Imperial Diet II

[TinCow]

Ease the public order problem? Did you not personally approve Pope Accattus yourself? I see no guarantee that order will be restored even if Cardinal Otterbach becomes Pope. There can be no reconciliation with the Pope until this war with the Papal States is over. As of now, we have no possible way of ending this war unless we give them a province from which to rule. It has been made clear that none of the Reich's provinces will be donated, so accordingly there can be no peace. Cardinal Otterbach will not reconcile us because *ahem* he will find himself at war with us the moment he takes the Papal throne. I fully expect the Reich to remain excommunicated until we capture Jerusalem and give it as a gift to the sitting Pope.

Furthermore, I will not support any legislation of any kind that calls for the slaughter of future Popes. You have caused this war, Kaiser, and you should have to suffer its 'annoyances.'

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: I welcome Duke Leopold's candidacy - his attitude to the crusade and the Venetian threat to Zagreb has given me cause to believe he will support the noble aim of that endeavour.

However, I wish to inquire what his plans are for the citizens of Venice, should his Household Army take the city. Does he plan to exterminate them as was discussed at the last full Diet session?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

If Cardinal Otterbach does not reconcile us, I believe it will be because of your treatment of... him rather than my actions. He is forever indebted to me. He will not forget that.

Also, my informants have told me of a Bavarian edict proposal in the works that I agree with. Therefore, let me kindly propose it myself in order to free up room:

Edict 6.3: The Reich will contact Sicily as soon as possible and grant them a gift of 200 florins per year for 10 years.

[OverKnight]

Otto rises to speak:

I will second Edicts 6.2 and 6.3.

It is unfortunate that we take this step, but this new Pope has brazenly attacked Rome. If he had stayed in the countryside preaching hellfire I would say leave him be, but he's perched on a bridge disrupting trade and travel.

The Kaiser's informants are efficient. One reason, I believe, for the Sicilians being excommunicated again was their refusal to abandon their alliance with us. I'm sure we all remember a similar demand to break our's with them. This show of faith must be rewarded and we must keep our southern border stable. Rome will be under enough threats without adding Normans to the mix.


It seems that some in the Diet doubt my sincerity and reasons for going on the Crusade. I fear that my inclusion in this Holy Journey might damage support for it and the candidacy of the Prinz. I will not allow this to happen.

I swear that if Prinz Henry is elected Chancellor, I will resign as Duke of Bavaria. I will be a ritter once again, and will be able to devote myself fully to the Crusade.

I hope this is enough for those calling for a sacrifice of titles and position by Crusaders to swing their votes to Henry. I also hope that those of you among the Diet who feel that I must pay for my actions in the Investiture Crisis will support Henry, so that you may get your wish. He is the best man for the job, and I will stake my title and lands on that fact.

My lords.

Otto sits.

[TinCow]

I stand with Duke von Kassel. I will put all of my influence behind Prinz Henry for the position of Chancellor. I urge all God-fearing Christians to do the same.

[ArchdukeEvan]

I ask of the Noble and Rightous Crusaders sevral things...

first... what makes me think that you wont pay more attention to your own endevours more than the Riech's own Problems? How can one... who is not only thousands of miles away... but is also fighting the cursed muslems... truly sacrifice the time to run the Reich?...
Second... would not a Chancller of the Crusade favor the Crusade with more money and troops than back here?... for example... a crusade requirs mercinarys... will not you provide these auxilarys before providing to those at home?... and once in the Holy Land... you will need hundreds of men to force down the Muslums form rising agianst us... more and more men and materials into your vast armys...

that is the problems i feel with a Crusader... he will favor the Crusade over the Reich... and where is the Crusade without the Reich anyways?

Finaly... I ask of you this... What brings you to the belive that a Non-Crusader Chanceler wouldnt help the Reich?... is it because you fear that he will not provide for your needs first?... or is it simply that you need to contral everything that happens in the Nation... from its ionner workings... to its construction... to its largest armys?...

answer these for me... and tell me also how one proposes to comunicate with the Diet on afairs in Italy... if he is in Antioch?

finaly I would like to say that your Crusade is a Noble undertaking... and that if I had any troops of my own I would be riding with you...

Thank you Mien Lords

[Kagemusha]

Dietrich Von Saxony

"If i may answer to your questions.First i believe that the Chancellor should be here in Germany. Second i think that a crusading chancellor would indeed concentrate on the crusading armies and leave Reich on the second place. Third i dont believe that non crusading Chancellor would be a bad thing at all. As you can see if you look at the list of Crusades. There are many men there from many parts of the Reich,with many opinions how the affairs here in Reich should be handled."

[ArchdukeEvan]

Sir... respectfully... i ment in the fact that the Prinz's supporters...
I can answer my own questions... i belive...

execpt my apologys for considering the Cursaders as a single body

[Kagemusha]

Dietrich stands up and replies to the 5th Elector of Austria.

"No offense taken"

After that Dietrich starts reading from a scroll:

"I hereby suggest Charter Amendment 6.4. When a Kaiser or eqvalent of Duke leaves for a crusade. He must appoint an Steward to take care from his lands and duties, while he is on a crusade. A crusader should commit himself fully on his Holy task and leave all politics and Ducal matters including the command of household armies inside the Reich and not to take part on Imperial Diet while crusading. If an count will leave for an crusade, his Duke will take possession of his lands while he crusades.Or If his Duke is not available, a steward acting from Dukes behalf.
When Crusade has reached their goal or dismissed. While returning to Reich the crusaders previous powers and estates will be given back to him when he reaches the area of the Reich."

Dietrich bows and takes his seat among the Franconians.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

I second von Saxony's proposed Charter Amendment, but I believe it is 6.4, not 6.3.

[Kagemusha]

Dietrich Von Saxony

"Thank you for the correction mein Kaiser,i will correct the numbering."

Dietrich looks murderously towards his main scribe and sits down.

[TinCow]

I most strenuously oppose Charter Amendment 6.4. If a Duke wishes to appoint a Steward, that is entirely within his power. There is no need to force him to do so if he does not wish to. Furthermore, I will never willingly hand over my lands around Nuremburg to another Elector. It is my home and my personal staff are perfectly capable of ensuring that it is governed according to my will while I am gone. Perhaps this Amedment would make sense if every Duke and Count was a one-man government without aides. As this is obviously not the case, it is ridiculous and borders on insulting.

This Diet seems intent on penalizing the Crusaders for their sacrifice, despite the fact that by our very departure we are opening up many opportunities for command and advancement to those who stay behind. You should be ashamed of yourselves, Electors, for trying to take advantage of men who risking their lives in the service of God.

[Stuperman]

I would like to second edict 6.1 and 6.3, Budapest would make a fine adition to the HRE, and help us maintain contigious (sp - am I even using the correct word?) borders. And I believe that all efforts should be made to please Sicily, as Italians have proven trecherous in the past.

[ArchdukeEvan]

And you Mandorf... evade my questions... which are fair... you ask us to support you and your Chancelership... prove why we need a Crusader for it... answer my questions... or do you know the answers will destroy your own means?...

I do not have it out to destroy the Crusade... with the Lord as my witness... ill say that it is a most divine and honorable thing to do... to sacrifice ones self and ones spirt to the hardships of a long march... but why is it that we are bent on the crusades destruction... maybe you should pay more attention to what you are saying Mein Lord.

[TinCow]

The 5th Elector of Austria is clearly mistaken. It is not my Chancellorship. My Chancellorship is over and I am not running for re-election. I support Prinz Henry for one reason and one reason only: his abilities to unite and govern the entire Reich are second to none. While many of us have been diving these lands and their peoples, including myself, he has spent his time seeking to mend wounds and bring us together as a people. I fully believe that Duke Leopold would be an excellent Chancellor, but I simply believe that Prinz Henry would be even better. Even if he were half a world away, I know that the heir to the throne would manage the realm better than any of us could hope to do so. That is why I am voting for him and that is why I urge others to do so.

As for you comment on "the Crusade's destruction," I admit I do not really know what you are talking about. Are you saying you wish us to be defeated on our journey?

[ArchdukeEvan]

Your chancelership... ment... you and your support of the Prinz... anyways... it wouldnt matter... i have stated that before now...

This Diet seems intent on penalizing the Crusaders for their sacrifice ... You should be ashamed of yourselves, Electors

am asking why we would need a Crusader Chanceler... i have state my questions along those lines... I do not belive that anywhere have I said that I wish death abone you...

In fact... other than my obvious dislike of a crusading chanceler... I have stated nothing but compliments on your endevor... and I shall morn as deep as all the Reich will if this crusade is destroyed...

[Stuperman]

5th Elector, you ask how could we have a Crusader Chancellor? I ask you how could we not?

This...unorthodox, crusade was decided by a vote to hold to key to the salvation of the Holy Roman Empire, it is without a doubt that this is the most important military action ever undertaken by the Riech. This great force, with the future of the riech dependant upon it's success, calls for, nay, DEMANDS the leadership of the Chancellor. Should that man also have royal blood, then all the better as the Kaiser is too old to partake. In short, it would be irresponsible for the Chancellor to sit at home, while the future of the riech was decided thousands of mile away.

[Ignoramus]

Mein electors, I wholly support Charter Ammendment 6.4. How can one manage his estates while he is in the Holy Land? Surely you all know that this is indeed impossible.

I am unsure of which Imperial Prinz I shall support as Chancellor.

Prinz Henry has been a solid speaker of keeping the Duchies amiable towards one another. He has also proved to be a solid general and a worthy leader of the upcoming Crusade.

Prinz Leopold has struggled against many dangers on the eastern frontier. He has fought back numerous armies of Venice, while maintaining commerce and trade at Vienna.

[Csargo]

This...unorthodox, crusade was decided by a vote to hold to key to the salvation of the Holy Roman Empire, it is without a doubt that this is the most important military action ever undertaken by the Riech. This great force, with the future of the riech dependant upon it's success, calls for, nay, DEMANDS the leadership of the Chancellor. Should that man also have royal blood, then all the better as the Kaiser is too old to partake. In short, it would be irresponsible for the Chancellor to sit at home, while the future of the riech was decided thousands of mile away.

What good is a Crusade if the entire Reich falls into disarry? I doubt anyone here needs to be reminded that we are surrounded by Kings who wish to destroy everything we've worked so hard to build over the years because of our seizing of Rome. And now you wish to elect a Chancellor that will be on a Crusade for years to come, and who will take weeks if not months to decide issues of grave importance. I mean no disrespect my Prinz, but what if such a tragedy were to befall the Reich? How would a man such a great distance away from the Reich be able to handle it?

The Fifth Elector of Franconia sits with a calm expression on his face thinking he's made his point.

[Warluster]

I have to agree with The Fifth Elector of Franconia and fifth elector of Austria, there points made already...

Though I agree with this, I support the Prinz in goong for CHancellorship.

[Ituralde]

Dear brother Henry, let me assure that I will not exercise unecessary force against the Venetians should the city fall into my hands, unless of cours the Venetians give me cause to do this. To waylay all your fears you could even propose an Edict strictly forbidding any such act, I would gladly offer one of my Ducal Edicts for it, should it be required.

As I have mentioned I have no intention of harming or hindering the Crusade, quite the opposite. One reason for running for Chancellorship was to help the Crusade by relieving Henry of this burden, if he does not wish this, he must but say so.
It seems however that we both find ourselves in a position where we have split the Diet into those believing in a Crusadig Chancellor and into those that believe it would be better if the Chancellor stayed at home. It would be imprudent now for either of us to withdraw his candidacy, as this body seems bent on making a decision here.
Let me reassure all of you though, that whomever comes out on top in the upcoming Election, neither of you must fear that Crusade or Reich will be left unattended. My brother and I are both capable of making the right decisions that will assure our missions success without neglecting the defense of the Reich.


I second Edict 6.1 and 6.3

[TinCow]

Duke Leopold, what is your position on the proposed legislation that would strip the Crusaders of their lands and rights? Do you believe that those of us who are taking up the Cross for the good of the Reich should be punished in this way?

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: A list of proposed edicts and their first two seconders has been posted at the entrance to this Diet:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...25&postcount=1

The deadline for edicts is 23.00 UK time on Tuesday.

I have seconded charter ammendents 6.2 and 6.3.

[FactionHeir]

*reads through the proposed edicts*

*scribbles secondment for edict 6.2*

[Ituralde]

Count Mandorf, I believe that the Edict proposed by Duke von Saxony merely states that the lands of the Crusaders be given to Stewards for caretaking for the duration of the Crusade. Coming from the midst of your Council I did not expect this harsh opposition to it.
While I agree to its spirit and would urge every Crusader to follow it, I am not sure whether it is a good idea to have it imposed by this body. Every Duke and Count should choose for himself whether he is willing to leave the runnings of his domains to his scribes or whether he puts it in the hands of a capable Steward. Many dangers will await you on your journey, so maybe it's prudent to appoint a successor.

That being said, I'm curious why you are so interested in my opinion on this particular matter. It's not as if I had any influence over it were I elected Chancellor and you seem to have made up your mind about my candidacy anyway?

[Kagemusha]

Dietrich takes the stand.

"Count Mandorf. I dont see my proposal as punisment in any way. My thoughts were strictly with what i see as best for the Reich. Same way as a neighbour takes good care of his neighbours house when the other one is on a journey,so should Reich take care of the lands of the brave crusaders,while they can hardly effectively control what is happening in their domains,when they are in far away lands, lacking contact to the Reich.
Dont you trust your country men to take care of Nurnberg while you are away? I trust mine and i cant see how we should handle the affairs of the Reich,when we will hardly know what is happening in the Holy Roman Empire, while we will we be in far away lands."

[econ21]

OOC:

The House of Swabia proposes the following:

OOC Charter Amendment 6.5: The Chancellor will use the "character_reset" command in the console to double the movement of crusading stacks (so long as they are not part of proper crusade missions). This amendment expires once Jerusalem falls to the crusaders.
Proposed: Prinz Henry
Seconded: 5th Elector of Swabia, 6th Elector of Swabia

The idea is to make the crusade about as fast as normal crusades, speeding up the time it takes us to get to Jersualem. Discussion should be in the OOC thread.

[Ignoramus]

The Sixth Elector of Swabia rises to his feet and addresses the Diet.

Mein electors, while I applaud the Crusade and those who take up the cross and fight for the Holy City, I cannot approve how the land that is wrested from the infidel is to be alotted.

Those fighting the infidel are paying with their own gold their retainers and will suffer much hardship and toil on their march to the Levant, that I think it only fair that if they chose to remain and defend the Holy City that they be granted the lands that they themselves have taken.

Charter Ammendment 6.6: "Any lands taken in the east by those on Crusade shall be assigned to those that took them. If two or more generals lead the assault, then the Council of Crusaders shall determine to whom the land is assigned."

[TinCow]

Frankly, Duke von Saxony, no, I do not trust that the the Steward of Bavaria will manage Nuremberg in a properly Christian manner while I am away. I respect Gerhard Steffen's intelligence and his skill in combat, but it is well known that he has no regard whatsoever for the Holy Father. It has been my objective for some time to turn Nuremberg into a place of pilgrimage for all Christians. How can a believe that a man who is notorious for his lack of piety will see these desires fulfilled?

Your Charter Amendment only helps those that it does not need to help in the first place. If any man believes his lands can be effectively managed by another while he is gone, then he is free to appoint a Steward or hand over his lands to his Duke. There is nothing that is stopping you from doing this. Yet those of us who believe that our personal orders are necessary to ensure that our lands are developed as we would wish them to be must be allowed to continue to exercise our authority. I assure you, my personal staff in Nuremberg will know exactly what to do and will be prompt in informing the Chancellor of the build queues.

This is not a matter of difficulties arising from our displacement from the lands of the Reich. This is a matter of removing our lawful rights to govern our own lands as we see fit. What is next? Shall we prevent any man from governing his lands if he so much as steps foot outside the borders of his province?

[Stuperman]

Charter Ammendment 6.6: "Any lands taken in the east by those on Crusade shall be assigned to those that took them. If two or more generals lead the assault, then the Council of Crusaders shall determine to whom the land is assigned."

I vehimently aoposed this ammendment, as it only serves to punish Austria which lacks enought family members to go on Crusade and defend their homeland. If you are unhappy with the Kaiser's distrobution of Settlements, I suggest you take it up with him.

I would also like to take this time to voice my opposition for Edict 6.2, the Chancellor has 3 regiments of spear militia, and 2 regiments of peasent crossbowmen, this, along with this body gaurd is more than enough to defend himself against the pope, Infact the Kaiser's Garison is as powerful as the entire Bavairan Household army at this point. The money would be better spent rebuilding the household armies than further garisoning a well defended, un-threatened city.