Imperial Diet V

[Stig]

Gert von Runstede:
I think Duke Ansehelm would agree with you Arnold, he even prepared a Edict concerning Vilnius:
Edict 12.?
The fortress of Vilnius will be attacked by the FHA by the time the Teutonic Army decides to come back. They will meet in Vilnius and if one of the armies has problems reaching it's goals it will be supported by the other. This also makes it possible for the FHA to return and protect Breslau or Thorn.
Next to that: if Vilnius proves too dangerous and comes under constant attack, taking too much of the Reichs resources, military buildings will be destroyed and the city will be left.

I think it would be up to Herr Peter to decide to replace it or not.

[AussieGiant]

Arnold

I would have to agree with your Duke there von Runstede.

Perhaps the wording could be changed? As it is I would have to vote against it due to my concerns. Specific mention of the FHA would be enough to ease my thoughts on the matter.

May I also add, I applaud the intestinal fortitude of Wolfgang Hummel on him running for the position of Chancellor.

The more it is contested the healthier the result. Don't prejudge the man too harshly. He's sworn fealty and that is the end of the matter.

Wolfgang what are your thoughts on the Austrian front?

[econ21]

Elberhard: Given that our finances appear to be in good shape, I think the time may be right to propose CA 12.6:

CA 12.6 (1) Each House will have TWO standing Household Armies. They will operate according to CA5.1 in all respects, but have separate commanders appointed by the Duke.
(2) Outremer will have two standing armies. They will operate in accordance with CA9.1, but have separate commanders appointed by the King.
(3) The Kaiser and Prinz will each command standing Imperial armies, of the guideline size given in CA5.1. The Kaiser and Prinz can each give orders for their army during full Diet sessions. They are expected to personally command their own armies but can nominate a replacement commander at any time if they are too busy attending to civil matters. The Chancellor and the Kaiser/Prinz are expected to liase closely over the use of the deployment of the Kaiser/Prinz's army.

Electors, our House and Outremer borders are now simply too large to be adequately defended by single armies. The only issue is one of cost, but given that, according to CA5.1, Household armies need only be 7-10 regiments strong, I do not believe that will be insurmountable. Indeed, I suspect we could come close to implementing CA12.6 merely by redesignating some formations.

As to the Kaiser and Prinz's armies, I believe such forces are approprate for the offices. A Kaiser or Prinz should not have to sit idly by the Chancellor's table, waiting for @#$%^&!!!ing crumbs to fall before being able to act. Moreover, these two standing Imperial armies would give the Reich some flexibility in plugging any gaps in our defences created by the decision of Houses. As standing armies, they would also be immediately available for specific operations willed by the Diet or the Chancellor.

The Chancellor will still retain the power to raise and direct as many additional Imperial armies as he thinks fit.

[FactionHeir]

Quite well thought out, my brother. While it may be expensive, I believe the added security is well worth it and should also make all houses ecstatic about their new armies.
Consider it seconded.

[OverKnight]

I will second CA 12.6

[TinCow]

Jan, it is good to see that you have your priorities straight. No more than a day after you a promoted to the position of King of Outremer, likely for the remainder of your natural life, you move to increase the influence of that position. For the benefit of the rest of the electorate, let me edit your Amendment so that it may be a little bit more clear:

Charter Amendment 12.4:

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +6 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 4 points):
Duke: +3
Jan von Hamburg: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

As for Charter Amendment 12.5, this is yet another direct assault on the Ducal Houses! The lands you speak of belong exclusively to the Ducal Houses! They are not the possessions of Outremer because Outremer does not exist as anything more than an institution of management! If a Duke chooses not to send an Elector to Outremer, then that House's possessions in the East will be managed by the Duke, just as with all other Ducal lands.

By proposing this Amendment, you see to take away yet more Ducal control over Outremer, further making it its own House. Need I remind you, yet again, of what the Outremer Charter says?

2. The Kingdom of Outremer is an integral part of the Reich. It is not a fifth House.

Stop attempting to make Outremer a Fifth House! This is outrageous and I will not stand for it!

[AussieGiant]

While I have no real issue with the increase in influence of the King, I do believe the position should be rotated as is the Chancellors.

As for Lothars analysis of CA 12.5, then I would have to rescind my support as it is clear this change would sever the ties that created Outremer in the first place...Those ties are the very houses that sent men and money there to secure the region.

I'm inclined to ask Lord Zirn back to Austria and govern Damascus myself.

Sitting Arnold confers with his retinue on the matter

[TinCow]

A rotating position of King of Outremer would certainly make it less odious than it is now. If Jan is willing to amend Charter Amedment 12.4 to also make the position of King a single-term one, then I would be slightly more amendable to this course.

[AussieGiant]

I agree Lothar, but now of equal importance is the severing of ties between Outremer and the Reich.

Of course due to the situation in Austria you can all assume it would be Austria to first lose all contact with the work my Father did out there.

I'm going to speak to the Kaiser personally at this time.

[Privateerkev]

*sigh*

Lothar,

The day I let you edit one of my amendments, is the day Outremer freezes over. While you claim it is for "clarity" it is in actually to perpertrate fearmongering. I could have done the same with CA 11.4 last session when you raised Ducal influence. I could have put up an edited version of the CA with the words Lothar Steffen in place of Duke since you are heir to the Ducal throne. But that would have done nothing to further debate.

With regards to CA 12.4, this is for the benefit of all Kings who come after me. All that it ensures is that every King will have at least equal influence to his own Crusader Counts. I am sure everyone can admit that the King of Outremer should not have less influence than his own people. My legislation keeps the Dukes in a position of primacy. Lothar is just spreading fear and panic for his own political ends that are best known to only him.

As for CA 12.5, you are flat out wrong on the law Lothar. I hope this is an honest error and not an attempt to intentionaly mislead Duke Arnold. The Charter of Outremer is very clear on this matter. If there is not a Crusader Count, then the Crusader County is managed by the King of Outremer.

6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count.

There is no provision in law that allows for the Duke to manage any territory in Outremer. I already have to manage any territory without a count. All CA 12.5 does is allow me to place a count in a county regardless of house affiliation if house affiliation can not be met. CA 11.4 already limits the influence that Crusader Counts get so offering them settlements to manage is one of the only things I can do for them.

If you want these things, Lothar, you will just have to offer CA's to amend the Charter and not state things in the law that simply do not exist.

As for the length of my term, maybe there is some middle ground. I have a war to run and 10 years is too short to be changing the head of the army. But some are nervous at the lifetime appointment. To me, I am happy as long as there is a mechanism that allows for me to be removed. There is already such a mechanism. Perhaps someone will want to pass something that strengthens that mechanism. Otherwise, I am an agent of the Kaiser. Appointed by him to oversee, what is, an Imperial project. Yes the houses contribute, but one house does not do this on its own. It takes all four houses. Which requires coordination. Which makes it Imperial and that puts it under the pervue of the Kaiser.

[gibsonsg91921]

I concur with my brother's revised Edict. The reason I did not specify which army was so any army, Franconian, Austrian, or a combination of both, could move to attack.

[TinCow]

Then clearly there is a conflict in the law, which we will have to resolve. Four of Outremer's provinces actively belong to the Ducal Houses.

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia.

And Dukes govern settlements that are part of their House but not controlled by a Count:

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

Since there appears to be a conflict in the law, I shall use my personal edict to rectify it.

Charter Amendment 12.7: The Charter of Outremer (Charter Amendment 9.1) shall be amended by striking the following line:
The King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count.

Do I need to once again emphasize that Outremer is not a House?! The Charter of Outremer itself specifically says so. We must get away from this preposterous notion of giving Outremer more and more privileges at every Diet session! Outremer exists to manage the Reich's lands in the East, nothing more.

[Privateerkev]

*puts hand to forehead*

There is no conflict in the law Lothar. You just don't like the law.

Look, I have a war to run. I can't be running to the Dukes asking them to please build my barracks. I was picked to coordinate the defense of Outremer and that is what I will do. I need to be able to build in crusader counties without counts. Your Ducal micromanagment of the war effort in Outremer is going to get my men killed.

If you want me to manage the Reich's lands in the East then let me manage and do not pass a preposterous law that will be a micromanagement nightmare.

Furthermore, your CA does not provide for the Duke to manage the building in those counties. It merely ensures that no one will be able to build there if I have no count. Crusader Counts are not Counts. Therefore law 4.5 has no effect in Outremer.

[TinCow]

The is entirely incorrect, Jan. As I have alreay shown you, all Outremer provinces belong to the Ducal Houses and to the Emperor. There is not a single province in Outremer that is outside of the Ducal Houses or the Reich. As that is the situation, the Dukes and the Emperor are fully authorized by law to manage them if Counts are not appointed to them.

[Privateerkev]

And you will need to point to the specific part of the law that says that Dukes manage Outremer Counties. There is no law. You are just making this stuff up. The Charter of Outremer is quite specific on this issue. If your CA passes, it merely ensures that no one can build in a county without a crusader count. Even the Kaiser can't direct the building of these settlements. It is left to Crusader Counts and then to me if there isn't one. All CA 12.5 does is allow me to put a count in a county if I need him there. I will give house preference but I can not have ungoverned counties.

[TinCow]

Need I again state that there are no provinces that 'belong' to Outremer! Damascus is part of Austria, Adana is part of Bavaria, Acre is part of Swabia, Aleppo is part of Franconia, and Antioch and Edessa belong to the Emperor. The Charter of Outremer specifically states this! You are attempting to completely remove these provinces from the control of their rightful owners.

[Privateerkev]

No, I am attempting to follow the Charter. Yes, these provinces belong to those that you say it belongs to. But, the Charter creates the position of King to manage these collection of provinces. And the Kaiser picked me to be that manager. The Dukes never had control of what is built in Outremer. If you wish that to change, then you will need to pass legislation that changes it and stop pretending that such a law exists when it clear does not.

I ask you again. Point to the specific law that gives Dukes the right to direct building in Outremer.

[Tamur]

*Fritz von Kastilien enters the Diet chamber glowering. He sits at the Franconian table for a moment, then jumps up*

My apologies to my esteemed colleagues here for my absence the past two days. My castle seems to have taken some water in the recent rains. And good help is hard to find!

*Fritz pounds the table before him with his fist, then slowly raises his head again as he composes himself*

To use a term of the ancient ancestors of Stettin... Hwaet!

As for the legislation proposed thus far:

I agree with Ansehelm that Vilnius needs to come under the Reich's control. And I am sure that the combination of the Ducal army and the FHA, under Péter's control, will be sufficient to destroy any opposition. However, I must ask Captain von Runstede if he would agree to the following emendations?

Edict 12.4

Dependent on 12.2 passing, the fortress of Vilnius will be attacked by the FHA by the time the Teutonic Army decides to come back. They will meet in Vilnius and if one of the armies has problems reaching it's goals it will be supported by the other. This also makes it possible for the FHA to return and protect Breslau or Thorn.

Edict 12.5
Dependent on 12.2 passing, if Vilnius proves too dangerous and comes under constant attack, taking too much of the Reich's resources, military buildings will be destroyed and the city will be left.

I have more to say, but will wait for the good sir to approve or deny these changes.

[TinCow]

Jan, you really must clear the sand out of your ears when you show up in Rome. We are not some Eastern hovel where cleanliness can be neglected. Every single province in Outremer belongs to a Ducal House or the the Emperor. The Charter clearly states that the Dukes and the Emperor manage all settlements that belong to them and which do not have a Count. By striking the conflicting portion of the Charter of Outremer, my amendment distinctly and legally restores the rights of the Dukes and the Emperor under the Charter. This is not a complex legal rule, so do your best to not look the fool in public, word will get back to the Mongols.

[AussieGiant]

Standing to make his point clear, the intensity of the Duke begins to grow.

Lets be clear gentlemen!!

Outremer is meant to be an administrative body to allow semi independent governing of the HOUSE lands out there. That was the intention.

The Kingdom of Outremer is an integral part of the Reich. It is not a fifth House.

The fact that until this time there have always been House Representatives to goven the Ducal holdings doesn't not remove the fact that they are implicitely allocated to the House by name.

The whole point of the charter was to equally represent the four houses in the east and to give every house a stake in the region!!

All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia. Antioch will be the capital of Outremer and an Imperial province governed by the King of Outremer. Edessa will also be an Imperial province, governed by a Count chosen by the King of Outremer. The Crusading Count for a settlement must come from the appropriate House.


THAT IS ALL FACT.

As far as I'm concerned if my House is unable to supply a crusader count for Damscus then it is Austrian by decree. As the crusader count must come from the House it is assigned to then if that is not fulfilled, it does not then magically pass onto someone else outside Austria as I am Duke of the House.

There are technicalites as per $%#^ing usual, BUT!!!!! Common sense must prevail in the spirit of what was written.

[Privateerkev]

And again, you can not point to the specific law that bestows the power that you claim it does. Until you do so, your argument is meaningless.

[TinCow]

Dear God, Jan. Here is your bloody law, which I have already quoted to you:

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Jens Hummel:

For Chrissake, here we go with these ridiculous technicalities again!

Answer me these questions, Jan:

1. Do the Dukes not rule over their Houses?

2. Does the Charter not give away specific provinces to specific Houses?

3. Therefore, do the Dukes not control provinces which are specifically assigned to their Houses?

And CA 12.2 still needs a seconder!

[Privateerkev]

Yes, but Crusader Counts are not Counts. For your purposes Lothar, the law would have to read,

Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Crusader Count.

We already seperate Count and Crusader Count in law so this should be a no-brainer. Dukes govern settlements not governed by Counts. The King governs settlements not governed by Crusader Counts. Very simple. I hope this clears that up and we can move on.

[AussieGiant]

Jan,

The fact that...

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

...does not appear in the same section of the legislation as the Outremer Charter does not invalidate it's authority.

You yourself said you understood my point earlier about the House's and what they gave to create Outremer. The Charter is there to ensure no house is left unrepresented. If there is not count then by right the Duke of that house is able to send you build orders...surely this can be understood if people allow themselves to see it?

Arnold stops at this point...mentally seems to repreat what Jan just said

Are you $^£^$ing serious Jan!!!?? The word "Crusader" allows all the other wording to magically become invalid??!!

Christ on the Cross, if Kaiser Henry could hear that jem I'm sure he would just pack it all in and move to Timbaktu!!

[Privateerkev]

Yes, but there is no law providing for Dukes to build in Outremer. If people here wish it, then they must present a CA that changes the law.

[TinCow]

*Lothar's eyes goes wide and his face gets dark red.*

A Crusader Count is not a Count?! What the hell is he then, a bloody Crusader Chicken?!

This is the man that the Kaiser has appointed to be King of Outremer?! We might as well abandon the East right now!

[Privateerkev]

Lothar, ad hominum attacks do little to strengthen your argument.

Crusader Counts and Counts are different by law. Even you should be able to see that.

[AussieGiant]

Jan,

If that's your defence, then you've got to admit the word count is not in your favour.

There are about four, far larger and more detailed pieces of legislation which pre-empt your Crusader Count defence before it's even relevant.

Good luck.

[Privateerkev]

Count is a legal definition. It is a title bestowed on an elector by a Duke.

Crusader Count is also a legal definition. It is a title bestowed on an elector by a King.

These definitions are given power from the Charter. A law that applies to one legal definition does not automatically apply to the other. They are seperate.

The Charter of Outremer empowers the Kaiser to select a King who manages those provinces which are laid out in the Charter. The King bestows the title of Crusader Count as he sees fit. These Crusader Counts manage the settlement that they are given. Any settlements in Outremer not managed by a Crusader Count, are managed by the King, according to the Outremer Charter.

Lothar has basically invented an issue where there was none. And Duke Arnold has allowed himself to be fooled by Lothar's "legal obfuscating", to borrow a term.

If Duke's wish to build in Outremer, then someone needs to change the law. Otherwise, we are all just running in place here.