Imperial Diet III

[econ21]

Henry: I would like to propose an alternative to Edict 10.1:

Edict 10.4: An expeditionary force will march on Moscow, via Russian - not Polish - provinces (Riga, Novogorod etc). It must engage any enemy field armies it meets along the way, but only besiege Moscow. It will consist of a single stack and will not be reinforced except from locally recruited mercenaries. Moscow will be sacked and abandoned, although no buildings will be destroyed.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: This is would be a fun thing to do - the stack could get whittled down by repeated battles, making it challenging, and by taking only one Russian settlement temporarily, we would leave them in the game.

[OverKnight]

OOC: Proposed Legislation: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...17&postcount=9

IC: Matthias:

I too would like to have more detail on how Count Hummel plans to divide the Duchies into provinces. Perhaps a map? Also he spoke of a regional army of 6 units, but how would this be above and beyond the usual garrisons of the cities in the Region? Would one city in the region have a larger one than the rest, or would the army be outside the cities in a central fort?

I would also like to propose my own Edict:

Edict 10.5: To establish a secure land route to Outremer for our armies, Iconium will be liberated from the Turks and returned to the Byzantine Empire.

Getting to Outremer by ship is still the quickest way, but I would like to establish a land route just in case. This could be useful if we lose naval supremacy or another Crusade is called. The Byzantines have granted us military access, and if we gift them one territory, their roads will give us a land link from the Homeland to the Holy Land.

I, of course, realize there is a great deal occurring in Outremer at the moment, so I have not put a time limit on this edict.

Edit: I will second Edict 10.4. Now that's a Crusade that will put hair on your chest!

[econ21]

I second Edict 10.5. The Turks have been massing around Adana unimpeded for too long and we must support our Byzantine brothers. The timing is tricky however and the Horse Lords are the graver threat.

[Ignoramus]

Ulrich Hummel stands up and unrolls a map.



I fear mein cartographers are not of the highest quality, however, I trust this map shall demonstrate clearly the division I would make.

Each Duchy would contian two provinces:

Swabia - Swabia, Burgundia
Bavaria - Bavaria, Italia
Austria - Austria, Danubia
Franconia - Franconia, Prussia

The provincal armies would be stationed at the province's capital. The armies could not, however, leave the province at any time.

As to Matthias' proposal, it is sound. I would fain offer my services to accomplish this task.

Ulrich bows and resumes his seat.

[FactionHeir]

I shall second edicts 10.3, 10.4 and 10.5.

I do not however see a point in Hümmel's CA that would subdivide our duchies into even smaller parts, reigned by a secondary Duke.

[TevashSzat]

Ulrich Hummels, plan is hardly suitable to current Reich needs. In his plan, the Houses of Swabia and Barbaria do not even have the ability to expand into other territories. That cannot occur and furthermore, I myself am responsible for most of our French conquests and cannot allow land that was rightfully taken by me to be given to a lesser individual while I am left to rule in Swabia without any hope for more battles or glory.

I urge everyone the vehemently oppose his ammendment.

[Ignoramus]

Ulrich Hummel violently gets to his feet.

Nein! Nein, mein electors! Swabia would not be divided in two. The Swabian Duke would merely appoint a governor to command the provincal army - nothing more.

The provinces allow the Reich to be defended more easily, without costing much more gold.

Ulrich Hummel sighs as he resumes his seat.

[OverKnight]

Matthias pours over the map:

It is obvious to me that Count Hummel has put a great deal of thought into this, I am impressed. While I don't agree with all that he has proposed, it still needs to be fleshed out a bit, it illustrates the fact that the Duchies have grown a great deal. Our current organization of provinces and the House Army system might need revamping in the future to accommodate their growth. Recent history has shown that House Armies, particularly if engaged outside their Duchy. . .

Matthias coughs into a silk cloth.

. . .cannot defend far off portions of their respective Duchies.

If I remember my history correctly, during Otto von Kassel's term, he had an ersatz split of Franconia into two regions, similar to the proposed Franconia and Prussia provinces. Both Fredericus von Hamburg and Gunther von Kastilien each had House Army level forces, though Count von Kastilien had the official one dealing with the Poles, and Count von Hamburg had a smaller force to guard Hamburg and deal with multiple brigand armies.

Of course, the Duchy of Franconia, due to it's position and geography, was, and is, an active front both in the east and west, and Chancellor von Kassel needed those two forces for strategic reasons. This would not be the case for some of Count Hummel's proposed interior regions, such as Bavaria and Swabia. Each of those having a separate army would be a waste.

I would suggest dividing the frontiers of the Reich into Marches. These Marches could have an extra reserve of forces that would be augmented with the House Army if needed. Also, if there are nobles available, they should be assigned to a March to ensure a Coup de Main, similar to what happened at Thorn, does not occur. The Army of the Interior could maintain the heartland of the Reich.

Of course it would be difficult to legislate such a setup, considering the fluid situation we face on our borders. Much of it would fall to the Chancellor.

[TevashSzat]

I am sorry Ulrich since I misinterpreted your amendment. I assumed that new houses were to be created, but I still have some doubts regarding your proposal. Should duchies be divided into smaller parts, those who rule deep within the reich do not have much to do organizationally since they do not need to worry about defences, fighting sieges, or retraining new troops which is the biggest worries of any Duke. I suggest that if you wish to make it easier for Duke's divide the provinces instead so that every one may need to worry about expansion and foreign troops other than the normal benign economics.

[Stuperman]

Ulrich and Mathais

Both of your proposed Ideas are excelent, I certialy like the Idea of freeing up the Household armies to deal with real threats instead of having to fight every disgruntled group of men with arms.

Perhaps revising Ulriches plan to incorperate the provinces of Swabia and Bavaria into one, leaving a token force and junior gerneals to fight any brigands that might show up there. The remaining provinces would then have a larger defence force in charge of protecting the boarder, with the size of the force dictated by the threat faced to each province. i.e. Danubia and Prussia would need larger forces than Italia. This would free up the household armies to do thier duke's bidding, not back stop against "armies" of 2 understrength regiments.

[gibsonsg91921]

Kaiser, I do not see how your Edict 10.4 is a Holy Crusade if we cannot purify all of the steppes and it is not supported by home. The purpose was to spread Catholicism into the steppes against the Orthodox barbarians, not send a weak army mindlessly ravaging inside Russia. The Household Army can do that already, without an edict.

[Stig]

I will second Edict 10.4, even though I prefer my own.

My mission is to destroy the Russian Warmachine, and to make sure they are pushed back, so that we can make a no-man's land, and thus we will be safe from them for a very long time.

But even though 10.4 is more dangerous, I will still be more than willing to lead it, as I wish revenge.
But it must be made sure that if it gets done my (or anyone else who leads it) army will be followed by another army led by a young noble from another house. After a couple of battles this army can reinforce the big one.
Next to that this attack would rely heavy on mercenaries as reinforcements.

But I like it's idea and already volunteer to lead it.

I suggest that at the votings we vote for the following:
None
Edict 10.1
Edict 10.4

The winner takes all

I however really insist on a reinforcement army following the first, this can follow 6 years after the big one, so there's time to assemble. Next to this, this army might be able to attack Riga, so that we create the bufferzone I insist on.

Gentlemen, I've lived in Thorn for the last 40 years, believe it's no fun.

(OOC: I really like Igno's idea for reasons that it will make this game more interesting, but Ansehelm will not second it).

[OverKnight]

Matthias speaks again:

My lords I would like to present a House Edict:

Edict 10.6: The continued Milanese threat to Imperial trade and lands will be ended by taking Corsica and Sardinia. The witch Danae will be eliminated before any siege of the Castle on Corsica. The most devout Priests available, at least two, will accompany the army to bring the light of God to that accursed Isle. Once both islands are in our possession, Sardinia will be offered to the Sicilians in exchange for florins and/or their good will. All this must be accomplished in 10 years (5 turns).
Proposed: Matthias Steffen
Seconded: Duke Gerhard Steffen, Lothar Steffen

A similar proposal was given many years ago. With the Corsair threat to Italy removed, the BHA will be free to assist other Houses as needed, as we have done in the past. This Edict will also serve to strengthen our ties to Sicily, our oldest Ally who has stayed loyal to us through Excommunication and War. This should be rewarded.

Thank you.

[AussieGiant]

Arnold stands

I can see what Hummel is trying to do. I myself have stated that the size of Austria requires a second army.

If two administrative lines would help this then I am in favour of this concept.

Please note however that as the Duke of Austria there will be no second Duke or equivalent individual.

Clear lines of authority are need to govern such large regions and I for one will come down hard on any group or individual trying to carve out smaller principalities under my nose. Austria is Austria and it will remain that way whether there are additional administrative titles established or not.

On a side note...can anyone provide me with some insight into what the hell is going on out east?

[AussieGiant]

Actually my lords I have an idea.

In line with Matthias Steffen edict what are the opinions of this body towards giving Sofia to the Byzantine's?

I am naturally inclined towards exerting my hatred towards the Hungarians.

[gibsonsg91921]

I believe that Sofia, the military factory, should be kept and given to Austria. The Gothic Knights and Zwei Handers trained there, no doubt, can take Hungarian land and give them to Byzantium.

[GeneralHankerchief]

*The Bavarian clerk stands up.*

Perhaps we keep it for a short amount of time - say, ten years (five turns) - enough to produce a suitable amount of soldiers. Then, perhaps, we can give it away to the Byzantines. Would this be satisfactory?

[Stuperman]

Although it has already been seconded by 2 people I'll second edict 10.5, continued support of the byzantines is necessary, our roman brothers have fallen on hard times recently, and deserve our support.

edit: Although giving up Sofia would give the Hungarians a boarder with the Byzantines again, and they could make war on each other instead of us....

[Stig]

I agree with Herr Salier, we should recruit loads of good recruits at Sofia, and than give it away (OOC: to make the game more exciting again).
By then Castles as Thorn are big enough to take over. I also suggest that, in addition to CA 10.2 we assign a Heimat, these will be the most important borders of the reich, and these should be our real borders. Everything outside that are extentions. Maybe treated as Imperial Provinces instead of Duchy Provinces.

[GeneralHankerchief]

*The Bavarian clerk rises:*

It has come to my attention that, while Antioch is safe, Jerusalem has fallen victim to the same plague, and that the Pope is inside. It seems that there is a very good chance that Vivianus may not survive the outbreak. With that in mind, I propose the following edict in the name of King Salier:

Edict 10.7: Should Pope Vivianus die thanks to the plague currently ravaging Jerusalem, all efforts shall be made to keep our favor at the highest level possible with the new Pope. Any purposeful ignorance of any and all Papal Bulls issued is to be considered in violation of this Edict.

Thank you.

[Cecil XIX]

I second Edict 10.7.

[gibsonsg91921]

I oppose Edict 10.7 - what if there's an occurence that we need action and cannot wait for the Pope?

[FactionHeir]

Indeed, that is why I am not seconding it. While I used to believe that a papal bull is imperative to follow, the recent Milanese boat near Florence has proved otherwise.

[econ21]

I second Edict 10.7.

[AussieGiant]

Edict 10.8 (Personal Edict)

Sofia shall be given to the Byzantine Empire in the year 1250.

This shall ensure direct and safe military access via land to Outremer.

All attempts must be made to maintain this land bridge using all means at our disposal.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

I second 10.8.

-edit- OOC note: count this as a "yes" vote, econ.

[econ21]

I second Edict 10.8.

[FactionHeir]

I believe that 1250 may be too early to train sufficient troops for Austria. Where Sofia is to go should be decided at the next diet session after we had some ample opportunity to use it to its full extent.

Also, simply giving it to the Byzantines without qualifying that we must be at peace or allied at that time is more than dangerous.

[gibsonsg91921]

Hans makes a good point. Wouldn't it be ironic if we gifted this military powerhouse to an enemy? I think we should only gift it to the Byzantines if we are still allied - not neutral or enemy.

[OverKnight]

Matthias:

I doubt the Byzantines would be stupid enough to betray us, their protectors. Of course, I never thought we would ambush, even accidentally, a Crusade army, so odder things have happened.

Perhaps Duke Arnold could add that caveat into the edict. Also I don't believe the Diet would sanction a Chancellor who did not enforce the Edict considering that situation.

If both Arnold's edict and my own pass, we would be gifting the Byzantines a great deal. Should we ask for anything in return? Vassalage perhaps? (OOC: Probably not the best idea, since we get back much of the money we OOC donate to them, and Vassalage tends to be wonky) Assistance against one of our enemies? Even if we ask for nothing, that would be adequate, but why not take advantage of this gift if it can benefit us.