Out of character thread IV

[Ignoramus]

I'm just unsure as to how Ulrich can be knighted now. He is the one who is to take Metz, by the order of the Kasier. However, as he is not a knight yet, he will have to fight under another's command. It is ironic, considering he's a proven commander.

[FactionHeir]

Well you can autoresolve for the battle. For knighting, you probably want to fight alongside Jobst or so.

I've had a few looks around the 1.2 files (I don't have it installed but I got the files to play and test with) and it seems CA didn't change anything in terms of units, so Forlorn Hope is still 1hp and HRE still can't train DGK.
Also, now inquisitors are prevented from trying heirs and leaders, but this can be toggled in the campaign_db file. (probably want to have a vote on whether that is wanted or not)
Inquisitors are also only able to fail or succeed 3 times before they get bumped to 0 piety. That is also togglable, but in the character_trait file. Desired or not?

[Ituralde]

@Ignoramus:

Yeah, looks like he will play a secondary role in the taking of Metz, but at least he was there.
On the same topic I assume that Conrad Salier was knighted by Gerhard Steffen after the battle of the Po river.

@Warluster:

Pleas save the game make a .zip or .rar file from it and upload it via the pbm uploader stickied at the top of this page. Otherwise I can't continue the game.

Cheers!

Ituralde

[Ignoramus]

No, if Ulrich doesn't command the army taking Metz, he doesn't become Duke. And I'd prefer not to risk my avatar in an auto-resolved battle.

[Ituralde]

Yeah, I was planning to ask econ21 how I should handle the situation OOC.
Even the autocalc would not be exactly legal. Since Ulrich is not yet knighted he can not command armies. Maybe I can put you in a fight against some of the French stacks together with Jobst, before you attack Metz. Then you can be knighted and can fulfill your lieges request.
In the end this boils down to an IC conflict, with Henry giving orders that are hard for Ulrich to fulfill. I think we can work something out. So no worries!

[Warluster]

Does Ulrich have to be knighted by The Kaiser, or can I maybe knight him after a battle.

I'd be happy to attack that french STack wandering outside of Dijon (again...) and I'll knight Ulrich after the battle (But if he just sits there...)

[Ituralde]

I believe every Army Commander can knight a noble that has fought with him. Although it is supposed to be a reward. But since you would be controlling the battle it would also be your choice whether Ulrich just sits there or does something.

[FactionHeir]

Send him charging into some heavy inf! :)

[TinCow]

Yep, anyone can knight an avatar that has fought in his army. In this rather unusual case, if another battle can't be summoned up easily, I would just have econ21 formally knight him somehow and be done with it. Too many complications otherwise.

[OverKnight]

What is the status of the save? I see KotR1070-4 which is the save leading to the sally out of Dijon, that's from one or two days back.

If Warluster auto-calced due to techincal issues surrounding so many units around a city, Ituralde could just take the last save and auto-calc it and continue. The results would be identical to Warluster's.

Is there a reason for the delay in uploading? Or are we facing a breakdown in communications?

[Warluster]

Okay, I have uploaded the save file in .zip format!

[econ21]

I'm just unsure as to how Ulrich can be knighted now. He is the one who is to take Metz, by the order of the Kasier. However, as he is not a knight yet, he will have to fight under another's command. It is ironic, considering he's a proven commander.

I don't have access to M2TW, so I can't check saves. If Ulrich fought at Dijon in the autoresolved battle, then Warluster could knight him. If not the idea of seeking another fight to earn his spurs is a good one.

I think it would add character if Ulrich heads the army that takes Metz, but to be honest Henry was just thinking in terms of Swabia, not Ulrich, retaking it. Ulrich doing it personally would just be doing it with style.

[Ituralde]

Currently Jobst is sitting in Dijon and Ulrich is sitting in Staufen. The French at Metz pretty much half them, if Ulrich doesn't want to take the long route through Bern to reach Dijon. Ulrich was not present in the autocalced defense of Dijon, but I'll try to get both of them involved in a battle in or around Metz!

[Warluster]

Why doesn't Jobst take Ulrich, and kill the French Prince's army (which is lurkign nearby) and kill their Prince, and you can kill two birds with one stone?

[Warluster]

I just finished the battle Ituralde, and I won (easily) and I shall post up the Battle Report now and upload the save file (in .zip format)

And also, Ignoramus, could you please clear up your PM Box, as its full and I am trying to send a PM to you.

[Ituralde]

Yeah, I'll try to do something in that direction. The problem is that Dijon will riot without Jobst AND a huge army present, which does not make things easier.

[Jalf]

Hmm, sorry, but I think I'm going to have to bail out. Too little free time (and too many games to play ;))

Still going to check in here from time to time (it all makes for interesting reading), but it's probably a bad idea to rely on me being able to actively participate.

Better give my avatar to some deserving soul, who won't mind playing a pious and rather overlooked youngish knight who seem destined to never spend more than a week in his homeland. :D

[econ21]

Sorry to hear you have to drop out, Jalf, but I understand.

Looking at the table in the first post of the Chancellor and Governor's reports, it seems Ichigo - as the only Franconian without an avatar - is the natural person to take over von Mahren. If Ichigo posts in this thread to confirm he is willing to take that avatar, we can make that switch.

[Ituralde]

This is in response to the latest Diet post from Overknight.

I will answer this hear, as the reasons for the thing you saw are entirely OOC and thus I can not explain them IC, and in fact they have never happende IC.

Those 120 Teutonic Knights are the escort that left Zagreb in 1168 under the command of Hans and was heading towards the Crusade. Then in 1170 Hans joined the Crusaders and travelled further East. I did this despite knowing that FactionHeir might have liked to let Hans travel north to join Leopold. I was away for two days and thought I would not have the time to develop the storyline I had discussed with FactionHeir.
Then, however FactionHeir contacted me and said that he wanted Hans to join Leopolds army instead of the Crusader army. Since we were still in the same turn, being 1170, I thought it would not hurt to rectify my earlier hastiness by allowing FactionHeir to play out the plotline. So I used the character_reset and let Hans move from the orignal position he had at the beginning of 1170 to Leopolds army.

That's when I made a second mistake. I forgot all about the Teutonic Knights I had sent along with Hans, so I left them with the Crusaders. Once I realized this I hoped that maybe only Hans had travelled north and his escort had joined the Crusaders none the less. Then I read the story from FactionHeir, that details that he had taken the Teutonic Knights with him. To bring everything in line again I took the Teutonic Knights and put them back to Hans, who then joined forces with Leopold outside of Budapest.

So you see, neither those Teutonic Knights nor Hans have ever been in the Crusading Army. Those 120 Teutonic Knights did not set out from Zagreb. I hope that clarifies your points, Overknight, and also any future points if any of you look at the discrepancies between some of the saves.

[OverKnight]

The IC issues still remain despite the time space rip in the game. Those knights were part of the original crusade armies. TC listed them in this Chancellor's report:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...5&postcount=67

The integrity of the game should take precedence over stories developed from the game. Also the use of console commands would require a charter amendment, i.e. giving money to AI factions, and this was not done.

So despite OOC shenanigans, the IC fact remains that Crusade forces were stripped, one way or the other, from the Crusade armies. This makes Otto cranky.

OOC, the knights should be returned using the same console commands used to take them away, IC the knights would be assigned back to the trailing crusade army.

[StoneCold]

Hmm... I think let this play out itself IC. Just let Han's and Leopold do the explanation as happened in the story and Leopold can send back the Teutonic Knights ASAP. Nothing wrong with that... just don't use any console commands as that will make the story worse IC...

Just my two cents.

Edit: change templar to teutonic

[FactionHeir]

Basically the way I understood it (from one of the saves I've seen at least) the Teutons and Hans were behind Henry's army by at least a turn's march.
The very same turn, Ituralde and I started devloping a story where I thought he had given me the Teutons as well (in one of the saves you can actually see Hans with 2 teuton regiments between Zagreb and Henry). ICly, you can see it as the knights acting on the chancellor's or Hans' orders to divert.

Now, the issue with the character_reset was only done because Ituralde had moved them to Henry (together with my avatar) before consulting with me. Using the console command was thus not cheating per se nor against the rules as he merely set Hans and the knights back to the same position they started the turn out at (not to give them extra moves at all).

[Ituralde]

Hmh.. I see, I see. Even more reason for Henry and the Crusaders to be mad at Hans or rather blame Leopold for it. Now I remember where those Teutonic Knights had come from.

I think we should let this play out IC then.

[FactionHeir]

*cough* according to the story Leopold ordered the Teutons to follow Hans ;)

[OverKnight]

The problem is the Crusaders were never given an opportunity to respond to the kidnapping of 120 knights, something we would have noticed if done using normal movement. I doubt they would have abandoned the Cross because some 16 year old told them to.

Those knights were part of the original Crusade army, and were sent out to give Hans an escort from Zagreb so random venetians wouldn't skewer the princeling.

I'll wait and see what econ TC and Kagemusha say, but I feel those knights should be returned.

If they are not returned, expect some IC fireworks.

Edit: FH, if you're going to put words in the mouths of other avatars, you need their permission.

[Ituralde]

Yeah, as I said, those Teutonic Knights are clearly missing from the Crusade, although not through the facts illustrated by your screenshots.

As I said, let's deal with this IC, it fits in nicely with the story I'm writing with FactionHeir right now, you should see it in the Stories Thread soon.
The missing Knights are correct OOC and IC, I just missed this, sorry about that.
How they went missing though, I think it's best if we agree on the 'kidnapping' by Hans and play on from there.

[FactionHeir]

OverKnight:
The only words I put into Leopold's mouth in my story were those when Hans arrived at the camp

"I shall think about it Hans, but for now, let me brief you on the situation at hand..."

The meeting at the start actually happened.


As for the story, you'll see it soon enough once Ituralde and I have finished writing it. It will make a lot of things clearer.

[AussieGiant]

Ahh you guy's!!

With nothing better to do lets cause some friction for the hell of it!!

That's what I love about all this...there's never a dull moment.

[OverKnight]

AG - We have to have something for the Second Elector to be shocked over.

Otto might be overreacting IC, but the use of console commands, cheating, is something that concerns me OOC. The fact that this was done without consulting anyone is also concerning.

Whether there's a story for it or not, it doesn't paper over the fact that it is a major disruption of the PBM.

[FactionHeir]

Otto might be overreacting IC, but the use of console commands, cheating, is something that concerns me OOC. The fact that this was done without consulting anyone is also concerning.

Whether there's a story for it or not, it doesn't paper over the fact that it is a major disruption of the PBM.

Using console commands for extra movement in a turn (i.e. to get somewhere double as fast as per last OOC CA that failed) would be something that requires consultation, but a simple misstep by the chancellor in terms of where to move an avatar is another thing, as no extra movement was gained and nothing major changed (except that the army was diverted of course)

As I said, Ituralde moved Hans together with the knights eastward at the start of the save. We only an hour later discussed where my avatar actually should go and he went back and remedied an overhasty step. Its not like he resest Hans all the way from Zagreb to Budapest.