Pope 'refused meeting with Rice'

[macsen rufus]

Pope 'refused meeting with Rice'

So what's your take?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pope Benedict XVI refused a recent request by US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to discuss the Middle East and Iraq, Vatican sources say.

The Pope refused a request for an audience during the August holidays.

Senior Vatican sources told the BBC the Pope does not normally receive politicians on his annual holiday at the Castelgandolfo residence near Rome.

But one leading Italian newspaper said it was an evident snub by the Vatican towards the Bush administration.

Christian rights

There are at least two reasons why Pope Benedict may have decided peremptorily against a private meeting with Ms Rice.

First, it was Ms Rice who just before the outbreak of the Iraq war in March 2003 made it clear to a special papal envoy sent from Rome, Cardinal Pio Laghi, that the Bush administration was not interested in the views of the late Pope on the immorality of launching its planned military offensive.

Secondly, the US has responded in a manner considered unacceptable at the Vatican to the protection of the rights of Iraqi Christians under the new Iraqi constitution.

The Bush administration has told the Vatican that as coalition forces have not succeeded in securing the whole territory of Iraq, they are unable to protect non-Muslims.

Instead of meeting the Pope, Ms Rice had to make do with a telephone conversation with the Vatican's number two, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, who was visiting the US during August on other business.

"Tit-for-tat" diplomatic snubbery unbecoming of the Catholic Church, or Bush's well-deserved come-uppance for not listening to the previous Holy Father regarding the morality of the Irag invasion? Given that the US has a high proportion of confessed believers, how does this sit with the public, or is it even an issue?

The reason quoted, that the Pope does not meet foreign dignitaries during his vacation sounds a bit like one of those MTW messages-from-your-emissary "I was unable to gain an audience but his servants made it clear the answer would be 'no'."

[CrossLOPER]

Denied and banned. Lol.

[Husar]

Tsk, they should be happy he didn't excommunicate them.

[Kralizec]

Tsk, they should be happy he didn't excommunicate them.

Yeah, then they wouldn't be able to launch a crusade against Iran...

[CrossLOPER]

Yeah, then they wouldn't be able to launch a crusade against Iran...

It's OK, they would have been able to use the chain of fleets to go around through the sea.

[InsaneApache]

Good for (pillau) Rice for telling the pointed hatted one where to ....wait, is this a thread about Alexander Pope and his lost kebeb?

[Geoffrey S]

Is it necessarily a snub? I though Pope Benedict XVI had intended to involve himself less with international politics and focus more explicitely on the religious side of things, somewhat unlike his predecessor; if he doesn't want to be seen as a political leader I can imagine he himself feeling snubbed that he's being treated as such.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I don't think it's going to be a big deal, whatever the reason.

CR

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Is it necessarily a snub? I though Pope Benedict XVI had intended to involve himself less with international politics and focus more explicitely on the religious side of things, somewhat unlike his predecessor; if he doesn't want to be seen as a political leader I can imagine he himself feeling snubbed that he's being treated as such.

Stop injecting rationalism into the discussion.

The goal is to point out that everyone hates the Bush administration because of Iraq.

Now get with the 3675464 program and quit trying to think independently.

[Geoffrey S]

Darnit, that must have been a housemate.

Obviously, what I meant to say is that Bush is satan and eats Iraqi babies...

[Lemur]

Yeah, then they wouldn't be able to launch a crusade against Iran...

Oooh, wait, I know how to handle this one. If you've got a high-level assassin, just take out the Pope and the excommunication is over. Or you can send a diplomat and keep donating 1000 florins until your relationship is Very Good or better, at which point you can request an end to the papal ban.

The death of your faction leader will also fix things, but that's kind of not what we're looking for.

[HoreTore]

Bush is a protestant isn't he? He should be happy the pope isn't burning him...

[King Henry V]

Oooh, wait, I know how to handle this one. If you've got a high-level assassin, just take out the Pope and the excommunication is over. Or you can send a diplomat and keep donating 1000 florins until your relationship is Very Good or better, at which point you can request an end to the papal ban.

The death of your faction leader will also fix things, but that's kind of not what we're looking for.

For ironical reasons, I think Bush should get his high-level Grand Inquisitor (preferably from Castile, do you suppose he could invade Spain just to train the Inkies?) and try the Pope for heresy. Come on, if he tries hard enough he'll even turn him into an atheist, and then it's sizzling time!

[InsaneApache]

Oooh, wait, I know how to handle this one. If you've got a high-level assassin, just take out the Pope and the excommunication is over. Or you can send a diplomat and keep donating 1000 florins until your relationship is Very Good or better, at which point you can request an end to the papal ban.

The death of your faction leader will also fix things, but that's kind of not what we're looking for.

Belive or not, I just tried this about 5 mins ago...I got pwned.

[Ironside]

The death of your faction leader will also fix things, but that's kind of not what we're looking for.

Isn't the pruning of the royal tree a viable tactic? I mean the current one is a bit lacking in stats. But then, he's quite old nowadays, so it might not be worth the effort.

[seireikhaan]

Actually, given Bush's track record, I think he'll just invade and take over Rome, putting a puppet Pope in place. Then, six turns later, Benedict will lead a massive army of Knights and Swiss Guard to take Rome back from the marines patroling the city, and promptly call upon all Christian nations to crusade against America.

[Papewaio]

Given the way that rebel armies seem to have better then the latest tech it would be Cyborg Swiss Guard with built in Swiss Army Plasma Cannon with Swiss Army Knife as a bayonet... and a couple of Mecha.

[Pannonian]

Given the way that rebel armies seem to have better then the latest tech it would be Cyborg Swiss Guard with built in Swiss Army Plasma Cannon with Swiss Army Knife as a bayonet... and a couple of Mecha.

I've always wondered how Petra, when it rebelled, managed to spawn triple gold chevron camel armies with gold weapons and armour.

Sidenote: I originally read the topic title as Pape 'refused meeting with Rice', and wondered why you had a thread about you.

[macsen rufus]

The goal is to point out that everyone hates the Bush administration because of Iraq.

Obviously. After all I couldn't possibly be interested in whether anyone feels any conflict over their spiritual and temporal leaders being at loggerheads, could I?

I am so grateful to Big Brother that my thoughtcrime was discovered before I became aware of it.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Tsk, they should be happy he didn't excommunicate them.

I agree! Good that Rice was refused audience, then finally those of the religious people who voted Bush may start realizing what an anti-Christian he is

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Obviously. After all I couldn't possibly be interested in whether anyone feels any conflict over their spiritual and temporal leaders being at loggerheads, could I?

Of course you can -- and it's even a reasonable point for discussion. But on a forum devoted to games involving an annoying personfication of the Holy Father, you're bound to generate flippancies too.


There are moments of conflict for US Catholics. We see the Holy Father as our spiritual leader and respect his opinions on issues that stand at the nexus of spiritual and physical. Most U.S. Catholics do not expect the elected leadership of our secular government to adhere strictly to the tenets of Catholicism. Many of us vote for political leaders whose philosphy coheres with our own spiritual beliefs, though most do not expect any elected official to adhere to the tenets of Catholicism on all issues at all times. Caesar unto Caesar and all that.

So some sense of tension, yes. A crippling sense of conflict, no.

[macsen rufus]

And I suppose a lot must depend on where one draws the line of Caesar's ambit, too, and the whole Church-State separation question.

Actually, a related but verging slightly OT supplementary - between the extremes of Dawkins on one hand, and Navaros on the other what is the truth of the impact of religious movements on US politics? The extremes seeming to be Dawkins saying that you get nowhere in US politics if you do not "profess faith", specifically Christian, to such a degree it may as well be a theocracy, and Navaros who always portrays the Govt as a Godless bunch of rampaging secularists. They can't both be right in their depiction of the current administration, surely? Of course under Navaros' version, cool relations between the administration and the Holy See would be nothing remarkable. Still, the oft-quoted & denied "God told me to do it" justification just would not have played at all in a truly secularist society. I guess at root I'm as uneasy about theocracy in the west as in the (middle)east. I appreciate that the most vocal Christian community in the US are the evangelicals, who don't arise from the Catholic tradition, and I can't imagine the president telling, say Billy Graham to hop it, or vice versa.

So for some reason I get a gut feeling this little diplomatic dispute is significant, but can't put my finger on why. At the back of my mind there is the infamous "How many divisions does the Pope command?" comment. And of course the Catholic community is (appears to be..) way more diverse than the others I guess, with strong Italian, Irish and Latin components, and probably presents a less monolithic constituency in political terms.

But to be flippant: already one Crusade underway, can't launch another marker til that's finished

[drone]

But to be flippant: already one Crusade underway, can't launch another marker til that's finished

I think the current one is finished, and the king's influence has plummeted due to it's failure. Unrest and disloyalty are rampant throughout the empire.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Bush is a protestant isn't he? He should be happy the pope isn't burning him...

Look a serious comment!

I think this is interesting actually, George W. Bush is a United Methodist, wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Methodist_Church.

Why do I think this is interesting? Mainly because the UMC has is a bit pi-polar. On the one hand is what I recognise as Methodism, at the other is Evangelical Christianity. As a "born again" Christian Bush seems to have chosen a church that can appeal to both religious poles in America.

Dare I say Bush's Religio-political rhetoric is merely another ploy to appeal to what he sees as Idiot America?

[Kralizec]

I think the current one is finished, and the king's influence has plummeted due to it's failure. Unrest and disloyalty are rampant throughout the empire.

I expect the Confederate States will reemerge any moment now...

[FactionHeir]

I can imagine if the Pope excommunicated Bush/America, that there might be another Great Schism, with the US providing its own pope.

[Ayachuco]

I can imagine if the Pope excommunicated Bush/America, that there might be another Great Schism, with the US providing its own pope.

Given the religious history, I would say Bush would forgo with religion and establish another hapless politician/department to handle religious affairs. Or he could say that we're religious, Protestant, Baptist, whatever it is. Whatever we call it and then walk out of the wrong door at the press conference.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I doubt many would follow Bush's pope... Besides the excommunication is per person, not per country. Would be quite awesome if Popey would excommunicate Bush - would be the LMAO of the last 4 centuries