missile units

[geala]

We should do some calculations, please.

The most common glandes weighted between 50 and 80 gr.. Ranges up to 300metres might possibly be reached with it. Please take a look to www.slinging.org if you want more infromation.

Not to use complicated formulars one can estimate the velocity of the bullets: it must be under, but perhaps near 50 m/s (that is really very much, heavier glandes of course did not reach this velocity). With an 80 gr. glandes you get an E0 of 100 Joule ( I don't think the energy was really as high but this is not so important now). That is the energy niveau of a strong .22 lfb bullet. Let's add the half and imagine a glandes with 150 J.

Let's also put the natural laws aside and presume that magically the projectile has that E0 also at the end of its trajectory and hits a soldier at 250 metres with 150 J energy. You need at least 20 J per qcm or 120 J per square inch to fracture the human skull at the forehead. I have not measured what is the amount of square inches with what the glandes would hit, but maybe 3 qcm or 0,5 square inches would be a conversative estimation.

With this as a result it is rather probable that a soldier without a helmet would receive a severe head wound, or a skull fracture, which could easily be deadly. But the soldier with a metall helmet with soft padding inside would even not be knocked unconscious. The helmet delivers the energy of the projectile to a much greater area, making it worthless. The US Army regards an energy of nearly 800 J necessary to render a soldier unconscious or wound him if the helmet is hit. Ancient helmets would have performed worse but the relation is clear.

If you are not convinced because of the ancient reports being in your mind please consider this: an arrow from a strong longbow normally reaches an energy level of 80 to 120 J. By coincidence the arrows weight about the same as a sling missile and travel with roughly the same velocity. It is no surprise that it hits soldiers with the same energy (and btw the same momentum, if you want to bring into play this obsolete theory). So it is no difference wether you get hit by an arrow or a sling missile: if the arrow is stopped and does not penetrate the body all energy is transformed as blunt energy, but nobody claims that this blunt energy of arrows is devastating.

Now a word to the 1 lb glandes traveling with 100 mph. That would be 453 gr. with a speed of 45 m/s (I am used to the metric system, sry), resulting in a E0 of 458 J. I think you have the Balearic slingers in mind, using big stones of 1 mnai weight (about 436 gr.) and saving some day for the Carthaginians. I really doubt that anybody in the world would receive this velocity with that heavy load but even at lower velocities such heavy projectiles would be very effective of course. But you cannot reach 200 metres with it in a world with an atmosphere and gravity. Therefore my thought to reduce the range of the EB slingers if the AP attribute is kept. (because I rely strongly on my Greek sphendonetai that would be a catastrophy for me too btw )

I think at a range of 200 metres the sling missiles were not more armour piercing than the bullets of the Napoleonic soldiers which travel much faster and could not pierce a (very thick) cuirass at 50 metres. Both cannot knock out armoured soldiers.

[Imperator]

That's a very compelling, albeit confusing, argument

[mcantu]

Geala,

Those energy numbers you gave are at the point of launch. As soon as a projectile leaves its launcher (bow, sling, gun barrel) it begins to slow down. Irregular shaped/non-aerodynamic objects will slow faster. There are online ballistics calculators to show how much energy a projectile has at different ranges and trajectory as well. I believe you would need to know the BC (ballistic coefficient) of the projectile though...

Also, are the weights you are giving in grams (g) or grains (gr)?

[bovi]

Those energy numbers you gave are at the point of launch. As soon as a projectile leaves its launcher (bow, sling, gun barrel) it begins to slow down.

You miss his point, which I understand as: Even if the projectile magically sailed through the air without resistance, it would not be enough to do the damage, so with resistance it will be even less effective.

[Watchman]

Then again, I don't think anyone's really proposing an effective range of 300 meters for slings or anything else short of an artillery weapon for that matter. The maximum range a hand weapon could send a projectile to and the effective range - especially against armour - are two very different things after all.

As for the terminal impact thing, I suspect sling bullets are by far more like musket balls (albeit with generally by far better aerodynamic performance) than arrows. Even with their über-shitty flight characteristics heavy musket balls had notably more penetrative power at long ranges than arrows (although hitting with the unstabilized things was another issue), and retained their energy relatively well due to the combination of high mass and compact size. The same basic principle lies behind modern large-calibre sniper rifles AFAIK.

Although contemporaries observed balls hitting from a long range felt "like strong punches" and just caused bruising. Then again, the ability of arrows to cause more than superficial injuries - especially against armour - at long distances wasn't exactly the best either...

But alas the RTW engine does not account for the decrease in projectile effectiveness with distance, so...

[mcantu]

You miss his point, which I understand as: Even if the projectile magically sailed through the air without resistance, it would not be enough to do the damage, so with resistance it will be even less effective.

misread it the first time...whoops

[Sakkura]

By coincidence the arrows weight about the same as a sling missile and travel with roughly the same velocity.

Arrows and bullets (particularly lead bullets) do not travel at roughly the same velocity. Arrows have far more air resistance slowing them down, which is why they rely on a sharp point to concentrate their smaller impact on and achieve penetration.