Imperial Diet IV

[TevashSzat]

I already accept the fact that you Siegfried will be Kaiser as I cannot even get close to the number of votes to oust you, but my amendment is merely proposed to stop any further succesion disputes. I fear that you have not read my amendment clearly as it states the Dukes and The King of outremer do not decide on the Kaiser at every succession, but only if a significant portion of the electors disagree. I shall amend my CA to the following

Charter Amendment 11.1: Whenever a large dispute arises over the legitamacy of one's succesion to a position of high power (Kaiser, King of Outremer, or Dukedom), a council shall be set forth to discuss the events and vote on who shal succede. Should the position of Kaiser be questioned, the four Dukes and the King of Outremer shall decide who is to become Kaiser. Should a Dukedom or the King of Outremer be under dispute, those not directly involved in the dispute shall be part of the council. In order for the council to be formed, at least one quater of the voting power in the Reich is needed to for the council to be formed. Regarding the dukes, half of the voting period within the house is needed as the same with the King of Outremer which requires half of the crusader's votes

Your edict is something that I just cannot support. We have dukes for a purpose so that we can represent our house. By making that decision open to everyone, then you are just favoring whatever houses whose members cannot keep their pants on, something that I proudly am not part of.

[OverKnight]

Matthias has been quietly following the debate in the Diet. He speaks briefly:

I will second CA 11.2.

Matthias looks like he will say more, but resumes his silence.

[Privateerkev]

an aide brings in a letter

I will second edict 11.9

Long live the Kaiser

[Stig]

Duke Scherer CA 11.1 makes more sense now, however remember that the position of King of the Outremer cannot be under dispute, no person holds that office till he dies. The King is appointed by the Kaiser every Diet Session, as such we officially now do not have a King of the Outremer, and there are no Crusader Counts, people will hold these offices when the Kaiser appoints them. As such the King of the Outremer does not have the power to appoint his heir, if I remember correctly he can't even appoint Crusader Counts, this is all done by the Kaiser.

[Ituralde]

Duke Sherer, I fully understand your concerns for a regulated succession in future. As you can see our current Charter with my added CA 11.2 will ensure that in the future no unclarities can arise during succession. Is it not only because of Emperor Jobst untimely announcment of his heir that there is doubt cast on his decision? Had he appointed me earlier in front of this body, I believe there would be no doubt about the rightfulness of my ascension, although I fear it might not have stiffled all resentments.

Your CA 11.1 is too far-reaching to be justified by the case of my personal ascension. I will not tolerate such a drastic change to our Charter. Why get a thid party involved in the succession process, why further complicate the matter for future generations? The current office holder publicly declares his heir and that's the matter settled then!

I do however understand that the case of my ascension may be special and as such deserves a further investigation so that all sides can be satisfied. I don't want to see it used as a pretext though to pass unwieldy pieces of legislations that will trouble many generations to come.
In fact, I feel it is most important that every member of his Diet gets his chance to say and vote his oppinion on the matter. If it works for Edicts and Charter Amendments, I don't see why it wouldn't work in this case. Either way the decision process will be influenced by the Dukes who decide, whether a vote is appropriate, and then every Elector can reach a decision. It could easily be the other way around though. Well, what about the following then:

Edict 11.10:
The proof brought forward by Emperor Siegfried concerning Emperor Jobsts last words was not sufficient enough. Therefore the Dukes of the four Houese and the King of Outremere shall convene and decide in a unanimous vote, whether Emperor Siegfrieds ascension to the throne has been rightful or not.


I think that should suffice. Oh, and I would like to take this opportunity to reaffirm Conrad Salier as King of Outremere, who has been a loyal subject to my predecessors, and shall have the chance to recapture Jerusalem under his rule.

He returns to his seat and whispers to his Tutor to fetch Dieter immediately

[Privateerkev]

another letter is brought in

I will second edict 11.10

Long live the Kaiser

[Stuperman]

Just to please those legal Nit pickers Edict 11.7 and 11.8 Are infact 2 of the 3 Bavarian household Edicts, I would hope that there would be a third comming soon.

[Cecil XIX]

I second CA 11.2 and Edict 11.9.

[gibsonsg91921]

I urge the members of this Diet to second Edict 11.6 - the Polish fortress of Vilnius is a constant plague on the Duchy of Franconia and soon will be for Austria as well if we take Bran. The Polish Nobles recruited there are difficult to destroy on the battlefield. While the majority of you electors believe that Krakow should be the next Polish target, in reality the conquest of Vilnius would hurt our enemies more and assist in the protect of war-torn Thorn.

[Privateerkev]

another letter is brought in

In the interest of house unity, I will second edict 11.6

[Stuperman]

Enlighten me good Franconians, where is Vilinus, north of Hylatch, but south of Riga? I am rather unfamiliar with that area of the world.

[gibsonsg91921]

Indeed - it is but a few miles east of Thorn, and is the major troop production center for the Poles.

[Stig]

Many times I wanted to take out Vilnius, but sending the FHA on such an expedition is too dangerous at the moment. I'd rather protect our known borders with it than moving it far away from Franconia.

[gibsonsg91921]

If Thorn can be kept safe for long enough its garrison can be almost a full stack, and the Imperial Army of the Interior can and is defending the other areas. I believe that it can be safe if I attack Poles along the way.

[Stuperman]

Ansehelm, perhaps you could make it a target along your Grand Russina Crusade? If only taking it, retraining, turn into a town and abandon it. Or keep it a castle and use it as a base of operations for the Russian Crusade?

[gibsonsg91921]

I suppose Ansehelm could modify his Edict regarding the Russian Crusade to include the attack of Vilnius.

[Cecil XIX]

I second Edict 11.6.

[Stig]

No, I would prefer to move on Moscow as quickly as possible. As it is now we don't have the resources to do a long campaign.
My mission is to speed through Russian territory, recruit mercenaries when Moscow comes into sights and take it. By then we will have a new Diet Session and the army needs to return, draw a line between Thorn and Moscow and you end up in Vilnius.

[econ21]

I propose:

Charter Amendment 11.3: The King of Outremer is allowed to propose three Edicts (or Charter Amendments) per Diet Session. Prior to being tabled in the Diet, these must be seconded by two Crusader Counts in the Council of Crusaders.

My Lords, the administration of Outremer is a @#$%^&!!!ing nightmare: sand and camel dung, hashish and hashashin. It does my 'ead in even thinking about it. And that's not to mention marauding @#$%^&!!!ing horse lords and jihadi @#$%^&!!!s from Egypt. I dunno how King Salier copes with it.

In all seriousness, managing Outremer is at least as complex and challenging as managing one of the Reich's four Houses, whose Dukes have the right to propose three Ducal Edicts. Therefore, it is fitting that the King of Outremer have the same flexibility to seek multiple legislation to assist in the good management of his Kingdom.

[Privateerkev]

another letter is brought in

I second CA 11.3

[Stig]

Makes sense Elberhard, however I think some people fear that persons will see the Outremer as their House, instead of their original Duchy.
This will make sure the 4 Houses system is lifted and there won't be any balance anymore.

However it is also so that the Outremer as it is now can't start as many Edicts as it needs, and thus I second this CA 11.3.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

Seconded.

In addition, I may as well re-post the list of Crusader Counts here for convenience:

Antioch - Conrad Salier
Damascus - Karl Zirn
Adana - Matthias Steffin
Acre - Elberhard
Aleppo - Fredricus von Hamburg
Edessa - Jan von Hamburg

[TinCow]

Once again I will state that this legislation, now identified as Charter Amendment 11.3, is an attempt to give benefits to Outremer which makes it stronger and more powerful than any Duchy. As King Salier has pointed out, the King of Outremer will gain no advantage from this legislation, as he has been forced to abandon his House to take up this post. However, this is not required by any other Crusading Count. As a result, this legislation gives all Crusading Counts access to SEVEN edict proposals, while those of us who remain to protect the Reich have access to no more than FOUR edict proposals. This does not even take into account the extra Diet influence these Counts receive as a result of their Eastern service. This is a blatant attempt to give Outremer priority over all other Houses. If the King of Outremer wishes to propose legislation that would correct the legislative inequality for himself alone, maybe that could be considered fair and equitable. However, giving this power to ALL Crusading Counts is a direct assault on the very institution of the Ducal Houses.

As for an inability to legislate in Outremer, don't make me laugh. There are SEVEN Electors out there already, giving instant access to SEVEN personal edicts and all TWELVE Ducal Edicts. If none of the Electors believes Outremer is important enough to use their own personal edicts or to propose it in their proper Ducal Houses, then surely Outremer is not in any dire need of management.

[Stuperman]

11.3, eh, I wonder though..a hoarse cough erupts from Gerhard's lungs, momentarily scielencing him..pardon me, I wonder though Given that the Kingship of the Outremer can change during the course of the diet session, Should some provision be set out as to which King the edicts fall under?

Or make the Time of Kingship re-announcement Official? to co-inside(sp) with the opening of the Diet session? after the voting is done?

edit: Lothar makes a good point, should not the crusader counts also have to give up thier house loyalties as well? (OOC: this could lead to problems for some houses, Bavaria , for example would only have 2 electors if this happens, effectively preventing any edicts from them/us.)

[Stig]

I agree with you on one thing Lothar, I do not understand why Crusader Counts get extra influence. Hell, simple counts have more influence than Dukes, that should not happen.
Outremer is now settled and a part of the Reich, there's no more use to give that extra influence in my opinion. It's strange that Counts have the same influence as Dukes.

[TinCow]

Indeed, Ansehelm. Regardless of our past quarrels, I know we both seek to do what is best for our Houses, and I respect you for that. As such, I will use my personal edict to propose legislation to counter this growing erosion of the power of the Duchies.

Charter Amendment 11.4:

Clause 3.10 is amended to read as follows (changes in bold):

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +6 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 4 points):
Duke: +3
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.

Charter Amendment 9.1 is amended to read as follows (changes in bold):

4. The Kingdom will be overseen by a King of Outremer, who will be appointed by the Emperor at each full Diet session. The King will temporarily renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his appointment (e.g. if Duke, must appoint a Steward). The King of Outremer may propose up to 3 personal Edicts during each Diet session, but 2 must specifically deal with Outremer affairs.

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia. Antioch will be the capital of Outremer and an Imperial province governed by the King of Outremer. Edessa will also be an Imperial province, governed by a Count chosen by the King of Outremer. The Crusading Count for a settlement must come from the appropriate House. They will gain +1 influence, but only if they are not already a Count in their Duchy, and only for the Diet session that marks their appointment. The cap of 6 influence for all but the Emperor remains.

This legislation favors no person and no House. All Duchies benefit equally and all Dukes are restored to their rightful place as figures of power and status. As it stands now, Steward Ansehelm is correct, Dukes have no more influence than Crusader Counts. This is unacceptable. No Count should ever be able to command as much influence in the Diet as a Duke. Even if we were simply to increase the Dukes' influence, that would not be enough, for two Crusader Counts alone would already wield more power than a single Duke. This is equally absurd. Crusader Counts remain under the authority of the Dukes and they should never be able to wield his level of power.

In deference to King Salier's complaints about legislative ability, and to show that I am not an unfair man, this amendment gives him the ability to create two extra edicts to aid Outremer. Surely this will solve his dilemma and ensure that Outremer is effectively managed. It is certainly a far better solution than making Outremer more powerful than the Duchies.

[Stig]

I second you proposed CA 11.4 Lothar, that should balance out things. Dukes are the most important after the Kaiser, tho I propose you change somethings:
First, the King of the Outremer should have the same influence as the Dukes, afterall he is just as important and reigns an even larger part of the Reich.
Secondly, I think that the leader of a crusade should gain an extra bonus point. Afterall what he does, and I know people won't agree, is for the greater good of Christianity. This leader should ofcourse also keep this influence after the crusade has ended.

[Cecil XIX]

Sigismund rises to address the Diet.

My lords, these past ten years has been the most tumultuous in living memory. We are fortunate in that things are mostly back on track, but we cannot assume that we will be so fortunate in the future. Future Chancellors may be more subtle in their machinations and more secure in their political support even as border defenses are weakened and discontent rises. To act as both a deterent and a warning against future Chancellors who may not have the best interests of the Reich at heart, I propose Charter Amendment 11.5, which reads as follows:

2.7 All cities must have their maximum amount of free upkeep militia within their walls at all times.

The beauty of this amendment is that it is simple to execute, while far-reaching in its consequences and revealing of the character of its Chancellor should it not be upheld. It will require only a minimum extra work to be completed, allow more leeway in taxation, act as a deterrant to small-scale invasion, and should any future Chancellors fail to keep the proper troop levels it will serve as an early warning that something is afoot. This a simple piece of no-nonsense legislation that can be implemented almost immediately, after which it costs the Reich nothing except the vigilance that is already required of us. Thank you.

Sigismund resumes his seat.

[OverKnight]

Matthias reviews the updated list of legislation and speaks:

I will second CA 11.3.

CA 11.5 is a good idea, but I believe the language to be too restrictive. What if part of the garrison needs to be sent outside the walls to chase down a small force of brigands? That action would violate the CA as currently written.

[FactionHeir]

I applaud Siegfried von Kastilien for his edict 11.10, but I feel that an unanimous vote is impossible to reach. I shall support the eduict if it is amended to a simple majority vote. I am certain then we can bring an end to this dispute. Also, your edict only considers whether your ascension was rightful, but not whether in case it is not, you may remain on the throne or not. This also needs fixing,.

I will present evidence to the Council of Five once an appropriate edict/CA is passed to allow the Dukes to determine the outcome.

I also second CA 11.4 and would like to propose following motion:

CA 11.5: The position of King of Outremer is appointed by the emperor. This appointment lasts for the duration of the emperors reign or the Kings lifetime, whichever is shorter. The King of Outremer is permitted to resign, if the emperor is willing to accept the resignation, upon which a new King is appointed by the emperor.
If the King of Outremer is deemed incapable of the assignment, he may be impeached by the emperor and 2 Dukes.

My lords, I feel that appointing the King of Outremer each diet session may be tedious and there usually would be no reason for the emperor to change this position mid term. This also ensures that this position is not given out lightly and only rests in capable hands.

OOC: Might not be the best explanation, but the best I can come up with considering I need to hurry out now.