KotR cataclysmic event discussion thread

[econ21]

There's been some discussion in the King of the Romans OOC thread about having a cataclysmic event soon that shakes the game up a bit. I think it would be good to have a focussed discussion on this, with the aim of having an OOC vote on Friday to either say yes or no to the idea.

The basic idea, as I understand it, will be to manipulate the game so that we lose a lot of provinces. This could be by pushing taxes too high, cutting garrisons, messing about with AI factions (to the extent possible), maybe getting excommunicated, moving capitals etc. Essentially, it will involve the person in the Chancellor role doing lots of things that make absolutely no sense for a Chancellor to consciously do, but to do these for the OOC reason of making the game more challenging and reinvigorating it.

We will try to weave a plausible story that can explain the chaos - I don't want to go into details here; it will be more fun if it is revealed slowly. I don't really want this thread to go into the story side - just the principle of manipulating the game to make it more unfavourable.

TinCow has offered to take on the Chancellor role for about 10 turns to oversee the event. He is a veteran PBMer and I totally trust his judgement. He will not deliberately try to get any player killed, but he will create major chaos and some avatars probably will die. We will use the recruitable generals to make sure no player is excluded from the game for that reason. Players may have to use the better part of discretion to survive - or you can choose to go out in a blaze of glory.

The sequence I envisage is that we will have 10 turns under Kaiser Siegfried as Chancellor that will build up the story leading to the event. Then 10 turns under TinCow - presumably Chancellor Lothar? - to fully oversee it. So basically, there will be no Chancellor elections for the next 20 turns.

On Friday, I would like us to vote on the question of the following form:

econ21 and TinCow are authorised to engineer a cataclysmic event during the 20 turns after the coming Diet. This may involve temporarily abandoning some parts of the Charter - for example, Emergency Diets may not be able to immediately undo what they are engineering - and implementing things in game that the Chancellor in character has not authorised.

The above question can be amended based on the discussion in this thread, but it is essentially give TinCow and I carte blanche to engineer a cataclysm. Based on the principles I have sketched, you will have to trust us.

I propose we have a simple one player one vote ballot, with a 2/3 majority to pass. I realise that this is a major change from the design of this PBM so if a significant number of players object (ie a third of those who vote), we will not do it.

The reason why I want us to resolve this issue now is because it will take some time to write the stories and make the preparations. Waiting to the next Diet will be too last minute, but we don't want to commit too much to the planning unless we know it is authorised.

[Ferret]

I think this is a great idea as the game has become a bit easy for the Germans at the moment, but are you planning to make it 'major' and mae half of our settlements rebel or not so major and just destroy a lot of bulidings and disband a lot of troops?

[RoadKill]

I'm loving this idea, I would prefer the more choas the better. If I could make a suggestion. Maybe we could use the hotseat program to help the other computer factions to build powerful armies, and use those armies to assult the HRE, or something along the lines of that.

[Stig]

I don't agree to this:

econ21 and TinCow are authorised to engineer a cataclysmic event during the 20 turns after the coming Diet. This may involve temporarily abandoning some parts of the Charter - for example, Emergency Diets may not be able to immediately undo what they are engineering - and implementing things in game that the Chancellor in character has not authorised.

I think we together should agree on what we want to happen and Lothar as Chancellor lets that happen. This should ofcourse be within the thinking world of Lothar (less Outremer is one of them). And at some point Lothar gets impeached.
I am against giving one player all control over the game to turn it into something that is as bad as possible, we together should agree on this, not just one player (or 2 for what it's worth).

[Northnovas]

I think this could be the spark for some. We would basically start a new game but we are working out of the framework that we created the past 10 months in the game.
We would face new challenges but have experienced avatars that would add to the IC development and try to claim what is lost depending how it was loss.
The goal is not to loose an avatar but change the circumstances for an avatar and have new challenges in the game instead of waiting for in game events. The Black Death and the Timurids being the next wave added to the cataclysmic event sounds good to me. This could be interesting.

[Dutch_guy]

I'm all for a civil war! Now that was a lot of fun in the WotS (even being on the losing side of it, heh) and I imagine that with the different houses, it wouldn't even be that hard to make happen.

[Tamur]

I am perfectly comfortable giving econ21 and TinCow a free hand to do as they wish, and actually would much prefer *not* to know what they plan. It would be like reading the end pages of a book first and then going onward sure of the plot. That would without a doubt take most of the enjoyment out of it for me.

If there are those (like Stig) who utterly refuse to have any mystery about it, I do hope those discussions will into a separate thread that I'm not obliged to read. I really want to find out what will happen in the same way that Fritz would so that my IC reactions can be genuine.

And if Fritz dies in a battle with impossible odds, all the better. As long as I get to fight it

[TinCow]

My goal would not be to simply wreck everything, but to create a real storyline IC that ends by creating new and interesting challenges for future years. I would not intentionally get any avatar killed, but the world will certainly become far more hostile than it is now. People who insist on fighting every enemy head-on instead of making strategic withdrawals will be risking their own lives. That will be their choice to make, though. Furthermore, no House (or Outremer) will be prejudiced in the process. All will suffer equally.

The end state will be much weaker than it is now with our enemies much stronger. Many difficult decisions will have to be made in the Diet about how to rebuild and regain what was lost.

I am against giving one player all control over the game to turn it into something that is as bad as possible, we together should agree on this, not just one player (or 2 for what it's worth).

This thread is to make sure we're all in agreement beforehand. We're not going to do this unless people want it. As for requiring group consent before acting, that's fine but you'll have to find someone else to do it. I have ideas about how to implement this in-game as well as plotlines and stories to justify it IC. That said, it will be very, very complex to implement and doing it my way will take forever if I have to check with other people before acting. Furthermore, it will ruin the surprise. Part of the point is to inject some excitement into the game and the 'plot' of the event will be spoiled if I have to get approval for everything.

For example, if I decide I want Swabian city X to revolt, I will probably have to disband some of the garrison, raise the taxes, and move the capital to Outremer for a couple turns. For the purpose of the 'event' none of that would have occurred. IC, the only thing that would have happened would have been that Swabian city X revolted for the reason I give IC. You will simply have to ignore whatever OOC actions I am taking and concentrate on the storyline that I put over it. The results are the important part, not the in-game methods I use to achieve them.

If you are concerned about my ability to successfully implement this in-game, ask econ21 about what I did with Appolonia in WOTS. I assure you that I can get it done in a logical manner without simply wrecking the Empire. I would also provide several stories to advance the 'event' plotline so that there is background info on why and how these things are happening.

Maybe we could use the hotseat program to help the other computer factions to build powerful armies, and use those armies to assult the HRE, or something along the lines of that.

Can this be enabled on the savegame without any problems? If I could control everything the AI factions do for 10 turns, I could do wondrous things with the game.

[Ferret]

I am definately for the 'disaster' in that case, but I think it would be good if it only afected mainland Europe and not Outremer so that when the people over here hear about it we can sail some men back to help cope with the 'disaster'. Btw how would a civil war work becuase that could also be very interesting

[Tamur]

I don't think we have an IC rationale for a civil war quite right now, and I don't think that's what is planned. However, we did that at the end of WotS and it was tremendous fun. Basically two sides arose, one loyal to the Senate (sort of), the other loyal to the Consul that Lucjan was playing at the time. econ21 GM's battles between the two sides via PMs, images, and "real" board battle mechanics. In all my years of TW, that was without doubt the most memorable series of battles ever.

But again, not sure we should go that route here. There are plenty of external forces that can be brought in.

[gibsonsg91921]

I got something up my sleeve...

[Stig]

Can this be enabled on the savegame without any problems? If I could control everything the AI factions do for 10 turns, I could do wondrous things with the game.

No

Going the read what's left of your post now

[GeneralHankerchief]

Having PBM'd with these two loonies for well over a year now (wow! Has is been that long since WotS started) I trust their judgement completely. econ, TinCow: Act like a two-year-old playing with toys.

[Stig]

As to city revolts, I think they most be done realistically, not artifically (no moving capital). There are enough cities that can easely rebel (Hamburg, Stettin, Marseille, Milan, Bologna, Venice, Budapest, etc etc).

Also I think we shouldn't disband too many armies. Electors should get their own little armies with which they decide to protect something they call theirs (read further down). Armies should simply be split up.


Steps I would take:
1320: Massive rebellion in the Reichs Armies, some cities lose garrisons, other get disbanded. Only the crack troops of the HA stay loyal to us, and only those Armies with commanders with authority and a great name (think of Hans or Arnold, or even Ansehelm (he conquered Moscow)) remain fully intact. FH, or someone else, will give out a little mod that TinCow will use for 2 turns. This will make sure many more rebel armies spawn (this can be easely done by changing a number).
1322: The rebellions continue and the Diet begins to talk. Because we foolishly agreed on an CA we cannot impeach Lothar, but we do call on a Emergency Session at the end of this year (more a less official one) in which 2 main sides (I already see people as Lothar, Ansehelm, Helmut and some others grouping together, as they share similiar views) form and argue with eachother, this only results in more chaos. We decide to be ruthless to the normal people the plebs, which results in even more chaos and rebellion.
1324: The Chancellor loses control of the armies (well IC he does, OOC he doesn't). Noblemen start to use their army for what they think works best, Dieter Bresch for example could start attacking the Turks (as he wanted to) against the Charter.
1326: Things keep going worse and worse more cities rebel (hopefully) and quickly armies are formed from those armies that are still left. The Kaiser is still in Byzantium, because his wife doesn't want him to go back, and because the road is blocked by Hungarians. The armies proof not-capable of defending the Reichs borders and those electors that are still of reason decide to retreat to a Heartland Reich (hopefully 5 cities close to eachother won't rebel) and defend that. While others have small armies or loose bands and they wander around a city they claimed as theirs.
1328: It continues electors keep arguing and nothing gets done without proper leadership. Some advocate a independence of the Outremer as a Crusader State, some want to give it up as they don't like it. Others want to go out to fight and others want to keep what they have now. At the end of the year Kaiser Siegfried returns to Rome ... or Frankfurt, or whatever, and he imprisons Lothar claiming he is responsible for all this (Lothar gets released for lack of evidence later on) and he tries to bring some order back into the Reich by starting recruiting armies again.

[gibsonsg91921]

yeah, but ur missing something...

[Stig]

yeah, but ur missing something...

Which is?
Normally with this we would easely lose half the provinces but keep our avatars alive (as I think they should be, otherwise we would end up with loads of players without avatars, not a good thing).

[OverKnight]

Generally, I support something to shake the game up. I think it's been to long since we felt "threatened", at least since Scotland-gate, and the PBM could use a shot in the arm.

However, I don't want to know details. I don't want to know exactly how the house of cards I've helped build up will be destroyed by the "Chaos Toddler" about to be unleashed. Too painful.

[econ21]

What is basically being proposed here is that TinCow act as a Games Master, kind of like a Dungeon Master for those of you familiar with Dungeons and Dragons. He will use the console and various in-game manipulations to mix things up. I will help with the lead up and act as an agency of restraint in case things get too hairy for people.

The Apollonia event in Will of the Senate that TC referred to was an instance of this kind of thing. We had passed a controversial law mandating an expedition from Italy to Apollonia, a city controlled by Greece. TC was the Consul (read Chancellor) and was opposed to the expedition for in character reasons, so he decided to obey the will of the Senate to the letter only. He despatched a very modest expedition which my avatar commanded. Initially, we thought it would be like marching into the lions' den, as the Greeks had multiple stacks wandering around. Unfortunately, RTWs strategic AI being what it was, it was more like marching into a lions' den where the lions are all tame, well fed and very sleepy. So what TC did was use the console to manipulate a large Greek army into attacking my modest garrison, giving me the fight of a lifetime.

The cool thing about this episode is that I believe no one apart from TC and I knew what he had done to manipulate the game to provide the challenge. We built the tension up around the episode, with TC as Consul organising a relief army to rescue the Apollonia garrions. It was a sort of Gordon of Khartoum episode and one of the more dramatic parts of the PBM. This is the battle report of the final battle of the expedition:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...2&postcount=11

Here, because we are proposing something of much wider significance in the game, we can't manipulate the game without you knowing. But we are asking that you allow us to take care of the details. We can use this thread to discuss possibilities, suggest ideas etc. We will listen and ideally steal the best ideas, but won't publicly commit to a specific plan. On Friday, I will ask you to vote yes or no to something like the proposal in my first post - essentially trust Tincow to sort out the details.

Don't feel compelled to vote yes just because you think other people want this. If you would rather stick with the rules we have been playing under, that is fair enough. It's just that now seems a good time to mix things up and TinCow is well positioned to do that for us.

[Cecil XIX]

Since this is a decidedly out-of-character occurence, any vote wouldn't include influence bonuses right?

As regard to the plan, I'm of the same mind as OverKnight and Tamur. I will also say that too much is certainly better than too little.

[econ21]

Since this is a decidedly out-of-character occurence, any vote wouldn't include influence bonuses right?

Yes. I may be creating a dangerous precedent here but given the wide-ranging ramifications of the proposal, it will be an unweighted vote requiring 2/3 of those voting to pass.

[TevashSzat]

Hmm...I will vote for it.

I personally would like the French cities of Paris/Rheims and maybe Dijon to revolt leaving Scherer alone in Caen and see how long he can hold out. That would be a nice challenge for me I would think:)

For those who want to, I suggest letting them get cut off from the main body of the Reich that is left maybe in a fort or a city and then see if they can hold out until matters stabilize and help comes or if they will die prematurely.

The best potential for chaos, however is if we get excommunicated and the pope calls a crusade on a major city deep inside of Reich. That way, if we lose the city, there will be tons of large armies just waiting to carve the Reich up. Even if we don't lose the city, we will still have to fend off hordes and hordes of enemies.

[TinCow]

Hmm...I will vote for it.

I personally would like the French cities of Paris/Rheims and maybe Dijon to revolt leaving Scherer alone in Caen and see how long he can hold out. That would be a nice challenge for me I would think:)

For those who want to, I suggest letting them get cut off from the main body of the Reich that is left maybe in a fort or a city and then see if they can hold out until matters stabilize and help comes or if they will die prematurely.

The best potential for chaos, however is if we get excommunicated and the pope calls a crusade on a major city deep inside of Reich. That way, if we lose the city, there will be tons of large armies just waiting to carve the Reich up. Even if we don't lose the city, we will still have to fend off hordes and hordes of enemies.

I am highly in favor of settlements being cut-off and isolated from the rest of the Reich, at least for a period of time. Excommunication is a major possibility, but it will depend on which plot we choose to adopt. That's one of the reasons we want to talk about it now: the earlier we know that this will happen, the more time we have to devote to the details and the stories behind it.

Don't worry though, I've got all kinds of devious ideas rolling around in my head. I would probably request that people who don't mind their avatars being put at more risk to tell me so by PM. If you're really looking to find yourself in an interesting position, let me know and I will do what I can to make it interesting. I will also be far more open to players' concerns about movements and actions than a normal Chancellor would. As long as you give me early notice about what you want to do, I will follow your orders pretty specifically, and use DMing (going back to the D&D reference) to make it challenging. Oh, no! Your scout was bribed by the Poles and you marched into an ambush! If your avatar has problems with troop morale, some of his men may desert if they think they will lose the coming battle. If your avatar is immensely charismatic and a known leader, maybe an extra unit of knights will show up to help you just as you are about to be overrun.

[FactionHeir]

I think letting TC and econ run it behind the scenes is a good idea especially since we can still control avatar movement for some extent.

Stig's plan also has some merit and I have no doubts that some of it might end up being incorporated, but I wouldn't like to see the exact course of events being laid out before they happen to everyone, as that breaks the immersion and thus fun.

That said, Hans won't have long to live at that time anyway, so throw anything you like at him.

Also, as a personal suggestion, and you may ignore it, it would be interesting to lose all of Outremer or all except say Antioch. That way, it allows us to form a true crusade again later in game.
Further, if you need help with console, do PM me. move_character specifically can be quite useful and I can also mod the files to allow higher rebellion rates as Stig suggested and even force the AI to build certain buildings for instance or train specific agents.

[Privateerkev]

I love this idea overall. I am entirely in favor of it.

On to some finer points. I don't think we're at civil-war yet. Maybe later but lets just have this as us-versus-world.

As for Outremer, I don't mind if it is shrunk down to one province but have it at least be one province. We do have the "Oliphaunts" coming. :D

I'm up for trusting Econ and TinCow with the details and let them leak em out to us in-game.

As for my avatar, I feel there will be enough danger without asking for more. If I see something interesting in the game develop, I'll pm TC OCC and ask accordingly.

This is all I got for now.

[AussieGiant]

I'm strongly in favour of it.

More importantly and this is mainly directed to Stig, I think you're going to have to take a leap of faith mate.

The idea of anyone other than Econ or TC "knowing" what was going to happen would be like playing D&D and having one of the player characters sitting on the DM's side of the screen reading everything.

If you want to do that then...it wont really work in my view.

[Stig]

I have no idea what D&D is, but I simply don't like the plan of giving something to which I devoted some hours of my life and then letting him do what he wants with it.

[FactionHeir]

You can PM TC during the event and have almost complete control over your avatar's movements, so its not like you will die without having had any input.

[AussieGiant]

I have no idea what D&D is, but I simply don't like the plan of giving something to which I devoted some hours of my life and then letting him do what he wants with it.

I think you're holding on bit too tight Stig

You the player are more important than the avatar you control.

You'll always get a new one at some point.

D&D was a role playing game using a complex set of rules and kids/adults imaginations.

Kind of like this, but face to face and using a gaming system to generate characters and skills. These characters would be controlled by real people. One person would then run the "world" you played in creating stories and advantures for you to act out in.

It was either that or a secret cult brain washing kids and teaching them about the devil...*joke*

[Ituralde]

I am completely in favour of this. I have to stress that from my past experiences there wouldn't be a lot of people I would trust with pulling this through, but TinCow and econ21 are definetly among them. The vote will get a yes for me.

As to the concerns Stig, voiced. I agree with you completely. It's a frightening thing to give the game away and loose all control over it. Like AussieGiant said it really is a leap of faith. It is necessary though, because otherwise an implementation of it would be either impossible or just simply boring.

If every action gets decided OOC, before it is implemented IC in every detail, the OOC discussions will just get tremendous. Votings will bog the game down, as every little piece has to be disected and voted on. Furthermore, while the timeline you suggest would certainly be fun, the specifics of it won't be. Having an argument in the Diet whose outcome is pretty much predetermined looses much of its appeal. Instead of creating excitement it would create boredom, as everyone would just be going through the motions.

For this to be pulled off, I think there is no other way as to giving one player complete control. Otherwise it just won't work and that's what this poll is for.

There's also another thing that has not been touched upon. While TinCow plans to orchestrate this whole thing, I don't think he wants his actions to reflect directly on Lothar. So while the Reich goes to ruins, this will be because of outside influence, not because of an incompetent Chancellor, who would surely be stopped by impeachment. I hope everyone understands the last part and acts accordingly should the event occur. And for those afraid of the consequences, TinCow and econ21 have always shown that they are ready to listen to people, and they will definetly do this during the catastrophe. Trust them, I do!

[Warmaster Horus]

I'm all for it. I also trust TC and econ21 to make as much chaos as possible, while keeping it fun for the players involved.