I bet you don't believe this: cavalry charge is broken.

[HeresiarchQin]

First off, this thread is exactly the same as the on I posted in .COM. But I know here have more people who do care about bugs and actually will do some research on them, so I decided to post it here too, in case the original thread in .com sunk to the bottom. Here's the link to it: http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...ID=23928.topic

I've always surprised by how useless Companions are. They have a huge 16 charge bonus but their charge attack simply doesn't show any significance difference from, say, Round Shield Cavalry, who have a pathetic charge bonus of 2 for a cavalry. So I did some tests and I was shocked by the results.

At first I did some custom battles, used one group of Silver Shield Legionaries to pin down one group of Urban Cohort and then let one group of Companion to charge the Urban Cohort from the rear. I did the same test several times, either with the SS Legion + Companion combo and the Legionaries + Praetorian Cav combo. The results were disappointing: despite that the Companion's charge bonus is 7 points higher than the Praetorian, and minus the 2 extra normal damage the Praetorian have, the Companion's full charge damage is still 5 points higher, the Urban almost always suffer the same damage from either the Companions or the Praetorian. Sometimes it's even worse, the Companions could kill less in the first charge.

After that I did the same test with various cavalries, like the Round Shield, Macedonian, Light Lancers, Cataphracts, Sacred Band and so on. Except for the Cataphracts who did kill more Urbans in one hit thanks to their huge mass, all the other cavalry did more or less the same damage with each shock, despite how much differences their stats are.

Then I did another test. This time, first, I edited the Sacred Band Cavalry's charge bonus to 1, and kept the Companion's stats the same, and used them to charge one group of falxmen. The results were frusting beyond believe: the Sacred Band Cavalry with virtually no charge bonus at all can reduce the falxmen's number from 81 to 45 to 55 in the first clash, while the Companion's with the 16 charge bonus could kill only about 20 to 30 in the first charge!

Here I hope everyone with some patience, after reading this lot, can do some similar tests and see if the cavalry charge is broken or not. It's simply unacceptable that Companions with 16 charge does the same or even LESS damage than the Round Shield Cavalry. And please post any result you've got here.

In my opinion, if this is indeed a bug, then it's quite a serious one.

So now, go testing! Go go go! Please...

[Maltz]

First thanks for the comprehensive research work. Perhaps charge bonus is calcaculated against the defense (armor, shield) points...? (just guessing) This way, as long as the charge bonus is greater than the defense points (no armor/shield in the back), then the damage is done, and the kill number is determined by another set of formula excluding the charge bonus.

I would think of a follow-up study by charging the horses directly into the face of different infantry non-pike units (ranging from no defense to iron walls) and see the effect...

[hrvojej]

If I'm not mistaken, charge bonus factors in the calculation to see whether the hit landed. That is, it enhances the attack value to put it in simple terms. However, whether the hit landed and whether the hit killed are two separate things, the latter being linked to the lethality stat.

If the killing chance is low, you wouldn't necessarily see too much difference between the high charge and low charge units in a few tests. So, for example, if there was a 20% chance that each blow that lands also kills, that would mean that even if all blows land, killing would still be fairly low and feel random.

Now, to assert these claims for sure, one would have to do the proper stats procedure with proper sample sizes and blah blah, but it would of course be way easier if we could actually stop assuming and get info from the devs about combat calculations. But since it seems that won't happen, your guess is as good as mine (unless one of us actually gets to work and does several dozens of boring test runs, that is).

[Red Harvest]

Arg! The charge bonus is not broken. I've done my own tests of it today. It works. Your test is not apples to apples.

[The Stranger]

yeah it works fine on my comp, are you using a mod. 80 cataphracts vs 160 poeni infantry, casualties from 1st impact are 2C vs 36P. 80 Companions vs 160 poeni infantry, 4C vs 32P. don't see your problem. but 80 round shield vs 160 warband
is 6RC vs 10W

[player1]

Well, charge definetly works, otherwise I would not use Lancers for Macedonians.

[HeresiarchQin]

Charging WORKS, as you'll see people flying away, but charging bonus is BROKEN, because there is NO difference between charge bonus of 1 and charge bonus of 60. And no, I'm NOT using any mods when I was doing the tests, and I strongly advice everyone who wish to do the tests above do it this way: use only one kind of cavalry, say, Companion, edit ONLY its charge bonus, and use only ONE KIND OF target, with the fewer special abilites the better (Iberian Infantry is an excellent choice), not test one against Poeni test two against warbands. I've made a new reply in the .COM and I promise it's a good read. ;)

[HeresiarchQin]

Ok, apparently even the infantry's charging is broken as well. A Falxmen with 50 charge bonus VS A Falxmen with 7 charge bonus have NO advantage at all. At least no obvious advantage, and if there IS, then the effect is so little that's simply pathetic.

[player1]

Well, let's see:

Lancers charing Iberian Infantry: 18 soliders killed
Round Shield Cavalry charing Iberian Infantry: 12 soliders killed

Lancers charing Chosen Swordsmen: 10 soliders killed
Round Shield Cavalry charing Chosen Swordsmen: 3 soliders killed


Yep, it works for me...


EDIT:
It's pretty possible that the reson why you see the difference is that you need to understans that attack is not a lethality stat but stat of dealing blow. So if you take a unit with already high attack against unit with very low defense, it will by itself deal maximum lethality (killing maximum number possible in one blow), making extra points of attack (by charge) meaningless.


You see that in my example, that against low defense unit charge added 50% more kills, while against high defense unit it tripled it.

[QwertyMIDX]

I think he might be right, I just tried Greek Cav v. Legionary Cohort and Companions vs. Legionary Cohort. The GC killed 15 men in the charge and the Companions killed only 11.

We should all try testing this a little more...

[AntiochusIII]

Strange...is there a possibility of random? Since many people got different results...

Oh, and what map are you testing in?

[HeresiarchQin]

Grassy Flatland.

And I suggest everyone should test it more...the more, the better. I know it's tedious (heck, I've planned to play as the Macedon until I encoutered this problem and then I stuck 2 whole day doing tests and making debates about it), but the truth will be out there only more tests are made. And if it IS a bug, then it's definetly a gamebreaking bug.

Seriously, I WISH I was wrong, but the more tests I did, the more depressing I feel. This bug, if exists (which is quite obvious IMO), really ruins many good cavalries and almost all barbarian factions (as their infantry need the charge bonus more than the more civilized factions).

[HeresiarchQin]

Well, let's see:

Lancers charing Iberian Infantry: 18 soliders killed
Round Shield Cavalry charing Iberian Infantry: 12 soliders killed

Lancers charing Chosen Swordsmen: 10 soliders killed
Round Shield Cavalry charing Chosen Swordsmen: 3 soliders killed


Yep, it works for me...

Strange, I did exactly the same test like you but it didn't work for me. The Lancers and the Round Shield did almost exactly the same damage to the Iberian/Chosen. I hate to ask this but, did you use any mods?

[Zorn]

I don´t think it helps a lot if you compare companions with round shields, as there are too many other things that come into the equation.
I think it is necessary to use the same unit (and the same target of course) and modify the charge bonus. And also run a greater number of tests, like ten to get reliable results, as there is always some random factor.

[HeresiarchQin]

Yep, that's what exactly what I did (as suggested by Mike of CA, who insist that I'm wrong) and what I recommend to everyone who are willing to test.

[curufinwe_91]

Actually, the cataphracts will kill more men than companions in a charge because of its mass bonus (you know, the mail). There's a large difference between that mass and just the mass of a guy on a horse

[Red Harvest]

Strange, I did exactly the same test like you but it didn't work for me. The Lancers and the Round Shield did almost exactly the same damage to the Iberian/Chosen. I hate to ask this but, did you use any mods?

Are you modifying the file without exiting and reloading the program? RTW loads the unit file at the start, so I don't believe changes after the game has loaded will take.

[HeresiarchQin]

I assure you I'm not new to RTW and game modifications, so I can tell you the answer is: I did everything in the right way, I.E. restart the whole game whenever I want to edit the stats. ;)

[Red Harvest]

I've tested this many times now. The charge bonus definitely works, except in specific circumstances (pila anyone?) The duration is very short. The charge is spent on the enemy's front rank. This places an upper limit on how many can be killed. One problem is that the high kill rate in the game makes it tough to distinguish charge and non charge attack effects vs. lightly defended opponents. But when I use high charge values, I get ~3 times as many kills in the original clash.

[HeresiarchQin]

Red Harvest, do you mind telling me what kind of RTW are you running with? 1.2 or not? Vanilla? SPQR? RTR? EB? Or self modded? If your version do work correct, then I would like to see what may cause the nullify of the charge bonus as some if not many people see. I don't know if you will bother with this but I suggest you just try to do the following test:

Grassy Flatland
Round Shield Cavalry with 0 charge bonus VS Iberian Infantry, head on charge, double click on the infantry right after employing. Look carefully at the result of the first clash. Exit the battle. Do this 3 times.

Next, Round Shield Cavalry with 10 charge bonus VS Iberian Infantry, head on charge, double click on the infantry right after employing. Look carefully at the result of the first clash. Exit the battle. Do this 3 times.

Last, Round Shield Cavalry with 20 charge bonus VS Iberian Infantry, head on charge, double click on the infantry right after employing. Look carefully at the result of the first clash. Exit the battle. Do this 3 times.

Tedious, isn't it? Heck, I spent 3 whole days doing similar tests.

If anyone is interested, I sincerely hope you can join in this research and see if the charge bonus actually exist or not. If it do exist, then what it actually do, and how much the effect is.

And an additional note: CA said that units with the Spear attritube fighting cavalry would use the cavalry's charge bonus against that cavalry. Yet a Round Shield Cavalry with 2 charge bonus and with 52 charge bonus head on charge into a hoplite phalanx suffered similar casualities, without any critical difference. So apparently either the phalanx ignore the cav's charge bonus, or the charge bonus doesn't even exist.

If anyone insist that charge bonus do give difference, and for difference I mean big, noticable increase in casualties, not some small error due to the randomness in each test, then I would gladly to reinstall the whole game just so I can see if the original world is clean and clear.

[HeresiarchQin]

I just saw Red Harvest's post right after I made the reply above...

Ok then, tomorrow I'll try to reinstall the whole game and test it from 1.0 to 1.2 and see what happens.

[hrvojej]

If it do exist, then what it actually do, and how much the effect is.

Have you read my post above?

[HeresiarchQin]

Yep, I saw it. Though I always thought that somewhere mentioned that charge bonus gives killing power instead of chance to hit...where did you know that charge bonus helps to-hit instead of to-kill? Any info would be very appreciated. The only bad thing of this forum is there's no proper "search" function...

[Red Harvest]

Ok, I've been testing some various aspects of the charge. Lots to discuss and I think I have the answer:
I don't use any other's mods (except the horse jumping fix.) The only mods I use are my own, so I know what to change. I use 1.2.

1. Part of the problem is that for "weak units" like Iberian infantry the cav just tear them to shreds, even with no charge bonus to speak of. Is this a problem? YES. I do see this. It isn't going to matter if I give large or small charge bonuses in such cases. With a charge bonus of 1 the companions are cutting the Iberians down from 81 to 53. This is ridiculous.

So what else is going on:
2. Mass effects. These are apparent, but not great. In this test I cut the horse mass down to 2 then to 0.5. The 2 had a negligle effect, while 0.5 was measurable. Iberians dropped from 81 to ~62 on average. So it cut the kill rate in this particular test by ~1/3. Changing the mass of the rider had NO impact (tried 0.1).

3. Defense of the charging unit??? This is the problem. CA is actually using the defense of the charging unit to determine the number of kills in the charge. I cut the Companions from 17 defense to 8, and the kill rate fell dramatically, they only dropped the Iberians to 70 men on the charge.

[HeresiarchQin]

What??? Hmm...maybe because the armour rating takes part into the calculation of a unit's momentum when charging? Higher armour rating = heavier armour = heavier unit = bigger momentum = bigger damage? Maybe you should try to give teh Companions 60 armour and see if they will obliterate the guys they are charging at...I bet the sight would be hilarious (if it happens).

And what I still don't understand is, charge bonus = greater chance to hit, instead of greater chance to kill? I don't find it makes much sense...but still I would be fascinated if some evidence about it could be dug up and saw by me. If that's true...hmm...very interesting. A lot of aspects in the game would be changed in my mind.

[Red Harvest]

It is starting to gel. I just tried three tests (and repeated the 2nd one):

First Test: I have the companions 63 armour for total of 69 defense. I have them 0 pri/sec attack, and 0 pri/sec charge. They killed 0 in the charge. Yay! They did kill a number in melee as the units became tired then exhausted.

Second Test: Companions still having 63 armour, for total 69 defense. Pri/sec attack of 1. No charge bonus (left at zero.) Result: They killed 7 in one, 8 in the other.

Third Test: Companions at normal 11 armour, total 17 defense. Pri/sec attack of 1. Zero charge bonus. They killed 2.

So what is going on? The charger's defense is being incorporated into the charge attack value in some non-trivial fashion. A 1 charge attack should result in essentially no kills (my Iberians are slightly modded to have 11 total defense vs. 8 in vanilla.)

Obviously defense is not being added to the charge in a 1 to 1 fashion. Otherwise 69 defense would result in many more kills even with a 1 attack. Instead it seems to tie in as some sort of base attack multiplier.

I can't say that I'm too impressed by this implementation. The effect is that the charge bonus itself is muted, while the defense values are amplifying the overall charge effect. Non-intuitive in the extreme!

[player1]

And what I still don't understand is, charge bonus = greater chance to hit, instead of greater chance to kill? I don't find it makes much sense...but still I would be fascinated if some evidence about it could be dug up and saw by me. If that's true...hmm...very interesting. A lot of aspects in the game would be changed in my mind.

Well, I think that attack rating of the unit governs chance to hit enemy unit (and thus inflict damage). And that charge bonus just gives bonus to attack rating.

Attack rating, by the way, isn't supposed to be a speed of kills. High attack ratings with give quicker kills, since more hits will be landed on the average. But just bumping chance to hit higher and higher will lead to saturations of killing ration.

[hrvojej]

And what I still don't understand is, charge bonus = greater chance to hit, instead of greater chance to kill? I don't find it makes much sense...but still I would be fascinated if some evidence about it could be dug up and saw by me. If that's true...hmm...very interesting. A lot of aspects in the game would be changed in my mind.

Charge bonus is added to the attack value. Attack value determines whether the hit has landed, and not whether the hit has killed. Another stat determines the latter probability.

Search might not be perfect, but it still works. If you do a search on "charge bonus added" for example, a lot of good old posts will come up.

For example, repeated assertions by people doing the tests in MTW that 5 points of charge are roughly equal to 1 point of melee attack. Which translated into your tests wouldn't reall make much of an impact. The +3 attack isn't all that much to be able to discern with a few tests and considerable variability in distribution of data stemming from randomness (if you know statistics, you know what I mean). And if it's true that around 10 points of difference in combat stats make for a 100% improvement in RTW (which is double than it was in MTW where 5pts = 100%), plus all other things about needing to be at full speed to get the bonus etc., and the effect could really be easy to overlook unless you have a good sample size and controlled test environment. Or an insider knowledge of the combat calculations.

We don't have any hard info on RTW, since we don't have any info whatsoever from the devs on battle calcs in RTW , but we have to draw conclusions from what little we do know from past and present. And from that there is no real evidence that it's bugged IMO.

[Crandaeolon]

And what I still don't understand is, charge bonus = greater chance to hit, instead of greater chance to kill?

That's how it has been working in the previous TW games. When charging, the charge bonus is added to the attack value, and the combined value is then compared to the target's defense. A formula is applied to get the % chance for a successful strike, which is then confirmed by the lethality value. Since most units have only 1 hitpoint (and most weapons have a lethality of 1), the chance to kill is usually the same as the chance to hit.

That's roughly how it's _supposed_ to go. I'm following this thread with great interest... Too bad I'm vacationing now and can't help with the testing.

[Puzz3D]

Cranda,

That's true in STW and MTW a hit = a kill except for the general who has more than 1 hitpoint. In RTW, lethality can be a fractional value between 0 and 1, but it appears to me that hits of fractional lethality do not fractionally reduce hitpoints. So, you can get a lot of hits and not kill anyone or even cause any damage.