Initial Patch Thoughts

[Colovion]

So the patch came out today (yay) and I downloaded it and tried out a few custom battles. I must say I am impressed with only the impressions I got from playing a dozen or so custom battles in trying various things out.

1. Phalanx units seem much more formidable, instead of pivoting their entire unit to one side to have just one section of the line coming in contact with the enemy the whole unit is more fluid and will pivot to face and push into whichever unit I had them attack.

2. Battles are still over very quickly. I guess before I stopped playing I'd been using a kill/runspeed reducer so it just shocked me when the first battle was over in 5 seconds (or less) once melee had initiated... and that was with just vanilla Gaul and Roman units up against eachother with no Cavalry.... I tried many battles, and never got one that lasted longer than 60 seconds (or even close to that).

3. I couldn't test the Battlfield AI because there's no time - it's just charge = death = end of battle. In the phalanx testing though, there was a buildup of units on one side and the AI pulled that around to flank me - so that was a good sign... unfortunately by the time that he got around my flank his entire army was routing....

4. Javs really need to be thrown immediately once in range - there's still the problem of not being able to get a volley off because the skirms will halt, wait, get ready to throw - oh no, the enemy is too close - back up and try again... etc etc.

So far, I like - but I won't be able to play it without more modification. There's no point to a good Battlefield AI if it's nullified by the speed of battles.

[Shottie]

I dont want to make this a big deal, but everyone complained about Rome without a patch, and now that its out, people are still complaining. You should thank everyone in the CA team for making this, even if it isnt up to your standards, they cant make everyone happy.

[Bhruic]

The AI is still pretty stupid on defense. I attacked a group of 5 falxmen with about 6 armoured hoplites, 4 units of archers and 2 generals. Admittedly, I was going to win, but the AI still did nothing. I moved my archers into range (they were out front) and started shooting. Took out 2 units completely. I moved one of my archer units forward, and finally they decided to attack with 2 out of the 3 remaining units. Of course, they took about 10 steps before they routed. Why a unit is set to stand under archer fire and not do anything, I don't know.

And now for my big rant... Why is it that companies insist on breaking things when putting out patches?? I had my keyboard configuration setup just the way I like it. Install 1.2, and suddenly it's broken. I had "1", "2", and "3" set as the keys to control gamespeed. Not only were they removed, I can't even set them again. Having to go back to pushing the stupid-hard-to-click buttons is a real pain. Minor point? Maybe. But there was no reason to break my key configuration, and even less reason for me to be unable to set them. A patch is supposed to make a game work better, not introduce new annoyances.

Bleah. Ok, I'm done.

Bh

[Red Harvest]

I've played a bit of custom and campaign mode.

Good stuff:
1. Storms are working now (right on the clock tick, but working nonetheless.)
2. Phalanx mode seems a bit more natural, but haven't tested enough to fully confirm it.
3. Pri/sec bug seems to be fixed.
4. Friendly fire seems to work intelligently now.
5. Cav charges seemed a bit weaker--not sure of this though.
6. Fire arrows did not kill frame rate.
7. Amok elephants are now a very bad thing!
8. Desert Axemen have taken off half of their transparent aluminum armour.

Not so good:
1. In my 2nd campaign battle an enemy captain charged right into my line. And the AI still sent in forces piecemeal.
2. In the same battle the AI let me march up the hill and take away its high ground.
3. The AI also sat there and let me pelt it with archer fire for awhile before it moved forward to attack, then withdrew. Then turned back and finally attacked.
4. Archery is still in sore need of a good nerfing.
5. Fire arrows still work during thunderstorms.
6. Archers still fire from multiple ranks deep (haven't checked it they still shoot from 16...but I suspect so.
7. Cav upkeep is still cheap.
8. Almost all erroneous Egyptian stats have been left as is.
9. Light auxilia (and I think cav auxilia) still appear to have pila in their animations and unit cards. Stats show javelin figures though.
10. Battle is still much too fast.

All in all, it looks like an incremental improvement getting it a bit closer to MTW. Still a long way to go. I'm going to try to hold off from modding it for a few days, but there is a lot that needs to be done.

[GeWee]

Personally I'm glad they didn't change the kill speed. If you want the battles to last longer bring more men to the grinder...

[Red Harvest]

Personally I'm glad they didn't change the kill speed. If you want the battles to last longer bring more men to the grinder...

Uhhh...yeah...it actually works the opposite of that. Single unit match ups often melee much longer. Big battles happen fast and you don't get much opportunity to issue orders.

Guess it keeps those with short attention spans happy though.

Sheesh...

[HicRic]

My initial patch thought was "Wow, 56.2mb???" Most patches I've downloaded for games are much smaller.

I don't think the patch was supposed to turn the AI into a godly general, but more aimed at fixed numerous niggling issues, which judging by the readme, they have. They never intended to stretch battles out longer by reducing the kill rate or anything. I'm disappointed to here a tale of another suicidal general already though.

While battles in RTW don't last as long as MTW or STW battles, I've not had a battle melee last five seconds unless it's heavy cav. vs. pesants. And in a fair, matched fight the battles I fought (this is in 1.1 btw...I'm still downloading 1.2) my battles don't seem incredibly impossibly fast. Faster than MTW/STW, and faster than I might like, but never lightspeed. I've not tried the Total Realism mod, either-perhaps my perspective would change if I had.

[Jambo]

Well spotted RH! The charge of cavalry was indeed reduced a little. :)

Phalanxes are lethal now btw!

[GeWee]

Uhhh...yeah...it actually works the opposite of that. Single unit match ups often melee much longer. Big battles happen fast and you don't get much opportunity to issue orders.

Guess it keeps those with short attention spans happy though.

Sheesh...

Of course "single unit match ups often melee much longer" than when large armies clash. It's because the single units don't get flanked.

Sheesh...

Anyway, the reason why battles are over so quick isn't the kill rate, it's the fact that low-valor units rout as soon as the other side seems to get the upper hand.

Big battles do last longer unless you don't have reserves or reinforcements thereby letting all your units rout at the same time. If you rally your routing troops and keep a second line with fresh troops the large battles last way longer than smaller ones.
They don't last as long as battles did in real life no, but then our armies are like one tenth of the size of armies back then...

The only kill rate that would benefit from a change is the one for routers but that's a different issue.

[Colovion]

one sweet thing that I noticed.

I grouped 4 units, told them to go somewhere. Then I pressed R.

THEY ALL RAN! Wheeee

[ToranagaSama]

Of course "single unit match ups often melee much longer" than when large armies clash. It's because the single units don't get flanked.

Sheesh...

Anyway, the reason why battles are over so quick isn't the kill rate, it's the fact that low-valor units rout as soon as the other side seems to get the upper hand.

Big battles do last longer unless you don't have reserves or reinforcements thereby letting all your units rout at the same time. If you rally your routing troops and keep a second line with fresh troops the large battles last way longer than smaller ones.
They don't last as long as battles did in real life no, but then our armies are like one tenth of the size of armies back then...

The only kill rate that would benefit from a change is the one for routers but that's a different issue.

Arggggghhh! Sorry, I just hate it when those who don't know what they're talking about talk as if they do.

Longer Battles are NOT about having *longer* battles, but about having HIGH TACTICAL battles. Unmodded the RTW does not allow for Tactical battles---PERIOD!

Simply slamming reserves/reinforcements is not a substitute....

Also, in STW and MTW, there were several other variables, in addition, to *valour* that effected a unit's ability to Stand and Hold (not rout). A player with a FULL comprehension of the variables and with experience could compensate for unit *type* and valour weaknesses, as well as using those same variables to maximize his advantages. TERRAIN played a *much* greater part in the outcome of a battle.

More to the point of what irks me about your post: do you *think* you have more experience, more knowledge, more contemplation, of the Total War series than the poster you replied to?

I mean really some people know what they are talking about and some people don't; and then there are those who *think* they do.

~ToranagaSama

---

Opps, GFX707, said it all so much more succintly.

Oh, I see, Colvion, bless him, honored you by responding in precisely the manner you demanded, an explanation. The man took his time and effort, and this is all you have to say:

I do enjoy them. I'd enjoy them more if it was possible to fight 50,000 vs 50,000 battles that would last half an hour but until we have computers capable of that I'll settle for what I have. IMO it's better to have realistic kill speeds than to nerf them to simulate that each unit is 10 times larger than it is...

Why don't you honor him (and the rest of us) and respond to the points he brought up? HINT: Tactics!!!

BTW, what is realistic about Vanilla combat speeds?

Ban me if you will, but RTW Newbies are a clueless butch.

~ToranagaSama

[GFX707]

Personally I'm glad they didn't change the kill speed. If you want the battles to last longer bring more men to the grinder...

Sorry, that comment was just stupid.

[GeWee]

Personally I'm glad they didn't change the kill speed. If you want the battles to last longer bring more men to the grinder...

Sorry, that comment was just stupid.

Wouldn't it be better to explain why you think it's stupid instead of making a stupid comment of your own?

[Colovion]

Wouldn't it be better to explain why you think it's stupid instead of making a stupid comment of your own?

If you don't know the reason for it being an ignorant comment then there's more problems here than your comment being overused and thoroughly disproved.

[Boudicca]

Just a short experience analysis, didn´t have much time for testing....

I' ve struck several AI controlled villages in Gaul with my Julii Army. Whenever the AI had only several troops assembled in the central square, I tried to shooot those trooops down with my Archer units. The nice thing: The AI units in the central square ran towards my Archers and attacked them, so that I had to draw them back. I' ve never experienced this before. Still, the Computer is without a chance, but it at least takes a challenge.

I will analyze the patch during the next few days and see what other users experience...so far I'am happy to have it, even though I would like to continue my Campaings in SPQR, RTR and VLAD mod....

It is so stupid that it is already 23.37 h in Germany...damn it!

@totalwar.org: thanks for the additional downloads...I had 90kb/s download speed!!!

[Maltz]

I am honored to spot the good news today. Haven't played RTW for a while...

I just browsed through the readme and didn't seem to find:

(1) The reversed stamina bug fix. Spartan hoplites got tired like little whiny girls. Is this done?
(2) Replay campaign battle (as in custom). Guess hope is gone...

Thanks.

[CeltiberoMordred]

I am honored to spot the good news today. Haven't played RTW for a while...

I just browsed through the readme and didn't seem to find:

(1) The reversed stamina bug fix. Spartan hoplites got tired like little whiny girls. Is this done?
(2) Replay campaign battle (as in custom). Guess hope is gone...

Thanks.

1 - The reversed stamina bug has been fixed, as well as reversed heat_stat

2 - No, replay campaign battle is not available, but at least now they are accurate.

[IceTorque]

just when i thought i was over my TW addiction along comes v1.2

minimal ui interface: love it
fatigue: has anyone noticed how quickly units recover, a quick smoko and they are ready for round 2, excellent.
smooth scrollin strat map: very nice.

the bad things: i don't care they are far outweighed by all the good stuff.

[Macattak1]

I have not read this whole thread as yet. Just the first page.

But I can not even play now since I installed. Had to uinstall all and then re-install to get it to play fro a 15 turns of a new Camp. Then I went to bed, got up and did the same thing it originally did.

Loads to Task bar but never splash screen. Whether I put in the CD rom to initiate the auto play or just double click. No go.

I uninstalled, wiped C:\, checked in Reg HKLM\SW but nothing there. Then did fresh install. I hate this!

I updated my 9600 drivers. Defraged again. Tried compatibility mode. NOthing works. SP2? Been on their for a while.

P4 2.8, 1 gig, 9600 on a fairly fresh build with only 5 games and MS office and thats about it...

Any help appreciated. Buyt that is my thoughts and experience on the patch.

That there does not seem to be an Add/Rem for the patch is odd...