Imperial Diet VI

[econ21]

[OOC] This thread is for players in the King of the Romans PBM to post in character public deliberations in the Imperial Diet. All out of character debate should be conducted in the OOC thread.

Full sessions of the Diet have two main functions: to elect a Chancellor, who manage the Empire, and to pass Edicts or Charter Amendments that will direct the Chancellor.

The Diet will be chaired by the Kaiser, the Prinz or the Diet Speaker.

Edicts need to be formally proposed as follows:

Edict 14.1 This House directs the Chancellor to occupy province X.

where 14.1 refers to the first proposed edict of the eleventh session of the Diet.

Edicts need two seconders (who should explicitly use the word "second" when supporting a motion) before they can be put to the vote. Where edicts conflict, the one with more votes takes precedence.

*****

A young scribe enters the Diet carrying a new volume to transcribe the proceedings. A frazzled Elberhard winks at the young man, as the scribe turns and then staggers out of the Diet chamber, weighed down by the old volume of proceedings.

Elberhard: Right now where we were?

[AussieGiant]

Arnold

Glad you asked Elberhard,

Peering at the last page of notes from the royal scribe

Ahh yes...I believe we are up a £$^£ing creek without a paddle!!

Peter's gone bananas and taken a Prussian Army with him...although apparently that's not disobeying any orders given to him by his Duke.

You've got your head so far up the Kaiser arse you can't see the trees from the wood.

Hans is making a mad dash to intercept Peter with little chance of success...

and...

Arnold takes a look at the current poll results on the vote of "no confidence".

...it seems the Kaiser has gone a rodgered the wrong agenda if things are what they seem.

So...all in all, I'd say is a glorious time to be alive in the Holy Roman Empire.

[Tamur]

*Fritz rises from the slightly empty Franconian bench*

Despite the fact that our house is being torn apart during the current conflict, and if the reports be true about Péter for charging Constantinople...

God bless Péter for having the guts to take on the Byzantines like a man! No matter what happens, his name will live for generations as one who stood up and was counted on the side of justice.

Fritz seats himself and casts a dark glance towards the Swabian bench*

And to those who wish his premature demise... I can only say I hope your wives and lady friends aren't injured as you thrash around in guilty sleep.

[OverKnight]

Matthias squints at Fritz.

Yes, God bless the man who will attack one of our allies without provocation. God bless the man who might cause German to face German in battle. God bless the man who will destroy what little reputation we have left in Europe.

I hope Peter comes to his senses and realizes that war will end Unification, but will cause a legion of other problems to rise. There's better ways to resolve our impasse than with armed revolt.

[Tamur]

*Fritz rises and addresses Matthias, holding a large volume in his hand and waving it about as he speaks. Electors can make out the title - 'On the Byzantines and their lies'*

Matthias, have you read what Alexander Luther has written in his books? It is remarkable what a clear sight the man has. At first I was unsure what he was after, stirring up the people in revolt. But now that I've read his works... well, if I were anything but a noble, I would be by his side in an instant.

I believe Péter has taken his words to heart, and has done what any good Christian would do -- seek out the heart of the beast and destroy it.

I am ordering my scribes to make copies of Luther's works to distribute to anyone who wishes to read them. And I sincerely hope every one of you in this room does.

To sneer at Luther is to risk being on the wrong side of a revolution.

[econ21]

Elberhard: The situation with regard to Franconia's apparent sanctioning of the traitor Peter's army is becoming unbearable.

I call upon the Duke of Franconia to publicly repudiate that army. I ask him to make it clear that it is no longer a Franconian Household Army but a rebel one.

If he does not make that declaration within 24 hours, there will be consequences.

[Stig]

Ansehelm:
If that's no Household Army I give you 24 hours to replace it.
In fact it has gone of the Household Army status the minute it left Franconia, as Household Armies are not meant to do these things.
Ofcourse I do not agree with Peter's actions ... he could have atleast told me about it, so I could have said no and he could have properly deserted. It's the Chancellors responsibility to see to the movement of armies, not mine.

[econ21]

Elberhard: Thank you, Duke Ansehelm. The traitor Peter's army will no longer be referred to as the Prussian Household Army.

In its stead, Duke Ansehelm, I offer you your Teutonic Crusade Army to act as your second Household Army. Is that acceptable to you, my Lord?

[Stig]

Ansehelm:
It needs to be well reinforced, and next to that it needs new and different regiments. Light Cavalry is fine on the plains of Russia but they're no use to me near Thorn, I would prefer to replace them with artillery.

[Privateerkev]

Has anyone considered cutting off funding to Peter's rogue army? If we have now confirmed that the whole army has mutinied, then why are we still paying for it? This might put neighboring settlements at risk to being sacked but why should the Reich keep financing this man's treacherous acts?

OOC: I know this would be hard to do practically but it is a fair thing to bring up IC. Maybe we can claim that Peter needs to do certain things to get enough florins to pay the upkeep of his army. Like stand on trade routes or sack settlements. Or put him in an HRE settlement and just RP that he sacked it. If he doesn't maybe we can have some units leave. Armies like to get paid...

[econ21]

Elberhard: King Jan, I fear the traitor Peter's army is living off the land and its men likely kept in line by the promise of loot from the great Byzantine capital.

Duke Ansehelm, after watching me poor Arnolds in action, I am also becoming persuaded of the virtues of cannon. I will do me best by your request - if you wish to submit a more shopping list, I'll get me boys on it.

The fall of Krakow means that you and Duke Arnold have several Polish armies trapped between you. After you have destroyed the Russians near Thorn, I propose to have the pair of you catch and eliminate all Polish forces in the area. Duke Arnold may prefer to return to Austria, but if he would consent to stay near Krakow for a while, we can put an end to the Polish threat for a generation.

I do have one condition before turning the Teutonic Crusade into a second Franconian Household Army - the traitor Peter von Kastilien can no longer be heir to the Duchy of Franconia. If you appoint an alternative heir, then I will convert the Teutonic Crusade from an Imperial force into a Franconian one. But God forbid anything should happen to you, I cannot permit two further German armies fall under the command of the traitor.

[Stig]

Ansehelm:
Peter is no heir, he's my second in command, if anything happens to me he takes over. And I'm not taking any steps untill I talked to him in person.

[econ21]

Elberhard: Duke, I am confused but it is a simple question: if you were to die, would Peter be Duke of Franconia?

If he would not, everything is fine.

If he would, then I cannot hand over such a significant Imperial resource as the Teutonic Crusade to the House of Franconia.

Given the dubious loyalty of the deserter Tancred and the Lutheran Fritz, I do not insist that you appoint another successor. I rather fear that would be a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire. You may appoint your daughter as your successor, if you like, as you have done in the past.

But I cannot abide the notion of the traitor Peter becoming Duke of Franconia.

[Privateerkev]

Leaving Peter as "heir to be Steward of the Ducal throne" basically endorses his actions. If, God forbid, something happens to you, Peter would be "Steward of Franconia" until my nephew comes of age in a few years. I find your refusal to fire him to be most disturbing.

There are other Franconians to choose. Though, I admit, not many. Tancred has gone missing. I am not eligible while I am appointed as King. That just leaves Count Dieter and Count Fritz. Only Count Fritz is in Franconia at the moment. While I may disagree strongly with his religious views, he has remained loyally by your side through all of this.

*edit*

OOC: in the past, he named the Kaiser's daughter as heir with Peter as Steward until she marries. Now, von Kassel is heir with Peter as Steward until he comes of age.

[FactionHeir]

I do not believe that Fritz would be a much better choice than Peter after his recent statements.

[Warmaster Horus]

I realize my words may not seem the best for Fritz von Kastilien, but perhaps what Péter needs is an "inside man".

[Tamur]

*Fritz goes to the doors and opens them, and keeps them open*

Elberhard, Elberhard! Do you hear that? That is the sound of a populace who are ready for change, and Luther has given them a voice! I find it strange that I am the only one who has made significant mention of the words of Alexander Luther, when the people of the Reich are whipped into a frenzy by them.

When the tide that is rising washes over the Reich, Péter will be viewed as a hero, mark my words. His name is already spoken in whispers in the streets with reverence.

It is time this Diet accepted the fact that the sellout to the Byzantines was a huge mistake, that the Kaiser is playing havoc with the stability of the Reich, and that this cannot go on any longer. Time will not stand still for us.

[Privateerkev]

Then no "steward" for now. My concern is, if Duke Ansehelm dies today, Peter would be legally empowered to run the House of Franconia until the von Kassel lad comes of age. I ask for the Duke to fire Peter from that Steward position. To do otherwise is to endorse his actions in fact if not in words.

[econ21]

Elberhard: I am sorry, King Jan, but I cannot accept Fritz as heir to Franconia either. Have you not heard what he has been preaching outside this very Diet? He is blatantly supporting the traitor Peter's plan to sack Constantinople. This is not a matter of religious views, but of rebellion.

I apologise to the Duke of Franconia for taking such an interest in the internal matter of the Franconian succession. But these are extraordinary times and I cannot surrender one of our only three Imperial armies without being sure it will remain steadfast.

[Privateerkev]

Steward Elberhard and Duke Hans have a point. I was not aware of Count Fritz's public announcements.

Then I believe there should be no "steward" to Franconia for now. Currently there is one, which is Peter. And he is empowered to take over the Duchy if the Duke dies. And Peter is a traitor. He should be fired. Period.

[FactionHeir]

I am afraid that this may not be as simple as it sounds.
According to our charter, unless the Duke names an heir, the nearest male relative is to take the Duchy.
As we, or so I believe, do not permit underage Dukes currently, it would be likely that one of the elder Kastilien were to act as Steward automatically.

However, we also have CA 11.1 which may solve cases in which the legitimacy of a claim can be resolved in the diet. However, for this to set in, we need to clarify and justify the point of legitimacy that would be in question.

Even so, this may be made difficult if Duke Ansehelm were to leave a will or one be forged, as we have seen in recent history...

I am afraid we may need to go through legal pains to truly resolve this matter fully.

[Privateerkev]

Alright, I see this has been confusing people so I will try to straighten this out.

Earlier, Duke Ansehelm sent a message saying this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: This post is https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=362

Meine Herren of the Diet, I hereby wish to make a simple note. From this moment on Gersenda von Kastillien to be my heir. She holds the future of Franconia, note some middle aged nobleman like most of us. Would I die before she marries my brother Peter will act as Steward, as he normally would.

This made the Kaiser's eldest daughter heir. Which means that who she married would be heir. This also made Peter "Steward" until she married. If Ansehelm died before Gersenda married, Peter would be "Steward" in the same way Steward Mandorf was Steward around 200 years ago. Meaning he would legally have all of the power of a Duke except the ability to name an heir.

Recently, the Kaiser's actions led Duke Ansehelm to change his heir:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: This post is https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=594

Furthermore my new heir will be Dieter von Kassel, I'd rather have someone who's father prefered Russians, than someone who should know better.

So, the heir changed but not the Steward. Peter is still Steward and that is the problem. Yes he is not heir, but if Duke Ansehelm dies, then he will be "Steward" of House Franconia. So, I believe that Duke Ansehelm should fire Peter from his job as "Steward". That way, there is still an heir but a traitor won't be legally empowered to rule a whole Duchy until the heir comes of age.

[Stig]

Peter is only steward if I die, which will not happen. Furthermore there is no good alternative, Dieter has never even seen Franconia. How can he rule it?

[Privateerkev]

You could just declare that there is no Steward.

[Stig]

You could just declare that there is no Steward.

Have you heard what Hans said?

[FactionHeir]

King Jan,

I mean no disrespect, but even if there is no Steward but only an heir, there will still automatically be a steward until the heir comes of age. In those years, things may happen.

[Privateerkev]

No disrespect is taken.

Then he can pull both the Steward and the Heir titles. He can always give those titles out later. We have other Houses without declared Heirs and Stewards.

[Stig]

Ansehelm:
Which means that would I die everyone can claim the title, deserters and pious lapdogs.
No I'd rather have a little kid as heir.

[FactionHeir]

I believe that Duke Ansehelm has done all that he can do at this point to prevent Franconia falling into Lutheran or rebel hands.
I would suggest that a meeting be called in the event of his death, which god forbid, to confirm his choice of heir and possibly allow the underage Duke to rule without an acting Steward.

[Privateerkev]

Duke Ansehelm,

If by "pious lapdogs", you mean me, then you can rest easy. I can not legally hold either the position of Steward or Heir. And if I could, I would never accept them.

But if you insist on having an under-aged heir, then you need a Steward. And your choices for Steward do not seem good. I am out of the House, Dieter is out of Franconia, Fritz is unacceptable to Elberhard, Tancred is missing, and Peter is going off to attack Constantinople.

Your better off pulling both titles for now.

If you don't you are basically endorsing Peter's actions. And that is a slap in the face to Duke Hans. We are asking Duke Hans to intercept Peter and fight fellow Germans but you don't even have the balls to fire Peter.