Imperial Diet

[Stuperman]

*6th elector of Bavaria stands*

I must point out that the feared clauses 6-9 of the proposed Charter amendment are all trumped by clause 10, by giving ultimate control to the people Maximillian Mandorf has ensured that no hold out Dukes destroy the empire from within.

The 6th elector, walks off, looking to refil his beer stein

[ArchdukeEvan]

i care little about renegade Dukes... without the Chanceler to support them then a dukes troops cant be effectivly used... but the weakening of Imperal armys to mantane household troops is stupid...

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Elector Mandorf, please allow me to invoke the words that you said in this very building so long ago:

Say we find ourselves at war with no nation but France. Strategy would dictate that we concentrate great efforts in subduing the French and acquiring their lands. Yet, this would lead to expansion that is only geographically contiguous with the House of Swabia. Would you then insist that wars be started with the Danes, Hungarian, and Milanese in order to create even distributions? If not, would you end up giving Paris to the House of Austria?

Now, if we were faced with a full-scale invasion from, say, Hungary. Austria would be tottering and it would take quite a bit of force to repel this invasion. Now, in this situation, I could either:

a) Immediately take initiative and send all forces to Vienna post-haste, or
b) Write four letters to the Dukes of the respective Houses kindly asking permission to use their House Armies to help stop the Hungarian invasion, wait for the letters to arrive, and wait for the replies of each Duke.

Rest assured, I shall do my best to create and uphold these House Armies. But a time of crisis is a time of crisis.

[OverKnight]

Otto van Kassel sits and listens to both his Steward and his future father-in-law, the Kaiser, announce their candidacy and trade verbal barbs. His expression is stern, but there is little clue as to what he is thinking. Glancing first at the Kaiser and then at Maximillain, Otto takes a deep breath and rises to speak.

My lords, while I respect both men who are running for Chancellor, I must throw my support behind Kaiser Heinrich. He is the best choice.

The Kaiser has promised to finish the wars against Milan and Venice. There has been talk in the Diet, edict 5.15 proposed by Maximillian, of offering peace to Milan. Bah! The only peace we should offer them is the peace of the grave! They are excommunicated and they only have two islands to their names. We must finish them while we have a free hand! Thanks to Count Sigismund, we have the ships available to scout out Corsica and Sardinia and transport our armies to them. Once we destroy their army outside Florence it should be easy to mop up their last possessions. We should not give them the time to recover or rearm. I ask that another seconder come forward for Edict 5.3 which calls for the elimination of Milan.

As for Venice, until we destroy their power on the mainland of Europe, they will be a constant threat to the Reich. How many sieges on Vienna must we endure? These curs betrayed their alliance with us! They must be crushed. Their defeat must be so total and humiliating that the rest of Europe will realize the folly of betraying the Reich! The Venetians are excommunicated as well and we must strike now. Therefore I second edict 5.4 and I hope the next Chancellor will drive them into the sea!

Once we have established our hegemony in Italy, we will be able to move troops to other fronts that require them, but first we must finish the job. The man to do that is Kaiser Heinrich! I ask that you support him.

Otto nods to the Kaiser and sits.

[Ituralde]

Mein Kaiser, Dukes, fellow Electors!

I see that many Edicts have already been proposed by this noble Assembly of men and I would like to add certain Edicts of my own.

With our wars continuing on several front we have managed to excommunicate two of our enemies, but the Poles and the French, should they attack, still have full support by the Pope. We don't know how much this will change in the future, but seeing our current standing the Pope is still displeased with our actions. So while I believe that if we follow the instructions of this Diet everything should pan out well I would like to propose Edict. 5.24 that deals with our relationship with Pope Gregory.

Edict 5.24:
The future Chancellor will avoid excommunication by Pope Gregory by following Papal cease and desist orders to the letter.

While the Pope's power has been waning, excommunication would still strike a strong blow at the Empire. I am not suggesting that either candidate would go this road, but better to be safe than sorry, as they say.

Another thing that I consider important and has only been lightly touched by Edict 5.4, which I second, is the war effort against Venice. As you all know I have come in touch on several occasions with their armies and it would be a special privilege if I could lead this war against the Venetians.

Once Charter Amendment 5.1 has passed and the Ducal armies are built I could order my own Ducal army forward, however the time frame until this unit is ready appears too long for me. The Venetians have thinned their forces by their repeated attack on Vienna and now is the time to strike at their depleted forces. Otto von Kassel is sitting on the doorstep of Venice itself and if his help is not needed in the south against the Milanese besieging Florence he should strike as soon as possible. In case he should have to withdraw I would like to propose the following Edict though:

Edict 5.25:
Duke Leopold is to be put at the head of an army large enough to seize and hold Zagreb.

Edict 5.26
If Venice has not fallen until the events of Edict 5.25 have passed Duke Leopold is to be given enough men to assault and conquer the city of Venice.

An advancement as far as Ragusa could be possible, but we have to see how far we can stretch in the oncoming war. All the time a large enough garrison in Vienna is imperative to discourage any ambitions by the Hungarians.
Considering them and the Eastern front, a young spy named Sifridus von Swabia has been loitering long enough in my capital and he could be put to better use watching our Eastern border.

Edict 5.27:
The spy Sifridus von Swabia is to be sent to the vicinity of Budapest. If he can infiltrate the city without a considerable risk for his life he should do so. Otherwise it will suffice he is active in the countryside surrounding Budapest.


Now let me adress the Edicts already put forward in this session. First I'd like to adress Edicts 5.18 and 5.20. While I support the merit of these Edicts, I fear that the Charter forbids the Diet to rule on building queues. These are the responsibilty of the Dukes and Counts. So while these Edicts can not be passed I urge every Count and Duke to follow their spirit none the less. Our coffers have been drained by the ongoing wars. In my whole Duchy one meagre Town Watch was built during the last Chancellors midterm due to our complete lack of funds. While we may be waging wars on wall fronts, we have to insure that our infrastructure keeps pace with our rapid expansion. A huge but underdeveloped Reich will not help us in the long run. That's why I will second Edicts 5.15, 5.4, 5.2, 5.19 and 5.23, although this last is partly covered by Edict 5.9, which have not been supported yet.

I guess I agree with most other Edicts that have been seconded so far. Although I would like to remind the Electors that all Edicts concerning alliances are a noble deed, but that the past has shown us how little such alliances can count once push comes to shove. Especially an alliance with Hungary, while desirable will not secure our Eastern front completely. A much more valid defense is that we show a strong face to our enemies. I have mentioned this earlier, but I feel this also needs to be edictified if I'm to go on a longer campaign.

Edict 5.28:
To prevent Hungarian aggression against the Austrian capital Vienna it's garrison has to kept at a minimum of six units, capable of defending the city.

That should be all gentlemen, I thank for your patience.

Duke Leopold sits down.

[FactionHeir]

I realize however that the Milanese are on their knees and should be hanged, quartered and burned for betraying us to set an example. I thus withdraw edict 5.5

I am very sorry my fellow electors. A clerical error slipped into my last words and I meant to withdraw edict 5.6, not 5.5 as it is the Milanese that should be eliminated and the poles made our slaves and buffer zone.

In addition, I will second edicts 5.16, 5.23 5.27.

I will also suggest that as edict 5.29:
The chancellor shall endeavor to send emissaries (without needing to train new ones) to contact other nations we have no contacts with to obtain alliances, and trade rights. Our payment shall be no more than map information and he shall aim to make all contacts pay appropriately for spending our time and efforts on them.

Reasoning: We shall ally with most other nations we have few contacts with and that are far away to possibly gain profit from it (or at least no loss) and if they chose to betray us, it will hurt them more than us, because their reputation will be spoiled.

[TinCow]

Kaiser Heinrich, as you surely know it takes weeks and even months to move armies from one side of the Reich to the other. This is infinitely longer than the day or two that it would take to receive permission from your Dukes. Indeed, if they refused you could call and emergency session of the Diet, convince the Electors of the need, and overrule the stubborn Dukes by a majority vote, all without slowing down the arrival of the armies whatsoever. A dislike of paperwork is a poor reason for corrupting Ducal independance.

I will second Edicts 5.24, 5.25, 5.26, and 5.27. I will not second 5.28 because I believe that this can be achieved by the Austrian Household Army. Should I become Chancellor, I would ensure that the Austrian force was assembled and made available to the Duke of Austria most quickly.

[Northnovas]

Member reviewing the long list of edicts and seeking some legal procedures with the clerk...

Chancellor, I would like to second the edicts 5.25 and 5.28

Also I would propose an Edict 5.30 in the spirit of 5.18 and 5.20 that had some seconders and not to conflict with the Dukes' responsibilities to govern that we encourage economic growth in cities taking the best advantage of their location being inland or port and build the most appropriate building for economic development.

After a quick review I will second Edict 5.29 it is in the same spirit of Edicts 5.21 and 5.22 with very little cost.

[Kagemusha]

Franconian electors enter the Diet and take their seats. Dietrich Von Saxony takes the stand:

"Mein Kaiser, Prinz, Dukes and fellow Electors.After private talks with my fellow Franconian Electors,we have come to an agreement. We have decided unanimously that Franconia will support Maximillian Mandorf, as the next Chancellor of the Holy Roman Empire. We feel that he has earned that right ,by creating his charter amendment that solves the problems we have been facing in the war against the Polish. As we stand together in battlefield,we stand together also here in Imperial Diet and this time we stand together behind Maximillian Mandorf."

Dietrich Von Saxony bows to the Diet and takes his seat among the Franconian Electors.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: Electors, I fear we are suffering from legislative overload. I propose:

Charter Ammendment 5.2: Each Elector may only propose TWO edicts or charter ammendments per Diet.

We have around 20 electors, so potentially could still have 40 edicts. However, the cap will force Electors to prioritise and think carefully about their proposals. They alway have the opportunity to persuade others, perhaps especially members of their own House, to propose motions on their behalf.

Do I have two seconders for this Ammendment (it will require a 2/3 vote to pass)?

[Kagemusha]

Dietrich Von Saxony:

"I will support, Charter Ammendment 5.2.. I think the Diet should not be overloaded with Edicts. We should consider carefully the Edicts,before we address the Diet with them."

[AussieGiant]

Striding into the Diet session the 2nd Elector of Austria begins

Kaiser, Dukes, Gentlemen,

I leave for a few days and upon my return this place looks like the accoutants and lawyers have been getting you all drunk!!

Over 25 edicts!!

This is madness. We are in danger of talking ourselves to a stand still!!

I'm not going to propose another edict but I will say this.

Only Dukes or Stewards should now be able to propose edicts. Of course the Kaiser and Prinz Henri are included.

Formulate your ideas in the Household thread or petition the other 3 men directly.

As for the edicts themselves...well luckly I own a Legal practise in Vienna and I bought 10 of my best here. Once they scan everything and give me the summaries I'll make myself heard.

You are all more than welcome to use my lawyers. They are 200 florins per hour gentlemen...a very fair price I must say.

Taking a seat the 2nd Elector throws a stack of papers at his 10 lawyers and shouts

Read those you blood sucking bastards. I need a summary on my desk by tonight!!

I need to at least look like I know what I'm talking about when I stand here next time!!

Ten very worried looking man stream out of the Diet session whispering together intently.

AND DO SOMETHING USEFUL WHILE YOUR ALL OUT THERE AND ORDER ME A DRINK!!

All this talking is driving me insane.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: Consultation with the Diet scribes has revealed that a limit of two edicts per elector would have done little to reduce the volume of legislation we must address. I feel the 2nd Elector of Austria's proposal is a little too restrictive on lesser nobility who may nonetheless have fine ideas. Therefore, I am revising:

Charter Ammendment 5.2 (revised): Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose THREE House edicts per Diet provided that they have previously securing the backing of two other members of their House.

I believe this ammendment will reduce the number of minor items of legislation, giving us more freedom to focus on the key issues of grand strategy and diplomacy. It will leave Electors with some individual freedom to propose an edict on issue on a burning matter close to their hearts. In addition, the House Edicts will provide some added purpose for the recently established House Diets (OOC: Duchy of X threads).

[OverKnight]

Otto smiles, a rare sight these days, at the second Elector of Austria's histrionics and rises to speak.

I will second charter amendment 5.2.

I will also call again for someone, besides myself, to second edict 5.3. We must finish the Milanese while they are excommunicated. If we don't, we will regret it when their gallies come to our shores to raid in the future.

I will also second edict 5.25. Duke Leopold deserves to lead an expedition against the Venetians. It is time he brings fire and destruction down on them! As Prinz Henry has expressed a desire to enforce edict 5.13, I do not think edict 5.26 will be needed. Don't worry mein Duke, I will teach the Venetians a harsh lesson in their capital.

Edit: Posted before the revision, but I will still support it.

[AussieGiant]

Raising an eyebrow at the Prinz and casting a chuckle towards Count Otto the 2nd Elector begins

My Prinz, your compasion is immense, I might add of course that "I AM" lessor nobility by definition, and I have nooooo problem with the harshness of my concept. However I will bow to your wisdom and benevolence in this matter.

My Dear Count Otto,

Good to see you again. You seem to have a good spring in your step today!!

I'll second edict 5.3 for you...

...of course I really have no idea what that edict is about, as my blood sucking lawyers have not finished reading the reams of paper we have produced here.

Still, anything you propose will be of sound judgement in my opinion.

[OverKnight]

Otto chuckles and says from his seat:

Second Elector of Austria, a good jest, but edict 5.3 simply calls for wiping the Milanese off the map, I doubt you will need a lawyer to explain that to you. I am grateful for your support.

[Ituralde]

Duke Leopold stands to face Otto von Kassel:

I am sure that you are well capable of dealing with the Venetians in their capital and Edict 5.26 was only intended for a scenario where you won't be able to finally crush the capital of those traitors.

Also with all these politics I fear I have missed to congratulate you on the engagement with my sister Elsebeth. My father has chosen well in giving his daughter's hand in marriage to such a superb servant of the Reich!

[TinCow]

*Maximillian Mandorf stands, an exasperated look on his face.*

If Count von Kassel wishes to stump for Edict 5.3 then I suppose I should similarly promote my own Edict 5.15, which still needs one more second. For the sake of those without their own armada of attorneys, I shall recite the text of the Edict again.

Edict 5.15: The large Milanese army outside Florence will be destroyed. After this is accomplished, we will seek to establish a ceasefire with Milan, so long as one can be obtained without cost to the Reich.

With three wars already on-going and a fourth being threatened in the West, the notion of continuing our assault on the already defeated Milanese is ridiculous. The army outside of Florence is their last force on the mainland and is composed of nearly all military might they can assemble. The Kaiser will surely eliminate it entirely, leaving nothing but their island holdings.

Yes, we could invade those islands, but it would be a lengthy process and require the investment of resources that are badly needed to deal with the Poles, Venitians, and French. Our fleet is small and will require several years to ferry over a large force of men (OOC: fleets can only transport 1 unit per ship) and both islands are home to castles. It could certainly be done, but what it the point, Electors?

There is no doubt that Milan has paid severely for their attack on us. Nor will they be a threat to us after the mainland army has been crushed. Let us end this war, make the Milanese pay us tribute, and divert our Italian armies to the places they are needed the most. We seem to all agree that the Austrians must be supplied with regiments to allow them to advance against the Venitians. How are these regiments to be prepared any time soon if our armies in Italy are sent elsewhere?

Be reasonable, gentlemen. There is a limit to the treasury which we are near to exceeding. We must be at least somewhat frugal in our campaigns and Milan is the least important of them all at this point. Let us use them as a source of revenue, not a further drain on our coffers. So, please, second Edict 5.15 and vote in favor of it when the time comes.

[OverKnight]

Otto shakes his head, and rises to speak.

I must respectfully disagree with mein Steward. He says that the Milanese will be nearly finished after we crush their mainland army. Well, if they're nearly finished, then why not finish them completely? We already have the ships, and I'm sure a small to mid-sized army will serve to seize both Corsica and Sardinia. We can convert these castles to towns and due to their position in the Mediterranean, they will pay for themselves in a few years.

I doubt the Milanese will accept an offer of peace on terms favorable to us, and I would not face a revived threat from them a decade from now. We must finish the job!

[Kagemusha]

Dietrich Von Saxony takes the stand and starts reading from a scroll.

"I hereby second following: Edict 5.15,Edict 5.24,Edict 5.25,Edict 5.26 and Edict 5.29..Thank you."

Dietrich is about to walk back to his place,when he turns around and says:

"And i renew my support on the current form of Charter Amendment 5.2."

[TinCow]

Tell me Otto, do you believe that you can milk more florins out of the decrepit, back-water settlements on Corsica and Sardinia than you can out of the developed areas of Venice, Zagreb, and Ragusa? That is what you are favoring, my friend, for by diverting forces from the Austrian campaign you will most surely severely delay the capture of the first two and probably prevent altogether a march on the latter.

[OverKnight]

A few years delay at most Maximillian, it is a small price to pay to be rid of the Milanese forever!

Surely you are not undermining your own skills as a prospective Chancellor by exaggerating the difficulties?

[FactionHeir]

I believe that edict 5.3, which I proposed, is very well worth going through with as having 2 castles on islands is a perfect staging point for crusades and invasion fleets to Iberia and Africa alike.
As Mandorf pointed out, the enemy army near Florence is the last straw of the Milanese. As such, sending only a small expedition force to the islands should be enough to crush the little troops the Milanese still have left, no?
Also, if I remember correctly, each ship may ferry two regiments and 6 regiments should be more than enough to crush them, especially if we send one fleet forward to scout out their defenses.

If we end up not wanting the two islands as castles, we may well expand them into flourishing island trade posts with links to most other regions. [OOC: Those islands converted to towns can give ~3k-4k on vhigh taxes at minor city level already]

[TinCow]

It is not a question of difficulties, Otto, it is a question of finances. As you have said yourself, the Milanese island settlements will have to be converted to towns before they can become prosperous. This will take many years and thousands upon thousands of florins before the Reich even begins to see a return on its investments. I find it unlikely that these places would even make up the costs of converting them and constructing trade facilities before the next election for Chancellor.

Contrast this with Venice, which is already the most prosperous trading city in all of Christendom, Zagreb, a well developed city in its own right, and Ragusa, a castle of a quality to rival any in the Reich. These places will immediately bring wealth to the Reich, while the Milanese islands will only drain the Reich further for many years to come. This is simply poor economics, especially if we can obtain tribute from the Milanese as well!

If we cannot obtain a ceasefire on favorable terms, Edict 5.15 does not require that we sign one at all. However even in that situation it is still in our best interests to delay any move on the islands until the other fronts have been stabilized and the treasury reinforced, for the same reasons as before.

[AussieGiant]

Receiving summary after summary from his team of lawyers the 2nd Electors face begins to frown

Well...if these are the summaries, then god knows how the rest of you deal with all this information...

...still, I'm never lost for words normally.

My Lords, as per bloody usual we seem to be trying to pull this Reich in 5 different directions at once.

Having seen the troop compositions I'm totally bloody committed to saying that taking an offensive war to any more that ONE country at this time is totally irresponsible.

Given the Ducal Armies will be created in one form or another it seems totally unrealistic to pursue more than one offensive campaign at this time.

We should allow the House Armies to be created and for this Diet session PICK ONE nation to attack with our fifth standing army.

What say you all?

Likewise, our Kaiser reluctance to support sections 6 to 9 of the Amendment 5.1 would effectively mean a Ducal army could consist of one regiment.

NOT what anyone had in mind I'm sure.

Hell Mandorf, I'm a fair man...I'll second edict 5.15

At this point one of his Lawyers leans down and whispers into the 2nd Electors ear, looking back at the assembled nobles he slams his fist onto the benches in frustration

CHRIST ON THE CROSS!! This is what I'm talking about!!

[Jalf]

I second edict 5.15. We should punish those who attack us, certainly, but we can not afford to spend the better part of a decade pursuing every last remnant of their nation. Our few available troops are needed more urgently in at least two other wars, in addition to the requirements posed by new household armies should the charter amendment pass. The last thing we need then, is to send valuable troops to sail the seas looking for more enemies.

I will also second Charter amendment 5.2. Unless we slow down the flow of new edicts, we'll have to move soldiers away from the front, to act as scribes for us.

[ArchdukeEvan]

stands to speak

I must say i would support Admendment 5.2...

Also... I will say this, and do so with out an Edict... i dont know what number have been proposed... and i havent even read them all yet... anyways... I must express a concern over Poland... we have proposed edicts to attack them... but maybe we should push this further... into oblivion... with-in the next chancelership... this would free up thousands of men to fight elsewhere... now... this is an idea not an Edict... so with that said I must continue to another topic...

I must leave this Diet... i apologize to my most beloved conutry men... but i have urgent matters... family wise... my wife is... well take a guess at that one... laughs and wish to be there...

i will be gone for atleast the next three days... I hope i can make it back before the voting...

so once more... i must leave this diet and its mass of edicts... for a less paper-clutered area...

Good-bye

bows to the asembled royalty... and walks out

[TevashSzat]

Maximillian makes a fine point regarding the Milaneseislands. Although the people of Milan will remain a thorn in our side for years to come should they be spared, it does not make financial sense to assault them. To do so requires the diversion of troops from the front against the Venetians who are currently much more of a threat and those two insignificant islands will leech off much resources before they will become of use.

Furthermore, the Sicilians have always expressed interest in those two islands as well as the Moors. Should those two islands be occupied not only will we waste money trying to make them profitable, but also valuble troops must be wasted to garrison and protect those islands from aggressive behavior coming from other nations.

[Northnovas]

Excellent point by the Elector of Swabia. Defending the islands after a conquest may not hold their value. I feel the large army on the mainland is the immediate threat to be removed and enhance the security of our cities in Northern Italy.

[FactionHeir]

Fellow electors, I would like to ask for another seconder for edict 5.8, to allow training of two assassins for the Reich. With 5.16 having two seconders, this would not be possible without the support of 5.8 as well.