]

Just checked the files myself and yes, it looks like foot archers have 30 shots. It's the same for better archers like Cretan Archers except that regular Archers have 120 for range and Cretan Archers have 170.

As for slingers, most foot slingers appear to have 40 shots. It's the same for better slingers like Rhodian and Balearic Slingers except that regular Slingers have 80 for range and both aforementioned better slingers have 120 (which puts them on equal footing as regular archers).

Hmm... I can't really remember how many shots regular archers got in M:TW, much less the number of shots available to Samurai Archers in S:TW. Been quite a while since I last played those games. I could be badly wrong but I don't seem to recall getting that many shots for Samurai Archers.
In any case, there was a formula on a website I recall that mentioned the effectiveness of Samurai Archers and their experience (honor) and it seemed to say that after getting the first couple of stars, their shooting accuracy/damage doesn't improve much at all.
Also shots made at long range don't seem to hurt enemy units much back in S:TW. So if you hadn't many shots to make, sometimes it was worth closing a little to get a more comfortable range rather than shooting at first opportunity. In R:TW, those Cretans can shoot from a mile off and still inflict about the same casualties and they weren't even on higher ground, which also incidentally appears to affect range less than in previous games.

I'm not sure why ranged units are more effective in R:TW. Maybe it's the fact that Archers get their General's Command rating added to their attack?? I believe it was just a morale bonus in previous games (please correct me if I wrong as my memory is really hazy on this one). Maybe it's the fact that they are getting more shots/more volleys per man as mentioned by other forum members. Or maybe it's the way ranged attacks deal damage and how they take into account armor, defense and penetration.

In any case, I believe there are quite a number of forum members who feel that ranged units are a dominant force in R:TW (perhaps too dominant), therefore it would be nice to have someone conduct a little research on it (hint, hint, followed by big grin)...
I know certain figures might change post patch but I think it's still worth the effort. Thanks.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

I think that in SP you can live with the apparently overpowered missile units - as long as you don't exploit it - so if you have a Roman army, only use 1 or two long-range missile units (like would be the case), and opt for velites or light auxilia instead.

My feeling was that archers had more ammo in RTW than in MTW/STW - but those figures sound about right - so may be it is just that they are far more effective - certainly in MP archers are a bit silly at the mo'. RTW had the potential to get away from the previous domination of unbalancing missile units - eg: muskets in STW, pavise arbs in MTW, but I don't think that's been achieved.

On the increase with general bonus - i should think that the attack bonus only applies to their melee capability, not their missile strength. In MTW/STW, general bonuses affected valour, so giving att/def and morale bonuses, which IMO was silly - why should having a good general make you a better killer? - morale bonus - fair enough, this follows, but bonuses to att/def don't.

[CBR]

Archers in STW and MTW had 28 ammo.

I think the regular archers are pretty ok in RTW but the super archers with very high missile attack are extremly good. Basic archers have missile attack 7 while the best archers have 15. Dont know how the numbers work though.


CBR

[SwordsMaster]

BUT in MTW you had arbalesters, pavisiers and crossbows with longer range and higher attack, so I think archers are ok.

[Zatoichi]

I think another difference between MTW, STW and RTW which has been brought up before and is worth noting is that it seems like all the archers can fire at once in RTW, whereas before it was only the front 2 ranks. This makes comparisons of damage effects etc that much more tricky. That said though, I rarely have missile units run out of ammo before the battle ends even though they're all firing more arrows per volley - I guess because the combat is over that much faster in RTW?

[CBR]

Arbalesters had the potiential for high kills but took a long time as their reload was slow and they had only same range as basic archers in RTW (120 meters)

In STW/MTW you could have more than 2 ranks of archers shooting.

RTW melee is fast and of course units can run 50% faster than in MTW so its rare that RTW archers run out of ammo if enemy close in for melee quickly.


CBR

[Zatoichi]

Oh OK - my facts don't stand up to scrutiny! I'm sure there is a limit to the numbers of rows of archers/crossbows that can fire in MTW simultaneously though - although apparently it's more than 2...

Also, in certain situations, like firing in oblique lines etc, in previous games only certain archers from the unit would fire, whereas now all the archers will fire, again increasing the overall effect of a volley.

But yeah, the general speed increase can neutralise the added potency of archers - unless your trying to chase down an Egyptian army with a bunch of Sacred Band infantry... pincushion-tastic!

[ChaosLord]

I'd suggest trying the Total Combat mod ( http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/?mod=210 ) I've been playing with it in my latest Pontus campaign and it seems to work out pretty good. Archers/Slingers are only really effective versus unarmored/lightly armored targets. You'll only take out 1 or 2 per volley on heavily armored/shielded targets.

[Maltz]

Indeed. The AI needs some concept of dodging arrows as a whole. I wonder whether it is possible to add a concept of "enemy's arrow range" and try to stay out of it unless totally necessary.

For example, when defending a siege, AI just runs around on the street to become mobile targets of enemy archers outside. One time I had 6 regular archers in the army, and they shot down everything, including generals, that joined the parade behind the gate.

If AI knows to hide behind a tall building and wait till enemy rush in the gate, that will be more interesting. :)

[Medieval Assassin]

In Shogun archers were the best unit you could reallyl field, they were great.
In Medieval, The archers were firing blunts, I didn't like them.
In Rome, I'm really happy with standard Archers and Slingers.

For one, after playing Shogun for 2 years, I really like the archers in Rome.

[Satyr]

I don't really think that the problem is archers. I think the problem is the AI is incapable of dealing with archers if there are more that 1 or 2 of them. In MTW the AI would NOT split his forces up to chase archers unless he had cav to do it with. In RTW the AI will break his lines into many pieces to chase archers with units that can never catch them. This allows the archers to chew them up with ever being engaged. If you add in the ability to flank those broken up lines with cav and the AI completely fails to provide a battle at all!

I did have a nice surprise by the AI last night though. I was attacked by a vastly superior force of almost entirely infantry. I had 2 units of slingers and 4 cav against about 12 mostly heavy swordsmen. I ran around a lot and managed to break the AI up into many pieces. Then I could charge all my cav into a unit from different directions and wipe out a company while losing very few units. There were, what I assumed to be, 2 units chasing one of my slingers around and when I attempted to avoid the corner one of those turned out to have cut the corner and they were slingers too and just anialated my slingers. One of the only nice ploys I have seen the AI make, or maybe they just got lucky. Anyway, I did win that battle (barely).

[Red Harvest]

I agree about the missile attack being too high. It appears that we have two types of archers, ones with fairly ineffective simple bows and then the killer units with high missile attack values and long range that are compound bows. In this time period, archers should be fairly well nerfed. Instead, I find that all the high end archers can be very devastating, with something like 10% casualties per volley for the high end units. I've had no-armour units with small shields (like balearic slingers) take 15% casualties from elite archers on the first volley at full range! I've seen that happen consistently. The archers are less effective vs. armour but can still cause quite a bit of damage vs. hoplites and Roman heavy infantry.

I guess I need to try running a battery of tests to see what happens in a few situations. Right now, rank effects don't seem to work like MTW, and most men within a unit will fire even when perpendicular (sometimes ones at the extreme end are out of range and will not fire, although they draw back.)

The one negative for the elite ranged units is that they kill more of my own than the whole enemy army can kill combined, even though I micromanage them. I kill 1,000 enemy; they kill 20 of my men, my ranged units take out another 20 or so of their own brethren..

[NightStar]

Come on....if you got 80 archers shooting at mostly unarmored unit of course they are going to take plenty of casualties. I have often had my Cretian archers shoot at armored units and killing no one. I started to hate those heavy panzered hoplites (armored hoplites) cause they are almost invulnerable to arrows (but a flaming missile from an onager gets the everytime ) It makes me hate them so much that I'm going to play the Greeks next time around :)

[Red Harvest]

Come on....if you got 80 archers shooting at mostly unarmored unit of course they are going to take plenty of casualties. I have often had my Cretian archers shoot at armored units and killing no one. I started to hate those heavy panzered hoplites (armored hoplites) cause they are almost invulnerable to arrows (but a flaming missile from an onager gets the everytime

No, not in a single volley at 150 meters. Slinger formations are loose. Archers were not this effective. Rifled civil war volleys were not this effective and those men were standing in single ranks in the open at the same range.

Cretan archers score about 2% casualties per volley versus armoured hoplites. This is actually fairly high. Interestingly, they cause the most damage at range before the unit switches to phalanx.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I'm new to the game, so I was playing as Jullii on "easy." I had captured Thapsus, and had a garrison of mostly hesati, and archers. A Carthagian Army(2000 strong) camped outside my city. I attacked them before they attacked me.

I sent all my archers onto the walls, and killed every single man on the battlefield, except the general and his bodyguard. When he started galloping away, I sent about 200 horsemen after him. He got away though. I only sustained six deaths, who were accidently shot in the back.

[hoof]

Don't forget one other difference between archers in RTW vs previous games: They are extremely hazardous when placed behind the front line. In MTW, it was standard practice for me to put my archers behind the front line. In RTW, I never, ever, let them fire from behind the front lines, I have to put them out in front to give them a clear shot. This partially offsets their increased effectiveness vs MTW, IMO.

[zhuge]

Regular Archers and Slingers get 7 and 4 respectively for Missile attack.
Cretan Archers and Rhodian Slingers (both of which seem to always start off with 1 experience) get 12 and 10 respectively.

Elite units rack up kills more easily and therefore appear to advance in ranks faster. After 7 turns and 7 battles, that 1XP Cretan Archer unit has made 476 kills and is now a 5XP unit with 16 Missile attack. By comparison, a regular Archer unit in Syracuse which also participated in some heavy fighting Vs Scipii and the Carthaginians has now gained 2XP from 156 kills from 5 battles in 7 turns.
I will agree that Archers don't do too well against well armored foes. It takes many volleys to cut down a General's Bodyguard unit. Cretan Archers usually average around 1-2 kills per volley against them. But in the early game, there really aren't that many well armored units and getting both Cretan Archers and Rhodian Slingers for the Greek campaign means that armies having them will be able to execute early rushes easily Vs masses of Militia Hoplites, Light Lancers and Peltasts.

Also take into account the fact that the AI likes to plug Wooden Wall/Palisade breaches with units and rush around while getting shot for fun and also that town square AI again allows free murder while standing still and getting shot from the back. So all in all it really would be nice to have some adjustments somewhere, be it AI or just simply reducing stats.

It's true that friendly fire is more of a problem in R:TW but I tend to put archers a little in front of infantry or beside them anyway so I haven't found this too irritating. A quick charge by fast enemy cavalry has the risk of decimating the archers but if you time it right, your archers should retreat in time for your infantry to charge forward and engage the enemy cavalry.

Anyway perhaps I should stop playing and wait for the patch. The devs appear to listen to the fans so who knows they might overhaul the AI quite a bit...

[bhutavarna]

i do think that archers and slingers are overpowered, although they're not invulnerable. on my second campaign, i reduced the number men in archer units to 30 on normal setting. so that i get 60 per unit on large setting. i think this mod actually works well. the arrows are still deadly, but as a whole the archer units are not overpowered.

[lancer63]

Archer and slingers are ok in almost every aspect to me. I like to close up on the target unit whenever I can and most misiles will be deflected by armor and shields when present. I have even seen foot signifiers, the guy to the right of each unit acting as non-com/officer, take shots and keep standing, which I like to think of as 'injured but efective'. Most projectiles miss or are deflected for what I can apreciate.
I can even accept friendly fire while moving or in a melee situation. But what really needs tweaking imho is when a archer/slinger/skirmisher unit kills a friendly standing not two feet away!! It happens to me every time I'm not careful not to overlap unit formations. On one battle I lost 4 hastatii men that way. They were overlapin an archer formation and the 4 archers behind them shot them dead on the first volley and the enemy was at extreme range.
That's one of the many examples I've seen. Which is also a fine way to increase exp. chevrons on foot misile units. Just park a peasant unit directly between the enemy and your slingers and they'll be cut to ribbons as easily as if a gatlin gun had been behind them.
Unlike MTW I never position misile units behind others with the 'fire at will' button on. It's too dangerous.

[Red Harvest]

zhuge,

The reason general's bodyguards last so long is that they have both very good armour and 2 hit points each. So it takes awhile for "kills" to accumulate before they begin falling. You have to kill each man twice before he falls. So if you hit a random 10% per volley, you can see that it will be a few volleys before you have much probability of 2 hits on the same guy. Same thing happens with chariots and elephants vs. ranged units. That is why you don't see javelins or slingers or archers killing elephants after prolonged attack. Melee on the other hand tends to score multiple hits on a single character in rapid succession (because of localized killing, much of the unit might not even be engaged.)

[Alexandr III. Biges]

Maybee the only problem with archers is AI. What I remember, in MTW the unit taking arrow damage began to move, took lose formation, even try to move into a forest, but now... I understand Romans were tough guys, but just simply stand and accept bitting by a few archers?