Legionary 1st Cohorts

[KiOwA]

Can you retrain Legionary 1st Cohorts after they have suffered losses? I've never commanded them, other than in custom battles, and I'm curious as to whether they are a unique unit, or simply a normal Legionary Cohort with that eagle banner.

[Sinner]

Like mercenary units, you cannot retrain First Cohorts to replenish numbers, only to add weapon and armor upgrades.

[Sin Qua Non]

They are special cohort units which are given by the Senate as a reward. As far as I know, the eagle confers the same morale bonus as would be given by the general. Of course, if they are destroyed, then the eagle is considered lost, and a morale penalty equal to a lost general is conferred. As far as I've heard, they cannot be retrained, which is kind of odd. Not sure about this 100%. I don't know whether they are going to let retraining happen in the patch, or if something else is planned.

[therother]

I saw a post from Jerome saying that he liked the idea of making them trainable only in Rome. Don't know if the idea will make the patch though.

[Nelson]

I saw a post from Jerome saying that he liked the idea of making them trainable only in Rome. Don't know if the idea will make the patch though.

This would be a very good idea. I also think we should get one when the Marian reforms occur.

I have never seen a 1st Cohort unit despite being a complete toady and bootlick to the Senate. In fact, I have delayed taking Rome just so I wouldn't shut the door on ever getting an aqulifer. The whole eagle concept is good and Roman players should have them more often. Every legion had one after all. Not as a buildable unit but more common than say, NEVER! Maybe it could be linked to how many cities you own. One eagle per 5 or 10 or something like that.

[Jagger]

I am guessing that it would not be too hard to make them buildable as any other unit. Just stick them in the export_descr_building file.

Haven't tried it, but I think it should work. Make a high level building required to keep them rare. Or require a lower building and use self discipline in building them. Would probably make them retrainable as well.

I have never received one either.

[Quillan]

It works, Jagger. I've done it with my game. Personally, I would rather see Praetorians only trainable at Rome, and First cohorts be freely trainable, or perhaps limited by the number of cohorts in the game (1 in 10, for instance).

[Sin Qua Non]

It works, Jagger. I've done it with my game. Personally, I would rather see Praetorians only trainable at Rome, and First cohorts be freely trainable, or perhaps limited by the number of cohorts in the game (1 in 10, for instance).

That's a really interesting idea. I like it.

[lars573]

So how many threads does this make about first cohorts? My count is about 5, but there could be more.

[Sinner]

In case it's of any help to anyone, there's a guide here how to mod in First Cohorts so that they're only buildable in Rome.

[Maltz]

I have a newbie question regarding this legionary 1st cohorts:

I personally have never seen a Marius reform because I've just played short campaigns with the Roman factions, and the only long Brutii campaign I had, I finished 50 provinces & Rome before my imperial palace was completed.

This time, I never exterminate anything, and simply enslave 90% of the conquered population into my capital. So now my capital has a dynamic population of 20k+ (with a -10% growth rate, but I keep feeding it with new slaves ).

In the next turn I will be able to start building my imperial palace there. However, I now get the message that the people are welcoming me to take Rome. I wonder, if I declare war on Rome before Marius reform, then am I going to lose the chance of training any post-marian unit, or some other unit that has to be unlocked only by leg. 1st cohorts?

I heard that only after you get leg. 1st cohorts you can start to train something good, and leg. 1st cohort is a gift from Senate. So, do I get leg. 1st cohort as a gift for completing a mission? If so, what kind of mission will it be - like taking a settlemtn / blockade a port sort of thing? Then, it seems I have to keep good relationship with the Senate.

Thank you very much.

[Sinner]

There are no known units that are 'unlocked' by the First Cohort.

The Reforms have to have occured before you get a First Cohort as a reward since they're post-Reform units, so if you attack Rome before then, then you're out of luck. In the unmodded game you can only get them as a Senate reward, however it appears to be totally random as far as both mission type and senate standing as to whether you get one or not.

[YAKOBU]

Hi everyone

Maltz: I've never had a first cohort either and have managed to reach the Marius reforms, although I finished the game soon after. I think we need to slow the game down by not conquering quite as fast. I believe the more we conquer, the more the people like you, but the less the senate like you. A slower game will mean that hastati, principes and triarii all get used before the Marius reforms, as well as a lengthier end-game with the post-marius units. I must admit I rushed my first game just to unlock all factions as well as to see the end screen. I think after the initial blitz to get my early provinces I will rest a little longer and gently build up, maybe just harrassing the enemy rather than wholesale slaughter.

[Maltz]

Thanks for the responses!

I was trying to see how fast I can make the reform happen if I enslave everything. If the completion of the first imperial palace means the Marius reform, then I will have it soon.

By that time I will roughly have 40 provinces, then I can challenge Rome and the other 2 Roman houses with perhaps some of the new units. I also plan to finish the map this time, so there will be more uses for the new units

The Senate was kind enough to reward me with a war-elephant. I am already preparing an army around Rome, and called faction leader Flavius Julius back from Byzantium. In about 5 turns this army will be ready to challenge the Senate.

[Oaty]

How about evrytime you build an imperial palace it comes with 1 free first cohort. You can also retrain these guys there for replenishment. With an imperial palace limit it would be hard to get too many of them unless you turtle and milk the game.

[Quillan]

I like that idea, Oaty. It sounds like it would be easier for the programmers to implement than other restricitions. Anything that doesn't limit the number of them, even if it restricts where they can be belt, would still eventually allow a huge quantity into the game. Having modded my game to allow them to be built, I do see the AI Roman factions with them. They build a few, but they haven't made like Macedon and the light lancers. I've seen, at most, 2 in one stack.

[Somebody Else]

Perhaps if a legionairy cohort achieves a certain valour level, or makes a certain number of kills in one battle - something similar to the "man of the hour" feature...

[pyrocryo]

i don't if i'm dreaming or not but i once managed to replenish my hoplite and cretan mercs on rhodes.

i think the idea of replenishing the 1st cohorts is ok. my suggestion is

(1) They can only be retrain in your own capital (providing you have the 'same' level building capacity)

-or-

(2) you can only merge it with another 'same level' unit

oh, and who agrees with me that the first cohorts should be praetorian only?
the ability to train praetorian cohort should be limited (it's absurd since its main duties are actually the Consul's bodyguards).
So another suggestion

1. A faction can only train Praetorian if and only if one family member are currently consul.

[Nelson]

i
oh, and who agrees with me that the first cohorts should be praetorian only?
the ability to train praetorian cohort should be limited (it's absurd since its main duties are actually the Consul's bodyguards).

In the game the first cohorts are associated with the aquilfer. Since all legions had aquilfers and eagles had nothing to do with the Praetorian Guard, I would say no, 1st cohorts should not be Praetorians. A legion had it's eagle regardless of the presence of a consul.

The term "praetorian" was used in many ways.

[pyrocryo]

my argument actually is this.
since first cohort units are 'elite' and 'unbuildable' units, it's a little absurd if when you go to war, among the 6 cohorts of your legion, you have 5 praetorian or urban cohorts and a single, 'lorrica hamata' equipped, First Early Legionary Cohort. I mean, this is quite absurd that the unit with the best morale, 'best trained', are equipped with lesser equipment than others.
another option is that the chevron experienced or killed/casualties ratio criteria. Say, if a unit reach gold chevron, they automatically get an aquilfer. Or if the unit kill significantly more than they received, they get an eagle (for proving their valor).
if not, then at least give it an icon that shows the unit is 'Elite'. That's why i argue that first cohorts should Praetorian (since in reality this actually an elite although i don't recall their do battle in cohorts).
If we stick with history, then after the Marian reforms, all legions should have aquilfer. Since the game it didn't, CA should adjust a little bit

~On a personal note, i'm complete dejected when i found out that the Great Man is actually insane during his last consulship.

[Somebody Else]

New idea - one eagle per battle, to be allocated to the legionnairy cohort with the highest valour / combat effectiveness.

Similarly for a standard type device for other factions...

Any takers?

[Nelson]

my argument actually is this.
since first cohort units are 'elite' and 'unbuildable' units, it's a little absurd if when you go to war, among the 6 cohorts of your legion, you have 5 praetorian or urban cohorts and a single, 'lorrica hamata' equipped

~On a personal note, i'm complete dejected when i found out that the Great Man is actually insane during his last consulship.

I never considered this angle, pyro. You’re right, this would be a goofy circumstance.

The issue is that a “one size fits all” approach can’t work historically. A Praetorian unit is wrong for an early Marian legion but as you say, an early cohort as 1st cohort would be out of place in an army of urban cohorts.

However or whenever they arrive, 1st cohorts could be composed of whatever the best cohort unit is that you can currently build after which they could be upgradable.

New idea - one eagle per battle, to be allocated to the legionnairy cohort with the highest valour / combat effectiveness.

Similarly for a standard type device for other factions...

Any takers?

Somebody Else, if there were set minimum number of cohorts that had to be present I would agree that this could work. Eagles were not like Mary’s little lambs. They didn't go everywhere a cohort went. I doubt if one cohort would take the eagle from its’ shrine just to march out with a few town watch to put down some rebels. The eagle had religious importance such that losing one was sacrilegious. I don't know enough about other faction's habits to agree that they should get eagle equivalents.

A new algorithm to dynamically assign eagles is probably too complicated for CA to consider. But what the hell. We can still ask for the luna.

[CGS]

You could also be given an eagle when you have 10 cohorts in the same stack. That would be very logical, as a full legion would carry its eagle with them.
One of the cohorts would be the first one, and carry the eagle. And if you don't have the full legion, you lose the eagle, as it would have been kept in a safe place waiting for an important battle.
The first cohort should be bigger, so it could take soldiers from the other cohorts or you could pay for the extra soldiers.
Just my thoughts.

[Oaty]

Heres another idea. Each general comes with a first cohort. But that would seem to maybe bring too many problems with it along with possibly an absurd upkeep when you add the cost of all your generals together. The only problem is you could take a stack of 10 generals but that could be countered by only the lead general brings the first cohort to battle. Good idea to me but may be able to be abused too easily.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

linked to the thread on unit availibility, i would prefer it if units like 1st legions were buildable but limited - therefore if every 10th cohort you built was automatically a I cohort, this would make sense. There is a wider arguement here though. Cohorts should only be available to build in italian cities. Likewise auxillaries should only be available in conquered territories - and these should correspond to the nation it belonged to.

I know why CA didn't include features like this, but it would have added to the depth of gameplay no end.

[Butcher]

You could also be given an eagle when you have 10 cohorts in the same stack. That would be very logical, as a full legion would carry its eagle with them.
One of the cohorts would be the first one, and carry the eagle. And if you don't have the full legion, you lose the eagle, as it would have been kept in a safe place waiting for an important battle.
The first cohort should be bigger, so it could take soldiers from the other cohorts or you could pay for the extra soldiers.
Just my thoughts.

This would also prevent to some degree armies with too many top heavy units (UC, PC etc), giving you an incentive to use basic legionairies.