King of the Romans OOC thread XI

[FactionHeir]

Meh, another (unfinished) game from CA in the making.

[TinCow]

Also, TC and I talked a while ago on the last OOC thread about engineering an Outremer crisis. I just didn't think I could be in a position to do it so soon.

It wasn't an 'Outremer Crisis' it was a general 'Catastrophic Event' in the Reich. I have thought about it a bit since then as well and I don't think it would be good to really 'pin' the event on a single character, unless the player agrees to it beforehand. As we discussed before, I anticipate trying to do something 'massive' at the very beginning of the 1320 Chancellorship. I envision losing many territories (at least half) and essentially reducing the Reich to the core German cities and perhaps one territory in Outremer. At the same time, armies and garrisons will be disbanded all over the place, making us vulnerable. If it's possible to completely empty the recruitment pools, that would be good as well to prevent us from simply re-recruiting our armies instantly.

The 1320 date is designed to occur right before the plague and the Timurids, for further excitement. We've got a month or so before we're at that point though, so we don't need to discuss it in detail now.

[Stig]

Actually TC I think we shouldn't keep a core of German cities, we should simply keep the happier cities.
Then we end up with an Empire consisting of (for example:)
Hamburg, Frankfurt, Paris, Thorn, Pragua, Bologna, Milan, Antioch, Ragusa, Ajaccio (and some more)

That way it will be even more fun, as it's a proper rebellion, we have a city there, a city here, not some proper Reich.

[OverKnight]

I envision losing many territories (at least half) and essentially reducing the Reich to the core German cities and perhaps one territory in Outremer. At the same time, armies and garrisons will be disbanded all over the place, making us vulnerable.

My second reaction would be that would be a tough manifesto to get elected on.

My fellow Electors, I plan to bring the Reich to it knees, bringing forth an age of darkness unparalled in history. Few of you will survive it, and all that we have built will be torn asunder. Chaos shall reign, and I will be it's agent. I humbly ask for your vote.

I'm glad I won't be in charge for that.

Could be interesting though.

[TinCow]

To make it fair, we would have to proceed IC as if we did not expect anything to occur. If no one else wants it, I will happily take that Chancellorship. I am confident I could manipulate the game well enough to make the 'event' occur and I also have faith in my ability to have Lothar survive any taint that might stain the Chancellor under who's watch it occurred.

[Tamur]

My fellow Electors, I plan to bring the Reich to it knees, bringing forth an age of darkness unparalled in history. Few of you will survive it, and all that we have built will be torn asunder. Chaos shall reign, and I will be it's agent. I humbly ask for your vote.

Great way to start the morning, thanks OverKnight

As for TinCow's idea, it certainly could be interesting. Given that we can roll over anyone in battle (unless it's thrown, like poor Salier) we need a stronger challenge. Engineering that will be a challenge in itself, but I do agree some event like that would be a good idea.

[Warmaster Horus]

Smart. Very smart. That's a pretty good idea.

Beside that, I've a question. We've seen that our finances are in a pretty good situation. However, with the passing of CA 12.6 (the two armies per house one), won't that kind of ... be problematic? 5 more armies to support might impair our economy more than a bit, no?

[OverKnight]

For the most part, the HAs can be split in two and still be legal. Maybe throw in a few Cav units.

It'll take some time to fully implement.

[StoneCold]

Also is it tougher for you guys to try and keep the armies while at the same time suffering plague and loss of territories?

[TinCow]

Hopefully so. In the early days of the game, the economic crunch made it so that the Chancellor could not fulfill all build queues. That added another layer to the political bargaining process which has fallen to the wayside recently.

[Stig]

If no one else wants it, I will happily take that Chancellorship. I am confident I could manipulate the game well enough to make the 'event' occur and I also have faith in my ability to have Lothar survive any taint that might stain the Chancellor under who's watch it occurred.

Might be an idea ... tho from passive we would have to go to a direct approach again

Actually not such a bad idea, we make a new CA saying that the Chancellor cannot be impeached anymore ... somehow we will agree on that. Then Lothar runs for chancellor and gets it (he has a Hummel as opposition?), and he brings the Reich nothing but destruction, however he cannot be impeached anymore, so ouch time.

[FactionHeir]

The previous Hümmel was not too long ago, so that's kind of unlikely.

However, the 1320 chancellorship happens to fall to Ituralde according to his announcement, and as emperor...its not too easy to impeach him I would believe: "Impeach me and all territories gained will stay Imperial. And I am still young!"

[TinCow]

I thought Ituralde was doing the next Chancellorship (1300)?

[OverKnight]

In an unrelated matter. . .

If you haven't posted a build queue or HA orders, it would be a good idea to do so by tonight. It also might be a good time to update, if needed, on the duty roster.

[Stig]

The previous Hümmel was not too long ago, so that's kind of unlikely.

Currently we're having good chancellors.
Sides we can still come up with some story ... Lothars Gang () for example can make this happen. If it's done by a chancellor ... which is likely, we need to make sure we can't impeach him.
Furthermore no Emergency sessions should be called upon for atleast 10 years.

[Stuperman]

In an unrelated matter. . .

If you haven't posted a build queue or HA orders, it would be a good idea to do so by tonight. It also might be a good time to update, if needed, on the duty roster.

Bavarian build ques will be up in a tonight (8-10 hours)

[Privateerkev]

I'm not the one taking IC discussion OOC am I?

Stig, Please drop the "no IC in the OOC" (boy that sounds weird)

I talked OOC because I saw Ansehelm completely blow up over something Jan did not have much to do with. I was trying to calm you the player down. If I said IC, "I didn't do it", I wouldn't expect people to believe me IC. So, I said it OOC. Now that the election is pretty much over, I'll fill you in. It was Matthias that approached Peter and Fritz. By the time Jan talked to them, they were already voting for Matthias. Jan had very little to do with the "Franconian defection". But, Jan took the heat and kept quiet about Matthias because he was protecting Matthias's election. I know Ansehelm wants to see Jan as the big bogeyman but your OOC posts and PMs are starting to get an edge to them and I do not like where this is going. I want to contain this feud to IC but you have said some pretty wicked stuff in your PM's. I would like to just play the game with you and have us chill. I have zero problems with you the player but our characters hate eachother. I would like to find some way we can be cool OOC while still feud IC. AG and I have worked this out so it is possible.

It wasn't an 'Outremer Crisis' it was a general 'Catastrophic Event' in the Reich.

True, but we briefly talked about an Outremer Crisis a page or two after that. It started with your OOC plea for CA 11.4. Your OOC posts gave me a lot of ideas. Now I can finally implement some of them.

The discussion is on OOC thread 9 page 13 posts: 364, 367, 374, 375 and some posts inbetween. Be proud TC, you gave me inspiration...

[AussieGiant]

Now I've just got two questions:

1) Are their any lands we have taken that have not been officially incorporated that must be given away or rebelled?

2) The Kaiser has at least Bran to allocate...if he wishes...are there any other provinces in the same situation?

[FactionHeir]

Paris is unallocated since Hans' chancellorship. Jobst forgot it, Siegfried doesn't want to give it.
As for unincorporated lands, all are incorporated or have a CA going that is working on the incorporation.

TC: You are right. I lost count of the years and thought it was 1300 now.

[Northnovas]

The OOC thread, the tavern, and the House/Outremer threads are totally unnecessary to understand what is going on. If you read the Diet, you will be fully up to date.

This is so true. There is a lot of nothing in this thread to be informed and how fast it fills up. To add my two cents I am back very early to do disappointing weather and injury. I must have been jinxed with the "desert bug" that Zirn was afflicted with in Damascus.
Some interesting developments but that just makes the game more intriguing. I will finish up my reading and continue to place my votes.

[Cecil XIX]

All this talk of counts and dukes makes me ponder how the feudal system really works.

Realistically speaking, a count's county was his possession just as much as a Duke's duchy is his possession in KOTR. I think that if we stay in a fuedal setting in the next PBEM, provinces should be assigned to an individual by the chancellor/faction leader, with the province becoming the possession of the receiving lord. He should not be able to lose it, but allow others to manage it in his name and gift it in his will the same way Dukes do now.

[Stig]

I talked OOC because I saw Ansehelm completely blow up over something Jan did not have much to do with.

I know that. Ansehelm doesn't. Don't saves Jan OOC, let him save himself IC.

I'm wondering too about our Feudal system. A Duke is above Counts, he should be able to punish them. But here he can't, he can take their County, but take the Crusader Counts, they don't have a County given by a Duke. How on earth can a Duke be boss if he has nothing to be boss about? Same for the King of the Outremer, if a CC loses his County the Duke can simply give him another one, oh the horror.
A Duke/King should be able to ban the members of his house from the Diet and such, just like a Kaiser can ban people.

Sure it is not needed now, but there comes a time when Jan becomes Franconian again

[econ21]

I think it is good to have multiple sources of power and patronage (Count vs Crusader Count). It adds to the politicking (as we have seen recently).

I would not be surprised if in reality Outremer was sometimes an outlet for some who could not make it back home. Sort of like the French foreign legion.

[Privateerkev]

I know that. Ansehelm doesn't. Don't saves Jan OOC, let him save himself IC.

I'm wondering too about our Feudal system. A Duke is above Counts, he should be able to punish them. But here he can't, he can take their County, but take the Crusader Counts, they don't have a County given by a Duke. How on earth can a Duke be boss if he has nothing to be boss about? Same for the King of the Outremer, if a CC loses his County the Duke can simply give him another one, oh the horror.
A Duke/King should be able to ban the members of his house from the Diet and such, just like a Kaiser can ban people.

Sure it is not needed now, but there comes a time when Jan becomes Franconian again

One of the many reasons I plan on jumping houses at the next avatar. Your OOC correspondance with me has led me to believe that I will be unduly punished no matter who I play. A certain amount of political punishment is understandable. But you have led me to believe that your taking this personal.

If Jan loses the Kingship, and things get too bad, I'll just suicide the avatar or ask to transfer to another avatar in another house. Or even a common elector. I just IC and OOC do not want to be Franconian again while Ansehelm is in charge.

Stig, you really should reconsider how your playing the Duke. The absentee-whip-cracker Ducal strategy is not working well for you. Just a suggestion before you alienate anyone else in your house.

And econ,

I totally agree that there should be multiple sources of patronange. But, the sources are wildly unequal. You basically have the King trying to hold off four scared Dukes. With the Kaiser or the Prince (hint hint) in the Diet to keep order, the King has a chance. But lately, the King will just be swimming upstream with no paddle no matter how nice he is.

If we can either find a way to balance out the power, or make the Dukes feel less threatened, then Outremer can work. Otherwise, it will probably be slowly nibbled to death. I rather rework it so it is at least fun again.

[FactionHeir]

I think it is good to have multiple sources of power and patronage (Count vs Crusader Count). It adds to the politicking (as we have seen recently).

I would not be surprised if in reality Outremer was sometimes an outlet for some who could not make it back home. Sort of like the French foreign legion.

It kind of is, but I would tend to agree with Stig that it would add a whole new layer if Dukes had more power over their houses.
Maybe one of the problems is that being count isn't a big difference from being elector now that everyone has avatars.

The average character has +2 influence from stat (15 points is very easy to obtain) and +1 from being elector. So the difference between elector and count is between 3 and 4 total respectively.
If the stat bonus was abolished or the threshold raised (I would recommend basing on chiv/dread and command OR 20+, or 2 stats on 7+), then being count would make a difference.

Of course one could go even further and remove either the 1 influence a plain elector has, or double appointed influence points (including emperor of course) so the difference is really felt.

[FactionHeir]

One of the many reasons I plan on jumping houses at the next avatar. Your OOC correspondance with me has led me to believe that I will be unduly punished no matter who I play. A certain amount of political punishment is understandable. But you have led me to believe that your taking this personal.

If Jan loses the Kingship, and things get too bad, I'll just suicide the avatar or ask to transfer to another avatar in another house. Or even a common elector. I just IC and OOC do not want to be Franconian again while Ansehelm is in charge.

Stig, you really should reconsider how your playing the Duke. The absentee-whip-cracker Ducal strategy is not working well for you. Just a suggestion before you alienate anyone else in your house.

From my experience, Stig separates OOC and IC quite well. I would believe the reason you might not feel that way is because Jan has been working against Stig ever since really, making you take some IC comments maybe somewhat OOCly.

[Tamur]

How on earth can a Duke be boss if he has nothing to be boss about?

Yes, back in the ancient post-Roman days when we did our test run, my drive behind ironing out the financial aspect was primarily concerned with power -- who has it and who doesn't. The more aspects of power we build into the game the richer the experience.

I'm feeling the same way in regards to boss-ness here because of the disconnect between the game and the PBM. There really is very little a Duke (or King) can do to get his Counts in-line besides verbal harranguing.

Hmmm... something to think on.

[Privateerkev]

From my experience, Stig separates OOC and IC quite well. I would believe the reason you might not feel that way is because Jan has been working against Stig ever since really, making you take some IC comments maybe somewhat OOCly.

Then we have had different experiences...

With AG, him and I can have our characters beat eachother senseless but we are still cool OOC. Sure there was a bump in the road last Diet but we worked it out. With Stig, its different. Anytime Jan does something in the game he doesn't like, he gets more hostile in here or in our pm's.

[FactionHeir]

Well, as for greater control over your counts, you could have following system:

A Duke may vote freely as he wishes.
The Duke may remove countship from any elector in his house at the start of a diet session. (Phase 1)
The Duke assigns his counts at the start of a diet session, after removing counts. (Phase 2)
Electors who are not counts need express permission of their duke to cast votes.
Electors may vote regardless if at least 2 counts of their house support them. (This may be done after the count assignment - allows backrooming)

The only problem would be something like Austria, where you don't actually have sufficient electors to override a voting ban.

The above is a system similar to the one I was planning for the next PBM (after KOTR)

[Stig]

From my experience, Stig separates OOC and IC quite well. I would believe the reason you might not feel that way is because Jan has been working against Stig ever since really, making you take some IC comments maybe somewhat OOCly.

I do seperate them very well.
Someone who is discussing his avatars actions OOC doesn't seperate them well. Jan has been an annoyance to Ansehelm ever since he came of age ... as he wanted power. Ansehelm doesn't like that, simple as that. Hell I'm also starting to do this now.
You PK act as Jan, act as yourself, that works far better OOC.
And you should remember that Ansehelm is the complete opposite of Jan.

And I do think that OOC we need to work on something to divide the difference between things again.
Hell it can happen that the Kaiser has less influence than a Elector. While in real this might be possible, in votings the Kaiser is always right.

There really is very little a Duke (or King) can do to get his Counts in-line besides verbal harranguing.

My point exactly.