Out of character thread XIV

[Stuperman]

How is the battle order going to be decided? I mean, are we waiting till everyone has issued orders, then deciding on a take-the-save order or....?

[Stig]

As I said in the Franconian thread:

Edict 13.1:
The Franconian Household Armies are authorized to conquer the city of Antwerp and the city of Krakow from our mutual enemies. On conquest of the mentioned cities, they are immediately given to the House of Franconia, by will of Emperor Siegfried.
Proposed: Kaiser Siegfried
Seconded: Prinz Elberhard, Jan von Hamburg

Krakow is Franconian ... or was

[OverKnight]

Krakow is imperial, it was promised but never assigned AFAIK. Moot point mostly.

Edmund Becker is in Prague, different city, which is Austrian. Has been since 1100 or so. Austria's second city.

[Stig]

Krakow is imperial, it was promised but never assigned AFAIK. Moot point mostly.

From the Edict it was automatically assigned, but as you said, that's beside the point now anyway

[Tamur]

...My concern here is achieving a fair balance for everyone...

Why does everything have to be fair? My parents spent a lot of time teaching me that life isn't fair!



As far as the changes go, that makes better sense to me. Fritz will be happy to contribute his fair share to the cause of Franconia.

[Privateerkev]

TC: Let me see if I have this clear:

1.) Dukes/King get 3 points for every city and 1 point for every castle that is not sieged and has a clear line of communication.

2.) If there is a loyal count of a settlement. That Count will get 3 if it is a city and 1 if it is a castle.

3.) In addition, 1 point will move from the Duke to the Count. Giving a Duke 2 for a city with a loyal count and 4 for the loyal count. This would give a loyal count +5 if he is in the territory.

How am I doing?

As for Krackow/Prague, there seems to be some confusion.

1.) Krackow was in an edict at the last Diet to be taken and gifted to Franconia.

2.) Austria took it and left it. It is legally Franconian.

3.) Ansehelm has stated that he plans to take Prague on the basis that it is Franconian.

4.) But Prague is Austrian. (or was but now it's independent)

[TinCow]

TC: Let me see if I have this clear:

1.) Dukes/King get 3 points for every city and 1 point for every castle that is not sieged and has a clear line of communication.

2.) If there is a loyal count of a settlement. That Count will get 3 if it is a city and 1 if it is a castle.

3.) In addition, 1 point will move from the Duke to the Count. Giving a Duke 2 for a city with a loyal count and 4 for the loyal count. This would give a loyal count +5 if he is in the territory.

How am I doing?

1) Correct
2&3) Wrong. The Count gets 1 if it is a city and 1 if it is a castle. He gets his money by diverting 1 from the Duke's income. It is not additional income. Thus, a city with a loyal Count will generate 1 for the Count and 2 for the Duke. A castle with a loyal Count will generate 1 for the Count and 0 for the Duke.

[Stig]

As for Krackow/Prague, there seems to be some confusion.

1.) Krackow was in an edict at the last Diet to be taken and gifted to Franconia.

2.) Austria took it and left it. It is legally Franconian.

3.) Ansehelm has stated that he plans to take Prague on the basis that it is Franconian.

4.) But Prague is Austrian. (or was but now it's independent)

How about:
Stig is a blithering idiot and mixed them up, bloody Polish cities. Put Warsaw in and I'm gone entirely.

Mind you tho. Becker did have the option to attack Krakow if I'm correct

[Privateerkev]

TC:

Alright,

I like it.

Dukes/King will still get an excess income but they will have more of an incentive to "spread the wealth" to keep the counts loyal.

Stig: Becker had the option to attack Breslau but you don't know that IC. And you definitely don't know what option he picked. TC was just trying to show what options people had.

[TinCow]

How is the battle order going to be decided? I mean, are we waiting till everyone has issued orders, then deciding on a take-the-save order or....?

Prior to the end of the time limit, I am specifically telling people by PM when they can fight their battles. During this time I will only let 'non-contentious' battles be fought. Anything that could possibly impact other peoples' decisions (such as anything going on in Swabia) will have to wait until the time limit is up. This is to make sure that all the orders are decided and nothing can be changed. So far, one battle has been fought in Outremer and two more are pending, one in Austria and another in Outremer. The people who are fighting them know who they are and have been told so via PM.

After the time limit is up, I will post in here a list a battles to be fought, plus I will send out PMs to the players. You guys can then take the save in turn like we've been doing for the last several months. If there are battles that MUST be fought in a particular order, I will specifically say that.

-------------

Here is my proposal for altering the Fixed Income system. It will result in a lot more money for everyone, but I think I set the unit prices high enough to compensate. If it turns out to be too much money, I will find other ways to adjust the difficulty. My concern here is achieving a fair balance for everyone. Please let me know what you think (especially econ21).

City - Base Income 3

Castle - Base Income 1

Rebel Capital - +1, regardless of whether it is a City or a Castle. (As a result of this, I will allow rebels to re-consider their choice of Capital, if they have already made it.)

If a loyal Count exists, 1 wealth is diverted from Duke's income from the loyal Count's settlement to the loyal Count.

All provinces produce +1 when their Lord starts the turn inside its borders. If a province has both a Duke and a loyal Count, the loyal Count is the only one who can receive this bonus.

This balance does the following things:
*Gives people incentives to protect their lands.
*Gives Counts who control Castles some benefit, since they currently have almost none.
*Gives rebels the chance to make very wealthy cities. A rebel city capital with the rebel located inside the province can produce 5 wealth per turn. The best anyone else can do is +4.
*Makes loyal Counts drain money from Dukes rather than give them money. Counts who control cities could make far more money (3) by being rebels than by being loyal. This makes sense, since more people are sharing the same resources. Loyalty has to be its own reward, and Dukes will have to actively come up with ways to reward their followers, such as giving them wealth, reinforcements, etc.

Because of these changes, a few avatar 'special abilities' will have to be altered as follows:

Fritz von Kastilien
For the rest of the cataclysm, Stettin will pay you 2 wealth per turn and your Duke 2 wealth per turn, but only when you start your turn in the province. If you start the turn outside the province, you will get 0 wealth and your Duke will get 1 wealth.

Lorenz Zirn
You are a Budding Bureaucrat and Good with Taxes. If you end your turn inside a province you control, you will gain +2 instead of the normal +1.

Lothar Steffen
Deep Pockets means that you produce +1 wealth per turn, no matter where you are or what your circumstances.

[econ21]

Please let me know what you think (especially econ21).

Sounds good to me.

My only concern now is a self-interested one, as I am a bit confused how the Kaiser and Outremer fit in.

I guess you are assuming that the Kaiser is Lord of Imperial provinces and the King of Outremer is Lord of Outremer provinces? However, the only Imperial province that can provide Elberhard income is Antioch which is also an Outremer province.

Since the King of Outremer is supposed to govern Antioch, I propose he be treated as if he were a Count of that city - so he takes one, Elberhard takes two. The other Outremer provinces, I say we just treat as the King's, and forget about them belonging to Houses (a de facto kind of thing - the Houses are far away and out of communication; by contrast, the Kaiser retook Antioch and is hanging around it with a big army).

So King Jan will also takes one each for being Lord of Aleppo and Acre, unless he appoints a Count for them.

Any objections, TinCow and Privateerkev?

The crusaders could always tear up the Charter and effectively rebel against the Lord (King) of Outremer, but hopefully we are all going to play nice.

The other issue relating to the Kaiser is reconquered provinces (including any provinces conquered by one House from another). For reasons unconnected with revenue during the cataclysm - basically to introduce an element of politicking - I want reconquered provinces to be formally Imperial. Then they can be re-allocated by the Kaiser in the next Diet session (or a Charter Amendment if the Diet wants to remove that power from the Kaiser). So, I am happy for them to be allocated de facto as TinCow sees fit during the cataclysm (presumably with possession being 9/10 of the law), but de jure, they will be Imperial when this thing ends.

[Privateerkev]

The way I see it,

Jan is "Duke" of Outremer. Therefore, he gets 3 for Antioch. He named Elberhard "count" of Antioch. So Elberhard gets 1 and Jan gets 2.

If the issue is money, Jan would probably just gift Elberhard more money. For Jan, it is the principle of the matter. He is King so he is going to stay as "Duke" of Outremer. If the Kaiser takes two from Antioch, he would be saying that Jan should not be King anymore. Which could make for an interesting conversation.

If the Kaiser wants Jan to be King, he needs to let Jan be King.

As for Acre and Aleppo, your right. Jan will try to give em to the other two counts if they want them. TC has already approved of Jan being able to give counties out without regard to house property.

[TinCow]

My only concern now is a self-interested one, as I am a bit confused how the Kaiser and Outremer fit in.

I guess you are assuming that the Kaiser is Lord of Imperial provinces and the King of Outremer is Lord of Outremer provinces? However, the only Imperial province that can provide Elberhard income is Antioch which is also an Outremer province.

Since the King of Outremer is supposed to govern Antioch, I propose he be treated as if he were a Count of that city - so he takes one, Elberhard takes two. The other Outremer provinces, I say we just treat as the King's, and forget about them belonging to Houses (a de facto kind of thing - the Houses are far away and out of communication; by contrast, the Kaiser retook Antioch and is hanging around it with a big army).

So King Jan will also takes one each for being Lord of Aleppo and Acre, unless he appoints a Count for them.

Any objections, TinCow and Privateerkev?

The crusaders could always tear up the Charter and effectively rebel against the Lord (King) of Outremer, but hopefully we are all going to play nice.

If you want Elberhard to be "Duke" for Antioch and Jan to be "loyal Count", that is fine with me, but you will both have to agree to it. If Jan does not agree to it, you can either abide by his wishes (he remains "Duke" and Elberhard is "loyal Count") or simply seize the place for your own. That would be a superficial matter since Elberhard is inside it and has a larger army. Elberhard would then receive all 3 income and he could disperse 1 to Jan if he wanted to, but it would not be required.

The other issue relating to the Kaiser is reconquered provinces (including any provinces conquered by one House from another). For reasons unconnected with revenue during the cataclysm - basically to introduce an element of politicking - I want reconquered provinces to be formally Imperial. Then they can be re-allocated by the Kaiser in the next Diet session (or a Charter Amendment if the Diet wants to remove that power from the Kaiser). So, I am happy for them to be allocated de facto as TinCow sees fit during the cataclysm (presumably with possession being 9/10 of the law), but de jure, they will be Imperial when this thing ends.

Possession is 10/10ths of the law during the cataclysm. I will leave all other matters of ownership to the will of the Diet in 1340.

[Privateerkev]

If you want Elberhard to be "Duke" for Antioch and Jan to be "loyal Count", that is fine with me, but you will both have to agree to it. If Jan does not agree to it, you can either abide by his wishes (he remains "Duke" and Elberhard is "loyal Count") or simply seize the place for your own. That would be a superficial matter since Elberhard is inside it and has a larger army. Elberhard would then receive all 3 income and he could disperse 1 to Jan if he wanted to, but it would not be required.

Jan would not agree. He sees himself as King. If the Kaiser took Antioch by force, Jan would see it as the Kaiser saying he did not have confidence in the King. And Jan would quit since he lost the Kaiser's confidence. It's not the money, it's the principle.

So, if Elberhard seizes Antioch by force, please tell me the moment it happens in-game because it will drastically alter how I play and interact with the Kaiser.

[FactionHeir]

I guess I should start hoping Elberhard survives the cataclysm or Swabia might end up Bavarian and Franconian

[econ21]

If you want Elberhard to be "Duke" for Antioch and Jan to be "loyal Count", that is fine with me, but you will both have to agree to it.

No, what Privateerkev says is fine. I think I missed an earlier nuance when he spoke of Antioch being an Imperial province. It's Imperial in the way that Acre is Swabian: i.e. in my less nuanced translation, it's not. That's fine by me, as that is also the interpretation I've adopted in the playlist - the provinces in Outremer are listed as the provinces in Outremer, not as Imperial ones. I am at least glad the Kaiser can be a Crusader Count of Antioch when he could not be one of Acre - the logic is curious, but I won't debate it for fear of leaving poor Elberhard completely destitute!

I realise now that it will be stretch in 1340 asking people to allow Elberhard to assign recaptured provinces to Houses, so I would necessarily push that too hard. However, I think it would be informative to have a list of provinces that are or have been HRE, and a potted history, so that we can refer to it in 1340when we come to a division of the spoils. I'll post it in character in the messages thread GH created and I will maintain it. It will be in Elberhard's "voice", but the facts should be objective - so please PM me with any corrections.

[Privateerkev]

I am at least glad the Kaiser can be a Crusader Count of Antioch when he could not be one of Acre - the logic is curious, but I won't debate it for fear of leaving poor Elberhard completely destitute!

Simple. Jan burned that part of the Outremer Charter.

a.) The limit that says Crusader Counts can only be granted at Diet sessions is gone for the duration of the cataclysm.

b.) The limit that says that counties have to be given according to house affiliation is gone for the duration of the cataclysm.

c.) The fact that Antioch normally can't have a count is ignored for the duration of the cataclysm.

Therefore, Jan can assign who he wants, where he wants, when he wants.

These have all passed through with the approval of Outremer's department of legal affairs. (TC)

As for why the Kaiser could not be count of Acre, and could be count of Antioch, that is simple. When the question of whether Elberhard was still count of Acre came up, Jan had not set the Charter on fire yet. So it was illegal. Now he has so it is legal for the next 10 turns. So, if Elberhard truly wants Acre, he can have it for the duration of the cataclysm.

It's good to be the King...

[GeneralHankerchief]

...and that's an example of a 10-Chivalry character?

Hi Pot, Kettle here...