Imperial Diet II

[ArchdukeEvan]

Admendment 6.6 is... as said before... only a way to drag Austria out of the Holy Land... a House-per-Town distripution is a fair... and un arguable... way of doing things...

5th Elector, you ask how could we have a Crusader Chancellor? I ask you how could we not?

if... as you have obviously not listened... you should look at your Scribes recording... I have said... all of my problems... in the form of questions... about a crusading Chancelor... that is all the more i will say to that question...

[Northnovas]

The Third Elector returns to the Diet and stands before the members...

I know the time is running late and before we close I wish to put forward an Edict proposed by my Duke and seconded by myself and the 5th Elector.
Edict 6.4:
Any decision that would lead to the excommunication of the Reich has to be authorized by a Diet vote, requiring a 2/3 majority.
Motion by Duke Leopold
Second by The Third and Fifth Elector of Austria

[OverKnight]

My Lords, Bavaria wishes to propose a House Edict:

Edict 6.5: The Chancellor must attempt to secure Byzantine military access for the Crusade. Florin payment (single or tribute) is authorized for this purpose, at the Chancellor's discretion. If this cannot be achieved, the Chancellor must give the Byzantines a gift of 200 florins tribute for 10 turns.
Proposed: Maximillian Mandorf
Seconded: Otto von Kassel, Gerhard Steffen

The Byzantine Empire is a neighbor and a Christian, if not Catholic, Empire. The Crusade will have to pass through their territories, but we should do what we can to soften the blow. This will help ensure that the Reich is not left with an enemy on its borders.

I also have my own edict to propose:

Edict 6.6: If a territory is to be used in negotiations with foreign powers, the Chancellor must first gain the permission of its rulers, the Kaiser for Imperial lands or the respective Duke for Duchy lands, to do so.

By proposing this I hope to clarify a matter not well covered in our Charter.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: Duke Otto, if in Edict 6.6 you mean negotiations with foreign powers, I am sure that we can take Edict 6.6 as an unspoken part of the Charter. There would be little point the Emperor allocating settlements to Houses if the Chancellor could simply dispose of them to foreign powers. Unless any Elector speaks against it in the next 24 hours, I propose to simply add it to the Charter.

[OverKnight]

Sometimes the unspoken is best said aloud, lest confusion reign.

I have added foreign powers into edict 6.6.

[TinCow]

I do not believe Edict 6.6 is necessary in regards to the Ducal Houses. Rule 4.4 states:

Dukes can then grant a settlement to a player, making him Count of that settlement. The settlements remain nominally within the relevant Duchy. There are no Counts at the start of the game. Capitals of a House need no Counts and cannot be given to them - they belong to the Duke (or his Steward). The Emperor could allocate Bologna to a House at any time, but after that, it will permanently belong to that House. There is an expectation that Franconia will extend north, Swabia west, Bavaria south and Austria east but this should not be followed too rigidly - e.g. the Emperor does not have to give Bologna to Bavaria.

The word permanently clearly indicates that, at a minimum, it cannot be taken from the Ducal House without the consent of the Duke. I will note that I cannot find any language that would provide similar protection for the Kaiser's lands though. So, I believe this legislation would still be useful for him. At the same time though, I wish to point out that this should probably be a Charter Amendment. By law, Edicts lapse after 10 turns, unless stated otherwise. This legislation clearly needs to extend beyond that. I would suggest changing it to a Charter Amendment simply because I believe it would pass. It would be ungentlemanly to attempt to remove the Kaiser's lands from his control without his permission, even considering his past actions.

I also think there are some legal difficulties regarding Edict 6.4. As with the previous Edict, this one should likely be proposed as a Charter Amendment. I personally doubt whether we will find ourselves reconciled with the Pope within the next 10 turns, so this legislation would be totally useless if it did not extend for a longer period. Second, this Edict would violate Rule 3.3 and Charter Amendment 5.1, both of which specifically give Dukes the right to declare war on any neutral army that enters their territory. I do not believe that an Edict can violate an Imperial Law, so a Charter Amendment will be needed to achieve the desired effect. I agree with the sentiment behind this legislation though and will support it if it is changed in such a way as to make it useful. Perhaps the Austrians would consider changing their legislation to the following:

Charter Amedment 6.X: Any decision that would lead to the excommunication of the Reich has to be authorized by a Diet vote, requiring a 2/3 majority. In the event of a conflict, this Amendment supercedes Rule 3.3 and Charter Amendment 5.1.

[Ituralde]

Thank you Count Mandorf for pointing out the ovious flaws in the legislation proposed by my fellow Elector. Indeed it has been intended to be a Charter Amendment rather than just an Edict, my scribes must have made a fatal slip there. I'm also thankful for your legal advice. I believe the Third Elector was merely anxious to get this proposed in my name before the Diet closes. Since it is a Ducal Edict, I will change it to the following:

Charter Amendment 6.7:
Any decision that would lead to the excommunication of the Reich has to be authorized by a Diet vote, requiring a 2/3 majority. In the event of a conflict, this Amendment supercedes Rule 3.3 and Charter Amendment 5.1.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconders: The Third and Fifth Elector of Austria

[TevashSzat]

I would like to second amendment 6.6

Maximillion makes a fine point of giving the conquered lands to whoever conquered them would make a fine incentive, but also think of this. It is most likely that whoever conquered the lands would be the ones defending it. How would you feel about defending the lands that you conquered but were given to another person? Furthermore, there is no point for anyone not in the crusade to govern any settlement as they would have limited information regarding what is occuring in the Holy Lands and would not be a suitable ruler.

I would further like to show my support for amendment 6.7 since myself as well as others would most likely not wish for excommunication that is unncessary as we will be forced to remove the current pope and then seek a more suitable one that may reconcile us

[Stuperman]

Maximillion makes a fine point of giving the conquered lands to whoever conquered them would make a fine incentive.

Maximillian makes no such point.

It is most likely that whoever conquered the lands would be the ones defending it. How would you feel about defending the lands that you conquered but were given to another person?

I feel that it is my duty to defend this great empire where ever I am needed, would you not fight for the riech just because it is defending your brother's land? And again I must point out that Austria, the smallest of the households, will gain no new territory in the east if this Charter amendment passes as they onle have 1 general of age ,and he must stay at home to defend it.

Furthermore, there is no point for anyone not in the crusade to govern any settlement as they would have limited information regarding what is occuring in the Holy Lands and would not be a suitable ruler.

Messengers will get through, and why must we punish those willing to risk everything for the salvation of the riech?

[TevashSzat]

Those fighting the infidel are paying with their own gold their retainers and will suffer much hardship and toil on their march to the Levant, that I think it only fair that if they chose to remain and defend the Holy City that they be granted the lands that they themselves have taken

I inferred that from this statement, that holding the lands that the crusaders have taken would make it more desirable to defend the Holy City.

As for the state of the House of Austria, it is regretabble that no one from the house shall join the crusade, but then again, life is not fair. It is simply fate that no more nobles have rose from the ranks to join the House. Also, is it not the Duke's own fault for not having children as early...

[Stuperman]

I believe that that was put forth by a fellow swabian elector.
after much thought I have realized this Charter Amendment would further complicate the crusade as Only lands the chancellor has control of are ones he can use in negotiation. This would mean that Prinz Henry would have to take our gift city, and not till after he gets the crown.

[Ignoramus]

The Sixth Elector of Swabia rises to his feet.

Mein fellow elector, Herr Steffen, I only seek to justly give to those what is rightfully theirs. Surely you would not begrudge those who take up the cross their right of conquest?

The Sixth Elector of Swabia resumes his seat.

[TinCow]

I do not speak for the other Crusaders, but I am not traveling east for personal glory, conquest, or riches. I seek only the blessings of God as the rightful reward for those who take up arms for Christ against the blasphemers. I care not what becomes of the lands we conquer, so long as they are held by righteous Christians. An eternity in the bosom of God the Father is a prize which no earthly plunder can equal.

[OverKnight]

I will withdraw Edict 6.6 and instead propose:

Charter Amendment 6.8: The disposition of Imperial territory is at the sole discretion of the Emperor.

The new amendment has the advantage of direct language and permanence.

I am opposed to any amendments that would infringe on the Emperor's ability to assign lands. Not just now, but for the future as well. I am on the Crusade for atonement, not to enlarge my holdings.

I also opposed to any amendments that enforce an Empire wide policy on all Crusaders, such as CA 6.1 and 6.4. This should be left to the Duchies to settle internally. If you require an act of contrition and sacrifice by a Crusader I will remind you that I have promised to resign as Duke if Prinz Henry is elected Chancellor. I hope this is enough.

Thank you my Lords.

[econ21]

Thanks to the industry of Duke Otto's staff, an updated list of Edicts and Amendments has been posted at the Entrance to the Diet.

[Ituralde]

Don't you think that it is a little bit early to talk about the distribution of land conquered by the Crusaders? Already your are squabbling over the riches of an unpicked fruit. Time will tell where the Crusade will lead you and I am sure that whoever is Kaiser at that point will know to reward those who undertook this strenuous journey first and foremost. Isn't it already stated that only our Emperor shall assign conquered provinces. I think this should suffice for anyone.

I appreciate von Steffens concerns about the state of Austria. It is true that I had wished the Crusade to begin at a later point so that someone from my House would have the ability to join. The way it is I can not go, because I am needed to defend my lands. It truly seems to be fate as the Swabian Elector has pointed out. Why he chose to insult me, because of this, eludes me though.


The Diet is drawing to an end and one of the most important tasks of whomever will become Chancellor has only been lightly touched upon by this Diet. Excommunication, Excommunication and how to remedy it.
So far I believe there are those that hope that once the Crusade reaches its destination and offers the Papacy Jerusalem we will be reconciled. I agree with them, but would also like to point out that this will take a very long time. Time we do not necessarily have, time that our people won't give us. Unrest is running large and I'm curious how any future Chancellor will be able to keep the populous Italian Cities from rioting.
Then there is the Kaiser who wants to sit out every Pope between the current and our Preferati Otterbach. This will also take time, and furthermore will not be as fool-proof. As von Mandorf has pointed out, even a Pope Otterbach would be at war with us and find it difficult to sign peace when he has nowhere to go to.
The third option proposed by me is to give the Pope land now. Be it permanently or not is up to discussion.

I have considered giving up Zagreb for the cause, seeing as it's already beset by Venetians on all side. This would weaken the Austrian border for at least the duration of the Crusade and I don't think we can afford this. The next option could be Venice. I am sure of its fall soon, but then it will not belong to me and I have my doubts whether mein Emperor would give it to me if I would pass it on to anyone else than Pope Otterbach.

All the while I'm pondering on this I wonder why I should do it though. I took no part in the machinations that led to our current situation, quite the opposite I opposed them vehemently from the beginning. Yet I would be the one to pay a high price for everyone of you. I seem to be the only one that has considered this, which makes me ask whether I am surrounded by selfish men, not willing to sacrifice their own land for the greater good of the Reich.
Should I be selfish too then? Should I hold on to my possessions and see how long our excommunication will last? How we lengthen our time in purgatory?

It is a difficult decision that lies in the days ahead of us, so before I do anything rash I would like to hear this Diet's opinion on these matters. How long do you want to wait before we are reconciled? How long can you wait?

[OverKnight]

Duke Leopold, I believe the Diet has had this discussion before during the Emergency Session a few years back. The decisions reached there are still in effect. Your concern for the Empire speaks well of you, but your idea for the Crusade was voted down, and part of that was your proposal of donating the Reich's current land for peace.

I hope you would not see the Chancellorship as a vehicle to reverse those decisions, including the Crusade, or to work against them. Your proposal concerning Zagreb indicates that you might be. This province is the launching point of the Crusade, and if donated to the Papacy would cause problems for the gathering armies. The Crusade would become a trespasser on land that was once the Reich's.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: In view of the quietness of the Diet, I will close this session now and order the scribes to prepare the ballot papers.

[Kagemusha]

Dietrich Von Saxony stands up and addresses the Diet:

"Mein Kaiser,Prinz,fellow Dukes and electors. I have cast my votes,so it is time for me to say goodbyes. It has been an honour to serve with you on this Imperial Diet. We have had our share of differences,but that is just the way politics are. There is still little time,before we depart to our quest to the Holy land,so i have decided to visit my home Frankfurt before our quest begins. God be with you all and with the Reich. Goodbye."

Dietrich walks around the hall shaking hand of each elector and then leaves the Diet.

[TinCow]

Apologies for not mentioning this in my Chancellor's reports, but I would like to inform whoever is elected to serve the next term that some of the Reich's cities have been repeatedly targeted by foreign spies attempting to increase unrest. Our own spies have been somewhat successful in combating this, but we must be wary lest riots ensue in places that we did not previously have problems. In particular, it seems as though the Hungarians have been attempting for create rebellion in Vienna and the French in Dijon.

Again, I apologize for not mentioning this sooner. It only occurred to me when I was considering Duke Leopold's orders for the Austrian lands and his comment about public order.

[FactionHeir]

Indeed I have seen some shady creatures elude the guardsmen in Dijon. It may be a good idea to provide our own spies with some training rather than sending them directly to counterspy a most elusive opponent.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: Now that the overwhelming majority of Electors have voted in the Chancellorshop elections, I must concede defeat. Even if the two or three who have not yet voted all voted for me, it would not overturn Duke Leopold's majority. I thank those Electors who did vote for me. I know they will wish to join with me in congratulating the Duke on his victory and in wishing him every success as our next Chancellor.

[FactionHeir]

*nods to the Prince-Duke*

*looks to Leopold*
I shall be one of the first to congratulate you to your term then. May you guide the empire to a newfound glory and bring Otterbach onto the papal seat.

[TinCow]

*Maximillian Mandorf becomes visibly uncomfortable at the mention of Cardinal Otterbach. He makes a few excuses to the Electors seated near him and leaves the Diet.*

[ArchdukeEvan]

Congratulations Fair Duke!

looks at the retiring Mandorf and wnders silently why he truly left

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

With Pope Accattus's unfortunate death, I instruct the next Chancellor to support Charles Otterbach in the next Papal election. Should he not be among the preferati, then I instruct the next Chancellor to support the Danish cardinal instead.

[OverKnight]

Otto stands to speak to the Diet. He appears somewhat flustered.

Well, ah, it seems we will have to find a new Pope to negotiate with as the Kaiser has. . .exercised his veto, as it were. I'm glad the Kaiser has found a hobby to keep himself active in his "retirement".

It is unfortunate that it happened this way, but the foolhardy Pontiff had clearly shown his hostility towards us. I do not agree with the methods used, but that is for others to condemn.

With these actions, it has become clear to me that further war with the Papacy will only bring out our worse natures and eventually lead to the dissolution of the Reich. We may win every battle against them in the field, but we will lose the war in the churches and cities of the Empire.

It is time to make peace and seek reconciliation if we can. If it is with Cardinal Otterbach, so much the better. If we do this we can try to get official sanction for our Crusade in a few years.

Otto pauses, draws a deep breath and continues.

If Chancellor Leopold. . .

Otto clenches his jaw.

If the Chancellor enters into negotiations with the Church, I authorize him to offer Florence for peace and reconciliation. Bavaria will make this sacrifice if we can achieve this. I hope the negotiations will bring us high into the Pope's favor, and he will then sanction our Crusade when Christian fervor has recovered from the failed march on Tunis.

This is a reversal from an earlier decision I made, I know, but I must do this for God and the Reich.

My Lords.

Otto sits, he seems a bit more at peace with himself.

[Ituralde]

Duke Leopold rises to adress the Assembly. He looks toward Prinz Henry and extends a deep bow.

This Assembly has chosen and I have come out top by a small margin. I salute you my brother for carrying this minor defeat with so much dignity and grace.
I promised that the Crusading effort will not be neglected under my rule and I will hold on to that promise. Be the Chancellor a Crusader or not, this endeavour will have the full support of the Reich! If my scribes inform me correctly, Count Mandorf has taken up the task of transfering the Crusading Councils decision to the Chancellor. I will pay good heed to his advice concerning your journey.

I extend my warmest thanks to those that have supported me, their support will not be forgotten. I thank the House of Franconia for standing behind their Duke, Dietrich von Saxony, a most noble man, whose departure from this Assembly fills me with grief. He will be a grand addition to our Crusading efforts.

Concerning the recent actions of my father, Emperor Heinrich, I am lost for words. He sighs deeply
I have long given up on trying to control your actions and while I don't agree with your actions or the way they were carried out, right under our noses, I once again have to deal with the consequences. Cardinal Otterbach will have the Reich's support should he have ascended to the Preferati. Also I have to thank you for the opportunities this has opened up for the Reich.

He turns to Otto von Kassel, giving him a bow as deep as the preceeding one to Henry.

You, Duke Otto von Kassel are a truly honourable man!
Your services for the Reich and for its concenrs can not be praised high enough! Your wisdom is a shining example for us all. I will glady accept your offering and do my best in the upcoming negotiations with the new Pope.

I want everyone in this room here to remember Otto von Kassel as the man, whose personal sacrifice, may just bring us back from the brink of hell itself. Through his selfless decision he will give us the means for reconciliation that will bring peace and prosperity back to the Reich. Unrest will cease and our neighbours will welcome us back into the Holy Church once again. I will do my best to convince the new Pope that our Crusade should recieve his full support and his holy blessing! Making our task even more glorious!

I want you all to remember this for the time that Jerusalem is ours and it will be given to the Pope. Remember then, that Florence was only given to him temporarily, and don't hesiate to remind the Papacy of this state with every tool available to you. That you remember the sacrifice that has been made today and make the right decisions.

He once again bows to Duke Otto von Kassel.

I am in your debt, Duke von Kassel. In doing what I could not, you have saved the Reich, your legacy will always be remembered!

[OverKnight]

Otto is visibly embarrassed and a little surprised by Leopold's praise. Rubbing the scar on his face, he rises to speak.

Thank you for your kind words, Chancellor. By offering Florence, I am merely balancing the scales for my past actions. Whatever nobility there is in my gift, it is offset by my initiation of the war with Gregory and the hardship that has followed. We have gained Rome, but at a great cost both physical and spiritual. I did not anticipate this in my pride and arrogance, I thought only of regaining our lost lands and rights and, it shames me to admit, my own advancement. Nothing is ever gained without a cost, I know this now.

I hope I have atoned for my offences against the Reich by offering Florence. Now I must atone for my sins against the Church, whether Gregory was an anti-Pope or not, by taking the Cross. I fear this will prove more difficult.

I must depart for Zagreb, the Crusade is gathering there. Gunther will relay any messages I might have.

Farewell my Lords, may God grant us victory and salvation.

Otto bows to the Kaiser, Prinz Henry and Chancellor Leopold. He then turns and exits the Diet.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Chancellor Leopold, I authorize you to rearrange Rome's build queue as you see fit, however, I must insist that construction of a cathedral starts by the end of your term.