Out of character thread XIV

[OverKnight]

Cool, I wanted to reference some of the past stories concerning Adana. Also I just finished a history of the First Crusade, and the author mentioned how religious artifacts, such as pieces of the True Cross or the Holy Lance, fueled the zeal of the Crusaders. In fact the Holy Lance, or a piece of metal someone promoted as the Holy Lance, was found in Antioch after the Crusaders took the city.

I also got the Iron Bridge name I used in the Battle Report from the same book. It's an actual bridge over the Orontes and survived until 1973.

[econ21]

Oh I have no problem with what the Illuminati and GH did OOC. But I have a huge problem IC.

...I have zero problem with what anyone has done OOC. But if you are going to come onto the OOC thread, and ask all of us to "tread carefully", then I am going to ask you to examine your own avatar's behavior.

I was picking you up on the "People don't have to kill Popes" remark. This is the OOC thread and OOC someone had to. Asking GH to examine his own avatar's behaviour in that specific regard is unfair. He was only doing what I asked him to.

It's a small point, but I know players can get understandably angry if they get the flak for things I set them up to do. IC they have to take it, I am afraid, but OOC we should be nice.

But, why should I give him a pass IC ...

I never asked you to - I said Elberhard hates him IC - but this is the OOC thread.

Thinking a bit more about this, I guess my response to GH's post is don't meta-game. Just role-play your character. If Dietrich wants to run for Chancellor in 1340 that's a great reason for Dietrich to be agitating IC for people not to destroy buildings etc[1]. But OOC, I would just let people play as they wish. Let TinCow worry about keeping the game going.

Even then, I rather agree with GH's "fitting death" comment: I think it would be pretty awesome for this game to end in an AI victory as a result of the cataclysm. Only one PBM I know of ever ended in an AI victory (a Saxon one). I don't want it to end yet and would bet serious money it won't, but if it did end that way, it would be going out with one heck of a bang IMO.



[1]Maybe we are suffering from the closure of the Diet, so that IC stuff that is not specific to one house is getting transferred here? I am not sure what the answer is - a public announcements thread? That would have been suitable for Becker's proclamation and any calls for restraint that Dietrich, Elberhard etc want to make? I don't want to re-open the Diet proper though. I don't think we should be debating back and forth, but issuing various proclamations against each other sounds characterful.

[Dutch_guy]

I think you could exchange it with a player who has a castle. For example, IIRC, Dieter Bresch has Magdeberg but no income. Sounds like a possibility for a mutually beneficial exchange.

Yes it does indeed. However, how would this work ? Were we to arrange something, would TC simply warp me to Magdenburg and Dieter to Constantinople ?

[econ21]

Yes it does indeed. However, how would this work ? Were we to arrange something, TC 'd simply warp me to Magdenburg and Dieter to Constantinople ?

No, I don't think warping would achieve much unless you want to abandon your army. I was just thinking you could ask Dieter to raise some troops for you in Magdeburg - perhaps in return for a token gift of resources. Quite how they would benefit you if you are in Constantinople and he in Magdeburg is indeed a conundrum. Perhaps just hold the city for as long as you can - milk it for its revenue - and then when the enemy closes in, get TC to warp you out? You'd have to consult him about this though, I am just musing.

BTW, you need to keep your eye on the savegame, as Tancred is in perhaps the most precarious position of any avatar.

[TinCow]

I think you are skewing things too far against rebels by making a province give a net 3 if loyal to a Duke and only 1 if rebel. Even when it was 2:1, I thought it was a little unfair - a province does not double in wealth just because the Duke gets a cut (one might say more likely the reverse!).

To get of the current conundrum, why not just say that a city yields 3 income and, if loyal, 2 of them must go to the current Duke? Then to give Hummel a break, say that if a rebel only has a castle, it is regarded as a city minus one income?

Making cities give 3 points rather than 1 also makes them more strategically valuable - 1 militia per city scarcely makes them break even (it may take 6 or more to garrison it).

I'm not arguing this from self-interest, of course, otherwise the Kaiser would be demanding his own cut.

Point taken. Privateerkev pointed out two other errors I made as well: Arnold has 1 more than he should have and Lothar has 1 less than he should have. However, I like the current balance of wealth so I am keeping it. I will take a good look at the city/castle/count/duke income system today and try to reform it in a manner that balances out. However, I will not make any more changes this turn because I do not want to confuse people. Any more adjustments will only take effect next turn: the wealth numbers on the current turn post can be relied upon 100%.

Also, for those asking, wealth you do not spend carries over to the next turn.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm going to take the initiative and post an "Imperial Messenger Service" thread where people can make proclamations and the news will get out quickly.

[TinCow]

Regarding ransoming as a source of revenue:

It will certainly translate into wealth, but not at any fixed ratio. I will take a look at the circumstances of the battle as well as the needs of the invididual avatars and make a decision accordingly. Laying out a specific formula will simply make it harder for me to achieve the balance that I want. I will also probably give small (1 or 2) bonuses for victories over large armies, even without a random. Call it looting the corpses and the baggage train, if you want. I am trying to find a good balance between having too little wealth to build any armies at all, and too much wealth that allows you to stomp all over the AI. If some players find themselves losing far more territory than they should, I will compensate with a few extra bonuses. If some players are doing better than I want them to, I will find some way to penalize them to restore the balance.

I apologize if this seems contrived, but the whole point of the cataclysm was to provide a challenge. If people get too powerful due some random economic rules I created, it will ruin the event.

The only area I will not give bonuses or penalties in is PvP/rebellion conflicts. Players who are attacking and fighting each other will not be adjusted if they are winning or losing. I have tried to give the rebels enough of an initial advantage to give them all a chance of succeeding. However, from the starting point on the playing field will be level. If you are fighting other players, you sink or swim based on your own abilities.

Regarding Tancred von Tyrolia:

I have already given him a safe way out of his situation with his wealth intact. He is in a ridiculously bad spot. Dutch_guy, I will say this now so that there are no misunderstandings: If you stay in Constantinople I will not guarantee that future 'safe' options will allow you to escape with all your wealth. If you think you can hold on there and survive, go for it. However, 'escape' will start costing money. I simply will not allow you to suddenly teleport to Franconia with 30 wealth, since that would ruin the balance of the game. I have already given you 12, which is WAY more than anyone else has, especially a lowly Count. I have also given you a way to escape with all of that money at no risk. Do not expect me to be quite so generous in the future.

[Stuperman]

How is the battle order going to be decided? I mean, are we waiting till everyone has issued orders, then deciding on a take-the-save order or....?

[Stig]

As I said in the Franconian thread:

Edict 13.1:
The Franconian Household Armies are authorized to conquer the city of Antwerp and the city of Krakow from our mutual enemies. On conquest of the mentioned cities, they are immediately given to the House of Franconia, by will of Emperor Siegfried.
Proposed: Kaiser Siegfried
Seconded: Prinz Elberhard, Jan von Hamburg

Krakow is Franconian ... or was

[Dutch_guy]

Regarding Tancred von Tyrolia:

I have already given him a safe way out of his situation with his wealth intact. He is in a ridiculously bad spot. Dutch_guy, I will say this now so that there are no misunderstandings: If you stay in Constantinople I will not guarantee that future 'safe' options will allow you to escape with all your wealth. If you think you can hold on there and survive, go for it. However, 'escape' will start costing money. I simply will not allow you to suddenly teleport to Franconia with 30 wealth, since that would ruin the balance of the game. I have already given you 12, which is WAY more than anyone else has, especially a lowly Count. I have also given you a way to escape with all of that money at no risk. Do not expect me to be quite so generous in the future.

I don't expect you to at all, escaping with all the money I have would be ridiculous. With at least three different enemies in the vicinity, each with at least a stack a years march away.

Option B really is the only way I'm getting out of my predicament alive (as you've judged correctly), as there's absolutely no other way I'm outrunning those scary Hungarian stacks. Having other units slow me down won't work, as any of those enemy stacks would make short work of my force and my avatar.

Also, the wealth I manage to keep during my run to the east will be used when I get back to my homeland.

[OverKnight]

Krakow is imperial, it was promised but never assigned AFAIK. Moot point mostly.

Edmund Becker is in Prague, different city, which is Austrian. Has been since 1100 or so. Austria's second city.

[TinCow]

How is the battle order going to be decided? I mean, are we waiting till everyone has issued orders, then deciding on a take-the-save order or....?

Prior to the end of the time limit, I am specifically telling people by PM when they can fight their battles. During this time I will only let 'non-contentious' battles be fought. Anything that could possibly impact other peoples' decisions (such as anything going on in Swabia) will have to wait until the time limit is up. This is to make sure that all the orders are decided and nothing can be changed. So far, one battle has been fought in Outremer and two more are pending, one in Austria and another in Outremer. The people who are fighting them know who they are and have been told so via PM.

After the time limit is up, I will post in here a list a battles to be fought, plus I will send out PMs to the players. You guys can then take the save in turn like we've been doing for the last several months. If there are battles that MUST be fought in a particular order, I will specifically say that.

-------------

Here is my proposal for altering the Fixed Income system. It will result in a lot more money for everyone, but I think I set the unit prices high enough to compensate. If it turns out to be too much money, I will find other ways to adjust the difficulty. My concern here is achieving a fair balance for everyone. Please let me know what you think (especially econ21).

City - Base Income 3

Castle - Base Income 1

Rebel Capital - +1, regardless of whether it is a City or a Castle. (As a result of this, I will allow rebels to re-consider their choice of Capital, if they have already made it.)

If a loyal Count exists, 1 wealth is diverted from Duke's income from the loyal Count's settlement to the loyal Count.

All provinces produce +1 when their Lord starts the turn inside its borders. If a province has both a Duke and a loyal Count, the loyal Count is the only one who can receive this bonus.

This balance does the following things:
*Gives people incentives to protect their lands.
*Gives Counts who control Castles some benefit, since they currently have almost none.
*Gives rebels the chance to make very wealthy cities. A rebel city capital with the rebel located inside the province can produce 5 wealth per turn. The best anyone else can do is +4.
*Makes loyal Counts drain money from Dukes rather than give them money. Counts who control cities could make far more money (3) by being rebels than by being loyal. This makes sense, since more people are sharing the same resources. Loyalty has to be its own reward, and Dukes will have to actively come up with ways to reward their followers, such as giving them wealth, reinforcements, etc.

Because of these changes, a few avatar 'special abilities' will have to be altered as follows:

Fritz von Kastilien
For the rest of the cataclysm, Stettin will pay you 2 wealth per turn and your Duke 2 wealth per turn, but only when you start your turn in the province. If you start the turn outside the province, you will get 0 wealth and your Duke will get 1 wealth.

Lorenz Zirn
You are a Budding Bureaucrat and Good with Taxes. If you end your turn inside a province you control, you will gain +2 instead of the normal +1.

Lothar Steffen
Deep Pockets means that you produce +1 wealth per turn, no matter where you are or what your circumstances.

[Stig]

Krakow is imperial, it was promised but never assigned AFAIK. Moot point mostly.

From the Edict it was automatically assigned, but as you said, that's beside the point now anyway

[Tamur]

...My concern here is achieving a fair balance for everyone...

Why does everything have to be fair? My parents spent a lot of time teaching me that life isn't fair!



As far as the changes go, that makes better sense to me. Fritz will be happy to contribute his fair share to the cause of Franconia.

[Privateerkev]

TC: Let me see if I have this clear:

1.) Dukes/King get 3 points for every city and 1 point for every castle that is not sieged and has a clear line of communication.

2.) If there is a loyal count of a settlement. That Count will get 3 if it is a city and 1 if it is a castle.

3.) In addition, 1 point will move from the Duke to the Count. Giving a Duke 2 for a city with a loyal count and 4 for the loyal count. This would give a loyal count +5 if he is in the territory.

How am I doing?

As for Krackow/Prague, there seems to be some confusion.

1.) Krackow was in an edict at the last Diet to be taken and gifted to Franconia.

2.) Austria took it and left it. It is legally Franconian.

3.) Ansehelm has stated that he plans to take Prague on the basis that it is Franconian.

4.) But Prague is Austrian. (or was but now it's independent)

[TinCow]

TC: Let me see if I have this clear:

1.) Dukes/King get 3 points for every city and 1 point for every castle that is not sieged and has a clear line of communication.

2.) If there is a loyal count of a settlement. That Count will get 3 if it is a city and 1 if it is a castle.

3.) In addition, 1 point will move from the Duke to the Count. Giving a Duke 2 for a city with a loyal count and 4 for the loyal count. This would give a loyal count +5 if he is in the territory.

How am I doing?

1) Correct
2&3) Wrong. The Count gets 1 if it is a city and 1 if it is a castle. He gets his money by diverting 1 from the Duke's income. It is not additional income. Thus, a city with a loyal Count will generate 1 for the Count and 2 for the Duke. A castle with a loyal Count will generate 1 for the Count and 0 for the Duke.

[Stig]

As for Krackow/Prague, there seems to be some confusion.

1.) Krackow was in an edict at the last Diet to be taken and gifted to Franconia.

2.) Austria took it and left it. It is legally Franconian.

3.) Ansehelm has stated that he plans to take Prague on the basis that it is Franconian.

4.) But Prague is Austrian. (or was but now it's independent)

How about:
Stig is a blithering idiot and mixed them up, bloody Polish cities. Put Warsaw in and I'm gone entirely.

Mind you tho. Becker did have the option to attack Krakow if I'm correct

[Privateerkev]

TC:

Alright,

I like it.

Dukes/King will still get an excess income but they will have more of an incentive to "spread the wealth" to keep the counts loyal.

Stig: Becker had the option to attack Breslau but you don't know that IC. And you definitely don't know what option he picked. TC was just trying to show what options people had.

[Stig]

Becker had the option to attack Breslau but you don't know that IC. And you definitely don't know what option he picked. TC was just trying to show what options people had.

I know, but he had Krakow in as well. Hence why I mixed up Krakow with Prague

[AussieGiant]

Stig,

We are cool now.

Although, if you want to attack Prague it is a "separatist" holding.... :)

Cecil...two dukes gunning for you....so much for being in a quiet part of the neighbourhood.

[FactionHeir]

AG: The IMS was written by GH not Dietrich with some IC added flair. So your commenr is somewhat displaced.

TC: Sounds interesting. Fair for Swabia too which only has 1 Count and 1 Duke and a lot of dry land.

[econ21]

Please let me know what you think (especially econ21).

Sounds good to me.

My only concern now is a self-interested one, as I am a bit confused how the Kaiser and Outremer fit in.

I guess you are assuming that the Kaiser is Lord of Imperial provinces and the King of Outremer is Lord of Outremer provinces? However, the only Imperial province that can provide Elberhard income is Antioch which is also an Outremer province.

Since the King of Outremer is supposed to govern Antioch, I propose he be treated as if he were a Count of that city - so he takes one, Elberhard takes two. The other Outremer provinces, I say we just treat as the King's, and forget about them belonging to Houses (a de facto kind of thing - the Houses are far away and out of communication; by contrast, the Kaiser retook Antioch and is hanging around it with a big army).

So King Jan will also takes one each for being Lord of Aleppo and Acre, unless he appoints a Count for them.

Any objections, TinCow and Privateerkev?

The crusaders could always tear up the Charter and effectively rebel against the Lord (King) of Outremer, but hopefully we are all going to play nice.

The other issue relating to the Kaiser is reconquered provinces (including any provinces conquered by one House from another). For reasons unconnected with revenue during the cataclysm - basically to introduce an element of politicking - I want reconquered provinces to be formally Imperial. Then they can be re-allocated by the Kaiser in the next Diet session (or a Charter Amendment if the Diet wants to remove that power from the Kaiser). So, I am happy for them to be allocated de facto as TinCow sees fit during the cataclysm (presumably with possession being 9/10 of the law), but de jure, they will be Imperial when this thing ends.

[Privateerkev]

The way I see it,

Jan is "Duke" of Outremer. Therefore, he gets 3 for Antioch. He named Elberhard "count" of Antioch. So Elberhard gets 1 and Jan gets 2.

If the issue is money, Jan would probably just gift Elberhard more money. For Jan, it is the principle of the matter. He is King so he is going to stay as "Duke" of Outremer. If the Kaiser takes two from Antioch, he would be saying that Jan should not be King anymore. Which could make for an interesting conversation.

If the Kaiser wants Jan to be King, he needs to let Jan be King.

As for Acre and Aleppo, your right. Jan will try to give em to the other two counts if they want them. TC has already approved of Jan being able to give counties out without regard to house property.

[TinCow]

My only concern now is a self-interested one, as I am a bit confused how the Kaiser and Outremer fit in.

I guess you are assuming that the Kaiser is Lord of Imperial provinces and the King of Outremer is Lord of Outremer provinces? However, the only Imperial province that can provide Elberhard income is Antioch which is also an Outremer province.

Since the King of Outremer is supposed to govern Antioch, I propose he be treated as if he were a Count of that city - so he takes one, Elberhard takes two. The other Outremer provinces, I say we just treat as the King's, and forget about them belonging to Houses (a de facto kind of thing - the Houses are far away and out of communication; by contrast, the Kaiser retook Antioch and is hanging around it with a big army).

So King Jan will also takes one each for being Lord of Aleppo and Acre, unless he appoints a Count for them.

Any objections, TinCow and Privateerkev?

The crusaders could always tear up the Charter and effectively rebel against the Lord (King) of Outremer, but hopefully we are all going to play nice.

If you want Elberhard to be "Duke" for Antioch and Jan to be "loyal Count", that is fine with me, but you will both have to agree to it. If Jan does not agree to it, you can either abide by his wishes (he remains "Duke" and Elberhard is "loyal Count") or simply seize the place for your own. That would be a superficial matter since Elberhard is inside it and has a larger army. Elberhard would then receive all 3 income and he could disperse 1 to Jan if he wanted to, but it would not be required.

The other issue relating to the Kaiser is reconquered provinces (including any provinces conquered by one House from another). For reasons unconnected with revenue during the cataclysm - basically to introduce an element of politicking - I want reconquered provinces to be formally Imperial. Then they can be re-allocated by the Kaiser in the next Diet session (or a Charter Amendment if the Diet wants to remove that power from the Kaiser). So, I am happy for them to be allocated de facto as TinCow sees fit during the cataclysm (presumably with possession being 9/10 of the law), but de jure, they will be Imperial when this thing ends.

Possession is 10/10ths of the law during the cataclysm. I will leave all other matters of ownership to the will of the Diet in 1340.

[Privateerkev]

If you want Elberhard to be "Duke" for Antioch and Jan to be "loyal Count", that is fine with me, but you will both have to agree to it. If Jan does not agree to it, you can either abide by his wishes (he remains "Duke" and Elberhard is "loyal Count") or simply seize the place for your own. That would be a superficial matter since Elberhard is inside it and has a larger army. Elberhard would then receive all 3 income and he could disperse 1 to Jan if he wanted to, but it would not be required.

Jan would not agree. He sees himself as King. If the Kaiser took Antioch by force, Jan would see it as the Kaiser saying he did not have confidence in the King. And Jan would quit since he lost the Kaiser's confidence. It's not the money, it's the principle.

So, if Elberhard seizes Antioch by force, please tell me the moment it happens in-game because it will drastically alter how I play and interact with the Kaiser.

[FactionHeir]

I guess I should start hoping Elberhard survives the cataclysm or Swabia might end up Bavarian and Franconian

[econ21]

If you want Elberhard to be "Duke" for Antioch and Jan to be "loyal Count", that is fine with me, but you will both have to agree to it.

No, what Privateerkev says is fine. I think I missed an earlier nuance when he spoke of Antioch being an Imperial province. It's Imperial in the way that Acre is Swabian: i.e. in my less nuanced translation, it's not. That's fine by me, as that is also the interpretation I've adopted in the playlist - the provinces in Outremer are listed as the provinces in Outremer, not as Imperial ones. I am at least glad the Kaiser can be a Crusader Count of Antioch when he could not be one of Acre - the logic is curious, but I won't debate it for fear of leaving poor Elberhard completely destitute!

I realise now that it will be stretch in 1340 asking people to allow Elberhard to assign recaptured provinces to Houses, so I would necessarily push that too hard. However, I think it would be informative to have a list of provinces that are or have been HRE, and a potted history, so that we can refer to it in 1340when we come to a division of the spoils. I'll post it in character in the messages thread GH created and I will maintain it. It will be in Elberhard's "voice", but the facts should be objective - so please PM me with any corrections.

[Privateerkev]

I am at least glad the Kaiser can be a Crusader Count of Antioch when he could not be one of Acre - the logic is curious, but I won't debate it for fear of leaving poor Elberhard completely destitute!

Simple. Jan burned that part of the Outremer Charter.

a.) The limit that says Crusader Counts can only be granted at Diet sessions is gone for the duration of the cataclysm.

b.) The limit that says that counties have to be given according to house affiliation is gone for the duration of the cataclysm.

c.) The fact that Antioch normally can't have a count is ignored for the duration of the cataclysm.

Therefore, Jan can assign who he wants, where he wants, when he wants.

These have all passed through with the approval of Outremer's department of legal affairs. (TC)

As for why the Kaiser could not be count of Acre, and could be count of Antioch, that is simple. When the question of whether Elberhard was still count of Acre came up, Jan had not set the Charter on fire yet. So it was illegal. Now he has so it is legal for the next 10 turns. So, if Elberhard truly wants Acre, he can have it for the duration of the cataclysm.

It's good to be the King...

[GeneralHankerchief]

...and that's an example of a 10-Chivalry character?

Hi Pot, Kettle here...

[Privateerkev]

...and that's an example of a 10-Chivalry character?

Hi Pot, Kettle here...

Well, saying Jan burned it was for dramatic effect. What really happened was that he used his power as King to enact "emergency powers" for the duration of the "emergency". We're all trashing so many other parts of the Charter that Jan's acts seem minor in comparison.

All he did was give himself the same flexibility that Dukes have in naming bonded-counts. So, he appropriated a Ducal power for the duration of the cataclysm in order to get himself and his men the money they need to survive and protect others. Dassel is quite welcome to sue Jan over it when the Diet gets back into session.

Jan might have 13 chivalry but he does have 2 dread. I use this to give Jan a tiny bit of "moral ambiguity". Compared to what other characters are doing, Jan comes off as a saint.

So have no fear, the Outremer Charter is quite intact and un-burned. Just certain parts are being ignored with the permission of TC. ^_^